Whatever happened to gritty, hard, dirty realism?

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mr_zen256

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I won't beat around the bush.. I'm talking about violence and gore in video games. More specifically, the Soldier of Fortune titles as the prime example.

These days, gore and violence in video games tend to be much more stylised and cartoonish. Is this due to ratings, political pressure, MP technology restrictions, mainstream acceptance (or non acceptance) etc etc...

Controversy often works in favour or against for game titles, and when they are a driving dynamic of a game, they often get spotlighted and scrutinized as exploitive (which is often true!)..

How come we don't see more titles that really offer a (oh noes, that dirty word!) visceral and graphic gaming experiences that really stand out and make you say "Holy fucking shitballs, Batman!"...

I understand many gamers have certain personal convictions that lean steadily away from graphic depictions of violence and that is totally fair enough. I try to steer clear of "My little pony and friends" as much as possible in contrast.

It would be fantastic to see a TRUE sequel to SoF or at least another IP with the same principles in that they want to give gamers the often shocking experience of true ballistic consequence.

It's comes down to this.. There IS a market for gritty, hard, dirty realism.. So why isn't it explored more often? The technology certainly isn't restrictive at this point...
 
Its not really political pressure, there have been recent gore titles that have been released and garnered no real craze. Manhunt for example was originally acclaimed and drew attention because of how vile and gore it was. Other games the same, its just that I think in general gamers are a fickle bunch in large numbers.

Most... most don't really give a shit about gore. Most, honestly don't give a shit about IQ or crazy performance. Most, care about having a good time, having fun and escaping life for just a few moments at a time. This is because most gamers are most people, and most people don't like extremes of anything to be honest. This applies to 'most' industries as well, movies and the like. By all means, if you feel there is a void that needs filling and that there is a plethra of consumers willing to pay ... start your own development studio and fire away.

I think you'll find that 'most' games fall in the middle, with some very cartoony on one side, more core/gore on the other. The median is never going to be the extreme.
 
I think hardcore gore only goes so far in a game before it all gets boring and repetitive. That's why gore isn't an end, it's more of a means, and a small one at that. In most games, I think, the gamer is going to pay more attention to what keeps his character going and growing (new places to explore, powers to get, treasure to find, objectives to complete, etc.), not how cool it is to shoot the pinky off a bad guy because of really cool hit detection, particle physics, and slick graphical viscera representation.

I really liked the Soldier of Fortune titles, but in the end I wasn't paying attention to the body parts I was shooting off...I just wanted to make sure the bad guys were dead so I could move on and explore some more.

Maybe, in the end, gamers recognize that excessive gore for gore's sake is just a gimmick. Kinda like cheesy horror flicks - there's only so much gore I can take before totally losing interest if the story is not interesting and the movie doesn't really go somewhere.
 
I agree... it's all about the gameplay in the end.

I loved SOF2, but for its multiplayer. And the MP didn't even have the gore turned up. It was pretty standard CS style violence.
 
Mature and 18+ ratings drive down potential audience of a game, the market of kids buying games is pretty large and these sort of adult ratings are hurtful to sales.
 
The young generation is germophobic and also afraid of blood, that's why.
 
Very True, it makes me feel like games really haven't changed much that increasing polygon count and larger textures. I would prefer a more "realistic" experience.

I find that games are lacking dismemberment over all.

Dead Space was awsome b/c it was the best I had seen in quite a while, granted the controls were garbage.
 
Several years ago the industry decided to start giving players more in terms of being able to more easily defeat games. It's call instant gratification. It's just spun out of control now.
 
I've never actually shot a bunch of terrorists, but I'm pretty sure the way they die in SoF is not realistic. The aftermath of most SoF fights look like the ending of Dead Alive.
 
mr_zen256 said:
I won't beat around the bush.. I'm talking about violence and gore in video games. More specifically, the Soldier of Fortune titles as the prime example.

These days, gore and violence in video games tend to be much more stylised and cartoonish. Is this due to ratings, political pressure, MP technology restrictions, mainstream acceptance (or non acceptance) etc etc...

Controversy often works in favour or against for game titles, and when they are a driving dynamic of a game, they often get spotlighted and scrutinized as exploitive (which is often true!)..

How come we don't see more titles that really offer a (oh noes, that dirty word!) visceral and graphic gaming experiences that really stand out and make you say "Holy fucking shitballs, Batman!"...

I understand many gamers have certain personal convictions that lean steadily away from graphic depictions of violence and that is totally fair enough. I try to steer clear of "My little pony and friends" as much as possible in contrast.

It would be fantastic to see a TRUE sequel to SoF or at least another IP with the same principles in that they want to give gamers the often shocking experience of true ballistic consequence.

It's comes down to this.. There IS a market for gritty, hard, dirty realism.. So why isn't it explored more often? The technology certainly isn't restrictive at this point...
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Interesting. Not many people are making this point. We have a bad case of inflation in kiddy cartoon game design these days. Not liking it either.
 
MONEY.

Just like movie industry, the higher the rating, the less audience exposure your product will have, and thus the less money it will make.

No publisher these days would allow a AAA title to be an 18+ without a solid financially justified reason.


That's it. :(
 
hfk said:
Interesting. Not many people are making this point. We have a bad case of inflation in kiddy cartoon game design these days. Not liking it either.
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Guess I'm on the opposite end. I find "real" too easy. No imagination, bland and boring. Anyone can do real. Not to say I can’t have fun with a realistic game. Yet I greatly admire something that had some thought put into it.

Shame games like Ratchet & Clank, for example, gets overlooked for being “too kiddie”. R&C are to games what Pixar is to movies. Anyone of any age should be able to enjoy it and many who take the chance do.
 
spine said:
MONEY.

Just like movie industry, the higher the rating, the less audience exposure your product will have, and thus the less money it will make.

No publisher these days would allow a AAA title to be an 18+ without a solid financially justified reason.


That's it. :(
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Precisely. Personally, I think you can have something that could be made for a wide audience that doesn't hit you over the head with tons of gore, sex, and filth to get the job done but that's just me.

If you do research, the more family friendly the content is the better it moves and sells and yet Hollywood just keeps on cranking out hard R filth left and right anyways. Go figure.
 
I personally couldn't give two fucks about how much gore is in a game. It does not effect my enjoyment of a game one bit.
 
xenios said:
I personally couldn't give two fucks about how much gore is in a game. It does not effect my enjoyment of a game one bit.
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Me, either. In fact, I'd say after a point too much of that is an outright turn off for me.
 
PrincessFrosty said:
Mature and 18+ ratings drive down potential audience of a game, the market of kids buying games is pretty large and these sort of adult ratings are hurtful to sales.
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Yea, that's why games like Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect, and the biggest selling game of all time, Call of Duty, don't sale that well.

The avg age of gamers is in their 30's, not kids. While the ratings can affect sales, it's not like "all kids game sell a shit ton, no mature games do."

I still think as far as gore in games go, for shooters SOF2 still has the best gore. I mean I don't get why most games don't do it that well, usually just have a canned animation for a head shot and hta'ts that. What happened to localized damage (IE shoot a guy in the leg he falls/limps, etc) many gmaes ignore it these days outside of head shots.

Melee game wise, Severance (aka Blade of Darkness) had the best gore, mainly becuase of it's dismemberment based on where you hit and things.
 
My small rant:

I like gorey games. The more the better, but it's best if it's realistic and not over the top. Cutting a guys arms off would result in lots of blood. Bashing a guys head in would result in lots of blood and other goop. I'd love a game where you carve up bodies and see their anatomy, maybe a butcher simulator... mmm, I've dreamed of such a game since I was 10. Would be so fun, like dissecting without all the mess and germs and sadness over killing a real creature. I'm extremely against killing in real life, animals and incest included. I'd only want to kill other people in games, or sometype of imaginary alien/monster. The other animals in our world I would have no pleasure in killing virtually.
 
Never played SoF or SoF2 but just watched some videos on youtube...

I think nostalgia might be giving you a fonder memory, because I found it to be kinda average.

True "Gritty, realistic" gore would be boring.

And even in big gore games you just start to phase it out after the first day or two.

The latest Mortal Kombat comes to mind for crazy gore, and I was ignoring it after a few hours of playing it.

Buckets of blood and limbs flying off don't even sound appealing, the hardcore players are going to turn the graphics all down, and those of us with eye candy on will just glaze over it after a few days.

Really it sounds like wasted development resources.
 
Red Orchestra 2 - like other Tripwire games before it, it will probably gain momentum as more content is released for it for free, and it being marketed at a discount when said content is available.
The pacific combat mod cant be that far away now
 
Casus said:
Never played SoF or SoF2 but just watched some videos on youtube...

I think nostalgia might be giving you a fonder memory, because I found it to be kinda average.

True "Gritty, realistic" gore would be boring.

And even in big gore games you just start to phase it out after the first day or two.

The latest Mortal Kombat comes to mind for crazy gore, and I was ignoring it after a few hours of playing it.

Buckets of blood and limbs flying off don't even sound appealing, the hardcore players are going to turn the graphics all down, and those of us with eye candy on will just glaze over it after a few days.

Really it sounds like wasted development resources.
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Average? you have to play it to get a feel for it really. The weapons affect the damage, the location, etc. Shooting someone int he head with a shotgun is different then using a pistol, etc.

You say it gets kind of boring, how is it more boring then generic damage models we usually have these days? Where at most you get a gibbed head explosion and that's that?

In SOF shooting people had a lot more variety, depending on your weapons and where you shoot them.

Wasted development time? Sure, then so is graphics in of themselves, no one needs physics , shiny Tesselation, that doesn't affect gameplay it' sjust window dressing, the same as gore.
 
Youn said:
My small rant:

I like gorey games. The more the better, but it's best if it's realistic and not over the top. Cutting a guys arms off would result in lots of blood. Bashing a guys head in would result in lots of blood and other goop. I'd love a game where you carve up bodies and see their anatomy, maybe a butcher simulator... mmm, I've dreamed of such a game since I was 10. Would be so fun, like dissecting without all the mess and germs and sadness over killing a real creature. I'm extremely against killing in real life, animals and incest included. I'd only want to kill other people in games, or sometype of imaginary alien/monster. The other animals in our world I would have no pleasure in killing virtually.
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I dont think you know what incest means, do you? :confused:

I cant fathom how that word can possibly work in your statement lol
 
Soldier of Fortune was never realistic. It was just gore in the tradition of the late-90s trend of gory first person shooters. I'd say it was even cartoony but gave kids a lot of chuckles experimenting with seeing how different weapons would cause different kinds of gore like how you have damage models on cars in modern racing games.

They really need a game where you fire a high caliber round across a guy's stomach and his guts spill out. Or hit someone in the head and his skull fractures and compresses in while his brains splatter out in a realistic pattern...oh wait maybe not. I don't really want to play that.
 
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Soldier of Fortune was a lot of things, realistic wasn't one of them.
 
SOF 2 realistic? Have you ever in real life seen someone got their leg shot off by a bullet????

It´s not realistic it´s highly exhaggerated. At the time it was kind of effectful though but yes that gimmick was the only thing that make it stand out honestly. Shooting part was quite okay I want to remember though. I jumped the last attempt.
 
Fact of the matter is shooting people in SoF was more fun than shooting people in any other game because of the hit detection + limb dismemberment. It's just weird something like that has been neglected in shooters ever since. It seems like such an obvious feature.
 
What games are really missing is the realistic effects of explosions both on the environment and people. Usually you just get a ragdoll that flies off and bounces around somewhere.

You really need a good damage model for explosive damage and burns onto human characters because of how much people like blowing up things.
 
Spare-Flair said:
What games are really missing is the realistic effects of explosions both on the environment and people. Usually you just get a ragdoll that flies off and bounces around somewhere.

You really need a good damage model for explosive damage and burns onto human characters because of how much people like blowing up things.
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Entrance and exit wounds would be nice. Also I'd like it if ridiculously powerful rounds like .50BMG did rip people apart.
 
Yeah, I do concede that SoF was never "realistic".. The technology still wasn't quite up to the task at the time. With current hardware, they could easily produce something that can emulate much more realistic effects. Granted, we are talking about computer games and we are still a fair stretch away from true realism. Sure, ballistic effects is just one of the areas that can suspend disbelief but it's also an area that really hasn't been explored that much aside from stylized effects.

I found it interesting that games like the original Far Cry had persistant bullet entry wound decals then they were toned down or completely removed with later titles.. Crysis even had ragdolls disabled after death!

A similar thing could be seen with the original Hitman.. Persistant entry wound decals were prevalent, then in Hitman 2, they were entirely removed.
 
mr_zen256 said:
Yeah, I do concede that SoF was never "realistic".. The technology still wasn't quite up to the task at the time. With current hardware, they could easily produce something that can emulate much more realistic effects. Granted, we are talking about computer games and we are still a fair stretch away from true realism. Sure, ballistic effects is just one of the areas that can suspend disbelief but it's also an area that really hasn't been explored that much aside from stylized effects.

I found it interesting that games like the original Far Cry had persistant bullet entry wound decals then they were toned down or completely removed with later titles.. Crysis even had ragdolls disabled after death!

A similar thing could be seen with the original Hitman.. Persistant entry wound decals were prevalent, then in Hitman 2, they were entirely removed.
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In most games the bodies disappear after a short time. Probably for performance reasons. Especially true on console games.
 
Push it too far and you risk your game getting an AO [or equivalent] rating, which basically means it won't make any money due to nobody wanting to sell it. I, too, lament at the fact that SOF2, released in 2002, is basically as far as detailed gore/dismemberment ever got.
 
piscian18 said:
hahahahhahahhahahaha
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I guess I don't get the "joke"... I know what incest means of course, but not sure why it was brought up, other then maybe you think I was born out of it for some reason? :confused:

I'm sure plenty of other people would enjoy playing a game where they are characters like Freddy Frueger, Leatherface, etc... and have the gore level turned up a notch. If you think that makes people "messed up" that's a pretty judgmental point of view, but I'll let you clarify first. Either way, no big deal to me.
 
Nihilanth99 said:
Push it too far and you risk your game getting an AO [or equivalent] rating
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I wonder if a Mature rated game from this day and age came out 10, 20 years ago, if it would be rated AO or not. Probably not, but maybe 30 years yeah for sure. It seems to me, in the grand scheme of things, the public is getting more and more lenient about simulated gore as time goes by.
 
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I'm tired of games where we play a guy who's seemingly invincible, who shoots/cuts through countless enemies and hardly ever dies, aka almost every RPG/Action game. That's why I was a big fan of Dwarf Fortress. In that game it wasn't about making it to the end of the story, it was about seeing how long you could survive. In one scenario I embarked on a journey in the middle of the equivalent to the Antarctic. I dug under the snow and ice and was setting up camp. I was figuring out if I could fish anywhere or how to ration the food I had when some arctic wolves came by and promptly devoured everyone. My Miner thought he was from a different game, because he took his pickaxe and started fighting the wolves. He got eaten. Scenario over.

Call me a graphics whore, but if it wasn't for tilesets, I don't think I could play a game like that sadly. Once I got the tileset it was great fun. I wish the pathing system was improved though.
 
Dan_D said:
Entrance and exit wounds would be nice. Also I'd like it if ridiculously powerful rounds like .50BMG did rip people apart.
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L4D2? The M60 literally splits zombies in half.

L4D2 was pretty fucking gory.

L4D2_Half.png
 
i remember SOF being the first game i played where i could shoot someone in the knee and the would drop to the ground, cower in pain then try to shoot you from the ground. first thing i did was find all the animations. i fondly remember it standing out in my gaming experience.

i do agree plenty of games you unload till the thing hits zero health then it died there is no in between from 100-1% health.

why cant we shoot a guys right arm, he drops his gun. some people could run in fear others would pick their gun back up fight to the end. there is plenty more they could be doing to give us better games. we seem to be fine with only having head shots mean anything for some reason.
 
It would be great if Raven (SoF devs) implemented something like what they created in the Wolverine game and translated that into an FPS. The layers and damage modelling was superb.. If they added dismemberment and a physics engine similar to Euphoria for hit detection, it would be ideal for a new entry to SoF or new IP.

I'd buy the shit outta that :D
 
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