whats the difference between these two power supplies?

Visable-assassin

Visable-assassin

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exactly what is the difference between the two listed power supplies?

PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 510

and the

PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 510 Delux ??

is it just the color of the caseing and the cable sleeve?

according to the site they are identical, the same adjustible rails...same everything...only difference i can find is the black "paint" job and the wire sleeveing...am I correct?

ExcaliberPC is selling both and im wondering if the difference is just the sleeving...ill be ordering one tomarrow night..and i need to know ! so help me out please guys :)
also ALL of the turbo cool 510's come with adjustible pots correct?
 
Why are you going to pay $175+ for one of those PSU's when you could just order an Antec 430w or Fortron 400w for less then $70?

The PC Power and Cooling PSU's are great quality but they really aren't all that better then the rest of the name brand PSU's. And the ones you are looking at are about the loudest there is. Not to mention their efficiency rating isn't as high as the Antec and Fortron.

And what race car are you going to power with 510w :p.

The only difference i see between the two from pc power and cooling's data sheet is cosmetics.
 
You could also get the Antec True Control 550 for $100 at newegg. I know it's not good to go cheap on a power supply but this isn't exactly cheap. It has the controls for the rails which although I have not looked at the PC P&C is probably one of the selling points for you.

I'm not telling you not to buy the PSU you're looking at, just trying to point you to one I think may be comparable and cheaper. If I had the money, the True Control 550 is what I would get right now.
 
Originally posted by SmokeRngs
You could also get the Antec True Control 550 for $100 at newegg. I know it's not good to go cheap on a power supply but this isn't exactly cheap. It has the controls for the rails which although I have not looked at the PC P&C is probably one of the selling points for you.

I'm not telling you not to buy the PSU you're looking at, just trying to point you to one I think may be comparable and cheaper. If I had the money, the True Control 550 is what I would get right now.
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your right. that PCP&C is a waste of money. if you aret rich or powering a server.
 
Originally posted by DeepFreeze
your right. that PCP&C is a waste of money. if you aret rich or powering a server.
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Buying a 550w PSU is also a waste of money when the majority of high end systems only use around 300w.
 
You will never convince me that you can have too powerful a power supply...having any video card above a 9700 can suck the life out of all but the best PSU's...

This thread should die as the question has been answered, but let me add that I would buy a good solid Asus Truepower and mod it cosmetically at home.
 
Its always good to have a larger PSU then what you need but you dont want to go overboard. PSU run at the highest efficiency when they are under at least 70% or more load. A 300w PSU will run most systems just fine. Even with 4 or more hard drives, 5 PCI cards, 4 optical drives, and a high end processor and video card your still not going to use more then around 300-350w if EVERYTHING was under full load all at once which is pretty well impossible to do.

400w-450w is usuaully overkill but thats the size i recommend for high end systems so that there is more upgradeability. 500w+ PSU's are only needed in large servers with dual processors.

Wattage rating doesn't really mean anything. Its all about combined allowances and efficiency ratings.

And they are ANTEC True Powers not Asus :p .
 
looking at a newer one due to the fact my Antec true power 550's rails seem to be sagging like they shouldnt be..the true control is only a second thought...but even then I havent seen any where where even that things rails dont drop...so far only the PC+P's supplies have really got my attention with the rails NOT fluctuating...and how would you say its loud? its what 34db? I wouldnt consider that all that loud...but if someone has a tru control 550 and can show me their rails being exactly 12v 5v and 3.3v or HIGHER please by all means give me a screenie and I will definatatly consider it :)
 
Originally posted by Visable-assassin
...but if someone has a tru control 550 and can show me their rails being exactly 12v 5v and 3.3v or HIGHER please by all means give me a screenie and I will definatatly consider it :)
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That is the advantage of the TruControl 550. You get a 5.25 drive plate with the adjustments for the rails on it. If they are a bit low, then you can adjust them higher, or if they are high you can adjust them lower. That is why I would like to have that power supply. I wish they would make lower wattage versions like the 430 TruPower since 550 is a bit expensive and a large overkill for what I have and probably will have.

Another thing you may want to take into account is how you are monitoring the voltages. The motherboard and software that reads from the motherboard aren't always accurate. I believe it's BBS that is always saying that software reports his 12 volt rail around 11.48 but his voltage tester reads right at 12.
 
Originally posted by Visable-assassin
looking at a newer one due to the fact my Antec true power 550's rails seem to be sagging like they shouldnt be..the true control is only a second thought...but even then I havent seen any where where even that things rails dont drop...so far only the PC+P's supplies have really got my attention with the rails NOT fluctuating...and how would you say its loud? its what 34db? I wouldnt consider that all that loud...but if someone has a tru control 550 and can show me their rails being exactly 12v 5v and 3.3v or HIGHER please by all means give me a screenie and I will definatatly consider it :)
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As long as the rails dont fluctuate more then +/- 5% its completely normal for PSU's and its not going to hurt anything.

But you dont need an Antec 550w PSU ither im sure. Why dont you post your system specs and i can tell you exactly what you need. I never use much over 400w PSU's even on the huge systems i build for people. 550w is serious overkill unless you have dual processors and 6 hard drives and 4 optical drives and so on.

Your best buy will be the Antec True Power 430w or the Fortron 400w. PCP&C uses Fortron parts for their power supplies.

And what i mean by loud is that its more like 44db.
 
the difference in the units is the black coloring, the sleeved cables, and the holes in the PSU to adjust the POTS. the normal 510 does have adjustable pots, but you will need to take the cover off to do it.. The 510 deluxe you don't have to do that with..

If you get the 510 Deluxe from PC Power and Cooling directly, you can get it on sale for 197.10.. So for 8 bucks more, it comes in a black case, and is already sleeved.. Well worth it IMO.. It looks sharper, and cuts down on clutter..

Now, don't listen to these heathens.. Let them buy their $80 PSU, and be content with noise polluted power.. Take it from me, the 510 Deluxe is simply the best PSU out there.. There's no worrying about it crapping out after a year, or bad ripple, low voltages, unstable voltages, spikes, etc, etc... it does what a PSU should... I can't say that about any other PSU on the market.. Most of the PSU's on the market struggle to get under the standard for noise ripple as it is.. the PCP&C meets and ALWAYS exceeds the ATX standard.. Nothing else comes close..

Yes it is expensive, but this is a high quality PSU that is guaranteed for 5 years.. And it's rated for a true 510 watts of power @ normal PSU temps.. Not like everyone else who is rated @ 25 C, which you'll never get in a PSU unless it's outside in winter time..

If there is one component that you simply cannot skimp on, it's the PSU... and it's sad how everyone buys all this high end equipemnt to trust it on psu's that are at the upper limits of the ATX standard (and sometimes not meeting it)..

The only Caveat for this PSU is that it is not a silent PSU, which is to be expected.. It's definately going to be heard, but I dont' find it too loud, and it's pitch is not annoying at all.. 34 Db isn't bad at all, and I've never had mine have to speed the fan all the way up to 44 Db during gaming..

As a note, my rails hardly ever move, and if they do it's for a second and is well within' the advertised 1% fluctuation.. the only ones that do move are the 3.3 and the 5, but this is when I'm using MBM to monitor, so I'm sure the mobo voltage regulation is what's causing it, vs. the PSU.. gotta love Asus and their 2 phase power solutions.. ;)


But to each his own, flame away...

*** remember, those who put down the PCP&C are probably pissed off they can't afford one.. ;) ****

GET A JOB HIPPIES!!! LOL!! /me runs for cover
 
Originally posted by Barnaby
Now, don't listen to these heathens.. Let them buy their $80 PSU, and be content with noise polluted power.. Take it from me, the 510 Deluxe is simply the best PSU out there.. There's no worrying about it crapping out after a year, or bad ripple, low voltages, unstable voltages, spikes, etc, etc... it does what a PSU should... I can't say that about any other PSU on the market.. Most of the Antec's struggle to get under the standard for noise ripple as it is.. the PCP&C meets and ALWAYS exceeds the ATX standard.. Nothing else comes close..

Yes it is expensive, but this is a high quality PSU that is guaranteed for 5 years.. And it's rated for a true 510 watts of power @ normal PSU temps.. Not like everyone else who is rated @ 25 C, which you'll never get in a PSU unless it's outside in winter time..

If there is one component that you simply cannot skimp on, it's the PSU... and it's sad how everyone buys all this high end equipemnt to trust it on psu's that are at the upper limits of the ATX standard (and sometimes not meeting it)..
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Nobody is trying to say the PC Power and Cooling PSU's aren't pretty well the best out there. But the fact remains they aren't that much better then an Antec or Fortron. PCP&C has Fortron build their PSU parts. The FSP Group is pretty much the top PSU manufacter in the world. They contract out to tons of different PSU's. Fortron and Sparkle are both extremely good PSU's. Antec PSU's which are made by Channell Well Technologies are also very high quality. Antec and Fortron are the top PSU's recommended on nearly ever hardware forum out there. The Antec PSU's were awarded the PSU of the year on nearly every site the gave out PSU awards.

The PCP&C 510w's efficiency rating isn't as good as the Antec 430w and they are 44db which is not what i would want in a farely quiet case.

The Antec PSU's are guaranteed for 3 years and i've never had one fail on me nor have i had to replace one in any of the systems i've built and sold to others yet.

I agree about the importance of the PSU and not skimping but skimping is buying a Foxtron or Deer PSU not one of the top PSU's available from Antec or Fortron.

And have you ever used a multimeter before? It takes a pretty hefty system to just pull 350w so spending almost $200 on a PSU that isn't going to do anything for you that a name brand for like $130 less can't is pretty pointless IMO unless you are powering a computer on the NASA space shuttle and they use Fortron's :).

*** remember, those who put down the PCP&C are probably pissed off they can't afford one.. ****
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And those that think the PCP&C psu's are all that better then other PSU's are usually trying to condone spending $200 on a PSU :p. I could definitely afford one but i still woudln't buy one even if someone gave me $200 to buy one cause i'd rather not have dual Vantec Tornado's blowing out the back of my case :D .
 
Hmm, I prefer power supplies that exceed the ATX 2.03 standard as well. It's called SSI, and any high-end supply you are going to get in that wattage range that is worth it's salt is going to meet that standard. Vantec Stealth, Antec True 550, Fortron EPS, and Enermax EPS supplies all are to this standard, which is for server. I find it quite funny that you think that $80 is skimping on a PSU. Sure, don't get a cheap $20 PSU, but don't burn all your cash on a PSU that could arguably be slightly better in some respects over another unit, but costs *twice* as much!
It would be difficult for me to create a system that draws >500 without going dual CPU or RAID array. As for the comments about noise polluted power, I challenge you to take and plug your PCP&C supply into a plug on the same circuit as oh say a hair dryer and an air condition, and then we'll see how great your filtering is. I bet it wouldn't be any better than my Vantec or my Enermax.

There's no worrying about it crapping out after a year, or bad ripple, low voltages, unstable voltages, spikes, etc, etc...
it does what a PSU should... I can't say that about any other PSU on the market..
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
How many other PSUs have you owned? Have you owned every other PSUs on the market? ... Didn't think so. How can you make statements like that?:rolleyes: So you say that is has less ripple in it's output. Have you gotten out the ocilliscope and actually tested it? Low volatages? If you are refering to the line voltage, most *good* PSUs will accept a wide range of voltages. My Vantec will work 95VAC - 132VAC. Can you say the same about your PCP&C? As for output voltages, the reason you see very little fluctuation is for two reasons: 1. You bought an expensive, well regulated PSU 2. You couldn't stress you PSU to save your life. Sure it's got adjustable voltages, so does everyone else, albeit less accessable. But how often do you adjust that anyway! Next, you mention spikes. Spikes kill equipment. End of story. If it's a slight (>+20v) fluctuation, most equiment can take that in stride anyway.

I'm not saying that PCP&C makes a bad supply. All i'm saying is that even if I had the cash I still wouldn't buy one because it is cost prohibitive. I'd rather buy some more RAM or HD space.
 
Originally posted by burningrave101
I could definitely afford one but i still woudln't buy one even if someone gave me $200 to buy one cause i'd rather not have dual Vantec Tornado's blowing out the back of my case .
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Well, you can always change the fan ... on another note, my friend's TrueControl 550 just died after 3 months of use. He's currently making the switch to PC Power & Cooling.
 
First and formost, it hardly ever hits 44 db.. the thing has more than enuff power, that it will take a whole lot to stress it to the point the fan would need to spin up all the way.. and if you are stressing it that bad, you're probably gaming, which you won't be hearing anything anyways over the game.

Here, take a look at this PSU roudup:

http://www.amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID=270


If you look at the results, you see that even the almighty antec fails a test.. the 550 trucontrol does alot better, but it won't give as much power as the PCP&C..

I wouldn't get a PSU that did not feature an active PFC circuit in it.. If you read that article, you'll see that the best performers are all using PFC circuits.. this will lower efficiency alittle, but I think the rewards definately outweigh the small loss of effeciency.. Plus if you have a PSU that is more than ample, it doesn't have to work as hard to power your system, and will use less power in turn..

If you want to read some funny reviews on the antec's, go over to newegg, and read the user reviews on the trublue 480... it's scary how many had caps blow up on them.. IMO antec's quality is taking a dive on their PSU's.. I've seen more and more reports about them dying out...

you ever notice how many threads are on here about ppl who have problems with PCP&C supplies? you hardly ever see them (if ever.. )
 
Originally posted by amishpinky
Well, you can always change the fan ... on another note, my friend's TrueControl 550 just died after 3 months of use. He's currently making the switch to PC Power & Cooling.
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that would void the warranty.. the fan used is a Nidec Beta SL, which is temp controlled... it will normally spin on it's lowest setting, and it's noticeable, but is no where near as loud as my stock HSF for my 2800+ barton.. that little bastard if far louder than the 510 deluxe... can't wait till I replace it with a mcx 462 with a 92mm Panaflo..
 
Originally posted by Barnaby

I wouldn't get a PSU that did not feature an active PFC circuit in it.


you ever notice how many threads are on here about ppl who have problems with PCP&C supplies? you hardly ever see them (if ever.. )
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Vantec Stealth = Active PFC

And threads about death are proportionaly to ownership numbers.
 
No, I haven't owned every PSU on the market, but I've read pretty much every review one can find on them.. And alot of times that includes the review whipping out the ocilliscope on it to test the lines and using a multimeter to check the voltages.. check out the review I linked to, as it's definately one of the most comprehensive reviews on a number of PSU's...

it does a nice job of showing the noise ripple on the voltages comming out of the psu, and the PCP&C was the lowest.. Yeay for PFC..

one of the reasons I don't like the vantec stealth series though, is that they are VERY loud, and hardly deserve having the word stealth in their name.. other than that they do make good psu's if you get the PFC model..

and yes, I can say that my PCP&C can work in 95-132 VAC.. actually mine is rated for 90-264 VAC, so no worries there.. ;)

I'm not arguing that they aren't overpriced.. because they are.. but in the end, I feel it's worth it, as other supplies can match the performance of the 510 Deluxe.. and if you want the best, then there is a premium...
 
Ok here's one thing to take into consideration when you're looking at PSUs. Just because the parts come from the same company doesn't mean they are identical parts. Quality and tolerances can make a big difference.

When you start overclocking a chip keep in mind that the tolerances listed on the site probably just got thrown out the window. At this point voltages can make or break a system and how well it can be overclocked.

I've had power spikes/sags at my house that have managed to reset all the clocks in the house and the computer was still powered on and running fine the whole time. I saw the lights flash and just kept playing my game, didn't think anything of it.

Also as most people are aware you don't want to go by the rated wattage since one company uses 25C and the other uses 50C to measure temps. What if your PSU is running above 50C because the room it's in is rather hot? I can guanantee you that the numbers you get would go even lower. That being said if you use larger components they won't generate as much heat at the lower work levels.

Having a large power supply isn't always overkill. A lot of it ends up being wasted on some of the more lightly used rails. I like using the larger supplies mainly to make sure my 12V rail is pleanty high for anything I'm going to do.

I'd love to see a review site actually set ambient room temps to 25C, 50C, and even 75C and see what kind of results they can get out of the supplies using proper test equipment and more detailed testing. I'm halfway tempted to do it myself and start testing for actual numbers used by various components under load. See how much power some systems are actually pulling. If only I had enough hardware around to pull something like that off.

Besides after using dual CPUs going back to slower single CPU systems just doesn't seem worth it. I love the speed I have now. As for actually stressing a PSU if you have a dual CPU system it isn't all that hard to do it. There have been countless occasions where I've been playing a game, burning a CD, and even pulling files over the network all at the same time. Running 2 CPUs, a radeon9700, SCSI Raid, and having a burner copy off another dvd drive all at the same time would have to tax the power supply just a little bit. The 12V water pump probably sucked a little juice as well. I wouldn't even consider my system that much of a high end machine.

Here's your typical breakup of where a system would be:

Low End - Your typical computer system.
Mid Range - Systems with a big video card and new CPU
High End - Anything excessively overclocked, running dual CPUs, RAID, (this does not include your P4s that are overclocked to 3ghz etc)
 
anarchist:

That is one of the selling points of the PCP&C is that it's rated for 510 watts @ 40c and 600 @ 25c.. @ 50c it drops to 460...

almost all other PSU's are rated @ 25c for their advertised watts, so it's kinda disappointing knowing that your paying for something you'll never get unless you live in alaska, and have the computer outside.. ;)
 
Having a large power supply isn't always overkill. A lot of it ends up being wasted on some of the more lightly used rails. I like using the larger supplies mainly to make sure my 12V rail is pleanty high for anything I'm going to do.
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Theres nothing wrong with a little overkill. But the thing is most systems even high end systems never draw more then 300w of output power. If you have quite a few hard drives and a really large setup it will get up around 350w and if you have dual processors then you wanna start makeing sure you have a 400w or larger PSU. But since the majority are lucky to use all of 300w at any given time then with an Antec 430w you have 110w of power that never gets used. Less stress on the PSU will add greater longetivity but it will also decrease the efficiency causing more power to be wasted. 100w overkill is plenty to leave room for upgrades.
 
Originally posted by burningrave101
Theres nothing wrong with a little overkill. But the thing is most systems even high end systems never draw more then 300w of output power. If you have quite a few hard drives and a really large setup it will get up around 350w and if you have dual processors then you wanna start makeing sure you have a 400w or larger PSU. But since the majority are lucky to use all of 300w at any given time then with an Antec 430w you have 110w of power that never gets used. Less stress on the PSU will add greater longetivity but it will also decrease the efficiency causing more power to be wasted. 100w overkill is plenty to leave room for upgrades.
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but the problem with that is the antec 430 is rated for that power @ 25c.. Realistically, it's going to be around 40c in there, and your 110w of overkill is now gone, and you are running the psu to it's limit...

also gotta love how the MTBF of the antec's are rated @ 25c too... how nice is that.. that's like when the deathstar's were rated on how long they'd last running only 8 hours a day! lol
 
Regardless of what my system will realistically use Ill always buy larger than I need.
I had a 400w sparkle go out on me when it was run on a 1.4ghz t-bird setup running only 2 hard drives 2 cd-roms and 4 fans, useing a GF2 pro and a aureal sq2500...well that system shouldnt have pull anything worth a damn...but guess what....it toasted..now i just wont deal with BS anymore...take a look at my other thread..a NF7 didnt wanna run..it got destroyed.
So far my TP 550 has been doing well but on my NF7-S the rails are WAY lower than Id personally like.
now like i said if someone can post some screenies of their true control with its rails at EXACTLY 12v 5v and 3.3v or HIGHER ill consider it...yes im still considering it.
the PCP+C supplies are proven to not drop or sag...look around youll see their rails are actually ABOVE what they should be..and generally dont budge when under load.
now just for quick reference...on the true control how high can you physically adjust the rails? 12v stock to 12.12v max? or is it more like 12v stock 12.03v max?

also to those who do own a PCP+C 510 please by all meanspost a screenie of your rails to so we can compair :)
also honestly how friggin loud is the thing? my 120mm panaflo M1A is like 36db i think..so it should be quieter than that...now instead of giving me shit about "your going too much" please help out with the question at hand.
because reguardless of what I will use and what you will put in your own system..mine will be running with what I want..and right now its either a True control 550 or a PCP+C 510.
thanks guys

V-A
 
Originally posted by Visable-assassin
Regardless of what my system will realistically use Ill always buy larger than I need.
I had a 400w sparkle go out on me when it was run on a 1.4ghz t-bird setup running only 2 hard drives 2 cd-roms and 4 fans, useing a GF2 pro and a aureal sq2500...well that system shouldnt have pull anything worth a damn...but guess what....it toasted..now i just wont deal with BS anymore...take a look at my other thread..a NF7 didnt wanna run..it got destroyed.
So far my TP 550 has been doing well but on my NF7-S the rails are WAY lower than Id personally like.
now like i said if someone can post some screenies of their true control with its rails at EXACTLY 12v 5v and 3.3v or HIGHER ill consider it...yes im still considering it.
the PCP+C supplies are proven to not drop or sag...look around youll see their rails are actually ABOVE what they should be..and generally dont budge when under load.
now just for quick reference...on the true control how high can you physically adjust the rails? 12v stock to 12.12v max? or is it more like 12v stock 12.03v max?

also to those who do own a PCP+C 510 please by all meanspost a screenie of your rails to so we can compair :)
also honestly how friggin loud is the thing? my 120mm panaflo M1A is like 36db i think..so it should be quieter than that...now instead of giving me shit about "your going too much" please help out with the question at hand.
because reguardless of what I will use and what you will put in your own system..mine will be running with what I want..and right now its either a True control 550 or a PCP+C 510.
thanks guys

V-A
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it's not that loud.. like i said earlier, the fan on a retail HSF for an athlonxp 2800+ is louder and is more annoying.. the fan will be spinning closer to 34 Db than it will 44 Db.. Mine has never hit that loud for what it's worth..

And I can agree with you.. My last PSU was a sparkle 400 watt (which most ppl will say Sparkle's are good psu's) But, low and behold it would have MAJOR voltage drops on the +12 on a single AthlonXP sytem, with a ti4200, 1 SATA hitachi hdd, 2 optical drives, 6 case fans, when I turned on my cold cathodes... the 12 volt would drop down to 11.70.. while that is still in spec, it's hardly what I would call stable..

I wasn't even going to fathom what would happen if I dropped in my 6 SCSI devices (2 optical drives, 1 tape back up, and 3 hard drives)

but the PCP&C won't budge.. the 12 volt is at 12.10 all the time, the 5 is on 5, and the 3.3 is on 3.28... the 3 and the 5 fluctuate every now and then, but I am reading this all from MBM 5, off my Asus A7N8X Deluxe which has a 2 phase power supply on it, which I'm sure is going to fluctuate..


if you want screenies or anything let me know, and I'll try and get some over the weekend for you..
 
Originally posted by Visable-assassin
Regardless of what my system will realistically use Ill always buy larger than I need.
I had a 400w sparkle go out on me when it was run on a 1.4ghz t-bird setup running only 2 hard drives 2 cd-roms and 4 fans, useing a GF2 pro and a aureal sq2500...well that system shouldnt have pull anything worth a damn...but guess what....it toasted..now i just wont deal with BS anymore...take a look at my other thread..a NF7 didnt wanna run..it got destroyed.
So far my TP 550 has been doing well but on my NF7-S the rails are WAY lower than Id personally like.
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1. 1.4 T-birds are one of the largest current draw CPUs on the 5v line, ever.

2. Again I ask by what method are you determining the voltage output!

And barnaby, how can you say that you appriciate anything about computer PSUs when you are using MBM to read voltages! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Sure, it does relative changes great, but past that it's not worth a damn.
 
I had a 400w sparkle go out on me when it was run on a 1.4ghz t-bird setup running only 2 hard drives 2 cd-roms and 4 fans, useing a GF2 pro and a aureal sq2500...well that system shouldnt have pull anything worth a damn...but guess what....it toasted..now i just wont deal with BS anymore...take a look at my other thread..a NF7 didnt wanna run..it got destroyed.
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You probably had too much hooked up on one line or the PSU just went bad for some reason. You could of ran that off a 200w-250w PSU just fine.

And I can agree with you.. My last PSU was a sparkle 400 watt (which most ppl will say Sparkle's are good psu's) But, low and behold it would have MAJOR voltage drops on the +12 on a single AthlonXP sytem, with a ti4200, 1 SATA hitachi hdd, 2 optical drives, 6 case fans, when I turned on my cold cathodes... the 12 volt would drop down to 11.70.. while that is still in spec, it's hardly what I would call stable..
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Dude that is completley normal. Even if it would of dropped to 11.40 it would of been just fine. As long as its within +/- 5% the PSU is supplying stable power. You can e-mail any PSU manufacter and ask them if you dont believe me or just read an article on PSU's.

but the problem with that is the antec 430 is rated for that power @ 25c.. Realistically, it's going to be around 40c in there, and your 110w of overkill is now gone, and you are running the psu to it's limit...

also gotta love how the MTBF of the antec's are rated @ 25c too... how nice is that.. that's like when the deathstar's were rated on how long they'd last running only 8 hours a day! lol
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The PC Power and Cooling 510w will actually be running around 26c after 20 minutes while the Antec 430w is just 33c not 40c. There isn't a huge difference in temps. Heck even the Vantec Ion runs around 27c after 20 minutes. Some wattage will be converted to heat from running a little hotter but certainly nothing nowhere near 110w lol.

I dont know where you guys are coming up with all these wild ideas about PSU's. And unless you know how to effectively use a Multimeter on the 20-pin motherboard connector you have no idea what your talking about with voltages and how stable they are.

MBM5 and the BIOS are NEVER accurate on voltage readings. Alot of the times the Motherboard can have as much to do with bad voltage spikes as the PSU because the motherboard regulates the power to the devices that are connected to it.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1841&p=26

You can see here the voltage ratings on several PSU's are nearly as perfect at the PCP&C. So what if the PCP&C voltage ratings are like .0000000001 percent better then the others. You'll never even notice it and you just forked out an extra $130 lol.
 
It's threads like this that'll eventually motivate me to get off my lazy ass and continue putting together a PSU FAQ
 
I dont know where you guys are coming up with all these wild ideas about PSU's. And unless you know how to effectively use a Multimeter on the 20-pin motherboard connector you have no idea what your talking about with voltages and how stable they are.
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Well I'm going towards a BS in EET and spent most of the labs I'm in having to actually build PSUs from a pile of caps, regulators, diodes etc. I'd like to think I at least have a fundamental understanding about how things work inside them and what to watch out for. I think I've got the hang of how to use a multimeter down pretty well as well.


Just because a PSU should have more than enough watts doesn't mean it's able to put out enough power. If your system eats power off of a specific rail and that supply can't provide enough on that rail you're going to have problems. If the 12V rail is having problems you can't exactly borrow wattage so to speak from the 5V rail. On top of that when you start pushing the supply to it's limits it will have a much harder time keeping the voltages from fluctuating.

When the supplies start getting hot it's not that they start losing a lot of their power to heat, they just don't put out that power to begin with so your 550 watt PSU is only putting out say 60% of what it's rated for at 25C. Apply that drop to all specific rails and then if just one of those rails is having problems adequately supplying a stable voltage you could run into problems or even kill the PSU or hardware in the system.

Also the supply might say 5% tolerance but if that doesn't take into account the temp then you could go way outside that spec when the PSU starts to heat up.
 
Just because a PSU should have more than enough watts doesn't mean it's able to put out enough power. If your system eats power off of a specific rail and that supply can't provide enough on that rail you're going to have problems. If the 12V rail is having problems you can't exactly borrow wattage so to speak from the 5V rail. On top of that when you start pushing the supply to it's limits it will have a much harder time keeping the voltages from fluctuating.
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I've been saying all along that wattage rating doesn't mean anything. Its just a form of marketing and how they sell to the majority of people that dont know anything about power supplies. Most people just buy according to wattage rating. You have to look at each rail and also the combined 3.3v and 5v rails to find the actually total output on those two lines at any given time. The 12v rail is the most important because its where the hard drives and processor get their power. Power Supplies are the most efficient when ran 70% of their capacity.

When the supplies start getting hot it's not that they start losing a lot of their power to heat, they just don't put out that power to begin with so your 550 watt PSU is only putting out say 60% of what it's rated for at 25C. Apply that drop to all specific rails and then if just one of those rails is having problems adequately supplying a stable voltage you could run into problems or even kill the PSU or hardware in the system.
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The exact wattage loss according to heat is pretty well impossible to negate according to any set percentage. The fans, capacitors, heatsinks, and overall layout of each PSU is almost always different from PSU to PSU. Even some of the worst PSU's will run more then 60% of what of what their rated for at 40c. 65%-75% would be more accurrate for a generic PSU and a name brand like an Antec True Power that runs around 33c compared to the PCP&C which runs 26c both after 20 minutes would probably be like 75-85% of their rating.

The Antec True Power 430w is just about the best PSU for the price out there and the main PSU i use in all high end system builds. I've had zero problems with them.

http://www.antec-inc.com/us/pro_details_powerSupply.php?ProdID=20430#

Also the supply might say 5% tolerance but if that doesn't take into account the temp then you could go way outside that spec when the PSU starts to heat up.
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The +/- 5% rule is in accordance to the individual voltage readings. I.E. the 12v dipping to 11.6v is still fine. The fact the PSU is losing some wattage to heat isn't affecting how steady the rails are or at least it shouldn't be in a good PSU. When voltage ratings are measured with a multimeter it would show poor stability in the lines if the wattage loss from heat affected this.
 
Well, if you're studying towards an EE, I would assume that you have a good working knowledge of how switched mode power supplies work. I'm no EE, nor do I plan to become one, but I do understand the fundamental theories behind them. As you approach the limit of the components in the switching system, efficiency increases, because less switching is occuring. This would suggest that power supplies running close to their capacity would be more efficient than supplies way under capacity. Granted there is more heat production at high wattage usage, but so long as it is *properly* cooled, it's hypothetically better for the supply to be running closer to capacity. Now, how much of this theory actually translates into reality, I do not know. That's you're job ;)
 
When you're considering PSUs you can safely throw out efficiency. It's great if you want to save on your energy bill but you could have a really efficient supply that has crap for voltage regulation. Throw a transformer in there, couple regulators and a diode for each rail and you have yourself a power supply.

When you start heating parts up it will change the resistance value of them which will affect the final voltage. It will also tend to make the values fluctuate a little bit more. This shouldn't be the case with higher quality parts as they will be more resiliant.

Also where are you getting the 26C temps etc at 20 min? That supply would have to be under almost no load at all because I can tell you from first hand experience they run hotter than that. You'd probably want to wait more than 20 minutes as well to get a good reading unless you're powering the system up and running some intensive benchmarks on it right away.
 
Originally posted by Anarchist4000
When you're considering PSUs you can safely throw out efficiency. It's great if you want to save on your energy bill but you could have a really efficient supply that has crap for voltage regulation. Throw a transformer in there, couple regulators and a diode for each rail and you have yourself a power supply.
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Thats why you buy name brand quality PSU's. Brands like Antec, Fortron, Sparkle, Enermax, Vantec and so forth dont have crap for voltage regulation. Efficiency rating is very important because it does alot to show the quality of the PSU. If its highly efficient then it means its not just wasting power by converting it to heat. And it does save you money on the electric bill.

Also where are you getting the 26C temps etc at 20 min? That supply would have to be under almost no load at all because I can tell you from first hand experience they run hotter than that. You'd probably want to wait more than 20 minutes as well to get a good reading unless you're powering the system up and running some intensive benchmarks on it right away.
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I'm getting those temp results after 20 minutes right off the 2003 PSU Roundup at Anandtech i posted in this thread. The PC Power and Cooling supplies run very cool and with their freaking loud fans they should. Not to mention all the huge heatsinks in them. Partly the reason why they cost almost $200 for the 510w ones.

According to all the results i've seen from tests, most name brand quality PSU's run under 40c. Those temps may change after prolonged periods and heavy stress but by how much i dont know. I would like to see some actual results that showed some high end PSU's pushed to their limits and temps measured.
 
If its highly efficient then it means its not just wasting power by converting it to heat. And it does save you money on the electric bill.
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You could probably take 30 seperate parts and throw together a PSU that would be very efficient but would still have crap for voltage regulation and not be able to put out very much power. As for the efficiency just how much a year do you think that will save you? You are talking about changes in efficiency around 5% from one supply to another.

I'm getting those temp results after 20 minutes right off the 2003 PSU Roundup at Anandtech i posted in this thread. The PC Power and Cooling supplies run very cool and with their freaking loud fans they should. Not to mention all the huge heatsinks in them.
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I'd actual bring into question whether or not the guy that conducted those tests knew what he was doing. I don't even think I can get my internal case temp to 21C without the side off and a giant table fan on it. I'd also like to know what kind of a load they were putting on those supplies. If you don't put a significant load on them they won't be putting off much heat to begin with. On top of that to just be able to get to the PSU to measure the voltages they would definately have to get inside the case unless the PSU was setting outside the case which would throw out all those thermal numbers IMHO.

I even have both sides of my case off atm and I can guarantee you the air coming out of my PSU isn't the same as room temperature.
 
You could probably take 30 seperate parts and throw together a PSU that would be very efficient but would still have crap for voltage regulation and not be able to put out very much power. As for the efficiency just how much a year do you think that will save you? You are talking about changes in efficiency around 5% from one supply to another.
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Yea but noone is saying buy a shitty PSU as long as it has a high efficiency rating. PSU's like the ones from Antec, Fortron, and Enermax have rock stable voltage regulation and put out MORE then enough power. Just an efficiency rating of 70% vs one with 65% is saving 44w on a 400w PSU. Thats almost as much as what an LCD would draw in power. So with just a 5% better efficiecy rating your saving the cost of powering an LCD all year. Granted it wont be a alot of money but it adds up over time. And it varies by more then just 5% from one PSU to another. You'll see the 5% variance in name brand PSU's but with other craptacular PSU's the efficiency rating will be lower.
 
blah.. I wish ppl would stop saying PCP&C are loud.. They really aren't that bad.. Everyone sees that 44 DB MAXIMUM rating on the fan, and has a shit fit.. Most of the time, the fan is running at 34 DB, and even if it does wind up to hit 44 db, it's not an annoying high pitched noise like a delta, and more than likely if the PSU is stressed that much, you're probably doing something like gaming, which will be louder than the fan anyway..
 
Just an efficiency rating of 70% vs one with 65% is saving 44w on a 400w PSU.
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Assuming you had a 400 watt PSU pushing it's full 400 watts this could be true. Your system would have to be working it's ass off to get each rail near 100% capacity though.

As for voltage regulation I'm more concerned with how much that will fluctuate under load than what the PSU is putting off if hooked directly up to a multimeter.

It's easy to get a supply to put out exactly 12V or 5V etc. The problem is when you start trying to draw 20+ amps out of the supply and get it to hold those values, as well as keep those same voltage with the internal resistance of the supply. Antec, Fortron, and enermax have decent voltage regulation but I wouldn't got it rock solid by any means. Get a decent power surge/sag or turn on 8 HDs all at once and you could see that supply to start having problems.
 
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