WC Kits? Are all of them useless?

Zarathustra[H]

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
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I've been toying with the idea of building a WC system for the longest time, but never actually done it.

Since its my first one, I was considering just picking up one of the many kits over on frozenCPU.

One that looked pretty appealing to me was the Swiftech H20-320 EDGE.

What do you guys think of kits like this? I'm trying to make it easier on myself by buying something with all the parts included.

I have seen a few reviews, and while all of them are positive, they haven't been performed by the sites whose testing methodologies I really trust.

I'd appreciate any input you guys can give me!

--Matt
 
Don't get a kit. if you want quick and easy get a corsair setup. Or go all out and build a proper wc setup if you have the cash.
 
Xspc rasa rs240 will kick a h50 h60 h70 h80s but. And there cheap and good
 
IMO if you piecemeal it you will get probably better quality components for about the same cost. The only people I would recommend a kit to is if you don't really care about getting the best performance for your $$ and just want to jump in without having to do a lot of research. When I first went WC I was intimidated by it all, but once you get your feet wet (heh) you'll probably be a lot more comfortable with it. Of course that's about the time you'll start realizing how you could've gotten better components and will start pricing out replacement parts anyway lol.

I went water for a long time but am now back to air. My biggest problem with air was the noise generated by the fans. My current cooling setup though is about as loud as my old Eheim pump was and still holds good temps (~55 *C on gpu, ~40*C on cpu). As an added bonus, I don't have to worry about my system springing a leak or growing stuff in the tubes. I spent about $200 all together for the cooling devices in my sig, so about the same as I would have spent on a good WC setup.

If you want to do it just to do it, I think you should put together your own kit. You will have much more satisfaction out of knowing you basically designed it for your system and it works.
 
caniba said:
Don't get a kit. if you want quick and easy get a corsair setup. Or go all out and build a proper wc setup if you have the cash.
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Devilpup said:
If you want to do it just to do it, I think you should put together your own kit. You will have much more satisfaction out of knowing you basically designed it for your system and it works.
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This seems to be the conclusion I hear.

I guess I have a lot of reading to do.

If I am going to build my own custom loop, I think I am going to go all out, and REALLY build a custom loop. Partially because it could be an interesting challenge, and partially because I get really nervous when I see all the off the shelf pumps and reservoirs inside cases with all my expensive parts...

Some questions I have:

1.) If I am going to make my own external reservoir (I am considering a 15 or 30 gallon plastic drum) are there any good submersible pumps I could put in the bottom of one of these that are either powered off of the PSU or come with the appropriate relay to turn them on? This may seem like a ridiculously large reservoir, but I kind of like the idea of having a larger mass to disperse the heat over, as it should result in very slow ramp-ups in fan speed (if fan speed is automatically controlled based on water temp)

2.) I was considering placing two radiators back to back in series and sealing the seam in order to get more surface area using the same fans (same noise). Is this a good idea or will I run into some problem I - as a noob to this - am not seeing?

3.)What fan controllers to people use? I tried an NZXT sentry on an air cooled system a while back, but I didn't like it. I felt like I didn't hae enough control over the auto settings, especially since it would never go below ~40% fan speed even when temps were really low.

I appreciate the input.

--Matt
 
I'm looking into doing the same. I used air on OC's for a decade and kept good temps. Bu tthe noise and weight of the new cpu coolers has me thinking water.
 
Zarathustra[H];1037371775 said:
2.) I was considering placing two radiators back to back in series and sealing the seam in order to get more surface area using the same fans (same noise). Is this a good idea or will I run into some problem I - as a noob to this - am not seeing?
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Swiftech makes radiators that allow you to do just that. They dont perform as well as you would think. Id rather spend a lot less and get a nice XSPC radiator 3 row radiator that cools and flows better.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1467444
 
XSPC Rasa kits are very good for the money. Those Swiftech EDGE kits are vastly overpriced, you get better prices by buying your own. Swiftech's pump/reservoir/radiator combo units make up the large part of it being overpriced. Sure, it's convenient, but you can't see the water level in the reservoir, and you pay a $50 premium just for the ability to mount a pump to a radiator. It also makes filling the system a pain if you have it mounted internally like on a HAF 932.
 
The Rasa kits are very nice. You'll even save money compared to buying everything seperate. The swiftech is also really nice. Both kits come with great parts but the swiftech is overpriced IMO. The xspc kit is a deal though.
 
Rasa kits are good, but you need to replace the tubing and fans that come with it. The tubing is pretty cheap and the fans are too loud. If you don't care about tubing or quiet, it's good to go.
 
I think I am going to go all out, and REALLY build a custom loop.
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I'd start by checking the FS/T forums. WC gear is really expensive brand new and used parts can save you a ton of money.

Stacking rads where the airflow exhaust of one becomes the intake of another isn't a very efficient idea. You're much better placing them in different locations where each has its own intake.

I'm using a Lamptron FC5v2. It sounds like you're looking for auto-fan control though. For that you can't beat the Aquacomputer Aquaero 5.

If I were you I'd look for radiators first since they generally determine what noise level you'll be running at (are you getting rads optimized for lower or high speed fans?). Then look at CPU blocks. They're generally all pretty close in performance. Stay away from EK nickel plated stuff. Personally after the whole EK being shoddy fiasco I wouldn't buy any of their stuff. The XSPC Rasa is a VERY popular CPU block due to its great performance and low price. Also check out Heatkiller 3.0 and Aquacomputer Kryos.
 
FaRKle0079 said:
I'd start by checking the FS/T forums. WC gear is really expensive brand new and used parts can save you a ton of money.

Stacking rads where the airflow exhaust of one becomes the intake of another isn't a very efficient idea. You're much better placing them in different locations where each has its own intake.

I'm using a Lamptron FC5v2. It sounds like you're looking for auto-fan control though. For that you can't beat the Aquacomputer Aquaero 5.

If I were you I'd look for radiators first since they generally determine what noise level you'll be running at (are you getting rads optimized for lower or high speed fans?). Then look at CPU blocks. They're generally all pretty close in performance. Stay away from EK nickel plated stuff. Personally after the whole EK being shoddy fiasco I wouldn't buy any of their stuff. The XSPC Rasa is a VERY popular CPU block due to its great performance and low price. Also check out Heatkiller 3.0 and Aquacomputer Kryos.
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Interesting.

Thank you for the warning about EK. What is the "EK being shoddy" fiasco? The EK full nickel block was on my list as it reviewed at the top of the list a far as cooling performance goes, but now I may be looking at something else instead...

--Matt
 
EK was having a problem with their nickel plated items. The plating wasn't done properly and they've had some cases with the plating corroding. The main page of their website has more info on it.
 
What is the "EK being shoddy" fiasco?
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EK has a mfg issue with their nickel plated blocks where due to poor plating procedures the nickel is flaking off. Some users have reported the free-floating nickel in their loop has damaged other components. EK has essentially blamed the customer by running a scientifically flawed test at some Slovenian chemical institute that blames PTNuke and Silver combined with distilled water as the cause. This obviously isn't correct though as other companies don't have issues with this combination.
 
FaRKle0079 said:
EK has a mfg issue with their nickel plated blocks where due to poor plating procedures the nickel is flaking off. Some users have reported the free-floating nickel in their loop has damaged other components. EK has essentially blamed the customer by running a scientifically flawed test at some Slovenian chemical institute that blames PTNuke and Silver combined with distilled water as the cause. This obviously isn't correct though as other companies don't have issues with this combination.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Sounds like they are unwilling to take responsibility for their products, not a good sign for the company. I likely will not be buying their stuff.
 
[quote='Zarathustra[H]

Some questions I have:

1.) If I am going to make my own external reservoir (I am considering a 15 or 30 gallon plastic drum) are there any good submersible pumps I could put in the bottom of one of these that are either powered off of the PSU or come with the appropriate relay to turn them on? This may seem like a ridiculously large reservoir, but I kind of like the idea of having a larger mass to disperse the heat over, as it should result in very slow ramp-ups in fan speed (if fan speed is automatically controlled based on water temp)

2.) I was considering placing two radiators back to back in series and sealing the seam in order to get more surface area using the same fans (same noise). Is this a good idea or will I run into some problem I - as a noob to this - am not seeing?

3.)What fan controllers to people use? I tried an NZXT sentry on an air cooled system a while back, but I didn't like it. I felt like I didn't hae enough control over the auto settings, especially since it would never go below ~40% fan speed even when temps were really low.

I appreciate the input.

--Matt[/quote]
I hope i can answer some of your questions...

1. A 30 gallon reservoir is really overkill, besides thats a lot of water to keep maintained. Water quality is everything, DI water is what i use with no "special" additives just a small strip of silver to kill microbes. The approach i used for my quad-core system was to use a 5.25" bay reservoir made of polypropylene that works quite well. Something else to keep in mind is that with an appropriately sized radiator heat dispersion shouldn't be a problem. The 30 gallon reservoir isn't un-doable but I would say somewhat impractical especially if the reservoir was to develop a leak while you are out of town. just saying....

2. Two radiators on the back is a good start, but consider this... If you set the radiators up in parallel you will reduce the flow rate in each unit by half. This would mean that the fluid moving through the radiators has more time per unit mass to transfer the thermal energy to the brass fins. This was the approach that i took, using a pair of dual 80mm radiators in parallel side by side with fans pulling air out, temps have yet to exceed 35C but normally run 27C not oc'd but running CAD programs...

3. Personally i use a rheostat and control manually, i've had good luck with a sunbeam unit... but i havn't tried any others so not exactly an endorsement. To monitor the water loop temps i use a pair of backlight digital temp displays with probes located on the radiator output and the other on the main waterblock output. Doing the temp probes that way lets me know the cooling efficiency.


Also, when it comes to kits I havn't had very good luck but If you are looking to put something simple and low end together it might be alright... Otherwise i would avoid them....
 
thaltek said:
I hope i can answer some of your questions...

1. A 30 gallon reservoir is really overkill, besides thats a lot of water to keep maintained. Water quality is everything, DI water is what i use with no "special" additives just a small strip of silver to kill microbes. The approach i used for my quad-core system was to use a 5.25" bay reservoir made of polypropylene that works quite well. Something else to keep in mind is that with an appropriately sized radiator heat dispersion shouldn't be a problem. The 30 gallon reservoir isn't un-doable but I would say somewhat impractical especially if the reservoir was to develop a leak while you are out of town. just saying....

2. Two radiators on the back is a good start, but consider this... If you set the radiators up in parallel you will reduce the flow rate in each unit by half. This would mean that the fluid moving through the radiators has more time per unit mass to transfer the thermal energy to the brass fins. This was the approach that i took, using a pair of dual 80mm radiators in parallel side by side with fans pulling air out, temps have yet to exceed 35C but normally run 27C not oc'd but running CAD programs...

3. Personally i use a rheostat and control manually, i've had good luck with a sunbeam unit... but i havn't tried any others so not exactly an endorsement. To monitor the water loop temps i use a pair of backlight digital temp displays with probes located on the radiator output and the other on the main waterblock output. Doing the temp probes that way lets me know the cooling efficiency.


Also, when it comes to kits I havn't had very good luck but If you are looking to put something simple and low end together it might be alright... Otherwise i would avoid them....
Click to expand...

Thank you, this is very helpful!

I know 30G would be a bit much for a reservoir, but I figured, if I'm sticking it on the outside, why not go big, and increase the density so it warms up slower?

Maybe the 15G drum is better.

Essentially, my thought was to put a submersible pump in the bottom of something like this in 15 or 30 gallon size:

55_gallon_closed_top_blue_large1.jpg


I'd drill holes in the lids for the hoses, and seal around the hoses with either hotglue or silicone to prevent spills.

I hadn't thought of the problem of maintaining the water, but wouldn't it take longer for a larger quantity of water to become ionized, than for a smaller quantity, especially if the top is sealed?




FaRKle0079 said:
I'm using a Lamptron FC5v2. It sounds like you're looking for auto-fan control though. For that you can't beat the Aquacomputer Aquaero 5.

If I were you I'd look for radiators first since they generally determine what noise level you'll be running at (are you getting rads optimized for lower or high speed fans?). Then look at CPU blocks.
Click to expand...

Which radiators would you recommend for low speed fans?

I figured since most of the time the system will be idling, I'd rather have something that works well at low speeds, and then if I need to push some more air if it gets hot, then so be it.
 
Which radiators would you recommend for low speed fans?

I figured since most of the time the system will be idling, I'd rather have something that works well at low speeds, and then if I need to push some more air if it gets hot, then so be it.
Click to expand...

For looks: HW Labs SR-1 series, for performance/price go with the XSPC RX series.
 
thaltek said:
2. Two radiators on the back is a good start, but consider this... If you set the radiators up in parallel you will reduce the flow rate in each unit by half. This would mean that the fluid moving through the radiators has more time per unit mass to transfer the thermal energy to the brass fins.
Click to expand...

This is not the way it works. Thermal transfer occurs primarily through molecules bumping into each other, which is facilitated by a higher flow rate and/or more turbulence. Slowing it down will most likely result in worse performance.

Also consider that any given water molecule is going to spend roughly the same amount of time in a radiator whether you go parallel or serial. In a parallel setup, it's going to spend twice as long in a radiator, but it's only going through one radiator per trip around the loop (vs. two in a serial setup), so in effect it's spending the exact same amount of time in a radiator. All you've done is slow down the flow rate, which, as mentioned, is not what you want.


As for stacking rads - usually not a good idea, particularly if you're not going to be using more powerful fans. Skinee's testing shows the Swiftech MCR-S stacked rads to actually perform worse than a single MCR at fan speeds under 1800rpm, and really only 10% or so better at high speeds (2800rpm). Really, you're much better off doubling up on fans for a push-pull setup on a single rad instead. You might think it'd be noisier with double the fans, but actually, the fans won't have to work as hard to push air through the rad so you can run them slower, resulting in less overall noise.

If you're going for a low speed-optimized, low FPI rad (under 11-12 FPI), push-pull probably won't result in as much of a performance increase as it would on a medium or higher FPI rad.
 
I hope this isn't too far afield.

So what if you were to take 2 rx360 and face the nozzle toward each other. Separate the nozzles sides of the two rads by some distance say the width of a 92 mm fan. Connect the rads so they form a single loop. Put 90 bends upward one input, one output. Use abs/metal to form a long thin box with the 2 rads forming 2 sides and the line of 92's a third. Add quick disconnects to the box attached to the 90's. Put (3) 120mm fans on the outside of each rad blowing inward. Question? At at say 800-1000 rpm speeds on the (6) 120's what speed would the (4) 92mm need to run to result in negligible back pressure inside the box?
 
Not all kits are bad. I have a Zalman Reserator V1 kit, and Ive been using it for almost 7 years, just fine. The cooling kit actually outlasted the system it was running in.
 
Autochthon said:
I hope this isn't too far afield.

So what if you were to take 2 rx360 and face the nozzle toward each other. Separate the nozzles sides of the two rads by some distance say the width of a 92 mm fan. Connect the rads so they form a single loop. Put 90 bends upward one input, one output. Use abs/metal to form a long thin box with the 2 rads forming 2 sides and the line of 92's a third. Add quick disconnects to the box attached to the 90's. Put (3) 120mm fans on the outside of each rad blowing inward. Question? At at say 800-1000 rpm speeds on the (6) 120's what speed would the (4) 92mm need to run to result in negligible back pressure inside the box?
Click to expand...

The amount of airflow getting through the rads depends greatly on the specific radiators and fans used. There's no real way to know how well this would work short of actually testing it.

Edit: thinking about this a bit, I think it would be a good idea to put a baffle between the rads to keep the airflow separate... reason for that is the air streams are going to run right into each other, creating a bunch of turbulence and a high pressure area... probably won't be good for noise or performance. I knocked out a couple ideas in sketchup, which you can see here, one is open only on one side, the other on both.
 
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any thoughts on the new elite kits with the new pump block combo? saw good reviews of that block
 
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