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When will AGP vanish?
- Thread starter lordsegan
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needmorecarnitine
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Probably 2 or 3 years before you cannot buy any new AGP boards
BloodRayne
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Personally I like AGP more than PCI-E...but that's just me. So I would like AGP to stay.
AGP cards will vanish faster than PCI videocards (which are still being produced) for the simple reason that after the introduction of AGP, PCI was still an option on any mainboard with AGP, whereas with the introduction of PCIe, AGP is completely being replaced.Blauman said:
With 1.5-2 years, AGP will have become rare sight on new mainboards. With 3-4 years, it'll have all but 'vanished', i.e., support for it in terms of new AGP cards and mainboards with an AGP slot will be slim to none.
Rogue4mula
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big time WORD to that... nothing pisses me off more than seeing a usb mouse plugged into a ps2 port through that stupid connector when they have open USB portsacascianelli said:
It seems to me that over the next year the latest and greatest chipsets will not have AGP support forcing the MB makers to goto PCIe. Also noting that SLI will become more and more rampant as time goes on. by the end of 2005 there will be no more "new" AGP chipsets and the manufacters will just be churning out older AGP chipsets till mid 2006 when it will be stock only. that's probably when AGP will become UBER rare. eventaully dissappearing.
The one thing you will notice in overnext year you'll probably see All the high-end Vidcards being produced in PCIe only. this will filter to midrange and eventaully low end cards.
The one thing you will notice in overnext year you'll probably see All the high-end Vidcards being produced in PCIe only. this will filter to midrange and eventaully low end cards.
Rogue4mula said:
I disagree. A lot of people (like my aunts and cousins) would rather have the free ports open for useful things like a palm or a camera or a scanner rather than use one up for a mouse. if you're not gaming or doing performance apps, there's no need to waste a usb port.
Personally, I havea MAX-3 board; no paralell, no serial. While I like the emphasis on new tech, it can be annoying not to have the option to use the old stuff.
In my opinion, the first thing we should drop is the floppy.
inotocracy
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...what the hell is wrong with using a ps2 keyboard? I dont see any advantage of using up a usb slot for a keyboard when its pretty pointless to use anything but the ps2 for keyboard. Mouse is a different story since we need that added bandwidth for a high refresh... but a keyboard? Unless you type at 500wpm I dont see the need for a usb keyboard.
chrisf6969
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Blauman said:
Yep, look at the shelves of CompUSA, BestBuy, etc... there are still quite a few PCI cards being produced. And considering that there is virtually no performance benefit even going from 4xAGP to PCIe16x they will probably continue to make high to mid-end cards on AGP.
Unlike PCI cards which are primarly low-end right now.
My estimate 3 years. +-
USB for mouse and keyboard can function ok, but often requires some BIOS tweaking to be fully supported. Also, some mobo's have STR issues when using USB keyboards or mice, and either won't suspend at all, or wake up with a dead mouse or keyboard. Aforementioned tweaking is also important in case you want to use the keyboard during POST. Some keyboards also have problems switching F-lockduring post if they're connected via USB, so if you want to boot into safe mode with an F8 you're outta luck.
I'd sooner see serial and parallel ports go first. And whatever happened to the thought of a PAN for the desktop with all peripherals connecting via bluetooth? I have a lot of stock in Duracell and Energizer just waiting for that day to come.
I'd sooner see serial and parallel ports go first. And whatever happened to the thought of a PAN for the desktop with all peripherals connecting via bluetooth? I have a lot of stock in Duracell and Energizer just waiting for that day to come.
Drop the PS/2 Mouse and Keyboard ports, serial ports, and the parallel port, and replace them all with USB.
I'm actually tempted to desolder my parallel and serial ports just because they annoy me. I dont think I've ever used a serial port, and I haven't used a parallel port since my P200. Waste of space IMO.
I'm actually tempted to desolder my parallel and serial ports just because they annoy me. I dont think I've ever used a serial port, and I haven't used a parallel port since my P200. Waste of space IMO.
Well ATi isn't making the X850 series in AGP. The X700 series is PCI-E only. Intel no longer supports AGP in any of it's new chipsets. Nforce 4 is PCI-E only.
What does that tell you?
Guess what? AGP is going by bye. Sure we may see occasional AGP cards from low to mid range performance/price brackets for the next year to two years. But nothing beyond that. I think we may see one more round of high end AGP cards and that's that.
It didn't take long for the high end cards to go AGP only. PCI cards are around for systems that don't have an AGP slot and for multi-monitor use. PCI-Express is replacing both standards. I don't think AGP will hold on like PCI-E.
For many reasons PCI-Express is better, and therefore should get quick adoption. PCI-E isn't all about being faster. It's about effeciency, lower CPU utilization and cost. Flexibility for mobo makers to use the PCI-E lanes however they wish. PCI-E systems have been shipping for months in the retail stores. Virtually all HP and Compaq machines are PCI-E now. Sony and other companies are fallowing suit in the near future too.
What is your basis for this? Theres no reason to, when you study the technology. PCI-E is better in virtually every way possible.
Yes it will. All PC standards fade away and die when newer/faster/better ones come out. Why would you want options? That doesn't make any sense. You want standardization. Diversity in bus types never has been good. Look at your hardware history and you'll realize that. If you remember the EISA, VLB, PCI days you know this already.
Standards should be that, standards. It sucks when multiple standards operate side by side. Because if you buy into one that dissapears one day, your stuck. It can be hard giving up on an older standard you've become used to, but it's for the better in the long run. I had a hard time giving up on AT when it was time to go ATX. ATX will be hard to give up one when BTX becomes more common. Get over it. This industry changes all the time. It has to by its nature.
AGP needs to die. It's not a bandwidth problem alone. It's got other issues that PCI-E solves. PCI desperatley needs replacement by PCI-E. SATA controllers, SCSI cards, and other devices are bottlenecked by PCI right now. So a new bus type is NEEDED.
SLi is one of the first tangible things that shows us what we were missing with AGP that we had with PCI.
What does that tell you?
Guess what? AGP is going by bye. Sure we may see occasional AGP cards from low to mid range performance/price brackets for the next year to two years. But nothing beyond that. I think we may see one more round of high end AGP cards and that's that.
It didn't take long for the high end cards to go AGP only. PCI cards are around for systems that don't have an AGP slot and for multi-monitor use. PCI-Express is replacing both standards. I don't think AGP will hold on like PCI-E.
For many reasons PCI-Express is better, and therefore should get quick adoption. PCI-E isn't all about being faster. It's about effeciency, lower CPU utilization and cost. Flexibility for mobo makers to use the PCI-E lanes however they wish. PCI-E systems have been shipping for months in the retail stores. Virtually all HP and Compaq machines are PCI-E now. Sony and other companies are fallowing suit in the near future too.
BloodRayne said:
What is your basis for this? Theres no reason to, when you study the technology. PCI-E is better in virtually every way possible.
tazz said:
Yes it will. All PC standards fade away and die when newer/faster/better ones come out. Why would you want options? That doesn't make any sense. You want standardization. Diversity in bus types never has been good. Look at your hardware history and you'll realize that. If you remember the EISA, VLB, PCI days you know this already.
Standards should be that, standards. It sucks when multiple standards operate side by side. Because if you buy into one that dissapears one day, your stuck. It can be hard giving up on an older standard you've become used to, but it's for the better in the long run. I had a hard time giving up on AT when it was time to go ATX. ATX will be hard to give up one when BTX becomes more common. Get over it. This industry changes all the time. It has to by its nature.
AGP needs to die. It's not a bandwidth problem alone. It's got other issues that PCI-E solves. PCI desperatley needs replacement by PCI-E. SATA controllers, SCSI cards, and other devices are bottlenecked by PCI right now. So a new bus type is NEEDED.
SLi is one of the first tangible things that shows us what we were missing with AGP that we had with PCI.
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I'd give it one ...maybe 2 more weeks ....
inotocracy
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ARN said:
There is a difference, the refresh rate for a usb mouse is much higher than the standard 60hz of a PS/2 mouse. On 2000/XP you won't notice much of a difference going from a PS/2 mouse to a USB one because Windows XP/2k defaults to a higher refresh on PS/2 than on 9x/ME systems. You will notice a huge difference if the change is on a 9x system though.
It's more likely that WTX will come back to life and replace every single ATX system out there than that BTX will ever have a marketshare of over 10%. BTX is dead. No amount of hype will bring it back to life.
Anyway, people who complain about 'legacy' hardware like COM, LPT PS/2 ports and FDDs annoy me. Not for a moment do they realize what it is that has made those technologies live on for so long: the fact that they just work. It's the same KISS-principle which makes that USB and IEEE-1394(b) (AKA Firewire) keep failing over and over again when tolerances get smaller. In this case I'll take low-level over high-level interfaces.
Ocean
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when compaq ceases to make PCs
BigIron said:
One that I can think of, is a reduced cost to manufacture. IIRC PCI-E will use a less complicated layout of traces on the mobo then AGP, meaning reduced cost to manufacture Much as we like to believe that performance is the main inspiration for new technology, the truth is that from the OE's point of view reducing the cost of manufacture is the big driver. Going from 130nm to 90 nm can mean better performace, but it also means more chips from a single waffer.
Ocean said:
Funny you should say that, HPs bog standard entry level business PCs are already arriving with PCIe as standard (we've just started getting in dx6100s in work).
I'd normally call 2-4 years on this kind of transition (1 or 2 cycles), for something like AGP I'd go for 2, but it may be as soon as next christmas given how hard this is being pushed (I don't think I've ever seen an OEM jump on a new tech as quickly).
My business big-brain thinks that maybe Intel is behind the PCIe push to try and one-up AMD.
about the usb vs PS2 mouse issue.
lets do some math.
1 mx510
1 ps2 port
and 1 usb port
the mx510 is uberaccurate
the ps/2 port can poll the mouse 200 times per second
USB is limited to 125 times per second.
has the math sunk in yet?
(small difference, i know, but i far prefer the smoothness of a mouse on PS/2 ports compared to USB)
also, PS2 is a dedicated bus. USB is shared. try gaming while you copy files off a USB2 hard drive.
lets do some math.
1 mx510
1 ps2 port
and 1 usb port
the mx510 is uberaccurate
the ps/2 port can poll the mouse 200 times per second
USB is limited to 125 times per second.
has the math sunk in yet?
(small difference, i know, but i far prefer the smoothness of a mouse on PS/2 ports compared to USB)
also, PS2 is a dedicated bus. USB is shared. try gaming while you copy files off a USB2 hard drive.
omega-x said:
Yes, this is off topic, but PS/2 is far better for your mouse, when you crank it up to 200Mhz. USB is capped at 125, and is shared.. Not to mention it requires more of a CPU overhead..
Everything else can go, but I'm down with keeping PS/2 ports.. I'm all about faster, dedicated, low cpu overheads for my keyboard and mouse..
BigIron said:
Reduced manufacturing costs. More effcient communication accross the bus. Since PCI-E can handle bi-direction signaling. AGP can't. Nor can PCI. Reduced CPU utilization. Lower power. PCI-E x16 can provide more power to Graphics cards. Fewer cards need molex connections for power. Flexibility for manufacturers to use the PCI-E lanes anyway they want. You can use all your lanes in two x16 (1 x16 and 1 x4 or 2 x8 slots with a mechanical connection for x16.) sockets if you so desire. Or you can have 4 x1 sockets and 1 x16 sockets. So you don't need anything over x4 for video in a server? Great. Use your PCI-E lanes for more x1, x4, x8 sockets. The possibilities are pretty vast.
Since PCI can only handle 133MB a second transfers, SATA controllers and other devices have become bottlenecked. Thier true performance can't be achieved.
That's why PCI-X was created. But 66MHz 64bit PCI hasn't cought on in the desktop systems and that socket design is much larger. Thus creating problems in smaller PC's. With PCI-E you can eliminate all those extra slot types and have 1 slot type that does everything.
AGP's problems are different. First off theres not enough voltage for higher end or even midrange cards now. You also can not have more than one AGP connection on the motherboard. So if you need more than one video card (SLi for example) you can't do it. You have to use one AGP card and one lesser PCI-Card.
This link will explain in more detail some of the reasons why PCI-Express kicks ass.
http://www.gen-x-pc.com/pci_basic.htm
Here's a quote from that article covering AGP vs. PCI-Express.
"Additionally, the AGP specification does not support "snooping." It implies that memory used by devices needs to be mapped uncached or write combined by the processor in order to prevent the processor from caching that memory, or else an expensive cache flush needs to be done between handoff of a surface between CPU and GPU. Thus, processor read access to that memory will be very slow."
"PCIe will support snooping. It will now be possible to map such shared memory as cacheable and still be able to maintain coherency between the CPU and the GPU. Snooped transactions are slower than nonsnooped transactions, but since the CPU can read the shared memory at full speed and we do not need to flush any caches, the tradeoff might mean better performance in some scenarios."
"One of the main goals of the design of PCI-Express was to achieve a low cost solution capable of high volume application. In other words, the add-ins cards can become simpler with fewer pins, which means that unit costs can be reduced. So today's modem will get smaller and cheaper but it also gives future devices room to grow."
I didn't want to get into why PCI-E was better but since you asked.
Cool thanks for the insight Sir-Fragalot all very good points.
On an enthusiast level I think AGP will be phased out in a year or so. But on a business level, say youre the network admin for large or medium network; say 500 users and you need to do a refresh of 200 units. Lets say you push out your images and driver packages over the network, do you really want to be forced to support two different technologies requiring different images or driver packages? In a large network you want to standardize your hardware, its much easier and cost effective. So from a B2B stand point I would think AGP should be avaliable for some time to come. I am amazed how fast the industry seems to be pushing towards PCI-E though.
On an enthusiast level I think AGP will be phased out in a year or so. But on a business level, say youre the network admin for large or medium network; say 500 users and you need to do a refresh of 200 units. Lets say you push out your images and driver packages over the network, do you really want to be forced to support two different technologies requiring different images or driver packages? In a large network you want to standardize your hardware, its much easier and cost effective. So from a B2B stand point I would think AGP should be avaliable for some time to come. I am amazed how fast the industry seems to be pushing towards PCI-E though.
For me, AGP lasts until I decide my cards time has come...and going by it's pricetag, that's going to be a while. There's not a single game in the works that can even touch todays top of the line AGP cards, so what's the point in dropping a chunk of cash for a new video card and board? Oh that's right, the e-penis and 3dmark scores.
Back to topic here.. AGP is going to be around for atleast the next 1.5-2 years.. It would have to be.. Do you really think that all the computers in the world will be upgraded by then to have PCI-E slots? That's not going to happen, and as such, the vid card manuf. will HAVE to bridge their pci-e cards to AGP, or they'd be missing out on a VERY large install base..
DemonDiablo
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BigIron said:
The thing about being a network admin is that you are supposed to have enough insight when making your network plan to have scalability and flexibility. Such a thing is probably more of a problem for the helpdesk than the network guys anyways
BigIron said:
Well I do work in IT where I have 500 machines to work with. 360 PC's and about 140 Macintosh's. It's rare that we do a hardware refresh where we upgrade individual machines with anything other than memory. Normally we simply replace the units every three years. Every year though we usually get 34 Macs and 34 PC's or more to replace/augment what we've got. We phase out the 3 year old machines at that time. So we replace more than we upgrade. As far as driver packages and all of that, with the right management system in place it's not really a huge challenge to have machines of varying types and drivers. To a degree. For example I have 72 XW4100's and 72 XW5000's. I've got alot of other machines, but as an example, I only have a few types of machines. Say six types total. So I only need six different system images.
We use Altiris Client Management and Deployment server to handle all these things. I can image these machines remotely from my desk. I can send drivers or whole images around everywhere.
From a logistics standpoint, 6 machine types aren't too bad. Now if I had 500 machines and 25 or 60 types that would be a serious challenge. But high end video editiing stations and other types of machines will possibly need upgrades and so certain types of video cards like Quadro's and Wildcatt cards may and probably will be available in AGP for 3 years easily. For those reasons. Business and video editing will need that hardware to keep expensive platforms current. So there will be some limited availability of cards for both AGP and PCI-E However, I think that in the retail and home machines and even most classes of business desktops AGP will disappear from high end service in less than 2 years. Not counting the 8 months or so PCI-E has been available so far. PCI-E is just being adopted very quickly by much of the industry.