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Which VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect?
- Thread starter Biges
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Hi!
I'd like to ask which 24" *VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect. And don't tell me, they are all the same. They are not
Samsung 245T? Eizo S2431WH?
Thanks
Black crush is built in *VA technology.
It cannot be corrected with calibration.
Nobody will tell you which model has the least problem because they are the same.
If you don't believe that - it's your problem.
I think we may each be assuming different definitions for the term "black crush."
The idea here is that multiple inputs map to the same color, namely black. E.g. RGB (0,0,0) and RGB(1,1,1) may both appear to be the same "shade" of black if there is "black crush."
With calibration, the video card lookup table is modified. The result is that a program that requests RGB(1,1,1) (e.g. Photoshop) may actually cause RGB(5,5,5) to be sent to the display. That's because the video card lookup table first translates RGB(1,1,1) to RGB(5,5,5). The result is that this "shade" of black is clearly brighter, and is thus no longer crushed.
Calibration in most monitors hooked up to a PC almost inevitably involves defining a new video card lookup table. The resulting table ensures that all colors are displayed at the appropriate brightness, even dark ones. Thus, calibration can fix crushed blacks by adjusting the video card lookup table.
Whether and to what degree a given *VA panel is prone to having crushed blacks in an uncalibrated state is another matter entirely, and I don't have the answer there.
The idea here is that multiple inputs map to the same color, namely black. E.g. RGB (0,0,0) and RGB(1,1,1) may both appear to be the same "shade" of black if there is "black crush."
With calibration, the video card lookup table is modified. The result is that a program that requests RGB(1,1,1) (e.g. Photoshop) may actually cause RGB(5,5,5) to be sent to the display. That's because the video card lookup table first translates RGB(1,1,1) to RGB(5,5,5). The result is that this "shade" of black is clearly brighter, and is thus no longer crushed.
Calibration in most monitors hooked up to a PC almost inevitably involves defining a new video card lookup table. The resulting table ensures that all colors are displayed at the appropriate brightness, even dark ones. Thus, calibration can fix crushed blacks by adjusting the video card lookup table.
Whether and to what degree a given *VA panel is prone to having crushed blacks in an uncalibrated state is another matter entirely, and I don't have the answer there.
Uberbob102000
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You can correct it with calibration and some are worse than others.
Hi!
I'd like to ask which 24" *VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect. And don't tell me, they are all the same. They are not
Samsung 245T? Eizo S2431WH?
Thanks
The bad black crush is usually due to poor blacks to begin with, darks being mudded out into greys. Most newer MVAs and wide gamut PVAs manage pretty good black levels.
I'm guessing the black crush being talked about was the static crush from poor calibration, not that related to gamma shift on some off angle.
Common misunderstanding.
Sorry, I cannot dispute the alphabet of monitors because it's the alphabet.
Black crush related to *VA means a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center.
It's a part of color shifting which is a characterizing feature and the worst problem of *VA technology regardless if a given monitor is calibrated or not. Color shifting comes from the technology itself and cannot be treated with calibration.
What you are saying is a normal process for colors/gamma adjustments applicable to any monitor.
But it is not able to fix technology deficiencies: neither TN vertical angle image shifting nor *VA horizontal angle shifting.
More with photo and video illustrations.
Oh. I clearly noticed difference between some MPA and PVA monitors.
Also the coating affects the intensity of perceiving of the effect, at least with some shades of grey and colors.
Never the less, I hope for an answer like "I can compare this two *VA monitors and..."
Also the coating affects the intensity of perceiving of the effect, at least with some shades of grey and colors.
Never the less, I hope for an answer like "I can compare this two *VA monitors and..."
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I've seen very large differences in the amount of black crush between different *VA monitors.
albovin's point is that the viewing angle issue of *VA monitors causes crushed blacks. That may be true. Calibration will, nevertheless, correct crushed blacks at the point directly in from of the viewer. Calibration can't correct the other parts of the monitor. Albovin is saying that you get crushed blacks elsewhere on the screen, because of viewing angle limitations.
The suggestion that all *VA panels are the same is clearly erroneous.
I think the question the OP is asking may be difficult to answer as there are few people who have actually seen more than one modern *VA panel in person. FWIW, the Samsung 245T is pretty nice--my parents have one and I used it quite a bit after calibrating it with a spyder 2.
The suggestion that all *VA panels are the same is clearly erroneous.
I think the question the OP is asking may be difficult to answer as there are few people who have actually seen more than one modern *VA panel in person. FWIW, the Samsung 245T is pretty nice--my parents have one and I used it quite a bit after calibrating it with a spyder 2.
I can say thet HP LP2465 (Samsung S-PVA) has far less noticable black crush then BenQ FP241W (?-MVA).
Because PVA screens are making it into more expensive levels of LCDs, sadly replacing IPS, I believe some manufacturers surely tried to do semething with this.
Because PVA screens are making it into more expensive levels of LCDs, sadly replacing IPS, I believe some manufacturers surely tried to do semething with this.
And my L245WP P-MVA(similar panel to BenQ but made a year later) is far less prone to black mudding than my 2407WFP S-PVA(Same era or later as the HP)... So allot of it has to do with how well the monitor manufacturers handled the panels and the many many revisions of said panel that fixed this or that.
As I heard, the same panel does not have to use the same backlight, so this also comes into account.
vick1000
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Sure, you can "Calibrate" out the black crush effect, but it will only be removed where ever you put the sensor, and everything else gets washed out. Because you have to raise the gamma level so high to get rid of it, you lose the VA "advantage" of low black level. Even then, the sides of the screen will still be somewhat lighter than the center when viewed head on.
The gamma level of a VA display would be the only dicernable difference between panels, at the same levels they all display the same level of crush.
The gamma level of a VA display would be the only dicernable difference between panels, at the same levels they all display the same level of crush.
Exactly. Some people just don't understand that.
probably because in real life its not one tenth as bad as your photos make it out to be. From the way its heralded as this massive problem you'd think the whole screen was washed out to the point of being useless.
Tamlin_WSGF
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I agree. The problem might seem much larger then it is because its not put in a proper user context. Many have *VA screens and love using them. Same goes with TN screens. Still, I can understand the need of informing about the problems. I would rather use a TN screen then a *VA screen for working with color. Even though TN screens have 6-bit with dithering while *VA's are mostly 8-bit. This has to do with the lack of image consistency, which is important while working with colors. You need to be able to trust that the image in front of you is displayed correctly and not warped by the screen itself. TN's have a darkening at vertical view, but thats fairly predictable compared to the *VA's image shifts even at center view:
Here's ToastyX's picture of an S-PVA next to an H-IPS:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031371458&postcount=58
This is unacceptable for any serious work with colors, BUT it doesn't matter that much for other uses. Then it depends more upon the user himself/herself. Some users would benifit from knowing about these things before they buy a screen however. There are those who wouldn't see a difference between a TN and an S-PVA unless directly compared and some even not then. But, there are those who would see the differences anyway and some of the problems with *VA's would appear to them as defects, not as a characteristic feature of a panel tech.
There are many that goes nuts over a dead or stuck subpixel on a 1920x1200 screen. Thats 1 stuck or dead subpixel among 6 912 000 subpixels. Some goes nuts when there is a little brightness uniformity problem like minor backlight bleed or clouding. These are defects on any panel type. Some of the "characteristic features" of the *VA screens would be a defect if they appeared on an *IPS screen.
Lets take the common feature of *VA where left side is brighter then right side:
People at [H] notice it even when they surf [H]hardforum. I've seen many noticing it and wonder if its a defect:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1257216
Color/brightness/gamma shift even at center view is not good either if you are sensitive to it. Yellowing of white at angle is not pretty either (video from CEBIT, second from top shows yellowing and shifts):
http://www.behardware.com/html/news/cat22/page1.html
These are "features" you get with *VA. Even newer models of TN have a more consistent center view without those "features", though they don't have such wide extreme angles. If image consistency doesn't matter, angles doesn't matter and you wish to have an OK center view, why not get a TN? Would save you a lot of money compared to a *VA.
Iiyama E2202WSV (TN) default:
luminance (cd/m2): 301
Black Point (cd/m2): 0.28
Contrast Ratio: 1075:1
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/iiyama_e2202wsv.htm
Dell 2408WFP (S-PVA) default:
luminance (cd/m2): 273
Black Point (cd/m2): 0.23
Contrast Ratio: 1187:1
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_2408wfp.htm
A TN has less input lag, faster response time and are in many cases much cheaper then a *VA. The differences between a *VA and a TN is 8-bits vs. 6-bits + dithering and viewing angles. Many would have problems spotting the 6-bits + dithering on TN's and would actually benifit more from a consistent center view vs. increased extreme angle view of the *VA. Contrast is not that huge difference anymore as you can see from TFTcentral.
So, to put this into context:
Those where the "inherited features" of the *VA would be a problem, is also those who would notice the difference between *VA and TN. Those features would be a problem for them.
Those where the "inherited features" of the *VA wouldn't matter could in many cases save themselves some money and get a TN instead, since chances are that the differences between TN and *VA wouldn't matter either. They might even enjoy the benifits of the TN's for gaming and such with low input lag and faster response time.
None of the panel types are useless (unless for color critical tasks), but its important that people know of their "inherited features" to make an educated purchase.
Like the one I linked to who reacted about left side being brighter then right on a 2707WFP:
or in other words: "its not a defect, just a characteristic. Now I know and am moving on to enjoy my screen!
"farfromhome
Gawd
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Also way overblown. Except when taking a picture with low shutter speed, lag and response time are (subjectively) identical between my TN Samsung 205BW and my VA LG L246WP. I notice no difference playing Oblivion on either screen, and it's my most demanding game. Even objectively with a camera, they're so close as to be within a frame of each other on the lagom.nl response time tests. (Pictures available upon request.) You may counter that there are faster TN's out there, which is true, but not everybody that buys a TN gets one of the models that's good for that, and the lag/response time on a VA is probably plenty good for most people.
There are some people very sensitive to lag/response time who will notice it regardless, but I posit that they in general are a very different group than those who care about the 6-bit vs the 8-bit panel. There is no way for me to "calibrate away" the bad colors on my TN panel, but they came very good out of the box with my VA. Not as good as IPS of course, but less than a quarter of the cost too. And competitive online FPS gamers, who care about it the most, really should stick with a CRT until OLED is more practical; no TN even is as good as them for that.
In terms of saving money: The Soyo 24" is cheaper than most 24" TN panels, albeit it is now subject to a panel lottery and is often TN itself. Many people (including me) got a LG L246WP on closeout for cheaper than any TN 24" is, even on sale. So even that's not as clear cut as you might think.
No,
You are correct. All VA monitors are not the same. It is not a panel quality, it is a calibration quality.
I have found that the monitor that I've owned with the worst dark details before calibration, has the best dark details after (Westinghouse L2410NM).
I would look at the Samsung 245T. At least it has enough "in monitor" controls that you can counteract black crush within the monitor. It uses Samsung's newest S-PVA panel.
For computer use it would be best if you picked up calibration hardware and software though.
Regards,
10e
You are correct. All VA monitors are not the same. It is not a panel quality, it is a calibration quality.
I have found that the monitor that I've owned with the worst dark details before calibration, has the best dark details after (Westinghouse L2410NM).
I would look at the Samsung 245T. At least it has enough "in monitor" controls that you can counteract black crush within the monitor. It uses Samsung's newest S-PVA panel.
For computer use it would be best if you picked up calibration hardware and software though.
Regards,
10e
Hi!
I'd like to ask which 24" *VA monitors has the least "black crush" effect. And don't tell me, they are all the same. They are not
Samsung 245T? Eizo S2431WH?
Thanks
Tamlin_WSGF
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Sorry about that. I planned to include an answer to the OP as well.
The Eizo and the Samsung you mentioned uses the same panel. If you wish to look at the Eizo Flexscans, the SX2461W would be the better alternative regarding black crush. It has 12-bit gamma correction, which should improve the greyscale stepping further.
http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/sx2461w/index.asp
In addition, it has a brightness uniformity compensation which should give you a bit less bright sides if implemented correctly. I haven't seen it myself, but if the features work as advertised, they should be a better alternative to the ones in the OP.
The ultimate *VA would be the CG241W which features hardware calibration (monitor LUT calibration). Here you can calibrate without the common losses one can find when doing a GFX LUT calibration like fewer levels per RGB etc.
http://www.eizo.com/products/graphics/cg241w/index.asp
That sounds like being out of my price range And they have wide gamut, which I don't want.
I definitly should visit the Eizo shop here in city, so I can test some of their monitors myself AFAIK this is the only company here which has this kind of establishment. At least Eizo does not shun Europe
And they have wide gamut, which I don't want.I definitly should visit the Eizo shop here in city, so I can test some of their monitors myself
AFAIK this is the only company here which has this kind of establishment. At least Eizo does not shun Europe Tamlin_WSGF
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That sound like being out of my price range
I definitly should visit the Eizo shop here in city, so I can test some of their monitors myself
A price premium, but for many its worth investing a bit on a screen since they usually change the screen last.
I think its better to see for yourself as well if you have the oportunity. Make sure you have found a test picture online which contains much black level detail, since its often hard to check for such in stores. Have one on a USB stick as well, then you'll be safe. Better to examine this now then later.
A price premium, but for many its worth investing a bit on a screen since they usually change the screen last.
I think its better to see for yourself as well if you have the oportunity. Make sure you have found a test picture online which contains much black level detail, since its often hard to check for such in stores. Have one on a USB stick as well, then you'll be safe. Better to examine this now then later.
Good point
Let them show me how good Eizo monitora are! When they flushed IPS in favour of PVA.(cf)Eclipse
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that's because the LG is one of the fastest, if not THE fastest 24" *VA panel around in terms of input lag
For those who likes to chew this BS chewing gum of "counteracting black crush on *VA": print this photo, stick it on the wall in front of you and from now on look at it every time before posting BS to mislead inexperienced people.
Tamlin_WSGF
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This image shows the color shifts, but not black crush nessesarily. The CG241W should be more then capable of getting full 0-255 greyscale. Since its S-PVA it still will have image shifts though, so thats to be expected. You can create the same effect on any screen by just adjusting the gamma slider (in your GFX control panel), without that being a proof that you previously didn't have full greyscale range. It would seem like black level detail appear and you had a black crush, but if you pull up a full greyscale map, you'll notice that you already have 0-255 shades.
Thank you for the image though. I've read about the CG241W both being claimed not to have shifts, having minor shifts and having same shifts as all S-PVA. Haven't had chance myself yet to see the brightness uniformity compensation in action. Seems like they have managed to reduce the excessive bright left side that plagued the other Eizo models, though its hard to be sure from that picture alone.
Let's not mistake gamma shift and black crush.
I found the 245T to suffer from gamma shift like any other VA monitor (where dark details show up from the sides, but not the front) but not black crush so much. And with the built in OSD controls the gamma can be suitably adjusted without use of colorimeter (which is of course preferred for better color accuracy).
These are different animals, though under calibration it can be a problem where dark colors are re-calibrated to be darker which can make this a big problem. But not all MVA/PVA suffer from black crush. As Biges said that is his question.
Knowing the monitor that Biges tried (FP241W) I know what he speaks, because I've lost a lot of patience with my FP241VW over the past little while and a lot of it is related to bad black crush on the dark colors that I am unable to calibrate, but with the Westinghouse L2410NM (CMO panel, S-MVA) I was able to calibrate very well and get satisfactory results.
This is not a S-IPS vs. MVA thread. Biges is in the C.R. and does not have direct access to an LCD2490 (which he has mentioned) so all he could get is the LCD2690 right now, so he is reviewing other options.
Regards,
10e
I found the 245T to suffer from gamma shift like any other VA monitor (where dark details show up from the sides, but not the front) but not black crush so much. And with the built in OSD controls the gamma can be suitably adjusted without use of colorimeter (which is of course preferred for better color accuracy).
These are different animals, though under calibration it can be a problem where dark colors are re-calibrated to be darker which can make this a big problem. But not all MVA/PVA suffer from black crush. As Biges said that is his question.
Knowing the monitor that Biges tried (FP241W) I know what he speaks, because I've lost a lot of patience with my FP241VW over the past little while and a lot of it is related to bad black crush on the dark colors that I am unable to calibrate, but with the Westinghouse L2410NM (CMO panel, S-MVA) I was able to calibrate very well and get satisfactory results.
This is not a S-IPS vs. MVA thread. Biges is in the C.R. and does not have direct access to an LCD2490 (which he has mentioned) so all he could get is the LCD2690 right now, so he is reviewing other options.
Regards,
10e
You have an excellent overview
I come co conclusion that 2690 is not suited for me, to get over-saturated colors (in non-colored applications) and humming power source for the price of 1875$? Too expensive. (Yes, LCDs ARE expensive in Europe.)
So either I'll have to finally choose a *VA monitor, or I'll have to wait till maybe new IPS appears here. It I could test even a ... a... TN. Uh. Or I can still consider an option of getting 2490 from the USA, but that would need a seller with 0 dead points guarantee.
Never the less, I think the "black crush" and the "gamma shift" are related, aren't they?
Tamlin_WSGF: "The CG241W should be more then capable of getting full 0-255 greyscale. Since its S-PVA it still will have image shifts though, so thats to be expected."
I see it's hard to accomodate it that grayscale pallets and real images are different things. Lack of practice.
Friends, whatever grayscale it's capable of, it has "a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center" which is black crush in other words.
And will have it for lifetime unless they change the panel technology.
Please pay attention to what vick1000 wrote: "Sure, you can "Calibrate" out the black crush effect, but it will only be removed where ever you put the sensor, and everything else gets washed out. Because you have to raise the gamma level so high to get rid of it, you lose the VA "advantage" of low black level. Even then, the sides of the screen will still be somewhat lighter than the center when viewed head on.
The gamma level of a VA display would be the only dicernable difference between panels, at the same levels they all display the same level of crush"
That's the answer for the question of this thread.
I see it's hard to accomodate it that grayscale pallets and real images are different things. Lack of practice.
Friends, whatever grayscale it's capable of, it has "a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center" which is black crush in other words.
And will have it for lifetime unless they change the panel technology.
Please pay attention to what vick1000 wrote: "Sure, you can "Calibrate" out the black crush effect, but it will only be removed where ever you put the sensor, and everything else gets washed out. Because you have to raise the gamma level so high to get rid of it, you lose the VA "advantage" of low black level. Even then, the sides of the screen will still be somewhat lighter than the center when viewed head on.
The gamma level of a VA display would be the only dicernable difference between panels, at the same levels they all display the same level of crush"
That's the answer for the question of this thread.
To an extent they can be, but the difference is that some monitors that are not VA type panels have poor calibration out of the factory and can show black crush without gamma shift. They can also show color shifting and make dark details appear a different color than gray. This mostly happens with TN panels, but some S-IPS panels need calibration to enhance dark level details.
The BenQ G2400W I have is very good with dark details, and while it has relatively poor viewing angles (though good for a TN) I can use it with various consoles at "full range" without resetting black levels to compensate for crushed blacks.
For example my Dell 2005FPW S-IPS has a bit of dark detail loss which can be improved using nVidia controls. My LCD2690 has excellent dark level details without calibration, and grays are very neutral, but again, this is because it has solid out-of-factory color settings. Calibration does not affect the greys that much, but helps other colors become fabulously close.
The FP241VW is ok with Windows over DVI, but subpar with HDMI, VGA, and component. When calibrated, anything below R,G,B, 8,8,8 starts to disappear. The Westinghouse was the exact opposite, where (after calibration) dark details sprung to life within Windows, and grey was fairly neutral with a slight touch of red.
Additionally, some H-IPS monitors from Planar and Doublesight (same panel without polarizer as 2690) are not as accurate with darks due to different LUT and calibration out of the box.
Many monitors have a problem with dark details simply because they will start having color shift issues when the pixels try to display a gray, and sometimes they will show a blue or red color shift to the darks, and that is another issue.
The LG L246WP is the same panel as the FP241VW, but I didn't find a huge amount of dark detail loss with this monitor, maybe due to better calibration from LG. Although, others on this forum have said this can be a slight problem, but the common complaint with this screen has been "blue cast" in blacks.
I know that LCDs are a king's ransom in Europe. Here in Canada I was able to get the LCD2690 + SVII-KIT (bought separately) for less than 1400.00 before taxes. It's a relative bargain compared to some Eizos which can be much more expensive here. Too bad you are not able to source an LCD2490. It is an excellent monitor as well and well worth the price.
I don't know how easy it would be for you to get the Hazro 24" or 26" monitors. They should be quite good, even though they lack HDCP. Reviews from both sites and users here have been better than average.
Regards,
10e
The BenQ G2400W I have is very good with dark details, and while it has relatively poor viewing angles (though good for a TN) I can use it with various consoles at "full range" without resetting black levels to compensate for crushed blacks.
For example my Dell 2005FPW S-IPS has a bit of dark detail loss which can be improved using nVidia controls. My LCD2690 has excellent dark level details without calibration, and grays are very neutral, but again, this is because it has solid out-of-factory color settings. Calibration does not affect the greys that much, but helps other colors become fabulously close.
The FP241VW is ok with Windows over DVI, but subpar with HDMI, VGA, and component. When calibrated, anything below R,G,B, 8,8,8 starts to disappear. The Westinghouse was the exact opposite, where (after calibration) dark details sprung to life within Windows, and grey was fairly neutral with a slight touch of red.
Additionally, some H-IPS monitors from Planar and Doublesight (same panel without polarizer as 2690) are not as accurate with darks due to different LUT and calibration out of the box.
Many monitors have a problem with dark details simply because they will start having color shift issues when the pixels try to display a gray, and sometimes they will show a blue or red color shift to the darks, and that is another issue.
The LG L246WP is the same panel as the FP241VW, but I didn't find a huge amount of dark detail loss with this monitor, maybe due to better calibration from LG. Although, others on this forum have said this can be a slight problem, but the common complaint with this screen has been "blue cast" in blacks.
I know that LCDs are a king's ransom in Europe. Here in Canada I was able to get the LCD2690 + SVII-KIT (bought separately) for less than 1400.00 before taxes. It's a relative bargain compared to some Eizos which can be much more expensive here. Too bad you are not able to source an LCD2490. It is an excellent monitor as well and well worth the price.
I don't know how easy it would be for you to get the Hazro 24" or 26" monitors. They should be quite good, even though they lack HDCP. Reviews from both sites and users here have been better than average.
Regards,
10e
You have an excellent overview
I come co conclusion that 2690 is not suited for me, to get over-saturated colors (in non-colored applications) and humming power source for the price of 1875$? Too expensive. (Yes, LCDs ARE expensive in Europe.)
So either I'll have to finally choose a *VA monitor, or I'll have to wait till maybe new IPS appears here. It I could test even a ... a... TN. Uh. Or I can still consider an option of getting 2490 from the USA, but that would need a seller with 0 dead points guarantee.
Never the less, I think the "black crush" and the "gamma shift" are related, aren't they?
AFAIK Hazros are not being sold outside UK :-/
Well, I finished writing my diploma thesis (or work or what it is called), so the need for 24" monitor is now lower. Maybe I'll return to my old CRT, tomorrow I have to return borrowed HP LP2465.
Thanks for your help
Well, I finished writing my diploma thesis (or work or what it is called), so the need for 24" monitor is now lower. Maybe I'll return to my old CRT, tomorrow I have to return borrowed HP LP2465.
Thanks for your help
Tamlin_WSGF
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As 10e said: "Let's not mistake gamma shift and black crush.". This is what you are doing now. The greyscale tests are made to check for the tonal response. "Real images" won't give you such control.
That you will have a black crush effect anyway, we agree upon, but thats caused by the gamma shifts and it only appears like black have been crushed. Test any screen you like with a picture containing much black level detail, move the gamma slider up and down in your GFX control panel and you'll see the gamma shift effect on any screen. This is what you see and it looks like black crush, but its not nessesarily so.
If you read again the post from ToastyX when he reviewed a newer S-PVA panel type, you'll see that there have been a change of pixel structure as well, which can explain why the newer types have less crush at center (though they still have gamma shifts that gives a black crush effect):
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031371458&postcount=58
So in conclution to the OP:
You were correct using "" in the title talking about "black crush effect". In some cases its more an effect then actual black crush. Not all the VA's are similar, since they don't all have the same pixel structure. All of them do have gamma shifts which can give impression of black crush anyway, but you can get S-PVA panels which displays a full greyscale without actual black crush. The shifts will still be there though.
From what I've read, seen in person, used, and owned.
I would say the LG 245/6WP has the least of the "black crush effect"
It's VERY subtle compared to the photos that have been thrown around comparing them to SIPS panels.
If you are lazy and are worried about the gamma shift effect, plunk down the change for an H-IPS with polarization.
Those people who find it absolutely ridiculous that there is a bit of gamma shift created "black crush" at moderately high angles need to stop treating PC monitors like TVs :-P
If you want your PC monitor to be like a tv and still be a monitor, get ready to shell out big bucks.
I would say the LG 245/6WP has the least of the "black crush effect"
It's VERY subtle compared to the photos that have been thrown around comparing them to SIPS panels.
If you are lazy and are worried about the gamma shift effect, plunk down the change for an H-IPS with polarization.
Those people who find it absolutely ridiculous that there is a bit of gamma shift created "black crush" at moderately high angles need to stop treating PC monitors like TVs :-P
If you want your PC monitor to be like a tv and still be a monitor, get ready to shell out big bucks.
Thank you.
I don't mistake black crush and gamma shift.
*VA have them both.
It's called COLORSHIFT ON *VA.
When people say about black crush on *VA (as this thread starter does) they mean a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center. Please don't mistake yourself.
Has Biges received the name of the model after several pages of bla-bla-bla?
No.
Can you tell anything meaningfull to him?
No.
It seemed to 10e that a particular monitor... Measurements?? Measurements??
That's why the suggestion was done immediately: don't bother yourself with this question. In this regard *VAs are pretty much the same from no name to Eizo.
And think what options he has to choose from.
Please don't tell me what I should test to see something.
Unlike some participants of this thread, I don't play with words.
I publish my tests. Everything is measured instrumentally, done in comparison with a reference monitor, documented, put on photo and video and presented.
I don't care what 10e says about LCD technology any more after his recent suggestion to use Samsung's controls to get rid of coloshift and
his explanation of *VA main problem (to a confused beginner) as "shift of gray" or so, to confuse the beginner even more.
Hey,
I do my best to inform and educate, and help people around here get the best information possible. If I confuse, it is not my intent, and I apologize. I have done this to help others in getting what they seek.
BUT, I have seen a number of monitors over the past year and looked closely at things like panel quality, color representation, speed/input lag, and response. I can post this list. I did not record everything, because only recently did my camera skills improve to the point of allowing me to represent what I speak of.
I have seen S-IPS panels that lose black details but do not suffer from gamma shift. So the two are not always mutually exclusive. Gamma shift can contribute to black crush, but it is not its raison d'etre.
In regards to VA, the issue is that during calibration, a number of these panels FOOL the calibration hardware because of gamma shift. The image directly under the sensor is darker than the image just to the left or right of it. A monitor that is uncalibrated can show dark details but after calibration can have black crush where grey levels below 10 (for example) can disappear. I have seen this with my FP241VW.
My Westinghouse L2410NM is dead right now, and I doubt I will be able to get my replacement prior to my vacation, but if I can, I will show you what I mean with photos. This monitor does NOT seem to fool my Spyder2Express into "calibrating out" dark details. In fact, the opposite happens, and after calibration, the dark details magically appear and the screen looks much better. On lagom's dark details test, all boxes down to one are resolved visually. This may be due to the fact that it uses a CMO S-MVA panel that does not fool the calibrator...
So this is opposite to the classic generalization that VA always suffers from black crush. It does not ALWAYS do so. Out of the box, the L2410NM suffers black crush because of (likely) poor factory calibration. It still suffers from gamma shift as much as other P/MVA panels, but I'm talking about the image right in front of you.
Now in comparison, my G2400W which obviously suffers from gamma shift on vertical angles, is very good at showing dark details on all connections. This effect may not be as important due to widescreens having far more horizontal width than vertical height. I have said before, widescreen format is the best thing to happen to TNs because of their poor vertical viewing angles. OF course if I lower my head, these dark details disappear. This is why I tilt and position the G2400W to minimize vertical color and gamma shift.
My FP241VW is pathetic in this regard, where only DVI (before calibration) is able to show dark details. All other connections suffer from severe black crush, and strangely enough, STRONG/noisy temporal dithering.
What I am trying to make everyone understand is that black crush can be an effect of poor out of factory tonal calibration, and in some cases it is difficult to calibrate out (with many VA panels), but not all of them.
The reason I said that the Samsung 245T may be able help in this regard because of its gamma controls, is due to the fact that it can be adjusted visually by hand. This can be done with all monitors but only through the video card. This is why I bought the LCD2690Wuxi: I wanted a monitor that can be calibrated and affect all connections, and not just using ICM calibration profiles with gamma data, or turning up digital vibrance on the nVidia video card or color controls on ATI CCC. It can affect all connections, not just PC based DVI/HDMI/VGA. I did not claim to be an expert on this monitor. My claim is that I spent a bit of time playing with it and was satisfied with what I could achieve here. Yes, the altered gamma controls can play with mid tones and achieve a potentially "mid tone" bright image, but it can be done with careful adjustments.
Alternatively, my Dell 2005FPW loses black details (before calibration) but does not suffer from gamma shift. My LG 37LB5D (S-IPS based) TV does not suffer from either, and neither does my LCD2690WuXi. But the LCD2690 is expensive relative to the others, and in addition, would be Biges ONLY option from NEC due to his market.
The reason that I did not suggest the LG L245/6WP is because the panel it is based on is out of production (AUO A-MVA) and it may not be available at all in Czech Republic.
I basically just do my best to answer the question as accurately as I can and try to ensure that people do not confuse one aspect with another. I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm just trying to reinforce my prior point that gamma shift and black crush are not 100% the same.
Regards,
10e
I do my best to inform and educate, and help people around here get the best information possible. If I confuse, it is not my intent, and I apologize. I have done this to help others in getting what they seek.
BUT, I have seen a number of monitors over the past year and looked closely at things like panel quality, color representation, speed/input lag, and response. I can post this list. I did not record everything, because only recently did my camera skills improve to the point of allowing me to represent what I speak of.
I have seen S-IPS panels that lose black details but do not suffer from gamma shift. So the two are not always mutually exclusive. Gamma shift can contribute to black crush, but it is not its raison d'etre.
In regards to VA, the issue is that during calibration, a number of these panels FOOL the calibration hardware because of gamma shift. The image directly under the sensor is darker than the image just to the left or right of it. A monitor that is uncalibrated can show dark details but after calibration can have black crush where grey levels below 10 (for example) can disappear. I have seen this with my FP241VW.
My Westinghouse L2410NM is dead right now, and I doubt I will be able to get my replacement prior to my vacation, but if I can, I will show you what I mean with photos. This monitor does NOT seem to fool my Spyder2Express into "calibrating out" dark details. In fact, the opposite happens, and after calibration, the dark details magically appear and the screen looks much better. On lagom's dark details test, all boxes down to one are resolved visually. This may be due to the fact that it uses a CMO S-MVA panel that does not fool the calibrator...
So this is opposite to the classic generalization that VA always suffers from black crush. It does not ALWAYS do so. Out of the box, the L2410NM suffers black crush because of (likely) poor factory calibration. It still suffers from gamma shift as much as other P/MVA panels, but I'm talking about the image right in front of you.
Now in comparison, my G2400W which obviously suffers from gamma shift on vertical angles, is very good at showing dark details on all connections. This effect may not be as important due to widescreens having far more horizontal width than vertical height. I have said before, widescreen format is the best thing to happen to TNs because of their poor vertical viewing angles. OF course if I lower my head, these dark details disappear. This is why I tilt and position the G2400W to minimize vertical color and gamma shift.
My FP241VW is pathetic in this regard, where only DVI (before calibration) is able to show dark details. All other connections suffer from severe black crush, and strangely enough, STRONG/noisy temporal dithering.
What I am trying to make everyone understand is that black crush can be an effect of poor out of factory tonal calibration, and in some cases it is difficult to calibrate out (with many VA panels), but not all of them.
The reason I said that the Samsung 245T may be able help in this regard because of its gamma controls, is due to the fact that it can be adjusted visually by hand. This can be done with all monitors but only through the video card. This is why I bought the LCD2690Wuxi: I wanted a monitor that can be calibrated and affect all connections, and not just using ICM calibration profiles with gamma data, or turning up digital vibrance on the nVidia video card or color controls on ATI CCC. It can affect all connections, not just PC based DVI/HDMI/VGA. I did not claim to be an expert on this monitor. My claim is that I spent a bit of time playing with it and was satisfied with what I could achieve here. Yes, the altered gamma controls can play with mid tones and achieve a potentially "mid tone" bright image, but it can be done with careful adjustments.
Alternatively, my Dell 2005FPW loses black details (before calibration) but does not suffer from gamma shift. My LG 37LB5D (S-IPS based) TV does not suffer from either, and neither does my LCD2690WuXi. But the LCD2690 is expensive relative to the others, and in addition, would be Biges ONLY option from NEC due to his market.
The reason that I did not suggest the LG L245/6WP is because the panel it is based on is out of production (AUO A-MVA) and it may not be available at all in Czech Republic.
I basically just do my best to answer the question as accurately as I can and try to ensure that people do not confuse one aspect with another. I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm just trying to reinforce my prior point that gamma shift and black crush are not 100% the same.
Regards,
10e
the one eye display 2 helped my benq (sig) tons. it has some pretty bad black crush by default that was corrected pretty well with proper calibration.
i dont think a $50 spyder will do the trick very well though.
i would get something better/ more advanced
i dont think a $50 spyder will do the trick very well though.
i would get something better/ more advanced