Which speaker would YOU choose?

Which <$5000 would you choose if you were me?

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    41
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Pinipig523

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I know this forum is for computer audio.... but for the meantime, I'm gonna be using my computer to output to some good speakers for some good 2-Channel stereo listening. I cant do hometheater 5.1 in my apartment at the moment and it is hard for me to sit down for 3 hours straight and watch a movie since I am in medical school... atleast I can sit down for 3 hours listening to music AND study at the same time. I've tried to study and watch a movie at the same time... it didnt work. :(

I have saved up cash from my summer and part-time jobs and sold all my previous audio equipment (that I bought used and sold for same price... like a sonic savings account :) ). This is all on my own steam. :cool:

So... with that out of the way, I'm about to pull the trigger on a pair of the Martin Logan Vantage. However, I figured it would be cool to see what you guys would pick as your speaker of CHOICE if you had my budget. This is all in good fun, so let's not get too nitpicky and choose one!

Here are the options that I have thought about as viable options for my next computer speaker system:


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Martin Logan Vantage $4995 new ($3900 discounted):
http://www.martinlogan.com/images/vantage_zoom2.jpg

Dali Euphonia MS4 $9000 new ($4150 from Chicago via Audiogon):
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/rv/s/f/1064577713.jpg

Von Schweikert VR4JR $4000 new ($2900 used on audiogon):
http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1135910179.jpg

BW 804N $3500 new ($2600 used on audiogon):
http://gon8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1135818088.jpg

BW 703 $2999 new ($2600 discounted at local dealer, new):
http://www.bwspeakers.com/images/SpeakerModel/images/703/703_main.jpg

JM Labs Electra 927Be 25th Anniversary edition $6000 new ($3100 on audiogon, used):
http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1131729440.jpg

JM Labs Profile 918Be $3999 new at Tweeter:
http://images.cinenow.com/articles//2119/focal--918-460.jpg

Onix Reference 3 $3999 for Bird's Eye Maple new:
http://www.av123.com/images_dynamic/gallery/speakers_38_1.jpg

Paradigm S8 $5500 new (none on audiogon at the moment):
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/paradigm_signature_s8.jpg

I was looking at the Wilson WATT/Puppy system and those are crazy expensive. So are Avantgarde Acoustics... yikes!

Anyway... this is all in good fun, nothing serious. :p

Vote vote!
 
My take on all of this.

I have heard more than half of the speakers I posted with the exception of the Onix Reference 3, VR4jr, JMLabs Electra 927, and the Dali MS4 Euphonia... with proper amplification and good upstream electronics.

From what I heard, I preferred them in this order:
ML Vantage
BW804N
JMLabs Profile 918
BW703
Paradigm S8

I would love to hear the rest of the speakers on my list... especially the Dali MS4 and the VR4jr (based on its SOLID reviews all over the internet and forums).

Also, any opinions and speakers you guys have in mind (ones which are attainable at around the <$5000 mark) are all very much welcome! I would love to go to a dealer and listen to them.

I dont really have much free time to truly listen and do an appropriate A/B/C comparison, so I may have to trust my ears and my gut with this particular speaker adventure.

However, lets treat this as a fun adventure... lets not get too nitpicky. Just pick your favorite.
 
I like real sounding music. I think planars/electrostatics sound like crap. Maybe it's just me.

Klipschorns. Enough said.
 
Wow...just did an online search for Klipschorns...the internet is NOT the place to buy these.

I have found them for as little as $3500 a pair, but everything I see online shows over $3500 EACH.

Anyway, they aren't so practical unless you have a fairly large room with corners to put sepakers in, since they are corner loaded folded horns.

Man...they are awesome though. If I were going to spend thousands on speakers, I wouldn't settle for less. (although I do have a set of B&W speakers from SoundAdvice...I think it was a bad mistake born from laziness at the time.)
 
Ive got a set of B&Ws myself. (804s) They are driven by a traditional amplifier. I love them. In my opinion there arent any better,period. I have a setup in my home theater with Klipsch reference speakers, they're nice too. I think when it comes to full reproduction of sound the B&Ws are true. Ive not had the oportunity to listen to the others though. Those vantage deals are real star-trek lookin. :eek:

By the way those 804s you have pictured are sittin on some SICK lookin carpet! :eek:
That should be destroyed before it hurts somebody.
 
Tekara said:
yeah, I gotta say I love the klipsch references speakers in my home theater, I'm a real convert to the horn tweeter.
Click to expand...

I think the reference series are a little harsh sounding at some points and a miss a little mid-low and midrange impact.

The Klipschorns are the real deal...the 15" folded bass horn couldn't be better, and it compliments the mid horn to give the mid bass impact the rest of the Klipsch line has always been missing..


As for B&W's, the are a little dull and have an overcompensated low bass note, slightly muddy mid bass, but on a nice tube amp they come alive very well. But...then again, almost anything sounds good on a nice tube amp.
 
We have a full klipsch ref set for ht (my parents do since I forced them to get them instead of the Bose Lifestyle system)...

Anyway, while I love klipsch for ht, I dont like them for music. I've heard the KlipschHorn, but they require an extremely large space and arent exactly sleek looking. I'm gonna pass on those for now... I was a member of the klipsch forum for many years (when I started and had the promedia 4.1 back in the day) so I was fully immersed in the klipschhorn being the holy grail culture. :)
 
BBA said:
I like real sounding music. I think planars/electrostatics sound like crap. Maybe it's just me.
Click to expand...

I really dont know where you get this idea from. You havent listened to a good pair of hybrids maybe.
 
BBA said:
As for B&W's, the are a little dull and have an overcompensated low bass note, slightly muddy mid bass, but on a nice tube amp they come alive very well. But...then again, almost anything sounds good on a nice tube amp.
Click to expand...

Also, which BW do you have? If you have one of the lower models, it's not very fair to compare to the Klipschhorn. THere is a large difference in how the 7 series sounds compared to the 8 series... much less the 6 series.
 
personally I'd go with the 804's or the paradigm S8

I'm a long time fan of B&W though.
 
Id probably go with the JM Labs Electra 927Be 25th Anniversary edition.

I hate the thin sound of the paradigms and I dont like the electrostat sound (ML)

B&W I do like but it is most definitely topped by JM Labs

BTW, you are going to be using these for a computer setup? Are you fucking kidding me? What a waste...
If all you want is a good computer sound system get some polk rti-4's. They will not reveal too many of the flaws in your soundcard and will provide great dynamics, impact, and clarity.

These speakers are going to sound horrible when playing crappy sounds from games and mp3's. Also, your soundcard simply can not put out good enough sound to make these speakers play at even half their full potential.

Furthermore, you need to listen to them for youself. No one can tell you what speaker you will like. We all have different ears.

Thats what im going with for my comp system
 
J-M-E said:
BTW, you are going to be using these for a computer setup? What a waste...
If all you want is a good computer sound system get some polk rti-4's. They will not reveal too many of the flaws in your soundcard and will provide great dynamics, impact, and clarity.

Thats what im going with for my comp system
Click to expand...

I've already gone up to the Polk LSi9/LSi7, the Onix Reference 1, Axiom M22, the Sonus Faber Concerto and Concertino... I'm done with bookshelfs as I want to move to a real system. Using computer for now... but as soon as I'm done with college, I'll move into a more dedicated system.

So, its not a waste.
 
J-M-E said:
BTW, you are going to be using these for a computer setup? Are you fucking kidding me? What a waste...
If all you want is a good computer sound system get some polk rti-4's. They will not reveal too many of the flaws in your soundcard and will provide great dynamics, impact, and clarity.

These speakers are going to sound horrible when playing crappy sounds from games and mp3's. Also, your soundcard simply can not put out good enough sound to make these speakers play at even half their full potential.

Furthermore, you need to listen to them for youself. No one can tell you what speaker you will like. We all have different ears.

Thats what im going with for my comp system
Click to expand...

Dude, relax.

As I said, this is just to see what you guys would pick and I already said not to get too nitpicky. If you cant be a little less vulgar, you can get out of this thread.
 
Pinipig523 said:
Dude, relax.

As I said, this is just to see what you guys would pick and I already said not to get too nitpicky. If you cant be a little less vulgar, you can get out of this thread.
Click to expand...

im just trying to emphasize how big of a waste of money this is if the source is going to be your soundcard
 
J-M-E said:
im just trying to emphasize how big of a waste of money this is if the source is going to be your soundcard
Click to expand...

I completely understand.

However, you have to understand that once I finish, I'm getting a dedicated CDP and an outboard DAC to handle the source requirements. I need to take things one step at a time.
 
Pinipig523 said:
Also, which BW do you have? If you have one of the lower models, it's not very fair to compare to the Klipschhorn. THere is a large difference in how the 7 series sounds compared to the 8 series... much less the 6 series.
Click to expand...

I have spent siome time listening to the Logan or Austin...whatever, the ones all the super high dollar sound shops have and the magazines brag about.

The B&W's I have are DM 602, they are a lower line but worked for my purpose. I had a set of $700 Klipsches fist, didn't really care for them, so I ended up with these.

My next speaker will be custom built, I already have most of the drivers and just need the motivation to do it. Well, I am still looking for woofers that somewhat match the mids, then I have to build boxes and crossovers. At one point I experimented with using the mids and tweeters connected with the mid bass driver on the B&W since they are able to be unbridged for bi amp purposes. That was a much improved sound, The mids I have are really smooth with super lively detail and high sensitivity, I am plannign on an array (I have 20 of the mids), definitely on the right track. I just can't afford the sound I really want (I could afford Klipschorns but I don't have corners to load them with), so I have to build the sound I want instead.

One day... will be done.
 
now, i dont pretend to be an expert on this, nor do i pretend that i have heard all or any of those speakers that you listed... but i know what i like, and right now, ive been REALLY impressed with Definitive Technology. look into them, i have a 5.1 system of their lower end stuff and they sound amazing IMO.
 
BBA said:
I have spent siome time listening to the Logan or Austin...whatever, the ones all the super high dollar sound shops have and the magazines brag about.

The B&W's I have are DM 602, they are a lower line but worked for my purpose. I had a set of $700 Klipsches fist, didn't really care for them, so I ended up with these.

One day... will be done.
Click to expand...

You cant compare the DM602 with the Klipschhorn.. of course the klipschhorn kills it. However, the higher end BW have what most consider as the best midrange driver in the world (due to research findings)... the FST driver (the big yellow one that you see on the 804 and 703 speakers I have listed on top). The FST has no surround and is made of kevlar, some other engineering feats accompany it but I forget which.

Anyway, the Vantage are brand new - just a few months old since ML came out with them and they have new technology incorporated into them like the Xstat and microperf technology (smaller holes = larger surface area and the vacuum bonding of the entire panel itself. Also, it is slot ported and has an eq in the back for the bass response. I heard the older Logans and I never really liked them. However, this new generation (the Summits @ $10K and the Vantage @$5k) are really something else. I heard them powered with a Krell CDplayer, Krell Preamp, and a Krell Amp ($10K in electronics) and they both sounded ridiculously awesome. The JMLab 918 were a magnitude less in coherency while the 703 never really grabbed me. They were super clean, but something about hte highs werent right. The 804 are far better than the 703 though.
 
Did I compare the DM602 to Klipschorns?

I don't think I did. I stated that B&W speakers are dull and overcompensated bass and lack midbass. Why do you think my experience is limited to DM602's?
 
Sorry for imagine and slarity nothing beats Electrostic/planar speakers.

The downside is that they require a ton of power since they have very low rating, Usually around 86 db @ 1 watt/1 meter.

The horn loaded compression drivers. Can't deal with them. They always have a bump in the 1k section that ANNOYS the living hell out of me. Unless you put them through an EQ they sound harsher than harsh. Not my cup of tea.

I enjoy the Onix ref 3. Nice sound and mello. imagining is ok especially of axis (unlike the planars/electrostatic speakers).

The paradigm s8 are very nice. Punchy, smooth midrange without getting to in your face and the highs are flat (on an RTA) which is good. I don't like speakers messing with what I am feeding them.
 
Sorry man...Planars just don't have what I like, and judging by your comments on horns, you have never heard the Klipschorn.

BTW: Learn to type please.
 
Pinipig523 said:
I completely understand.

However, you have to understand that once I finish, I'm getting a dedicated CDP and an outboard DAC to handle the source requirements. I need to take things one step at a time.
Click to expand...
So what soundcard and receiver/amplier are you going to be using for these? Taking it one step at a time, that would be my first step.
 
Pinipig523 said:

please fix, thx. --- magnetik

(14) Do not post MATERIAL where you do not have permission to distribute it
electronically or otherwise. This includes posting images directly from a website
(Bandwidth Theft) Images are to be hosted personally or by a third party host.
Click to expand...
If you need hosting e-mail me the files and I'll gladly put them on my server, [email protected]
 
Right now, running a Rotel RC1070 preamp to a Rotel RB1070 amp from the XFi.

A little later, I would like to get my hands on a Rotel RCD-1072 (killer cdp!) and an outboard DAC like the DAC1 by Benchmark.
 
From the looks of your list, I would suggest the B & Ws, being a more versatile speaker. How I understand it, Martin Logan's offerings are a little colored in a way that they are meant to be. The B & W line is more projected at neutrality and offering more on every end. Again, only having heard some B & Ws (not even the particular model you listed), this is a blind judgement. However, through all of the reviews and opinions, this is what I've gathered. Truthfully, it's all up to your ears. I'm guessing you already know this.

So, just my loose opinions. Take it with a grain of salt, you were on of the members that got me interested in HiFi! :D
 
I don't really have any experience with audio but we do have a 7.1 paradigm surround sound setup with a marantz receiver and it kicks some serious ass. So my vote is to paradigm :)
 
so_cal_forever said:
B & W line is more projected at neutrality and offering more on every end.

So, just my loose opinions. Take it with a grain of salt, you were one of the members that got me interested in HiFi! :D
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment! Glad I could help.. hhehe.. I still remember that thread you posted with regards to the Fosgate... good times my friend.

The one thing that gets me about BW and neutrality is that if they were indeed neutral, how come (from my experience), there is a large difference in BW sound throughout their series. Like the 6 series sound completely different from the 7 series, while the 8 series sounds completely different from the 7 series.... which is neutral?

I think that neutrality is better conveyed by the FST driver of the BW (which the 703, 804, 803, 802, 801's have)... the rest of the BW lines, I'll reserve my judgement.

I feel that these new Logans are more neutral than the last generation (Aeon, Ascent, Oddysey)... I listened to the old Logans and these new ones are better to my ears. I didnt like the Ascent, plus I thought they were butt ugly and bulky. These new ones really look sleek and more WAF acceptable (not that I have WAF... maybe GAF :) ).

Then again, who in here (or in the hifi world) actually knows what neutral is supposed to sound like? I dont think I do.
 
The one thing I like about the Vantage is that there is no crossover within the panel itself. There is only 1 crossover, 400hz at the woofer level. After that, the panel takes care of everything else. This means that there is no problem with coherence like some conventional speakers might have in integrating the midrange drivers with the tweeter... where do you put the second crossover cut off?

Also, unlike regular drivers that are magnetically driven only at the apex of the cone (or some tweeters where they magnetically driven at their perimeter only), the electrostat is more evenly driven throughout the panel itself. Also, there is a two way control for the panel whereas there are no drivers with magnets on both sides of the driver - only one way control.

Lastly, I find that since Logans are line-source, it doesnt interact with the room as much as point-source conventional speakers... this means better imaging if properly positioned. Not to mention that I found it easier to vertically position myself when listening to the Logans versus say.. the JM Labs 918 since each part of the electrostat panel produces pretty much the same sound while with conventional speakers, you need to position your ear close in vertical proximity to the tweeter.

I really want to hear the Dali and the Von Schweikert... I've seen some killer setups with those two and I've always drooled over these. It's kind of surreal that I'm actually considering these great speakers. The Von Schweikert is held in very high regard in the hifi world... I really need to get my butt up and find a dealer who has them for demo.

I dont know why I posted this post.... it's like a rant. I'm going to bed. ;)
 
I went speaker listening this weekend and since I have heard most of the speakers in your list, I believe you have left some very good choices out. Now the gear I listened to was through some of the highest end gear you can get (We are talking emmlabs, VTL, and Theta) so you may need to bring in your gear to get the right thought patter about these speakers. I went to Audio Concepts in Houston. Man that is a nice 2 channel audio store.

There are 3 speakers that I think should be here that were missed, especially for 2 channel.

Vandersteen Quatro - Just a very nice all around speaker. Very good transient response, and great room presence. They were in a full size to rather large room for just 2 channel (24x18) with perfect acoustics.

Magneplanar 3.6r - I mean wow, just wow. Talk about losing yourself in the presence of good music. These Maggies are just that, prefect for their use. I think they would be the best bet in an apartment because of their method of audio dispersion. They were as good as the vandersteens in almost every way (except bass kick, but it was there, just totally different sound). These were my favorites after our outing, and just like most speakers in this roundup, they were fabulous. These are probably the cheapest in the round up, but if we want to spend money, the 20.1 will get you well over 5K (closer to 12K)

LINN AKURATE 242
Much closer in audio to a more traditional speaker, this sound is very similar to the paradigm signature S8, but still a bit better in the mid range, but not as good in the lows. It would will in a classical SACD battle, but most other music types would sound more rich on the paradigms.
 
BBA said:
Sorry man...Planars just don't have what I like, and judging by your comments on horns, you have never heard the Klipschorn.

BTW: Learn to type please.
Click to expand...


i have

not my cup of tea.

Again. I use my ear and a RTA to verify. All horn loaded compression drivers have a bump in and around the 1khz region sometimes going as high as 4.5khz. That is the nature of HLCD. Will ALWAYS be the nature of HLCD unless corrected with some ingenious crossovers.
 
Pinipig523 said:
Then again, who in here (or in the hifi world) actually knows what neutral is supposed to sound like? I dont think I do.
Click to expand...


Neutral sounds like standing in a club in front of a real drum set and electric guitar;
Neutral sounds like a real dog barking or bird chipring in front of you when outside.
Neutral sounds like an airplane flying over.
Neutral sounds like a piano playing in front of you.

Thats why I like the Klipschorns. They are neutral.

The next best I have heard are Celestion's...the older ones, like the DL-10's, or even the DL-8's. DL-8's would be perfect computer speakers if any.
 
figgie said:
i have

not my cup of tea.

Again. I use my ear and a RTA to verify. All horn loaded compression drivers have a bump in and around the 1khz region sometimes going as high as 4.5khz. That is the nature of HLCD. Will ALWAYS be the nature of HLCD unless corrected with some ingenious crossovers.
Click to expand...

Nope. Trust me, the horn shape, driver dynamics and crossover design determine all frequency response curves. If you want to argue that, you would have a hard time proving a folded bass horn has a bump in response around 1KHz, or a tweeter crossed over at 4-6 KHz.

But it's ok, your just making an assumption based off personal convictions, everyone does it, no big deal.
 
BBA said:
Neutral sounds like standing in a club in front of a real drum set and electric guitar;
Neutral sounds like a real dog barking or bird chipring in front of you when outside.
Neutral sounds like an airplane flying over.
Neutral sounds like a piano playing in front of you.

Thats why I like the Klipschorns. They are neutral.

The next best I have heard are Celestion's...the older ones, like the DL-10's, or even the DL-8's. DL-8's would be perfect computer speakers if any.
Click to expand...

Frankly, I dont think Klipschorns are supremely neutral. You're kidding yourself if you know what neutral sounds like when you werent even at the studio when the recording was made.
 
The Klipschorns are accurate and dynamic. Once you listen to a good rock recording or a piano solo on a pairof Klipschorns, you don;t even need to close your eyes to imagine the instruments are really right in front of you and exactly where they are supposed to be. And they sound real.

It's almost spooky when you listen to music, someone can knock on your door and you mistake the real sound for part of the music. Listen to pink floyd on them...you really need to know whats in the music or you will find yourself jumping up to look for the door being broken down or the plane that crashed. (In the music)

Thats what I like.

The Celestions are pretty close to that as well, but they shine in instrumental sounds mostly (brass, drums, violin, etc....)

I have come to the conclusion that most people like colored sound to the point they can tell what brand of speaker they are listening to so they can claim it's neutral.

I think you shouldn't be able to tell your listening to speakers...thats what neutral is, sound thats real, not really like sound from a speaker.
 
Pinipig523 said:
The one thing that gets me about BW and neutrality is that if they were indeed neutral, how come (from my experience), there is a large difference in BW sound throughout their series. Like the 6 series sound completely different from the 7 series, while the 8 series sounds completely different from the 7 series.... which is neutral?
Click to expand...

I read an article on the 800 series recently in The Absolute Sound.They talked about Rohacel, the material made for the LF woofers, and how versatile it is. However, this was on their new diamond series loudspeakers, but I can't imagine this being such a different story on the other end. As I understand it, there are a few factors, including the build of the cabinet between models and size of the speaker to the room. Basic principles in the HiFi world I know, but still one of those things we tend to forget!

Any way you go, it looks like you'll be happy. I'll be personally moving on to a set of Swans this year, and will be starting with either the 5.1Ps or the 6.1s and fleshing the system out from there. Hope you end up making a final decision soon!
 
so_cal_forever said:
I read an article on the 800 series recently in The Absolute Sound.They talked about Rohacel, the material made for the LF woofers, and how versatile it is. However, this was on their new diamond series loudspeakers, but I can't imagine this being such a different story on the other end. As I understand it, there are a few factors, including the build of the cabinet between models and size of the speaker to the room. Basic principles in the HiFi world I know, but still one of those things we tend to forget!

Any way you go, it looks like you'll be happy. I'll be personally moving on to a set of Swans this year, and will be starting with either the 5.1Ps or the 6.1s and fleshing the system out from there. Hope you end up making a final decision soon!
Click to expand...

Great great set you are looking at man..... good solid speakers! Also, look at the Rockets on av123... they have ALOT of used ones on sale at their fleamarket that it's easy for you to get a great deal there. I would check it out.

Regarding BW, I think that their top of the line systems are definitely close to neutral as they get. Very very good materials from the woofer assembly, woofer material, the FST (their midrange fixed suspension transducer woofer) to their matrix cabinet assembly... not to mention the midrange and tweeter solid enclosures... and you get one HIGH END speaker. Those 802D and up are insane.

THOSE I would consider very close to (if not as close as possible) neutral... the others, especially those without the FST (805, 704, 705, and down) are not neutral to my ears. So, when people talk about BW and they say they're neutral... I dont think so. They're upper strata speakers definitely are, but the lower lines arent. This is why they sound so different from one line to the next, since if they were neutral - wouldnt they all sound very similar to one another?

Anyway, I got off track again...

So_Cal, make sure to send me a pm once you get your setup (or when you are about to pull the trigger)... I would like to see your setup's pics and hear what you think about your upcoming speakers. :)
 
Alright, listened to the Von Schweikert VR4jr 3 days ago... what a disappointment. No one ever warned me of its "crazy tweeter". For instrumentals, it was perfectly adept at reproducing the music... but I noticed something odd about the ambience. Too much top-end energy, I thought. When I put in some Mariah Carey, wallah! There was sibilance and too much "fake synthesis" of an already airy voice. I loved the bass as the extension went to around 25hz or so (far deeper than the ML Vantage) and its output was very impressive also. The midrange was sweet, but I just did not like the tweeter - it sounded artificial. Definitely not worth the $4000 the guy was charging....

Listened to more BW speakers. I listened to the 804S (Sigs beat out the Nautilus line as the current line), the 803S, the 803D (diamond tweeter beats out the Sigs), and the 703 again. The 703 was outclassed at every turn. No contest in this category.

The 804S was very good throughout the musical presentation but I felt that it had too much UN-NEEDED treble energy. I felt this because it was sibilant with Dave Matthews band (this band is sort of mellow and dark sounding, not exactly your "trebley" band) tracks and became a little distracting at higher volumes (post 85db). I felt that everytime there was sibilance, I would lose the IMAGE.... I felt that the 804S was too anemic with regards to the bass - not a good thing for a $4000 speaker. The 803S was basically the same as the 804S except more bass... at the price of $5500 for the pair (we're reaching my budget limits here). The 803D was very good. It took whatever weakness there was in the 803S and improved on it. THREE bass drivers instead of TWO and a superior DIAMOND tweeter. The guy had the tweeter grille glued onto the little tweeter assembly because they were afraid that customers might poke it in (yes, it's that expensive to replace!). However, at $8000... it's a little over my budget.

I still like the Martin Logan Vantage over any of the speakers I have listened to.

I still have to hear the Dali Euphonia MS4, the Onix Reference 3, and the JM Labs 927.

I'll make my decision soon.
 
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