What will Vista bring to the table?

[morningreis]

Right now, I'm pretty much thinking that Vista will not sell as well as well as XP did because IMO Microsoft got it right in XP. I think they hit a plateau in XP, provided a stable and relatively safe OS (of course precautions must be taken) and I fail to see why I should upgrade and also what Vista will showcase other than a new flashy look and DRM. The DRM part is enough to deter me from using Vista, but I've also heard OpenGL performance will be crippled and such. What is Vista really bringing to the table. Shed some light on the dark >.<

 

[djnes]

Here's a great place to start:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/features/default.mspx

 

[XOR != OR]

I agree, I think MS has reached it's peak with XP. There are just too many strikes against MS for Vista to be as sucessful.

1) DRM. Geeks have an adversion to this, but it's when Dad can't view the newest action flick on this computer that we'll start seeing a backlash. Once the public is even partially aware that DRM is not a consumer benefit, they'll revolt.

2) XP does everything a home computer needs to do. So does 2k, but it's prettier. Not the biggest thing, but when added in with everything else

3) There are how many legal battles against MS right now? How many countries are pushing MS out the door? None of this is helping their cause.

4) What's the install base of 2k? Hell, of 98 for that matter? The home market will see vista more than a corporate world will, simply because it will be preloaded on all new machines. Corporations have learned to be weary of MS updates, let alone upgrades. Updates/upgrades break their non-ms systems, often times spectacularly.

 

[KoolDrew]

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1931913,00.asp

 

[Phoenix86]

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1931913,00.asp

I was just going to post that...

 

[XOR != OR]

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1931913,00.asp

Uh...

Networking support has been extended throughout the lifetime of Windows 2000 and Windows XP, but it was getting harder and harder for Microsoft to keep improving the old code. So for Vista, they started over from ground zero and rewrote the networking stack from scratch.

I physically cringed when I read this.

Microsoft has new algorithms in the TCP/IP stack that greatly increases network throughput when packet losses are encountered.
...
The company says that anyone with a high-speed internet connection will immediately notice dramatic improvements in overall download speeds.

My pipe doesn't have lost packets, and I'd throw a fit with comcast if it did. This is generally true, so what "The company says" is marketing bullshit, pure and simple.

The most you can do to any connect is shape the stream going out, and you have no guarantee that your upstream provider won't reshape it.

The rest of it looked...ok...but it isn't going to be a big seller to your average user. Still, with nuggets like these thrown in there, I have to wonder about the author of the article.

 

[Order]

Regardless of the fact that the internet download speed comment is bullshit, I do believe that their new stack will be a very good replacement for the archaic TCP stack in XP with regards to LAN transfers and whatnot.

 

[drizzt81]

1) DRM. Geeks have an adversion to this, but it's when Dad can't view the newest action flick on this computer that we'll start seeing a backlash. Once the public is even partially aware that DRM is not a consumer benefit, they'll revolt.

I doubt it. Most people won't even understand the problem. Even if they do, the reluctance of most people to take action will do nothing.

2) XP does everything a home computer needs to do. So does 2k, but it's prettier. Not the biggest thing, but when added in with everything else

I can see a lot of room for improvement in terms of making an OS 'better'. For example, I wish there was a way to customize what is installed. Most of my Windows installs come with Accessibility tools. Neither me, nor anyone who will use my computer in the forseeable future will be using these, however I need to manually turn off the stupid shortcuts after every reinstall.

Microsoft has new algorithms in the TCP/IP stack that greatly increases network throughput when packet losses are encountered.
...
The company says that anyone with a high-speed internet connection will immediately notice dramatic improvements in overall download speeds.

I am not a networking expert by any meas, but from what I remember from my packet switching class, I am quite certain that the TCP specifications are pretty clear what a sender/ receiver is to do when a packet loss is encountered. Depending on which TCP implementation (Reno, Vegas or whatever else) certain modifications of the windows size as well as different approaches towards the increasing thereof (congestion avoidance...) have to be done. I do not see how MS' software engineers can get around this, unless they do their ususal "embrace and extend" approach, where Linux servers will not be able to host websites/ applications for windows clients anymore.

The only place where there is a lot of room for improvement in TCP performance is within wireless networks, where packet loss is not an indicator for network congestion. However any changes to the TCP behavior in that case are likely to require changes in the networking hardware (the APs for example) and a fundamental change, moving from end-to-end communications towards the APs acting as TCP proxies.

 

[ElBarto79]

Right now, I'm pretty much thinking that Vista will not sell as well as well as XP did because IMO Microsoft got it right in XP. I think they hit a plateau in XP, provided a stable and relatively safe OS (of course precautions must be taken) and I fail to see why I should upgrade and also what Vista will showcase other than a new flashy look and DRM. The DRM part is enough to deter me from using Vista, but I've also heard OpenGL performance will be crippled and such. What is Vista really bringing to the table. Shed some light on the dark >.<

People always say this sorta thing when new technology comes out, that the old tech "had it right" and there really isn't any room for improvement. But I can think of a ton of ways they could improve XP.

For example is there anyone here that thinks XP has security nailed? Ok theres one area they could work on right there.

What about boot time? the shorter they can get it the better.

How about reducing the number of situations that require a reboot, like installing new programs or patches. And reduce the number of patches we need to install while you're at it.

The GUI needs work too. On high res monitors its way to small at native resolution. If you use large fonts you end up breaking windows and message boxes and stuff. And there's lots of little things, like windows not refreshing when you move them around and stuff.

On top of that I think there is plenty of room to innovate. Maybe new forms of integration with mobile devices, innovative ways to leverage the power and features of new hardware, etc.

I could come up with plenty of other stuff. But my general point is there is plenty of room for improvement and if MS has done their homework there could certainly be compelling reasons to upgrade. We'll just have to see.

 

[Met-AL]

People always say this sorta thing when new technology comes out, that the old tech "had it right" and there really isn't any room for improvement. But I can think of a ton of ways they could improve XP.

For example is there anyone here that thinks XP has security nailed? Ok theres one area they could work on right there.

What about boot time? the shorter they can get it the better.

How about reducing the number of situations that require a reboot, like installing new programs or patches. And reduce the number of patches we need to install while you're at it.

The GUI needs work too. On high res monitors its way to small at native resolution. If you use large fonts you end up breaking windows and message boxes and stuff. And there's lots of little things, like windows not refreshing when you move them around and stuff.

On top of that I think there is plenty of room to innovate. Maybe new forms of integration with mobile devices, innovative ways to leverage the power and features of new hardware, etc.

I could come up with plenty of other stuff. But my general point is there is plenty of room for improvement and if MS has done their homework there could certainly be compelling reasons to upgrade. We'll just have to see.

Don't forget to add improvements to MineSweeper and Solitare.

Windows XP is very secure for the most part. They have made huge improvements in that category.

Rebooting...a lot of the the time that reboots are required from installs, is the fault of the software doing the installing, not WindowsXP.

Try to use divisable resolution of the native resolution if you can't see it. 1600x1200 try 800x600 1280x1024 try 640x512 etc.

Mobile devices...that is up the the manufacturer of the mobile device, not the OS.

 

[agent420]

What about boot time? the shorter they can get it the better...

Hopefully the last beta 5308 isn't representative of that; I found it talking much longer than XP. For that matter, I found the overall performance on several different types of systems mediocre at best. If 5308 was supposed to be a preview, I'll wait for now.

1) DRM. Geeks have an adversion to this, but it's when Dad can't view the newest action flick on this computer that we'll start seeing a backlash. Once the public is even partially aware that DRM is not a consumer benefit, they'll revolt.

I'm hardly a drm proponent, but I think this issue is exaggerated. We've been living with consumer drm for quite a while now... Macrovision (VHS tapes), CSS (dvd) and most recently Apple and iTunes, which has gone on to be probably the most popular base of retail downloadable content. Like it or not, drm is going to be here, and it won't stop anyone from buying products.

 

[da sponge]

Vista Benefits:

Restart Manager.

Moving drivers from kernel mode to user mode.

Least Privileged User

WIM image format for deployment.

Two way firewall.

superfetch

TCP improvements (specifically Receive window auto-tuning).

Start Menu / Explorer live preview / Sidebar / task flip.


Are these all end all and be all awesome upgrades? Probably not. Are they worthwhile improvements? Certainly.

 

[ElBarto79]

Don't forget to add improvements to MineSweeper and Solitare.

Windows XP is very secure for the most part. They have made huge improvements in that category.

Are you telling me XP could not stand to be more secure? Until the day comes that we don't even have to think about virus's or spyware at all, period, there is room for improvement. People still get virus's all the time. Peoples computers still get bogged down with spyware all the time.

Rebooting...a lot of the the time that reboots are required from installs, is the fault of the software doing the installing, not WindowsXP.

Yes, and often the software has to reboot due to limitations of the operating system it's installing on, not because that company is lazy and doesn't care that you have to reboot. MS, and only MS, is the one in a position to do something about this.

Try to use divisable resolution of the native resolution if you can't see it. 1600x1200 try 800x600 1280x1024 try 640x512 etc.

If I bought a 1600x1200 display I want to run at it at 1600x1200 because video, pictures, games, etc. all look their best. Additionally I use a lot of CAD programs and I definitely want to run them at max resolution. It's just a pain when the taskbar and everything shrinks down so small you go blind trying to use it. You need to be able to scale the GUI.

Mobile devices...that is up the the manufacturer of the mobile device, not the OS.

Manufacturers can certainly come up with their own applications but a lot of times it takes someone the size of MS throwing their weight behind something to really get the ball rolling. For example any laptop manufacturer could have designed a tablet PC and come up with their own applications to allow its use with Windows. But no one did, at least not with any real success. It wasn't until MS decided they wanted to try this whole Tablet PC thing that it got any sort of acceptance in the marketplace.

And like I said these were just a few ideas I came up with on the spot. I could come up with tons more and we could go back and forth with each individual one about whether or not it could be a potential upgrade. The fact is there are a lot, and I mean a lot, of ways to improve. Just because something works fine for you now does not mean it couldn't work better with some changes.

 

[uniwarp]

I might be biased on this matter as I used Linux for so long and have grown attached to it over the years but in all honesty I sense this DRM thing can be the last straw for many users out there. I have been to many forums to read on this subject and I just sense that with more desktop oriented efforts over the course of the last couple of years Linux is no longer viewed as the OS with a console, much has been done to improve the looks and ease of use. As of now, Mandriva, Suse, Fedora, Ubuntu are all excellent distros for internet, multimedia and office use. Heck, there is skype, nero, real player and what not....

All I am saying is that if Microsoft pisses people off with Vista and DRM, people have a lot more options to turn to instead of sticking with Windows. Apple has been gaining popularity with OS X for years as well so people might decide to give it a try, they should be able to produce their PCs at a lower cost if they decide to go mainstream thanks to their deal with Intel. So it is not like 5 years ago, when Microsoft could have it their way no matter what, people have options nowadays and I certainly hope Microsoft is aware of that and reconsidering this DRM thing.

BTW I have 5 licences for XP Pro and I am not in favor of upgrading to vista if I can't frickin play an mp3 to my liking. I will just sell them with the PCs they're loaded on and pay Novell/Suse 1/5th of the money I paid to Microsoft for a more "acceptable" OS. There is an old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it", some people haven't heard of it I guess.

 

[XOR != OR]

I'm hardly a drm proponent, but I think this issue is exaggerated. We've been living with consumer drm for quite a while now... Macrovision (VHS tapes), CSS (dvd) and most recently Apple and iTunes, which has gone on to be probably the most popular base of retail downloadable content. Like it or not, drm is going to be here, and it won't stop anyone from buying products.

I beg to differ. It has stopped several friends from purchasing Sony DVD/VHS players.

Why?

I had a friend who was piping their dvd player through their vhs player. Signal absolutely sucked, like it was scrambled or something. Plugged it directly in to the TV, worked just fine. It was only on certain DVDs it did this ( Lion King 1.5 was one ). She will never buy DVD or VHS players again from Sony simply because of this problem.

When DRM becomes obtrusive is when we will see the general public push back, and I'm betting it will be with Vista.

 

[Gorankar]

I might be biased on this matter as I used Linux for so long and have grown attached to it over the years but in all honesty I sense this DRM thing can be the last straw for many users out there. I have been to many forums to read on this subject and I just sense that with more desktop oriented efforts over the course of the last couple of years Linux is no longer viewed as the OS with a console, much has been done to improve the looks and ease of use. As of now, Mandriva, Suse, Fedora, Ubuntu are all excellent distros for internet, multimedia and office use. Heck, there is skype, nero, real player and what not....

All I am saying is that if Microsoft pisses people off with Vista and DRM, people have a lot more options to turn to instead of sticking with Windows. Apple has been gaining popularity with OS X for years as well so people might decide to give it a try, they should be able to produce their PCs at a lower cost if they decide to go mainstream thanks to their deal with Intel. So it is not like 5 years ago, when Microsoft could have it their way no matter what, people have options nowadays and I certainly hope Microsoft is aware of that and reconsidering this DRM thing.

BTW I have 5 licences for XP Pro and I am not in favor of upgrading to vista if I can't frickin play an mp3 to my liking. I will just sell them with the PCs they're loaded on and pay Novell/Suse 1/5th of the money I paid to Microsoft for a more "acceptable" OS. There is an old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it", some people haven't heard of it I guess.

I agree that the DRM comeing in Vista is a turnoff to many.. I will hold off at least a year maybe more myself..

But the fact is this.. Vista is going to be shipped on 99+% of all home computers(xcept macs) sold next year, or at least the last half of next year.. It's adoption is garanteed...
In the bussiness pc market, you will also see massive adoption, it will just take about 2 years IMHO.. Some may stay XP, some may go Linux, but in the end I believe that most will go Vista..

 

[ElBarto79]

I agree that the DRM comeing in Vista is a turnoff to many.. I will hold off at least a year maybe more myself..

But the fact is this.. Vista is going to be shipped on 99+% of all home computers(xcept macs) sold next year, or at least the last half of next year.. It's adoption is garanteed...
In the bussiness pc market, you will also see massive adoption, it will just take about 2 years IMHO.. Some may stay XP, some may go Linux, but in the end I believe that most will go Vista..

I agree. Every year people say "this is the year for Linux", it's mature enough now, it's easy to use enough now, there are enough applications for it now, etc. They've been saying that for the past 10 years and it hasn't happened. The number I often hear as a tipping point is 15% market share. Once a product reaches that level of market share other companies are forced to start supporting it. How applicable is this to Linux? I don't really know, but I don't think they are at a tipping point yet.

 

[uniwarp]

I agree. Every year people say "this is the year for Linux", it's mature enough now, it's easy to use enough now, there are enough applications for it now, etc. They've been saying that for the past 10 years and it hasn't happened. The number I often hear as a tipping point is 15% market share. Once a product reaches that level of market share other companies are forced to start supporting it. How applicable is this to Linux? I don't really know, but I don't think they are at a tipping point yet.

To tell the truth, it is not really important how good Linux is for the home user at this point. This is the OEM world of computers in a sense and most people who use computers actually don't care about the features of their operating system. It is possible for Microsoft to keep dominating the market because they have all the application/hardware support in the world and because they have all the application/hardware support in the world almost all software is coded for them and almost all manufacturers have drivers for windows. Because all the software is coded for windows and all the drivers as well, people buy windows, because people buy windows, manufacturers/programmers will keep developing for windows. I made a mess of an explanation here but it is very similar to the chicken and the egg story. Sometimes people like me, for good or silly reasons, decide to break the chain somewhere along and this is why linux is still out there and is gaining support and recognition. This is also why people keep developing the linux operating system. I value the open source ideal and ultimately I believe a community effort can/will reach the heights to compete with multi-billion dollar companies especially if Microsoft keeps insisting on features like DRM which is definately not for the benefit of the end user. You should understand that as the end user you will only benefit from Linux improving every year even if you decide to never use Linux. When Linux and other open source alternatives such as open office become a worry for Microsoft, guess who will be buying better Microsoft products at lower prices.

 

[Zamboni]

Don't forget to add improvements to MineSweeper and Solitare.

Minesweeper should scale to a 1600x1200 monitor. Think of the possibilities.

 

[agent420]

I beg to differ. It has stopped several friends from purchasing Sony DVD/VHS players.

Why?

I had a friend who was piping their dvd player through their vhs player. Signal absolutely sucked, like it was scrambled or something. Plugged it directly in to the TV, worked just fine. It was only on certain DVDs it did this ( Lion King 1.5 was one ). She will never buy DVD or VHS players again from Sony simply because of this problem.

When DRM becomes obtrusive is when we will see the general public push back, and I'm betting it will be with Vista.

I guess my point was more generic... Did it stop your friends from buying retail vhs tapes or dvd's that are in themselves constrained by drm? I don't think it is fair at this point to make the comparison of obtrusivness when all the facts are not yet known. It could well turn out that similar drm restrictions are required by all players, much like css is now required on all dvd units.

It's funny I find myself typing this, really I agree with you to a point. I still use xvid, mpc, ape, mp3 and other non drm formats myself. The problem is we have a government that is all pro-big-business and a rather uniformed general public who will just buy whatever it is they need to play whatever media providers distribute.

 

[stelleg151]

Im suprised noone has mentioned the only two reasons I will be moving to vista:

WGF2 and OCUR.

It also sounds like it might be a pretty nice OS, they started back from scratch on some of the things that needed to be started from scratch.

Now, it is lame that the two features above are forcing me to buy Vista to use them, but thats how strong MS's stranglehold on the industry is.

 

[Tutelary]

Do we really need what essentially is an "I'm not moving to Vista, here is why you shouldnt either" thread?

BTW: Sony and Disney have already stated they are not enabling the image constraint token on their titles for several years down the road, meaning other publishers in the bluray alliance most likely wont either. I dont expect DRM to be the heartache most people are making it out to be.

 

[ethos747474nikon8989]

I would like to be the guy who does a flip flop on the XP security issue here.
Is XP so secure that you can have awesome spyware and virus protection from just XP-SP2?
Yes it is that secure.

Before you all blast me read the flip side of the coin.

Does XP come that locked down out of the box? Nope it definitly doesnt do that. I think XP started to get it right with user security roles and easy user switching but it could have been made easier to use and understand the benifits of.

So far my big hope for Vista is that I will be able to shut off the animated desktop to save on memory. Anyway that's my take so feel free to flame me into oblivion.

 

[meatfestival]

DirectX10 (and DX9.L) will be the major reason for me upgrading to vista.

Also, hackers and virus/spyware/malware programmers will probably have to start from scratch if they want to target vista users, so that's a plus.