WannaCrypt Makes an Easy Case for Linux

[heatlesssun]

You see, I don't think you're being honest. Nvidia's 3D vision has Linux support:

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2652/~/is-3d-vision-supported-in-linux?

My guess is that you never even tried to get Linux to run. You just assumed it wouldn't run and gave up. You lose a great number of points for that one, sir.

LOL! That was from 7 years ago and only for Quadros. Here's something much more recent however that says the same thing about Quadro only support: https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/971012/stereoscopic-3d-with-geforce-on-linux/. Sometimes you guys are too much, like I've told you how much I've looked into this stuff then you present some BS link that only reinforces EXACTLY what I was saying.

And maybe there is a way to hack this up and make it work. Which then leads to A) No games that ever supported 3D Vision in Linux and B) No 3D BD playback without ripping and whatever else that's 10 times harder than just popping a disk in and playing.

I've been thinking through this stuff for a LONG time. You're not going to in five seconds find a web search result with all the answers.

 

[Qchan]

LOL! That was from 7 years ago and only for Quadros. Here's something much more recent however that says the same thing about Quadro only support: https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/971012/stereoscopic-3d-with-geforce-on-linux/. Sometimes you guys are too much, like I've told you how much I've looked into this stuff then you present some BS link that only reinforces EXACTLY what I was saying.

And maybe there is a way to hack this up and make it work. Which then leads to A) No games that ever supported 3D Vision in Linux and B) No 3D BD playback without ripping and whatever else that's 10 times harder than just popping a disk in and playing.

I've been thinking through this stuff for a LONG time. You're not going to in five seconds find a web search result with all the answers.

Maybe... But let's get down to the bottom of it, shall we? Why not just use both? Use Windows for games and use Linux for everything else.

Look. I'm a PC gaming enthusiast. I have a gaming rig running Windows 10. I'm an AMD fan, so I run an AMD FX 8350 with 2x R9 290s running in Crossfire. Nothing too fancy, but runs all my games at 60 fps. I plan on building a rig possibly using ThreadRipper (or an Ryzen 1700x), running maybe a pair of Vegas (once I figure out how powerful they are.... I am an AMD fan after all).

So, I certainly understand your plight when it comes to gaming. So, to get around all of that, I simply use Windows for gaming. I don't trust it for anything else. My question to you is... Why don't you do this? I'm sure it makes sense to you to do it, right?

 

[Qchan]

linux is way better than windows. but not user friendly.. thats is the only problem..!!

Linux is quite user friendly. ChromeOS runs on the Linux kernel. They currently use Chromebooks in schools, and students and teachers alike love it. If Linux wasn't user friendly, it wouldn't be used.

 

[Chuklr]

Maybe... But let's get down to the bottom of it, shall we? Why not just use both? Use Windows for games and use Linux for everything else.

Look. I'm a PC gaming enthusiast. I have a gaming rig running Windows 10. I'm an AMD fan, so I run an AMD FX 8350 with 2x R9 290s running in Crossfire. Nothing too fancy, but runs all my games at 60 fps. I plan on building a rig possibly using ThreadRipper (or an Ryzen 1700x), running maybe a pair of Vegas (once I figure out how powerful they are.... I am an AMD fan after all).

So, I certainly understand your plight when it comes to gaming. So, to get around all of that, I simply use Windows for gaming. I don't trust it for anything else. My question to you is... Why don't you do this? I'm sure it makes sense to you to do it, right?

A nice balanced post that is not far off, it at all, from the many posts Heatlesssun has made, i.e., use what works best for you and what you choose to use.

EDIT: add the blurb that follows "made".

 

[heatlesssun]

Maybe... But let's get down to the bottom of it, shall we? Why not just use both? Use Windows for games and use Linux for everything else.

Look. I'm a PC gaming enthusiast. I have a gaming rig running Windows 10. I'm an AMD fan, so I run an AMD FX 8350 with 2x R9 290s running in Crossfire. Nothing too fancy, but runs all my games at 60 fps. I plan on building a rig possibly using ThreadRipper (or an Ryzen 1700x), running maybe a pair of Vegas (once I figure out how powerful they are.... I am an AMD fan after all).

So, I certainly understand your plight when it comes to gaming. So, to get around all of that, I simply use Windows for gaming. I don't trust it for anything else. My question to you is... Why don't you do this? I'm sure it makes sense to you to do it, right?

It all boils down to particular situations and what individual needs and wants are. Generalizations can be make like "Use Windows for gaming and Linux for everything else." and of course that will work for some percentage of people, maybe most PC users. But setting up such a process isn't necessarily easy. For people with basic needs outside of gaming they'll have the most success. The more one does with their PCs which means more applications and hardware that are often not Linux compatible, the much more complicated it gets.

Even if I threw away every game I had that was Windows compatible and fully migrated to Linux for gaming, I have to have Office, that's what we use at work. Even if I threw away Excel and Word, I have over 10 years of info in OneNote. That one personally is critical and there's nothing in Linux that I know of that does what does. Even if I went and converted all of those notes into something Linux compatible, ok, lets say I did. Just bought a Logitech Brio, not supported yet. When it's all said and done, the amount of work to do this type of migration and the cost of things that were working perfectly well that get tossed for who knows what's available in Linux that does the same job as well.

If you're dedicated to running Linux and if you avoid running hardware and software that isn't Linux compatible or not fully supported then sure, it's easy. If one just does what they want with they PCs in terms of using whatever available software and hardware there is and didn't factor "Must be Linux compatible" into the equation, again, just a lot more work with unknown results until you do all of that work.

I am being as reasonable and practical about this as can be. I study this stuff and research it constantly and I'm just stating the obvious to a reasonable person. I'm not saying at all that I'm a typical PC user. I've said constantly those with the most basic needs shouldn't have many problems and that the problems escalate as one does more that may or may not be Linux compatible or have a good Linux alternative. I just don't how much more reasonable and fair can a person be about any subject.

 

[heatlesssun]

Linux is quite user friendly. ChromeOS runs on the Linux kernel. They currently use Chromebooks in schools, and students and teachers alike love it. If Linux wasn't user friendly, it wouldn't be used.

ChromeOS is not GNU/Linux. It's a locked down device that runs the Chrome browser on top of a Linux kernel.

 

[Qchan]

It all boils down to particular situations and what individual needs and wants are. Generalizations can be make like "Use Windows for gaming and Linux for everything else." and of course that will work for some percentage of people, maybe most PC users. But setting up such a process isn't necessarily easy. For people with basic needs outside of gaming they'll have the most success. The more one does with their PCs which means more applications and hardware that are often not Linux compatible, the much more complicated it gets.

You say this a lot, but you haven't shown me what business need you had that Linux could not satisfy. You seem to only mention gaming, so I compromised with you by revealing that I use Windows only for gaming (which I've actually mentioned earlier on this thread). Yet, even outside of the realm of gaming, you're pointing to some mysterious incompatibility problem that no one seems to know but you. So... What are these mysterious incompatibility problems? Can you realistically point these out, please?

Even if I threw away every game I had that was Windows compatible and fully migrated to Linux for gaming, I have to have Office, that's what we use at work. Even if I threw away Excel and Word, I have over 10 years of info in OneNote. That one personally is critical and there's nothing in Linux that I know of that does what does. Even if I went and converted all of those notes into something Linux compatible, ok, lets say I did. Just bought a Logitech Brio, not supported yet. When it's all said and done, the amount of work to do this type of migration and the cost of things that were working perfectly well that get tossed for who knows what's available in Linux that does the same job as well.

So, what you're saying is that you shoeboxed yourself into one particular ecosystem - and you are reluctant to find any alternatives. You mentioned Microsoft One Note. EverNote is a wonderful alternative to One Note (and works better in my opinion).

The Logitech Brio is not easily made available in the United States. So, I cannot speak much about it. However, it seems as though you've invested into Windows quite heavily. You've also shoeboxed yourself into that ecosystem, and thus, you've made it difficult for yourself to migrate to any non-Windows platform. If you, say, wanted to switch to Apple's products, you'd be hardpressed to. So, this isn't a Linux specific problem. This is an end user problem who made his workload Windows specific.

If you're dedicated to running Linux and if you avoid running hardware and software that isn't Linux compatible or not fully supported then sure, it's easy. If one just does what they want with they PCs in terms of using whatever available software and hardware there is and didn't factor "Must be Linux compatible" into the equation, again, just a lot more work with unknown results until you do all of that work.

I'm going to come at this from another angle. It's going to feel like I'm contradicting my point, but I'm not. I rewording what I'm saying so you can understand me better....

When you're using a Macintosh, you don't just close your eyes, spin in a circle, and just buy any PC software or equipment your finger points to. You look at what is compatible, right? Linux is more compatible than Windows when it comes to hardware, but it's best to double check that the device or software you're going to invest in has multi platform compatibility. Linux isn't compatible with everything. Every PC user, whether it's a user who uses Macintoshes or a Linux platform, ALWAYS checks that the things they're buying is compatible. Windows users, because they think everything should just work with everything, do not bother to do this. They then check out Linux and assume that Linux should work with everything Windows works with and complain when it does not. Like I've mentioned before, Linux is compatible with more hardware, but it's not compatible with everything.

I've mentioned this before and I believe this bears repeating, but you have essentially shoeboxed yourself into Microsoft's walled garden, and you've made it nearly impossible to get out. This is NOT a Linux issue. This is an end user issue. I cannot stress this enough.

I am being as reasonable and practical about this as can be. I study this stuff and research it constantly and I'm just stating the obvious to a reasonable person. I'm not saying at all that I'm a typical PC user. I've said constantly those with the most basic needs shouldn't have many problems and that the problems escalate as one does more that may or may not be Linux compatible or have a good Linux alternative. I just don't how much more reasonable and fair can a person be about any subject.

And if Microsoft decided today to make its' products more expensive and incompatible with all of its older versions, YOU would be forced to cough up the extra dime AND you'd be forced to migrate anyway. This isn't really a Linux problem.

ChromeOS is not GNU/Linux. It's a locked down device that runs the Chrome browser on top of a Linux kernel.

I never said ChromeOS ran GNU/Linux. I said it runs on the Linux kernel.

 

[heatlesssun]

You say this a lot, but you haven't shown me what business need you had that Linux could not satisfy. You seem to only mention gaming, so I compromised with you by revealing that I use Windows only for gaming (which I've actually mentioned earlier on this thread). Yet, even outside of the realm of gaming, you're pointing to some mysterious incompatibility problem that no one seems to know but you. So... What are these mysterious incompatibility problems? Can you realistically point these out, please?

I've mentioned a number of things. MS Office, that's huge one and as much as people say LibreOffice is just fine, I have both installed on a number of machines, they just aren't the same across a number thing. Then there's things I use but not constantly like Adode Acrobat, OmniPage, etc. There's nothing mysterious about these things and they are mentioned all of the time as problems.

So, what you're saying is that you shoeboxed yourself into one particular ecosystem - and you are reluctant to find any alternatives. You mentioned Microsoft One Note. EverNote is a wonderful alternative to One Note (and works better in my opinion).

Just like people here shoebox themselves into using on Linux compatible stuff. Windows simply has a much larger ecosystem. I follow Linux and FOSS software most of the good stuff there is cross-platform so it's macOS and Windows compatible. That's just not the case with a lot of top line commercial software.

The Logitech Brio is not easily made available in the United States. So, I cannot speak much about it. However, it seems as though you've invested into Windows quite heavily. You've also shoeboxed yourself into that ecosystem, and thus, you've made it difficult for yourself to migrate to any non-Windows platform. If you, say, wanted to switch to Apple's products, you'd be hardpressed to. So, this isn't a Linux specific problem. This is an end user problem who made his workload Windows specific.

I got mine at a local Best Buy, so not that hard to buy of the shelf in a retail store. It was on sale so I picked it up. So because something isn't Linux compatible, that's shoeboxing. But when the overwhelming majority of hardware and software is Windows compatible with much iffier Linux support, that's not being shoeboxed? The problem isn't shoeboxing, but Linux support.

When you're using a Macintosh, you don't just close your eyes, spin in a circle, and just buy any PC software or equipment your finger points to. You look at what is compatible, right? Linux is more compatible than Windows when it comes to hardware, but it's best to double check that the device or software you're going to invest in has multi platform compatibility.

Linux isn't compatible with everything. Every PC user, whether it's a user who uses Macintoshes or a Linux platform, ALWAYS checks that the things they're buying is compatible. Windows users, because they think everything should just work with everything, do not bother to do this. They then check out Linux and assume that Linux should work with everything Windows works with and complain when it does not. Like I've mentioned before, Linux is compatible with more hardware, but it's not compatible with everything.

I've mentioned this before and I believe this bears repeating, but you have essentially shoeboxed yourself into Microsoft's walled garden, and you've made it nearly impossible to get out. This is NOT a Linux issue. This is an end user issue. I cannot stress this enough.

That Brio camera is macOS and ChromeOS compatible though all of its capabilities are only supported under Windows 10. I've been buying computer hardware for over 30 years, I get what you're saying. But the latest and greatest hardware, it's just often not Linux compatible, especially right away. It may become that way in time but even if it does who knows how good the support will be.

And if Microsoft decided today to make its' products more expensive and incompatible with all of its older versions, YOU would be forced to cough up the extra dime AND you'd be forced to migrate anyway. This isn't really a Linux problem.

And that claim is made all of the time and millage varies. But all the hardware I currently own that I had running under Windows 7 that I still have runs under 10. I can't think of anything I had to spend money to replace to move to 10. Again, millage varies on this. But it's not generally going to be a problem for most people with fairly common or well supported hardware.

I never said ChromeOS ran GNU/Linux. I said it runs on the Linux kernel.

Ok, but you can't use ChromeOS as a way to GNU/Linux is user-friendly. The kernel has little to do with the user experience between the two.

But here it is again with pro-desktop Linux overselling it. I'd been looking into 3D Vision support for years, understand how iffy that is on Linux so you spend 10 seconds on web search and that's it, I don't know what I'm talking, a seven year old link for not even the right hardware . And it's not like I shoeboxed myself in with two 1080 Tis.

Windows is mature and well supported on the desktop, it just is. And that support for new stuff especially is just way better than Linux. And it's obvious and why is also. But for whatever reason, when this stuff is pointed out it's just reams of excuses and people who spend lots of money on hardware can't read labels and anything other than "Yeah, that's a weakness with desktop Linux that needs to improve."

 

[Qchan]

I've mentioned a number of things. MS Office, that's huge one and as much as people say LibreOffice is just fine, I have both installed on a number of machines, they just aren't the same across a number thing. Then there's things I use but not constantly like Adode Acrobat, OmniPage, etc. There's nothing mysterious about these things and they are mentioned all of the time as problems.

Libreoffice is more compatible to Microsoft Office than Microsoft Office is to itself. In Libreoffice, I can still read Microsoft Office 97 documents. In the latest version of Office, you cannot do this. Yet, you complain about Office compatibility. This is called an oxymoron. Like I've mentioned before, you've shoeboxed yourself into Microsoft's walled garden and you've become totally reliant on Microsoft's products and ecosystem. This is not a Linux issue, but an end user issue.

You then mention Adobe Acrobat.... Are you kidding here? Were you aware that you can read and create PDF files in Linux? I create PDF files all the time using Libreoffice. I can read PDF files using several applications in Linux. One of note is Evince. OmniPage was another application you mentioned. Once again, Libreoffice and even Gimp does this, and as far as document conversion goes, supports far many more documents than OmniPage does.

Just like people here shoebox themselves into using on Linux compatible stuff. Windows simply has a much larger ecosystem. I follow Linux and FOSS software most of the good stuff there is cross-platform so it's macOS and Windows compatible. That's just not the case with a lot of top line commercial software.

Nobody in the Linux community shoeboxes themselves into Linux. The software in Linux is open source for the most part, and is available on other systems. The biggest reason to running applications on Linux is based on the operating system itself. This is a concept most Windows users do not understand - to be able to use an operating system based on the merits of that operating system and not the software that runs on top of it.

As far as Microsoft's ecosystem. The ecosystem is much smaller than you think. You see, Windows primarily runs as a desktop OS. On the server side of things, Linux is ran. Linux is also ran on more super computers, military equipment, smart phones, tablets and several other devices than Windows. The ecosystem for Linux is quite vast, but because you're only looking at it from your limited perspective, you're failing to see that Windows ecosystem is very tiny. Also, a lot of commercial software is jumping onto the cloud. Many things you would normally do offline are being done online through a browser. Gone are the days when people walked into a brick and mortar store to buy software. Software is now relegated to a website. Heck, at my company, our monitoring tools are hosted on a Linux server and made available through a browser. It is what it is.

I got mine at a local Best Buy, so not that hard to buy of the shelf in a retail store. It was on sale so I picked it up. So because something isn't Linux compatible, that's shoeboxing. But when the overwhelming majority of hardware and software is Windows compatible with much iffier Linux support, that's not being shoeboxed? The problem isn't shoeboxing, but Linux support.

You're missing the point. You're shoeboxing yourself because you are reliant on Microsoft products and saying that because Microsoft products aren't available on Linux, you can't make the switch. The reality is, you CAN make the switch, but you don't want to. Therefore, you are shoeboxing yourself in. Has nothing to do with "Microsoft compatibility", because those days are gone. The overwhelming vast majority of hardware is compatible to Linux, because it's Linux that's running hardware in very expensive data centers. It's Linux that is making money for corporations. Not Windows. This is one of the reasons why Microsoft is slowly backing away from their operating system division and going into advertising. If a company wants to be competitive, they're going to support Linux. That's just what it is whether you like it or not.

That Brio camera is macOS and ChromeOS compatible though all of its capabilities are only supported under Windows 10. I've been buying computer hardware for over 30 years, I get what you're saying. But the latest and greatest hardware, it's just often not Linux compatible, especially right away. It may become that way in time but even if it does who knows how good the support will be.

If the Brio is compatible to ChromeOS, then it's compatible to all of Linux. Why? Because the architecture is all the same. The Brio doesn't appear to be marketed in the US, so I can't say much about it.

Yes, you've been _buying_ computer hardware for over 30 years. That doesn't mean you were informed on what you were buying for 30 years...

And that claim is made all of the time and millage varies. But all the hardware I currently own that I had running under Windows 7 that I still have runs under 10. I can't think of anything I had to spend money to replace to move to 10. Again, millage varies on this. But it's not generally going to be a problem for most people with fairly common or well supported hardware.

But how can you speak for most people but then say mileage varies? Does that mean this is what most people are experiencing? Of course not. Windows 10 is built differently than Windows 7. For my devices to work, I had to use special device drivers designed specifically for Windows 10. I think the issue is you love Windows so much that you're willing to make any excuse you can to not use anything else. It's hurting you in the long run.

Ok, but you can't use ChromeOS as a way to GNU/Linux is user-friendly. The kernel has little to do with the user experience between the two.

But here it is again with pro-desktop Linux overselling it. I'd been looking into 3D Vision support for years, understand how iffy that is on Linux so you spend 10 seconds on web search and that's it, I don't know what I'm talking, a seven year old link for not even the right hardware . And it's not like I shoeboxed myself in with two 1080 Tis.

Windows is mature and well supported on the desktop, it just is. And that support for new stuff especially is just way better than Linux. And it's obvious and why is also. But for whatever reason, when this stuff is pointed out it's just reams of excuses and people who spend lots of money on hardware can't read labels and anything other than "Yeah, that's a weakness with desktop Linux that needs to improve."

1) Yes you can. You're problem is that you don't understand Linux or how it functions. This is pretty obvious based on our conversations.

2) You're still stuck on your 3D Vision issue. You didn't mention the hardware. You only said "3D Vision". So, I gave you information on 3D vision. Now you want to say the link is too old. I think the issue is that you don't understand Linux well enough to have actually have known what needed to be done to remedy whatever issue you had with 3D Vision. Once again, a end user problem.

3) Windows is far from mature. It's still very unstable and buggy. Windows is also far from well supported. The _brand_ may be supported by Microsoft. However, the OS is not. Otherwise, you'd have to explain the EOL on Windows XP, Windows 7, WIndows 8.1, and heck, even Windows Vista. These are unsupported Windows platforms. If you spent your money on any of these platforms, then you're SOL, because now you have to spend your money again.

And here you're trying to say Windows is better, yet you've said nothing to back up this statement other than your personal struggles with getting your favorite Windows software and poorly researched hardware to function. I don't really see how that's fair.

 

[heatlesssun]

Libreoffice is more compatible to Microsoft Office than Microsoft Office is to itself. In Libreoffice, I can still read Microsoft Office 97 documents. In the latest version of Office, you cannot do this.

Not sure what you're talking about because that's not true.

Yet, you complain about Office compatibility. This is called an oxymoron. Like I've mentioned before, you've shoeboxed yourself into Microsoft's walled garden and you've become totally reliant on Microsoft's products and ecosystem. This is not a Linux issue, but an end user issue.

And one can run whatever Office suite they want on Windows so how is that sandboxing? The problem is that MS Office is actually a far better product than many pro-desktop Linux folks realize, then when specific issues are pointed out with other versions "You sandboxed yourself." No, I keep my options open on the software side.

You then mention Adobe Acrobat.... Are you kidding here? Were you aware that you can read and create PDF files in Linux? I create PDF files all the time using Libreoffice. I can read PDF files using several applications in Linux. One of note is Evince. OmniPage was another application you mentioned. Once again, Libreoffice and even Gimp does this, and as far as document conversion goes, supports far many more documents than OmniPage does.

I don't even use Acrobat for reading PDFs, my favorite for that is Xodo. But Acrobat for creating PDFs, that's another story. And I can use any of the tools you mention do to that, LibreOffice, MS Office does it. But for editing PDFs and creating Acrobat has things like OCR and good document scanner support. LibreOffice doesn't support that.

Nobody in the Linux community shoeboxes themselves into Linux.

If you only use software and hardware that's Linux compatible of course you do.

The software in Linux is open source for the most part, and is available on other systems. The biggest reason to running applications on Linux is based on the operating system itself. This is a concept most Windows users do not understand - to be able to use an operating system based on the merits of that operating system and not the software that runs on top of it.

But applications are where people spend the overwhelming majority of their time when working or playing. The merits of the OS are meaningless if the task cannot be accomplished because of software or hardware support issues.

As far as Microsoft's ecosystem. The ecosystem is much smaller than you think. You see, Windows primarily runs as a desktop OS.

Except we're talking about the desktop client. We run plenty of Linux servers at work. No one is debating Linux on servers.

You're missing the point. You're shoeboxing yourself because you are reliant on Microsoft products and saying that because Microsoft products aren't available on Linux, you can't make the switch.

Except the vast majority of the products ARE NOT MADE BY MICROSOFT.

If the Brio is compatible to ChromeOS, then it's compatible to all of Linux. Why? Because the architecture is all the same. The Brio doesn't appear to be marketed in the US, so I can't say much about it.

https://community.logitech.com/s/question/0D53100006aNKsvCAG/4k-brio-use-in-linux

Yes, you've been _buying_ computer hardware for over 30 years. That doesn't mean you were informed on what you were buying for 30 years...

It's simply not possible for someone to use that amount of hardware for all kinds of stuff and not be aware of at least things like basic compatibility.

I think the issue is you love Windows so much that you're willing to make any excuse you can to not use anything else. It's hurting you in the long run.

LOL! That's nonsense. Most of the stuff that I have that's not Linux compatible isn't made by Microsoft. Hell my Microsoft Surface devices are more compatible with Linux and their capabilities than Linux is with that of my sig rig.

1) Yes you can. You're problem is that you don't understand Linux or how it functions. This is pretty obvious based on our conversations.

What the hell about how Linux functions has to do with supporting hardware and software that's not Linux compatible?

2) You're still stuck on your 3D Vision issue.

Because it's typical Linux supporters thinking that they no more than everyone else, even stuff they've never touched when people have spent effort looking into an issue. Time and time and time again, there's another thread going with other people making exactly the observation. Something I've looked into now and then for seven years, you never heard of it, but no, blame users. Just because someone uses desktop Linux doesn't mean they done everything and know everything about PCs, especially people who have been doing this shit for decades. I know I don't know everything, indeed the older I get the more I realize what I don't know. Linux folks never seem to learn that lesson.

3) Windows is far from mature. It's still very unstable and buggy.

It supports millions or programs across all sorts of domains and is well supported by countless vendors and has been for decades. That's mature. Meanwhile we're still waiting on Linux to become a thing on Steam, 4 years after it was launched.

Windows is also far from well supported. The _brand_ may be supported by Microsoft. However, the OS is not. Otherwise, you'd have to explain the EOL on Windows XP, Windows 7, WIndows 8.1, and heck, even Windows Vista. These are unsupported Windows platforms. If you spent your money on any of these platforms, then you're SOL, because now you have to spend your money again.

And except for Vista each one of those Windows versions has more users than all desktop Linux distro combined? Yes, Windows is a commercial product and versions aren't supported forever, never have been.

And here you're trying to say Windows is better, yet you've said nothing to back up this statement other than your personal struggles with getting your favorite Windows software and poorly researched hardware to function. I don't really see how that's fair.

Right, I have nothing to back that up other than thousands of dollars in games and other software, an $800 VR headset, $200 webcam that aren't Linux compatible.

 

[Simmonz]

linux is way better than windows. but not user friendly.. thats is the only problem..!!

Depends on the user. Let's face it, some people won't be able to properly use any OS. Most of my customers where I work can't even use Windows properly. Back when I did tech support for Apple every day at least a few people I would ask to restart the Mac and they would ask how so I would say to click the apple in the top left and they couldn't find it. Some people are just hopeless.

I convinced my boss at work to put Linux on 3 used systems we had that were XP and Vista era systems that they didn't want to spring for a Windows license for. All 3 have sold and not one person has called with questions. Not saying they never will but some people are just hopeless.

 

[heatlesssun]

I convinced my boss at work to put Linux on 3 used systems we had that were XP and Vista era systems that they didn't want to spring for a Windows license for. All 3 have sold and not one person has called with questions. Not saying they never will but some people are just hopeless.

And that's just how it is. I'm not saying that no one can use Linux and that it doesn't have advantages over Windows. But what in the hell is the point in telling people who have put effort into looking into what does and doesn't work they're just wrong? And so say that Linux hardware support is better than Windows on new hardware I think boarder line nuts. I mean, you go buy the hardware and there are the logos for Windows and a lot of times macOS with no generally mention of Linux, just look at any kind of PC accessory compatibility on the damned box. Everything I buy I check for compatibility, from games to webcams to Bluetooth device. Every damned thing. But if I want or need to do something being a Windows user, why should I not by something because it's not Linux compatible? That's not call nor my problem.

Stop blaming users and get manufacturers to better support Linux.

 

[tetris42]

linux is way better than windows. but not user friendly.. thats is the only problem..!!

Yes and no. I actually think Linux can be even better than Windows for a basic user. If you just need to get on the internet, type some papers, watch a movie, Linux can be even easier than Windows. It's come a long ways for getting it's foot in the door. It's when you start using your computer for a whole lot of different things and need game compatibility or specific software functionality that Linux can turn into a nightmare for the end user.

 

[Qchan]

Not sure what you're talking about because that's not true.

It's very true, because I've ran into this very issue myself. Office 2013 is not compatible with older versions. I tried to open a Microsoft Office 97 document concerning World of Warcraft gear spec'ing. When it opened, it first complained, but when I forced it to open it up, it was completely unreadable. However, when I opened it in Libreoffice, it was perfect. I then googled what the issue was, and lo and behold, Office 2013 was not compatible with older versions of Office.

And one can run whatever Office suite they want on Windows so how is that sandboxing? The problem is that MS Office is actually a far better product than many pro-desktop Linux folks realize, then when specific issues are pointed out with other versions "You sandboxed yourself." No, I keep my options open on the software side.

Except they can't. If I wanted to install Office 97 just to open my WoW Spec List, I'd have to pirate it. There's no way I could purchase such an old version of Office from Microsoft. It's no longer sold or supported. Also, it would be ridiculous to buy an old version of Office just to open a few documents. It's best to just find something that's compatible to everything, such as Libreoffice.

I don't even use Acrobat for reading PDFs, my favorite for that is Xodo. But Acrobat for creating PDFs, that's another story. And I can use any of the tools you mention do to that, LibreOffice, MS Office does it. But for editing PDFs and creating Acrobat has things like OCR and good document scanner support. LibreOffice doesn't support that.

Yet CuneiForm is an open source Linux application that does OCR. Like I've mentioned before, you're making a lot of excuses, but the funny thing about it is... I don't understand why....

If you only use software and hardware that's Linux compatible of course you do.

Which I've just got done saying that most of the software in Linux is available on other platforms. So... No.

But applications are where people spend the overwhelming majority of their time when working or playing. The merits of the OS are meaningless if the task cannot be accomplished because of software or hardware support issues.

And here is where your ignorance comes into play. The OS is the most important program on your computer. If the OS does not function correctly, then your applications and supported hardware cannot function correctly. This is what Linux users try to tell Windows users all the time, but they don't seem to understand.

Except we're talking about the desktop client. We run plenty of Linux servers at work. No one is debating Linux on servers.

I'm talking about Linux and Windows together as a platform.

Except the vast majority of the products ARE NOT MADE BY MICROSOFT.

But you're talking about Windows-only products under Microsoft's own ecosystem that you've caged yourself in.

https://community.logitech.com/s/question/0D53100006aNKsvCAG/4k-brio-use-in-linux

But you said the Brio was compatible to ChromeOS. I said, if that were true, then the Brio is compatible to all of Linux. If you understood Linux, you'd know that if something is compatible to one instance of Linux, it's compatible to them all.

It's simply not possible for someone to use that amount of hardware for all kinds of stuff and not be aware of at least things like basic compatibility.

It was you who decided to use your years of buying hardware as a way to project that you're somehow an "expert" on hardware.

LOL! That's nonsense. Most of the stuff that I have that's not Linux compatible isn't made by Microsoft. Hell my Microsoft Surface devices are more compatible with Linux and their capabilities than Linux is with that of my sig rig.

I'm failing to understand how any of that makes sense.

What the hell about how Linux functions has to do with supporting hardware and software that's not Linux compatible?

This doesn't make any sense either. At least in Linux, I have WINE. However, why use WINE when I can simply use a Linux alternative?

Also, once again, Linux is more hardware compatible than Windows. I've proven this already.

Because it's typical Linux supporters thinking that they no more than everyone else, even stuff they've never touched when people have spent effort looking into an issue. Time and time and time again, there's another thread going with other people making exactly the observation. Something I've looked into now and then for seven years, you never heard of it, but no, blame users. Just because someone uses desktop Linux doesn't mean they done everything and know everything about PCs, especially people who have been doing this shit for decades. I know I don't know everything, indeed the older I get the more I realize what I don't know. Linux folks never seem to learn that lesson.



It supports millions or programs across all sorts of domains and is well supported by countless vendors and has been for decades. That's mature. Meanwhile we're still waiting on Linux to become a thing on Steam, 4 years after it was launched.



And except for Vista each one of those Windows versions has more users than all desktop Linux distro combined? Yes, Windows is a commercial product and versions aren't supported forever, never have been.



Right, I have nothing to back that up other than thousands of dollars in games and other software, an $800 VR headset, $200 webcam that aren't Linux compatible.

Alright, this is mostly fanboy stuff. Nothing of what you've said here is realistic or even makes sense. Steam? Gabe Newell had been trying to put Steam on Linux for years because he openly stated that he hated Microsoft. In just one year, Linux went from having a small handful of games to having a very substantial library - all thanks to Steam. Games such as The Witcher 2, Tomb Raider, NBA 2k17, and etc. are now all compatible to Linux. Even Doom is compatible and runs like a boss.

So anyway... You love Windows so much that you'll make any excuse to stick with it. I understand. I've tried to make you see the light, but the light is just too bright for you.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's very true, because I've ran into this very issue myself. Office 2013 is not compatible with older versions. I tried to open a Microsoft Office 97 document concerning World of Warcraft gear spec'ing. When it opened, it first complained, but when I forced it to open it up, it was completely unreadable. However, when I opened it in Libreoffice, it was perfect. I then googled what the issue was, and lo and behold, Office 2013 was not compatible with older versions of Office.

We have several older apps at work that generate .doc and .xls files and those documents work perfectly with Office 2013. You might have seen an issue but yes, Office 2013 is backwards compatible with the older formats but maybe there was an issue with the specific document you encountered.

Except they can't. If I wanted to install Office 97 just to open my WoW Spec List, I'd have to pirate it. There's no way I could purchase such an old version of Office from Microsoft. It's no longer sold or supported. Also, it would be ridiculous to buy an old version of Office just to open a few documents. It's best to just find something that's compatible to everything, such as Libreoffice.

So just install LibreOffice like I have. You can run it and MS Office side-by-side.

Yet CuneiForm is an open source Linux application that does OCR. Like I've mentioned before, you're making a lot of excuses, but the funny thing about it is... I don't understand why....

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OCR. I've not gone to check all of these things out but who would assume any of these options to do what Acrobat and OmniPage can do as well or as easily? Here again is a situation where you really have to test these things, just throwing out references to whatever tool that may work or not without having used the tools to be replaced simply doesn't mean anything.

So anyway... You love Windows so much that you'll make any excuse to stick with it. I understand. I've tried to make you see the light, but the light is just too bright for you.

So you throw out a reference to an obscure tool like CuneiForm. Have you ever used it? How does it compare to Acrobat or OmniPage? What does it do well or better than those? Where does it fall short?
You're simply ignoring the work and research that has to be done in moving over complex tools like this and think that a link to just anything provides a 2 second solution.

 

[Qchan]

We have several older apps at work that generate .doc and .xls files and those documents work perfectly with Office 2013. You might have seen an issue but yes, Office 2013 is backwards compatible with the older formats but maybe there was an issue with the specific document you encountered.

No, it's not. If you want to fight with this particular document yourself and see what I'm talking about, you can go here:
http://patsworld.net/wowfury.xlsm

So just install LibreOffice like I have. You can run it and MS Office side-by-side.

No need. However, I see you missed the point entirely.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OCR. I've not gone to check all of these things out but who would assume any of these options to do what Acrobat and OmniPage can do as well or as easily? Here again is a situation where you really have to test these things, just throwing out references to whatever tool that may work or not without having used the tools to be replaced simply doesn't mean anything.

And you assume that I haven't used these tools. That's your biggest problem.

So you throw out a reference to an obscure tool like CuneiForm. Have you ever used it? How does it compare to Acrobat or OmniPage? What does it do well or better than those? Where does it fall short?
You're simply ignoring the work and research that has to be done in moving over complex tools like this and think that a link to just anything provides a 2 second solution.

CuneiForm isn't obscure. I bet you that Evince was obscure too when I mentioned it, huh? Yet, Evince is the default PDF viewer in Ubuntu and I use it heavily.

I believe you're just jumping into wild assumptions and assuming I haven't had any experience in the applications I'm presenting you. You really want to feel so unique that no one can provide alternatives to what you use everyday. This is how I can prove that you love Windows with all of your heart. It's an unfortunate reality.

 

[heatlesssun]

No, it's not. If you want to fight with this particular document yourself and see what I'm talking about, you can go here:
http://patsworld.net/wowfury.xlsm

Opens fine in Excel 2016, Excel Mobile for Windows 10 and LibreCalc 5.3.3.2. For whatever the fonts looks like crap in LibreOffice. Not blaming LibreOffice, this is just what happened to be on this machine. Maybe it's Windows 10, who knows. All I know is that something you said wouldn't work at all worked perfectly for me in this case without having to do anything.

CuneiForm isn't obscure.

Compared to Acrobat, yes it's obscure.

I believe you're just jumping into wild assumptions and assuming I haven't had any experience in the applications I'm presenting you. You really want to feel so unique that no one can provide alternatives to what you use everyday. This is how I can prove that you love Windows with all of your heart. It's an unfortunate reality.

I am assuming nothing. I'm testing and researching what you're saying and what you're saying is demonstrably inaccurate on a couple of issues so far.

 

[Qchan]

Opens fine in Excel 2016, Excel Mobile for Windows 10 and LibreCalc 5.3.3.2. For whatever the fonts looks like crap in LibreOffice. Not blaming LibreOffice, this is just what happened to be on this machine. Maybe it's Windows 10, who knows. All I know is that something you said wouldn't work at all worked perfectly for me in this case without having to do anything.

View attachment 27184

That's just the intro tab. Show the Fury tab, please....

Compared to Acrobat, yes it's obscure.

I don't think so...

I am assuming nothing. I'm testing and researching what you're saying and what you're saying is demonstrably inaccurate on a couple of issues so far.

Like what? What have I said that has been inaccurate?

 

[heatlesssun]

That's just the intro tab. Show the Fury tab, please....

I'd checked all four before, Excel 2016, Excel Mobile and LibreCalc. All open, looks like the data is correct among them but clearly Office 2016 renders the best, things like white on white text show up in Excel Mobile and LibreOffice that don't.

Like what? What have I said that has been inaccurate?

You claimed this document wouldn't work in modern versions of Office. If does.

 

[Qchan]

View attachment 27190

View attachment 27190

I'd checked all four before, Excel 2016, Excel Mobile and LibreCalc. All open, looks like the data is correct among them but clearly Office 2016 renders the best, things like white on white text show up in Excel Mobile and LibreOffice that don't.


You claimed this document wouldn't work in modern versions of Office. If does.

I can't see the screenshots all too well. I want to believe it's calculating perfectly on your screen, but I can't tell!

Are the list of armor and weapons listed? The screenshot on the far left looks right, but I can't see it!

 

[heatlesssun]

I can't see the screenshots all too well. I want to believe it's calculating perfectly on your screen, but I can't tell!

Are the list of armor and weapons listed? The screenshot on the far left looks right, but I can't see it!

I played around with a couple the calculations changing the talents and they matched up between Excel 2016 and LibreCalc. LibreCalc (and this is the latest version) experienced some wriredness, like having to select the new inputs from the drop down twice before calculating properly. In any case, I just don't know how you concluded that this wouldn't work with modern versions of Office because everything you bought up works and actually seems to be working better in Excel 2016 with this example.

 

[Qchan]

View attachment 27195

I played around with a couple the calculations changing the talents and they matched up between Excel 2016 and LibreCalc. LibreCalc (and this is the latest version) experienced some wriredness, like having to select the new inputs from the drop down twice before calculating properly. In any case, I just don't know how you concluded that this wouldn't work with modern versions of Office because everything you bought up works and actually seems to be working better in Excel 2016 with this example.

I've always had issues. Albeit, I never used Excel 2016, so could that have been the difference? Hard to say, but I'm certainly convinced that the backwards compatibility is there! Thanks for proving that to me.

So, what about forward compatibility? If I buy Office 2013 or Office XP, can I read Office 2016 files?

 

[heatlesssun]

So, what about forward compatibility? If I buy Office 2013 or Office XP, can I read Office 2016 files?

This should work in general however it's not just about file formats, new features wouldn't be compatible in older versions.

 

[Qchan]

This should work in general however it's not just about file formats, new features wouldn't be compatible in older versions.

Understood.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I tend to avoid Microsoft document formats anyway nowadays. I typically try to save in ODF or PDF formats.

But still... You should give Linux another go. This time, build a dedicated box for it and try to migrate a few projects to it. Think of it as an personal project. I'm very sure you will be very happy with what you learn.

 

[heatlesssun]

But still... You should give Linux another go. This time, build a dedicated box for it and try to migrate a few projects to it. Think of it as an personal project. I'm very sure you will be very happy with what you learn.

I've been around Linux for around 20 years. I'm by no means a Linux expert but to try it out as client host from time to time. I have a good understanding of strengths and weaknesses at least as far as my own PC work and play needs are concerned. If there were for need or want I had that required the use of Linux as client host then I'd use it regularly on one or potentially all of my PCs.

I get the issues some have with Windows 10 and I actually agree with much of the criticism though I do think a lot of gets blown out of proportion. Whatever the truth really is about the issues of Windows 10, it supports everything I do and we're going to it at work for our desktop client OS. Desktop Linux currently has far too many gaps for my needs. Millage always varies and I've said plenty of times that desktop Linux can work for a lot of people. But there's a 1.5 billion Windows users out there and Linux won't work for them all, maybe the bulk, certainly some, but not all.

There's a TON more stuff to learn and out and have fun with than desktop operating systems. I really don't fuddle with Windows 10 much. I just pretty much use it, do the updates, and that's generally it. Sure things get wonky Windows sometimes but the overwhelming amount of time I spend with PCs is inside applications.