When will the miner wars be over?

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by icor1031, Jul 9, 2017.

  1. icor1031

    icor1031 [H]ard|Gawd

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    The 1060 price (and other cards too, I'm sure) has gone up significantly! When it's even in stock...

    When are the miner wars going to stop destroying the market?
    (Note: I didn't verify this, it's just that someone told me the coin miners are at it again.)
     
  2. buzzbomb

    buzzbomb Gawd

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    When these prices go down or the difficulty goes up to the point it's not worth it to mine anymore, then the market will be flooded with flogged cards.
     
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  3. Brian_B

    Brian_B Gawd

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    Well last time this happened, it was ASIC cards becoming more powerful than GPUs at hashing that brought sanity back to the GPU market.

    I've heard that the new breed of crypto doesn't really lend itself to ASIC mining, but we will see - maybe it won't be ASIC, but it could be something else that proves to be equally disrupting.

    Or the cyrpto market could crash, that would do it too.
     
  4. Napoleon

    Napoleon Gawd

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    Hopefully the new mining specific GPUs help alleviate it, I want to buy in a month and can't even find any decent used cards, they all got snatched up. My build has no GPU lol, might try to find a 1050ti and use that for a few months hoping the prices drop
    On the 1080-1080ti class used cards. It seems all cards are holding value now

    I'd love to find a used reference 980 haha
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  5. Cali3350

    Cali3350 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Miners hate the idea of mining cards. Most small time miners include the reliability of the cards in their ROI calculations.
     
  6. Napoleon

    Napoleon Gawd

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    miners probably just want the resale value, can't blame someone for wanting to recoup some cost. Basically renting the cards rather than total capital investment. The resale on a mining specific card sounds unlikely as it isn't multi purpose ​
     
  7. Cali3350

    Cali3350 [H]ardness Supreme

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    reliability was supposed to be 'resaleability'. No idea why I wrote reliability.
     
  8. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I think this time around it'll be the switch to proof-of-stake for Ethereum, if the price doesn't crash first. I've read that could happen as early as November.
     
  9. Subzerok11

    Subzerok11 Limp Gawd

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    I want to get a 1060 I see Amazon will get them soon for $329 but they used to be $259 do you think if I wait longer maybe till this fall or Xmas it will go back to $259 ?
     
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  10. wrangler

    wrangler 2[H]4U

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    They are not going to buy the "miner" cards due to no resalability and crappy warranty.
    Something is going to have to be done in drivers or the gpu market IS going to collapse and PC gaming and all of the other sales that go along with it are going to collapse as well.

    No other issue, including console gaming, has the opportunity to really destroy PC gaming like the miner issue.

    Something must be done.
     
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  11. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger Ale, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    Xmas is a long ways off, there is almost no chance the current market shortage or low mining difficulty lasts that long.
     
  12. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It'll last until it's no longer economically viable for miners to purchase those cards. As long as the market hasn't crashed and there's not a significant change in the coins being mined (like the coming Ethereum PoW or PoS switch), then they'll keeping adding to their collections to keep up with the difficulty increases. If there's a new device released (such as something like a GTX 2060 or someone comes out with a working ASIC), and it gets better mining performance than the current popular cards (whether that's raw performance, per watt, or per dollar), then miners will flock to that card and try to unload the current ones.
     
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  13. wrangler

    wrangler 2[H]4U

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    The education must start now that under no circumstances should you knowingly buy a card that has been used for mining.

    There is going to be a ton of them for sale in 9-12 months and they aren't going to be worth a shit.

    People are going to lie to sell them as well.

    I am now going to also prognosticate the collapse of the used GPU market as well. As it should.
     
  14. Angry

    Angry Limp Gawd

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    I doubt it will be nearly as bad as you say.
    In the last bit of gpu shortage, it was the hot running amd cards being bought up and resold when bit coin flipped to asics.

    Most of this round is newer better hardware that already runs lower voltage and produces less heat.

    If used Xeons from the server market that got abused survive just fine, I don't think GPUS wI'll be to far behind.

    I'm looking forward to the flood of used cards to upgrade the systems in my in household.
     
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  15. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardness Supreme

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    Most savvy miners undervolt to save power.

    My 1080ti cards run at 65% TDP, which allows for 90-95% performance. (160-165 watts at 65% TDP vs the 255 watts stock at full voltage.). So the three of my 1080ti close in on 500 watts instead of 765. More important than power savings is much less heat generation in my house and much lower fan speeds.

    Which means I am treating my cards for mining potentially better than you are for your gaming sessions (when you are running your cards at 100% tilt). I have 0 qualm about keeping my cards long term related to reliability. My AMD cards I undervolted by at least 20%. Same thing there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  16. wrangler

    wrangler 2[H]4U

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    The data is out there now and it doesn't support your contention.
    Manufacturers, AIB partners etc. have all acknowledged abuse of the RMA system and the damage done to these cards voltage regulators and fans when used for mining. Your 20% undervolt might be nice to the chip but it doesn't mean shit for the rest of the sub systems.

    The anecdotal testimonial stuff is out there as well. All of the forums have threads and conversations concerning this subject.

    I don't wish you any bad luck but I really hope that through consumer education or frank intervention by manufacturers through drivers, that the days of gobbling up cheap consumer graphics cards at the expense of the gaming community and expecting to turn them used for a significant reduction in your initial investment is hopefully coming to an end.
     
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  17. cybereality

    cybereality 2[H]4U

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    Well, AMD and Nvidia could just make enough cards to go around, right? Supply and demand.
     
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  18. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well here's the math of it. It's foolish to mine with the cards at full power. This is a post I made comparing two of my 1080TI undervolted against a single 1080TI at stock.

    Undervolted on my three 1080TI looks like this on equihash...

    undervolted.PNG


    My friend bought a top of the line 1080TI with a factory overclock of something around ~1752Mhz. (1550Mhz range is stock) ($800)
    He’s letting it run stock speeds which is using >250 watts on that card (with that stock clock he's probably closing in on 300 watts) -- this because he hasn't messed with tuning it yet. He sent me his mining stats this morning.

    His mining stats:

    [​IMG]

    I’m running my two 1080TI cards at 65% TDP – which is using ~160 watts per card – so 320 watts total. Here are my mining stats for the same time period.

    [​IMG]

    Definitely advantageous to tune these 1080TI cards! (mine are at about 66MH/s each - compared to his 69MH/s – and mine under-volted/overclocked, are using far less power and making far less heat for minimal profit loss)

    FWIW, Nice Hash Profitability Calculator lists a 1080TI should mine for 64 MH/s with Lyra2 REv2. (so we are both hitting numbers slightly above expected 1080TI hash rates, but I'm using 1/3 less power - generating far less heat, running my fans lower, and generally babying the card by comparison.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
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  19. thebufenator

    thebufenator Gawd

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    What are you going on about?

    Many noob miners have no idea how to control temps and power and end up burning their cards.

    Other than those types, mining is not hard on cards when done right.

    Still have 7950's mining away from the litecoin days.....
     
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  20. noko

    noko 2[H]4U

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    For my Nano I undervolt, keep PowerTune at default and it goes up to 1000mhz and runs cool. If I didn't do something with it, it would mostly sit and do nothing - meaning it will just depreciate. I doubt it is being overly stressed.

    My 290 PowerTune is currently -10% and voltage also reduced, it is a reference card and the blower is not even remotely at full speed.

    My two 1070's are currently mining but only occasionally since I will game and do other stuff. It is at default clocks/speeds.

    Frankly mining profits has dramatically reduced over the last two weeks, if they keep going down there maybe a flood of used cheap cards coming to the market for anyone interested.
     
  21. viper_0307

    viper_0307 [H]Lite

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    When it becomes more difficult and ROI sucks, and electric bill is through the roof. It's like Pokemon Go, it came and it went.
     
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  22. Motley

    Motley 2[H]4U

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    Pokemom Go has to be the dumbest thing ever! I'm glad its over and the stupidity of people playing it.
     
  23. noko

    noko 2[H]4U

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    there will be another. .
     
  24. RamonGTP

    RamonGTP [H]ardness Supreme

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    When summer is over and the parents still see the electricity bill abnormally high in spite of not having the AC running.
     
  25. AIM9x

    AIM9x n00bie

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    My r9 280x has been crapping out as soon as the first heatwave hit California and I've been just annoyed with my options for replacing it. I can do windows stuff fine and some very low-load gaming, but any game with meaningful load and gdram usage will BSOD me. Even the price of used old-tech cards have either gone up or haven't bothered to go down because there are no viable options in the $150-250 space. 1060s that used to drop near $200 are going for 300 or more. Even used 970s, which should've dropped considerably by now, are still sitting up near $200.

    Maybe I can still get a small sum of $$ for the card since it MIGHT still be fine for mining, but I can't think of a single decent option to replace it because even prices of old tech are being affected.
     
  26. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You mean the same parents who are buying 1,000's of dollars worth of graphics card and the extra hardware needed to run them for their kids?
     
  27. RamonGTP

    RamonGTP [H]ardness Supreme

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    Those are the ones
     
  28. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    All depends on how big the block chain gets to decode. Then you have to factor in how much electricity & the original cost of the card versus the return on your investment. But as complexity increases so do the market prices, but not enough to offset the cost increase in electricity.

    I could technically still use my 7970 to mine and still make a profit on etherium. But I decided against mining. While I don't like the government being intrusive into how we use our money, I'm not so sure about cryptocurrency. While I believe it's not the government's business, the biggest part of crypto-currencies has been used for questionable ethics. (Silkroad, rasomware, etc...)

    But to summarize: The market will crash when the block chain gets so long, it's no longer worth it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  29. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    I have a Sapphire 7970 that runs 1.05 GHz all day long without issue at 40% fans. Memory overclocks well to. But I stuck it in a high airflow CM HAF 912 case which has a side fan blowing straight on it. The thing just keeps going.
     
  30. buttons

    buttons [H]ard|Gawd

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    Data is out there? We speak from experience that contradicts your "data". I have been mining since 2011 with around 30 video cards. I have some bad fans yes, but the actual cards continue to work fine with their remaining fans-- none of them have died. I never went so far to flash custom bioses, but i always kept my temps under 80C and when it wasnt too much hassle i would undervolt too.

    I do feel the pain though, i sold all my cards at huge profit and now i have 3 gaming computers, two of which have no video cards installed. Really regret not buying more geforce 1080s at $439 when i had the chance...
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
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  31. AIM9x

    AIM9x n00bie

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    You are a luckier man than I am. I have mine in a Corsair 550D with plenty of airflow, but after 3 yrs the gpu just decided it didn't want to stay stable anymore. I turned up the fan profile to keep temps lower, but it just doesn't like gaming.
     
  32. icor1031

    icor1031 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I forgot about this thread... wow, 30 posts!

    Anyway, hoping the miners die soon. *grumpy*
     
  33. _l_

    _l_ Limp Gawd

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    I'll only buy New from here on ... no way I'll believe many of the ebay listing details LOL ... every gaming card gets posted "never overclocked" and they are top of the line "you buy them to do overclocking" cards. Others use water cooling and max out the temps then put the cooler back on and say "never overclocked". Bottom line, there's really no way to know, no matter how good a seller looks on ebay unless they are a store
     
  34. Nebell

    Nebell Gawd

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    Every new nvidia card is overclocked. It doesn't matter if you do it manually or not. Overclocking is automatic.
     
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  35. Zedicus

    Zedicus Limp Gawd

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    i would happily buy the mining version of a GPU. and i only run a TINY home miner. thing is they do not exist in actual retail. or the 2 i have seen were actually WAY more expensive compared to a regular GPU.

    btw prices are now headed down and have been for a few days. this might be the normalization that gamers are hoping for. heck even as a miner i want to see the prices go down so that it is a marginally profitable hobby again. when the prices get so high it actually becomes unprofitable or terrible ROI for a single home mining rig.
     
  36. _l_

    _l_ Limp Gawd

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    true, my evga 10 series cards all auto OC'ed to a stable core speed

    Tonight I was wondering how the shortage of gaming cards has impacted motherboard / new PC build sales ?
     
  37. AltTabbins

    AltTabbins Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Eth is dropping and normalizing. There are have been a LOT of new people in the hobby and the prices are dropping. A lot of people got into Eth when it spiked to $400.

    The difference is 100% full tilt for hours at a time vs 100% full tilt 24/7. Typically speaking, people with gaming rigs treat their hardware a lot better than people who rig together mining setups. There are exceptions to both sides but the general consensus was that a lot of people (myself included) didn't want anything to do with used mining cards. I bought a few GPUs after bitcoin went to ASIC and even with me saying I did not want a used mining card in the title and post, I still got endless PMs from people trying to sell 7000 series cards for 1/4 of what they were worth because nobody wanted them.

    Most retail video cards have a 2 year warranty. Pcper was saying in their podcast that most mining-only cards will have a 3 month warranty due to the heavy usage. People will still buy them just because you have to get what you can get, mining card or not. I doubt it will have any affect on the availability or price of GPUs since any GPU that can mine (retail or mining only) will be gone within seconds of being in stock.
     
  38. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    1060 cards have started to quiet-down. Newegg now has 4-5 1060 3 AND 6GB cards back below $300. The 1070 is still in the stratosphere, and who knows how many more weeks that will take. But there are signs of recovery.
     
  39. cybereality

    cybereality 2[H]4U

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    I built a 6x GTX 1060 rig for mining Ethereum and it seems like a bust. I've made $200 so far, but at the current rate I'll only be bringing in $250/month, which barely covers electricity (forget recouping the cost of the rig).

    Since I already spent the money, I'll probably just let it run and see what happens (or maybe switch to another currency if something else pops up) but right now it's not looking profitable.
     
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  40. tacohunter52

    tacohunter52 Gawd

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    Thats what happens when everyone and their brother jumps on the bandwagon. Both the increasing difficulty and, as you've noticed, power consumption need to be factored into the equation when you're deciding whether or not to mine. (High gpu prices and droppimg coin prices don't help the equation either)
     
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