What is so hard about making a bezeless display?

AMD_Gamer

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Why can't they make a bezeless display for Eyefinity and NVIDIA Surround? top and bottom bezel is fine but the sides? I don't see why it can't easily be done.

They could make something where you can snap the side bezels on and off if you want to connect it to another display for seamless integration of 3 displays.

people were talking about this since Eyefinity was announced and i had big hoped for the Samsung thin bezel LCD's they said they were making for Eyefinity like setups, well here they are http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/samsung-and-ati-team-on-syncmaster-md230-mega-displays-for-wide/ and talk about disappointing? what is the point? they are still really thick only slightly thinner.

[H] has a lot of smart people here, we should design our own LCD, who is with me?
 
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Cali3350

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LCD's have needs. The screen needs uniform power spread and the like. Even tablets have bezels. If anything would be bezeless its them, but there not.
 

jeremyshaw

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Porbably structureal support - you have to make sure that massive board (pixels, backlight, etc) doesn't flex under it's own weight.


Small market, so far, too.
A few projection TV's were bezeless (or Fry's in Sac,CA had a massive 25ft, 16screen, bezeless display a few years back).
 

SixtyWattMan

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If it was that easy we would see it more. What is said above is correct. Try shipping an LCD with no protection for it's sides, see how it turns out. EDIT: Also, this belongs in the display forum.
 
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AndroidVageta

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Its also graphics related...

I agree with the OP...I dont see what the big deal is. Worried about shipping? Make the shipping materials better. Worried about structual integrity? Why? Some thin solid steal poles (thin enough to make bezeless) are all thats needed. I mean, dont get me wrong, Im not engineer, but I just dont see what the big deal is.

I remember the NEC LCD's from years ago had bezels just as thin or thinner than the Samsungs in the orignial post.

Sorry to the OP that I couldnt provide more, I just dont know enough about it. I do however feel very comfortable in saying that things could be better. But again as someone else said, theres just not a market for it...I mean, sure theres those with Eyefinity, buts thats like what....0001% of the public? Weak sauce.
 

Powerage

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What you should do is open your monitors, and cut out the bezel. Try it and tell us how it works out. It's that easy.
 

RamonGTP

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What you should do is open your monitors, and cut out the bezel. Try it and tell us how it works out. It's that easy.

I don't think it's that easy. Existing monitors were engineered with bezels on all sides in mind. Seriously, that was pretty retarded.
 

jeremyshaw

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I don't think it's that easy. Existing monitors were engineered with bezels on all sides in mind. Seriously, that was pretty retarded.

it was in response to the post above his...


I think


Adding more support on the back, will not change the fact that LCDs are not the stongest of things.
Ever damage a naked LCD (laptop repair ventures :()... I have. two times, both by accident. But very easy accidents.
 

SixtyWattMan

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Its also graphics related...

I agree with the OP...I dont see what the big deal is. Worried about shipping? Make the shipping materials better. Worried about structual integrity? Why? Some thin solid steal poles (thin enough to make bezeless) are all thats needed. I mean, dont get me wrong, Im not engineer, but I just dont see what the big deal is.

I remember the NEC LCD's from years ago had bezels just as thin or thinner than the Samsungs in the orignial post.

Sorry to the OP that I couldnt provide more, I just dont know enough about it. I do however feel very comfortable in saying that things could be better. But again as someone else said, theres just not a market for it...I mean, sure theres those with Eyefinity, buts thats like what....0001% of the public? Weak sauce.

Yeah displays are graphics related in that we need to see the graphics. But this is a topic on displays. I agree with Powerage, you guys who think it would be super easy should just chop the bezels off of your monitors and post your progress in the modding forum.
 

SixtyWattMan

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I want to be in charge of the lasers!

You need at least 4 lasers to blast anyone trying to sneak up on you from behind

Eyefinity without bezels and with lasers? I imagine it would be something like this.

2zyzlkz.gif
 

Hypernova

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Some thin solid steal poles (thin enough to make bezeless) are all thats needed. I mean, dont get me wrong, Im not engineer, but I just dont see what the big deal is.

The steel ring holding the glass panels together are already sub mm thick. This is from an 10 year old acer laptop I took apart. At the thinness people demand not even building the rings out of titanium can provide enough protection from side impacts.

Rear projection TVs don't have this problem as the screen at the front is just a sheet of plastic. They are just projectors and a screen in a box.
 

GushpinBob

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This happened to just cross my mind but why not buy 3 similar HD projectors, acquire access to a large, darkened room, and line up the projected images perfectly with each other (besides cost)?

Edit: Or 9 projectors? Holodeck anyone? :D
 

OmegaAvenger

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This happened to just cross my mind but why not buy 3 similar HD projectors, acquire access to a large, darkened room, and line up the projected images perfectly with each other (besides cost)?

Edit: Or 9 projectors? Holodeck anyone? :D

I bet if they ever make holodecks, the most popular programs will be pornos.... interactive pornos
 

madcap magician

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There's a post around here that shows bezel-less monitors. I looked couldn't find the post. Pretty expensive I remember.
 
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obobski

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Why can't they make a bezeless display for Eyefinity and NVIDIA Surround? top and bottom bezel is fine but the sides? I don't see why it can't easily be done.

They could make something where you can snap the side bezels on and off if you want to connect it to another display for seamless integration of 3 displays.

people were talking about this since Eyefinity was announced and i had big hoped for the Samsung thin bezel LCD's they said they were making for Eyefinity like setups, well here they are http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/samsung-and-ati-team-on-syncmaster-md230-mega-displays-for-wide/ and talk about disappointing? what is the point? they are still really thick only slightly thinner.

[H] has a lot of smart people here, we should design our own LCD, who is with me?

you do realize this is functionally impossible with an LCD, as the "Screen" that you see is not the formal boundary of the actual display element, and said display element requires structural support and wiring which doesn't just magically appear "behind" it, I think you should dismantle an LCD monitor before you proceed with any further "design"

if you don't want to deal with bezels or lines in your displays, do what the professionals do, build a video wall with front projection systems, all you have to worry about is calibration between the projectors, simple as that

if thats too much to ask, go buy an Ostendo or some other large display and be done with it

basically, if you want a seamless, continuous image, you need front projectors or a bigger display
anything else will have separations, because its multiple independent displays
 
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Why can't they make a bezeless display for Eyefinity and NVIDIA Surround? top and bottom bezel is fine but the sides? I don't see why it can't easily be done.

It's a limitation of LCD's. It just isn't possible. Flat panels made using LCD technology require backlighting and circuitry that extends past the edge of the viewable screen. The samsung setup you posted is about as good as you can get with LCD.

Truly super slim bezels are more feasible with OLED displays. OLED's don't require backlighting because the pixels themselves emit light. A manufacturer will have to purpose build OLED monitors with thinner bezels in mind though. To date most have shifted the display circuitry to the sides of the panel so they can use the whole "look how thin this display is" line.
 

RadXge

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There are other reasons but I read that the bezel protects the screen during transport. I guess that a monitor without bezel would be more fragile.
 

harmattan

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There are other reasons but I read that the bezel protects the screen during transport. I guess that a monitor without bezel would be more fragile.

This is exactly right and the main reason we haven't seen bezel-less screens. Damage from packaging and shipping costs would go up significantly.

Samsung, for example, will need to account for the increased amount of RMAs and packaging costs -- you can bet they've already done the math on this and will add it to the price. Bezel-less screens will undoubtedly go for a hefty price premium to make up from these extra costs.
 

PS3

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The future isn't multiple displays. It would make more sense to make one large single unit. You heard it here first. :D
 

alxnet2003

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Why can't they make a bezeless display for Eyefinity and NVIDIA Surround? top and bottom bezel is fine but the sides? I don't see why it can't easily be done.

They could make something where you can snap the side bezels on and off if you want to connect it to another display for seamless integration of 3 displays.

people were talking about this since Eyefinity was announced and i had big hoped for the Samsung thin bezel LCD's they said they were making for Eyefinity like setups, well here they are http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/samsung-and-ati-team-on-syncmaster-md230-mega-displays-for-wide/ and talk about disappointing? what is the point? they are still really thick only slightly thinner.

[H] has a lot of smart people here, we should design our own LCD, who is with me?

There's no way a bezelless display will survive the shipping to your doorstep. Have you seen a UPS or Fedex shipping facility? LCD's like all items, need some type of structural support. I suppose they could place some temporary structural sides that a user could remove once received but then what happens when you say, tip it over and break it? Manufacturers won't take the chance with increased warranty claims. In other words, don't count on a bezelless display.
 

PrincessFrosty

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There needs to be a market for it, currently there is not, theres a handful of people who want really high end rigs with a few bezelless panels but that's no where near enough demand to warrent the R&D manufacturing of a new display type.
 

Emura

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My understanding is that there is a certain amount of dead space on every panel around the functional part of the display. It seems to be an artifact of the manufacturing process that leaves a border of non-functional pixels, so the bezel is both for structural support and to cover up that dead space.

However, I did see a sweet rig of 9 (what I assumed to be) LCD panels in a square array with super tiny bezels, sitting behind a bar in Toronto. They were definitely less than a quarter inch thick - probably closer to an eighth. I should have taken a picture.
 

D.Y.

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You do not have to have bezeless displays to combine them into x3 setups – just modified side bezels to make the middle unit, which working surface would be slightly in front of other two appear connecting seamlessly with other two (done by rotating x1 unit 180). Requires left/right sides of a unit being different thus a manufacturing adjustment for which there is not enough market and which, more importantly, would make a single unit look rather ugly. This is already patented I think – if not please patent it and buy me a drink :)
 

RamonGTP

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Still waiting for someone to chop up their monitor and post pics...

I'm actually surprised no one has posted PHOTOchopped pics of bezeless monitors. Should be a relatively easy undertaking for those skilled in photoshop.
 

Derfnofred

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I, um, worked a bit with LCD fab during my MS--and bezel-less fabrication just doesn't make a lot of sense when you see how these panels are made up. I wouldn't mind one, but it'd be more like a naked bike with all the hardware showing than pixels right to the edge. Still cool, IMO.

Give it a couple years and 30" will be the new 24", albeit at slightly higher prices due to raw materials, not so much from manufacturing expense. The pieces of glass in a Gen 10 lcd fab are enormous before they cut them up.

The LCD paradigm is a bit different than the silicon paradigm. Fab process tolerances on a LCD are laughable compared to cmos (planarity, thickness, alignment, etc), but the size of the glass is equivalent to several hundred 300mm wafers, so maintaining a modicum of control over the entire substrate is fairly tough. Obviously, they're getting better at it all the time, and as result we'll see bigger, better LCD's. Sony's commitment to OLEDs is also pretty exciting, as those devices are kind of the grand poobah of planar direct illumination. Other than they're organic-based semiconductors which are fraught with problems. (like, oh, oxygen)

Bigger dies in CMOS are exponentially more expensive due to yield. Multiple, modular, and smaller chips makes sense in this world.

Best,
D

FYI... never look at the transistor curve of an a-Si TFT used as a driver. It made me feel a lot better about the parts I was making at the time.
 

MartinX

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The display part of an lcd panel has a "fringe" around the edges which contain the millions of connectors which drive the pixels.

They have to be spread around the edges because the back of the lcd panel needs to be as unobstructed as possible for the backlight to work optimally, and feeding them in from all sides of the screen at once helps with uniformity and shit.

The bezel is mainly there to house and protect this fringe.

So even without the bezel you still couldn't really have no gap screens, well you could, but only really as fixed installations.

OLEDs take the backlight out of the equation, so much thinner bezels should be possible, but I'm not sure even they can totally do away with the "fringe".

Even still It should be possible right now to make monitors with thinner side bezels if they really wanted, but eyefinity users who really care about the bezels are going to be a pretty small group overall, and changing manufacturing and design processes just to keep them happy is probable pretty low on the agenda of the screen makers.
 
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Dozoy

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People have said that about multiple cards, too:D

And it's not in multiple cards. No matter what, the number of single card solutions will trump the number of dual card solutions. Until scaling gets better, you won't have a large number of the demographic using dual card setups. Many on [H] seem to forget that this forum represents a very small number of gamers and PC users.
 

jeremyshaw

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And it's not in multiple cards. No matter what, the number of single card solutions will trump the number of dual card solutions. Until scaling gets better, you won't have a large number of the demographic using dual card setups. Many on [H] seem to forget that this forum represents a very small number of gamers and PC users.

yeah, then the gtx295, 9800GX2, HD3870X2, HD4870X2 came out.

Demographically, most people are stuck with POS Intel GMAs, and due to the new H55/H57 chipsets, they will continue to be stuck with those lughable little diongys.


LOL, that was like 10+ years ago in the incredible universe days

yeah, then a few of the monitors started getting out of color, and they took the whole thing down :(

The cables are still there, though. You used be able to see more of the old setup before they applied a new coat of paint.
 

Powerage

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it was in response to the post above his...


I think


Adding more support on the back, will not change the fact that LCDs are not the stongest of things.
Ever damage a naked LCD (laptop repair ventures :()... I have. two times, both by accident. But very easy accidents.
It was a response to both the post above me and the OP.

I mean, you don't think 1 company out there has thought "oh, you know what would look great? No ugly bezel so people could do sweet multimonitor setups."

Pretty much everything I wanted to say but didn't feel like typing has already been said in the posts after me. How there isn't just air and support behind the bezel, I mean. It's easier to type "try it out and tell me how it goes" than trying to convince someone it's hard to do.
 

vanilla_guerilla

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I, um, worked a bit with LCD fab during my MS--and bezel-less fabrication just doesn't make a lot of sense when you see how these panels are made up. I wouldn't mind one, but it'd be more like a naked bike with all the hardware showing than pixels right to the edge. Still cool, IMO.

Give it a couple years and 30" will be the new 24", albeit at slightly higher prices due to raw materials, not so much from manufacturing expense. The pieces of glass in a Gen 10 lcd fab are enormous before they cut them up.

The LCD paradigm is a bit different than the silicon paradigm. Fab process tolerances on a LCD are laughable compared to cmos (planarity, thickness, alignment, etc), but the size of the glass is equivalent to several hundred 300mm wafers, so maintaining a modicum of control over the entire substrate is fairly tough. Obviously, they're getting better at it all the time, and as result we'll see bigger, better LCD's. Sony's commitment to OLEDs is also pretty exciting, as those devices are kind of the grand poobah of planar direct illumination. Other than they're organic-based semiconductors which are fraught with problems. (like, oh, oxygen)

Bigger dies in CMOS are exponentially more expensive due to yield. Multiple, modular, and smaller chips makes sense in this world.

Best,
D

FYI... never look at the transistor curve of an a-Si TFT used as a driver. It made me feel a lot better about the parts I was making at the time.

all this is true, but the biggest issue with the bezel-less panel is the fact that it would just be floating in space. when you get home it might have just drifted away somewhere, and there goes your eyefinity rig, right out the fucking window (literally)
 
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