Volvo Phasing Out Internal Combustion Engines

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by monkeymagick, Jul 6, 2017.

  1. monkeymagick

    monkeymagick [H]News

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    Starting after 2019, Volvo will have all its car either be electric or hybrid models. Based in Sweden and owned by the Chinese, the car maker is the first major company in the industry to set a date for phasing out vehicles that run solely on internal combustion engines. The company projects to sell a total of 1 million electrified cars by 2025. The first fully electric cars will be built in China which already produces battery-powered cars for its parent company Geely Automobile Holdings of China and plan to go on sale in 2019 globally. Can I get one in truck-form?

    "This announcement marks the end of the solely combustion engine-powered car," Volvo Cars CEO Hakan Samuelsson said.

    ...also means we won't be doing other things. We of course will not be developing completely new generations of combustion engines," he said about future investment needs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  2. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Wow. Obviously they are using ICE still but the fact they will no longer invest in new generations i think it's significant.
     
  3. ole-m

    ole-m Limp Gawd

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    Truck form, doubt it.
    I don't think US. is the biggest target for Volvo specifically at the moment, and US. is the only ones really all about them trucks
     
  4. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Counterpoint:

    http://jalopnik.com/here-s-a-huge-reason-why-we-need-electric-trucks-1796495764

    The ICE is a relic of the 19th century; better options have long existed. The only difference is those other options are actually getting looked into and developed now.
     
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  5. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Let me know when one can go for as long as I can drive... hybrids offer little to no advantage when you are mostly a highway driver...
     
  6. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    Means a lot though to the majority of the world's urban population.

    Times are changing.
     
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  7. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    yeah and they mean nothing to people that actually live outside of that area (like I do). I need my car to be able to perform in ALL conditions and thankfully, Subaru meets my needs with AWD and good fuel economy... a 2WD car sucks when roads are not plowed and you need to be able to get somewhere.
     
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  8. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    That's great and all but they need to stop making these eco boxes so fucking small.
     
  9. ole-m

    ole-m Limp Gawd

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    It's a relic, but my point was Volvo specifically won't be targeting trucks, as Volvo wants to take back the share they once had as a start, they're hardly a volume producer yet.
    Other probably will ;)

    I run BMW 2wd above the polar circle, no issues :)
    Tires, all about them tires and either brake assisted LSD emulation or LSD.

    But I see AWD being the way forward.
     
  10. TheOne&OnlyZeke

    TheOne&OnlyZeke 100% Irish

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    I think this is a great idea. Might kickstart other manufacturers doing the same thing
    The more that take it up, the faster the tech will evolve
     
  11. Crosshairs

    Crosshairs Administrator Staff Member

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    The 2025 headlines will read "Volvo files for bankruptcy, cites slow sales of vehicles as main cause" .

    I mean good for them, but unless these cars become as cheap as their gas counterparts , many people will still not be buying them...This really sounds like an all your eggs in one basket scenario.
     
  12. nightanole

    nightanole [H]ard|Gawd

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    Take 15-18k economy car, now add 20k to the price tag, congrats you now have a 0-60 in 12 second/100mile range ev.

    People are not /cant spend $55k on a 150-200 mile range honda accord. If they could afford a $55k car, they dam well are not going to buy an accord.

    If you want an electric car now, just get a kia soul or golf, they go all day long for 15-18k with almost zero miles in some cases. My buddy just bought a brand new 2015 egolf for $22k, and he gets the $6500 fed thing on top of that. That thing rotted on the lot for 3 years...

    People are not going to spend $20k more for the same car, with a much smaller gas tank, that you might get 100-150k out of the battery pack before you just drive the whole car to the scrap yard, unless someone figures out how to make an ev replacement pack cost $15k.
     
  13. c3k

    c3k 2[H]4U

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    When I pull up to the pump, it takes me 5 minutes (or less) to get my VW Passat TDI range increased to 700+ miles (~18 gallon fuel tank, ~48 mpg). When that "charge" runs out...I do it again. Stuck in traffic? No worry about running AC and not having enough charge to get home or to work.

    Electric cars are still subsidized because the market forces do not support the current technology. Owners need to be bribed with other people's money to buy them.

    Are they the wave of the future? Time will tell... ;)

    There were a LOT of competing technologies over 100 years ago to replace horse power. The gas/diesel ICE won, but there was competition first. Let's see what happens.
     
  14. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    Your points are a little exaggerated but true for the most part.
     
  15. Dekoth-E-

    Dekoth-E- [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yet another misleading article that ignores important information. Yes electric has better torque and a power band. Unfortunately the article tries to brush of range at the very end and hopes the average reader doesn't know real math. They trumpet 200 miles and claim that fully loaded with Tesla batteries it would be more but it isn't known. That sounds well and good for a consumer car but it is down right useless in a long haul. The average semi carries 250 gallons of diesel at 5.5mpg average. Saving 25 gallons as the amount you never want to drop below, that's 1,234 miles between fills. Some trucks have 300 gallon tanks extending even further. That is no small range difference.

    Saying ICE is a relic is true. Saying better options exist is demonstrably false.
     
  16. lilbabycat

    lilbabycat 2[H]4U

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    They'll just license out motors from other companies for the 10-40 years ICE is still needed.
     
  17. WorldExclusive

    WorldExclusive [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If a person worries about mpg or gas prices, they will always drive a shitbox grocery getter.
     
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  18. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    ICE had a good, 100years.
    RIP
     
  19. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    The Chinese owned Volvo is leading the way into the 21st century.
     
  20. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    it's not going anywhere. no need to mourn the death of something that is still quite alive.
     
  21. c3k

    c3k 2[H]4U

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    ICE is not a relic. A relic implies it has no current use. Umm, I just looked at a nearby roadway: lots of internal combustion engines propelling a wide variety of vehicles. Some motorcycles, some sports cars, some sedans, a few minivans, even a panel van. Then there were also the big trucks bringing all the stuff to all the stores. Seems like all sorts of sizes and types of engines being used to provide power to all sorts of vehicles that all sorts of individuals have chosen.

    My son just got a car. It's got nearly 300 hp from just 4 cylinders and a turbocharger. It has a LOT of gears AND it has a switch which "tunes" the engine/transmission on the fly. He can go from economy mode (mid to upper 30's) to performance mode with the flick of a switch. Pretty cool. Pretty efficient. Nice way to get two different cars by using electronics and engine management.

    Electric? Sure, they can be even more flexible. But their biggest drawback (other than high-speed torque), is power storage. An ancillary problem is generating the electricity to charge the batteries and the system to deliver the charge into the battery. Household chargers need a lot more than the US standard 120v. 5 minutes gives my diesel 700+ range. That's long for an ICE range. Most manufacturers size the fuel tank to get about 350 miles out of a tank. So, what electric car gets 350 miles out of a 5 minute charge? Convenience is important. Induction charging loops at stop lights, in garages, and at parking spots? That's an idea... But, who pays for this? Taxpayers? No thanks.
     
  22. Lots of people forget this, as some people live and only travel a few mile from home....Ever. Granted that are very few, however EVs are prefect for that sort of user. You also have some smaller countries, something people in the US forget, such as England is less than 300 mile from side to side or about 400 miles from tip to bottom, the whole UK is less than half the land mass of just Texas. So location and transportation structure really matter on if EV "works", no less if it can actually have a ROI. For trucking and even many car users in the US, EV at it's current point, just will not work and once it reaches the point it does work you have to look at ROI over ICE and unless EV get MUCH cheaper, and I don't mean from even MORE subsidy, but actual reduction in price or oil/gas gets way more expensive, people will not move from ICE in at least some form, more hybrids? Absolutely, but we are still very far off from EV taking majority market share and that's with tons of subsidy already, remove that and we would have almost no EV market right now.
     
  23. 0neTwo

    0neTwo Limp Gawd

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    The ICE is on its way out. Electric cars are still in their absolute infancy and already they can do better what 90% of the population uses a vehicle for.

    No, you can't drive to the moon on a single charge. No, you can't tow as much as a semi. No, you can't fully charge in 8 seconds. But what you can do is drive the average persons ~30 mile daily round trip commute(and let the car charge at night). Electric cars will dominate this section. And again, still in their absolute infancy. And as the industry switches to electric, new tech will be discovered faster and faster as companies compete.

    There will still be ICE cars around for a loong time even if every manufacturer stopped selling them today. Too many cars, fuel infrastructure well dug in...etc. But the writing is on the wall, its death is imminent.
     
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  24. lilbabycat

    lilbabycat 2[H]4U

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    Until battery life / weight ratio triples (or better) while also not being small explosive devices, we just won't be in the electric era.
    Cars need to get 600miles to a charge, not 200.
    Cellphones need to last a week, not two days.
    Drones need to last an hour+, not 20min.
    Robots of various sizes need to justify their size/weight and it all comes down to their huge batteries
    Smart watches need to last more than ONE day, its a F'ing WATCH, ffs.

    Every emerging modern tech hinges on its power use.
     
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  25. c3k

    c3k 2[H]4U

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    Fixed that for you! ;)

    (I added the "urban" in there...just to be clear. And the ";)" is very much intended.)

    I don't know what the future will bring, but there is a clear divide between urban population centers and non-urban (sub- and ex-, and rural)...not just in transportation needs, but in MANY other facets.

    There's an interesting historical tidbit about how cities lost their light rail systems to buses. (Not too many trolleys in the US anymore.) It had to do with politics and money and vested interests. I don't want electric cars to start down that path. Competition selects the fittest. Let's not let politicians do the choosing.
     
  26. Simplyfun

    Simplyfun Gawd

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    Us rural folks will just have to revolt and burn the cities down. An electric vehicle would be about as useful to me as a pimple in my asscrack.
     
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  27. Susquehannock

    Susquehannock 2[H]4U

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    No surprise here. Though based in Sweden, Volvo is owned by Geely Automobile Holdings of China, which is already the largest market for electric vehicles. Largely because the country wants to curb (pun intended) their awful pollution situation. Electric Polestars here we come!
     
  28. Not any time soon. The issues with EV are more than just range and charging times, but battery supply, which is already an issue, we don't even have the mining ability to keep up with projected current demand, no less a majority of cars going EV. I see this much like "peek oil", in that each time it's claimed, and even more demand, we find more ways to get cheap or cheaper oil. While this might be slower for batteries, I expect the same thing, if the demand is there, it will find a way, along with possible new battery tech, only time will tell. The problem with your users are that (just like the ones I mentioned above) some people only travel a few miles from home a day, but even those people, at least once a year, go on longer distance trips, at least in the US, which would mean they would have to have a second ICE car, rent one or fly/take other transportation means. I know a number of people with EV's and most fall into the first, having two or more cars, I think this is due to cost in that people who can afford EVs right now are those who can afford to have a second car. But that is a luxury for many and an added cost, this also does not account for people not paying full price for EVs out of pocket as a good chunk is covered by tax dollars.

    Myself, I am a HUGE car guy, and love my heavy modded turbo Miata, and love the smell of exhaust fumes. However, I am also the person who would love to have a fully EV sports car IF it had the endurance of an ICE and fast recharge. I expect some day we will be there, if thats with battery tech or something else, who knows. I welcome it however, but we really need to stop subsidizing it.

    The people want to, but the government does not, lots of the pollution comes from how they generate power, which are old plants and most don't even conform to their own environmental laws, reason? They are all state owned plants, and we all know (even in the US) how well governments follow their own rules.
     
  29. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    Better grab that S60 Polestar before then.
    The electric motor is a "relic" of the 19th century, predating the design we use in modern engines by almost 50 years. The first car using an electric motor was built in 1837. The first car using an ICE was built in 1885.
     
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  30. OEM

    OEM [H]ard as it Gets

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    Well..by producing more cars and figuring out better ways to produce them the costs will come down.

    People said the exact same thing (I'm sure, I wasn't alive back then) about ICE engines when horses and buggies were cheaper and easier to make. Don't get me wrong, I love me some ICE sports cars, but ICE is antiquated and will eventually be replaced.
     
  31. Burticus

    Burticus 2[H]4U

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    I think it's a step in the right direction. Remove the heavy and expensive drivetrain/transmission and slap electric motors at the wheels. Run motors off battery power. Plop in a small, very tuned and efficient ICE to recharge battery. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard. A properly designed/tuned engine that only runs at specific low RPM ranges could be hugely more efficient as a DC generator. Also.. no more transmission problems.

    I've been saying this should be in every vehicle (excepting special purpose vehicles) for like 15 years, since I read about the first hybrids.

    And think about what it could do for tractor trailer trucks. Keep the diesel engine idling at a low specific rate and let the batteries and electric motors take the abuse.

    I have even had delusions of small electric generating super efficient turbine engines replacing the general ICE as a generator. Take a closed loop turbine, designed to run an optimal efficiency, and they will sip fuel all day long. Also the emissions from a setup like a turbine hybrid would have to be so much better than a regular gas or diesel ICE. I know I read something about this years ago, let me see if I can find it.
     
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  32. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    A 2WD is fine in the snow if you are a competent driver. No issues there.
     
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  33. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire 2[H]4U

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    I'm glad i don't own volvo stock.
    Electric cars may be the future, but with limited range, they will never take center stage. Regardless of actual use, people want unlimited range and or the ability to recharge/fill up in a short amount of time.
    Hybrids are fine, but they're expensive.
    The funny part about all of this is that hybrids have an internal combustion engine, therefore Volvo isn't phasing out anything. Bad title.
     
  34. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    I have yet to know of a society that collapsed due to personal transportation having a 30min recharge time with a less than 200 mile range. USA might be the first though.
     
  35. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Funnier is, if i could buy an electric car, I would actually SAVE time as i would never have to visit a gas station. I am thinking those weekly minutes add up to hours a year, its probably more time than it would be if i took a long trip in an electric car supercharging all the way.
     
  36. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot 2[H]4U

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    Popular Science did a piece years ago(think 1970s or 1980s) on a guy that built a EV using a full size car frame, a 40hp series wound DC motor, a 2 speed powerglide, a bunch of truck batteries and a surplus military turbine generator. Was still in the no body but driveable experimental phase when the article was written. Had real good acceleration due to the high torque a series wound motor produces at low RPM. The unmuffled turbine turned a lot of heads when he fired it up on the highway. Don't know if they ever did a followup on how it turned out.
     
  37. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire 2[H]4U

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    Really? In order to charge up every night, you would also need a house/dedicated charging spot. If you live in an apartment, you'd be out of luck in the majority of time.
    If you want to go on a 250 mile trip, you'd be out of luck.
    The idea of having two cars is silly.
    Plug in hybrids are a thing, but in general they're like 10k more expensive than a regular car, something which you probably can't recover even with fuel cost savings.
     
  38. Antiquated they are not, why people say this so much when battery tech is not there yet, and electric motors are older than ICE cars, I just don't understand. Now if they had greater range, close to the same charge time, the same endurance and close to the same price, you could then say ICE is antiquated.

    You do understand batteries weigh more than that "heavy" drive train right? Or do you assume that EVs are super light cars? Because almost all EV versions weigh significantly more than their ICE counterpart.

    Using an ICE to charge the battery is not as easy as it sounds, as you need a rather powerful generator to do that and is in most cases less efficient than having the ICE drive the wheels. You also have this in a few cars, but they only use it as an emergency range extender because of this. They also have reduced speed and performance as the generator can't keep up with powering the car AND charging the battery, they have also run into thermal problems with charging and discharging the battery at the same time. This is why most hybrids still use the ICE to power the wheels and the electric motors to "fill" the areas that the ICE is less efficient at, such as take off and sitting in traffic.

    I am glad people are excited about EV's, but so much arm chair engineering gets talked about and taken as fact/possible is not a good thing. Lots of the ideas people have for EV or hybrids they think are the future or "why has no one done" ideas, have actually been done and were found to not work or to be far more expensive than first thought to get to work. Just like turbines, they are LOUD and are very hard to muffle without taking a huge performance hit, they require maintenance more so then a ICE, and you think your dealership is expensive now....They also run very hot, their exhaust is also far hotter than a ICE and is hard to deal with, there are safety regulations that need to be met for this, having someone walk by an idling turbine car in a parking lot and being burned without even making contact is not going to go over well. They have long startup and shut down procedures and only beat ICE efficiency after a given amount of run time, before that they are less efficient.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2017
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  39. thejokker

    thejokker Gawd

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    Batteries and range are two factors that could limit the practicality of electric cars in the future. There is some concern regarding the availability of an adequate supply of cobalt which is a key component in electric car batteries.

    https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/no-cobalt-no-tesla/

    Another issue is the health hazards of cobalt...
     
  40. Gigus Fire

    Gigus Fire 2[H]4U

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    Fixed that for you.
     
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