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Video game actor strike

Magoo,
Remember Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
Rob Paulsen, one of the best in the business was Raphael, and because of his residuals from TMNT (his first big show), and the toy sales of which he got a cut, was able to pay off his mortgage. I only bring that up because on the flip side of that coin, anyone who does a voice-over for video games is not automatically entitled to reaping the benefits of making a character that is in a game that sells 5 million copies, nor is that person entitled to a cut of the toy sales because of the lack of such a deal in video games. Steve Downes, better known as Master Chief from Halo/Halo 2, is one that a person would equate to Rob's situation. Lead character in a hit game, but gets no additional benefits after the initial payment, and nothing for those Master Chief action figures...unless he somehow managed to barter a deal when he went back for Halo 2 (which I doubt), because regardless how well people thought the first Halo would do, they'd never agree to give a DJ from Chicago a clause for toy sales.

If I were doing VO and in SAG right now, I would want my residuals. I would want an industry that made more money than movies last year to pay what I deserve. If you guys look at the residual system for movies and TV, remember that residuals are usually pennies on the ticket, even for the some of the Hollywood A-List. The show/film has to be a success for anyone in the process to get any sort of benefit out of the deal, so if the show/film sucks, then the residuals will suck. Even the really bad union movies still have to pay residuals, and this isn't even the way the negotiated system would work for the video game industry...not every game, only games that sell more than 400,000 copies would be affected. For some perspective, that would've only affected 30 games last year. There was 25 billion dollars made in interactive media last year alone. EA made 3 billion of that *itself*. And the reason those publishers rejected the offer?
"It's not that we don't have the money. It's just on principle."
It sounds exactly like the thing I was telling Torgo. If they cave in on residuals for voice actors, then profit sharing for developers wouldn't be far behind, organized or not.

Right now, the possible stike means nothing to me personally, except that I might get more work. But getting more work and still having to work for very little money still doesn't pan out for me, except that my voice gets to be heard in more places. I definitely want close to SAG scale for my work in the studio. I can live without the residuals right now, because I have another job that supports my dream, but if VO was my only job (and it has been before), I would want a kickback for my work. There are no guarantees in Cartoons and Video Games. That's why it's the worst kind of gamble only to work for a percent of the profit.

Glad you posted, man...hope to chat again sometime, and no way that I couldn't learn something from you. I listen, and that lets me learn every day.

Brad Venable
 
Thanks for the information. Its sobering. Sometimes when one speaks out of ignorance he will eventually need to wipe the egg off his face. I hadnt looked at any of this from a calm perspective. I appreciate your comments. Thanks again.
 
If the programmers strike, I don't think many places will hesitate AT ALL to start sending their work over seas.

I think I understand the reason for the voice actors though.
 
Xipher said:
If the programmers strike, I don't think many places will hesitate AT ALL to start sending their work over seas.

I think I understand the reason for the voice actors though.
Click to expand...


Lol, if the programmers strike :) They'd have to have a union first. Besides, programmers are generally paid pretty well anyway.
 
Who cares about the voices - they're not eve ACTING... you're reading words of a damn page into a microphone. You yell where it says "YELL:" and you sob when it says 'SOB:"

Fuck these bums. Time for your lazy ass to get a real job because you had the EASIEST job in the world and you blew it because of your greed. BOOYAH!
 
good or bad voice acting doesn't make or break a game.. look at farcry.. that game rocked.. the voice acting was horrible.. but it still rocked..
 
After putting some thought into this whole strike business..
I came to the conclusion that the programmers and designers
burning the midnight oil should come first before voice actors.

Reasoning?

Programmers & Designers - voice actors = Game with no voice overs
Voice actors - Programmers & Designers = Audio tape version of books.
 
See the front page, the actors DIDN'T get the royalties they were asking for, but they did get a 36% raise :eek: :eek:

lame.
 
Get a 36% raise to sit on their fucking asses and talk just so they can have the game companies raise the price of games to 60 bucks. They knew we didnt support them and figured taht was a good way to stick it to us. I hope more game companies use fewer of the union voice actors and just pick up joe schmoes off the street or someone in house. I say dont use them at all and let them rot and die in hell.
 
If actors are relying on voice overs in video games to pay their bills, I don't know about you but it would send off alarms in my head telling me i need to expand to other forms of media, or to "get a haircut and get a real job"
 
Why is it that Voice actors get so much money when my secretary does not ? I mean she out voice acts these actors all the time. She is constantly forced to sound like she cares, when idiot customers call, and her talent to sound interested at lame conversation when, contractors with the personality of a rock, try to hit on her. Her ability to act perky even on 2 hours of sleep is another act, worthy of an academy award.

That's it, all secretaries should strike !!!
She should get residuals from the business.

Now that was a sarcastic analogy, but it very much applies. She is replaceable, because the success of the company does not rely on her job skills. Do you see how ridiculous it sounds in this example, well it is directly equitable to that of a voice actor.

PS she also has a second job to supplement her income. Take an example from my secretary, and get a second job, actors.
 
there hasnt been a game ive played where voice acting added anything at all i cared about in what i play. period. i play mmo's mostly and the only mmorpg to have any voice over is eq2. a campfest turd of a game you couldnt pay me to play.

i say we go back to the days of developers doing voice overs. i thought those days had much better voiceovers than the "real actors" we have now.

whats next? are they going to complain that there arent enough video games that use actual video now? the next strike attempt will probobly be because sega didnt make sewer shark 3. :rolleyes:
 
There are plenty of alternative actors that can emulate the voice overs of real actors.

Screw the bums. Game makers have a hard enough time making money, and the programmers work ungodly hours to pull it all together. The programmers are gold, the actors are replaceable.
 
http://www.shacknews.com has more details...this ought to make you lose your lunch:

An immediate 25 percent increase in minimum wages from $556 to $695 for a four-hour session for up to three voices with increases in subsequent years, bringing the daily rate up to $759.

Double time pay after six hours (previously ten hours) for three-voice performers.

A 7.5 percent increase in contributions to the unions' benefits plans, bringing the rate up to 14.3 percent.

15-25 percent gains in rates for remote delivery and integration.

Payment to actors for reuse of performances in promotional films longer than 12 minutes.

A specified rest period for each hour spent recording.

Payment window shortened from 30 to 12 business days.

Pre-work notification to actors performing in stressful sessions.

Oh My God.....
 
Steve said:
http://www.shacknews.com has more details...this ought to make you lose your lunch:

An immediate 25 percent increase in minimum wages from $556 to $695 for a four-hour session for up to three voices with increases in subsequent years, bringing the daily rate up to $759.

Double time pay after six hours (previously ten hours) for three-voice performers.

A 7.5 percent increase in contributions to the unions' benefits plans, bringing the rate up to 14.3 percent.

15-25 percent gains in rates for remote delivery and integration.

Payment to actors for reuse of performances in promotional films longer than 12 minutes.

A specified rest period for each hour spent recording.

Payment window shortened from 30 to 12 business days.

Pre-work notification to actors performing in stressful sessions.

Oh My God.....
Click to expand...

Wait a second ... are we talking about Voice Actors or NHL players ? :D
 
Gasp! What I said before came true! SAG and AFTA didn't get the votes nor did they have any leverage, so they caved to the publishers. (Anyone want my Belmont Cup Trifecta?)

It makes me laugh to read Melissa Gilbert's comments trying to cover up for her failure. Essentially it amounts to "Well, uh... gee... er... We'll be back in a few years and try again." And fail. Over and over and over.

Here's the thing: the video game industry wants to be as popular and well-liked as Hollywood. They want their developers to become the movie stars of tomorrow. They try to be Hollywood and talk like Hollywood but it's just not possible. The industry is just too different. There's no beauty and glamour involved. There's no parties and being a developer isn't going to get you into exclusive clubs or restaurants. It's staring at a screen in a dark room and you haven't showered or shaved for two days.

It a different system and product. Gaming likes to through out the money figure that we make more than Hollywood, but that's misleading. Sure we pull in more sales but that's because we charge more per unit ($50 vs. $10). The industry isn't awash in cash as you might think we are. (BTW, those sales figures comparisons don't taken into account the DVD sales and rentals which DWARF the video game industry.) Hollywood has found two revenue streams whereas gaming relies almost solely on sales.

Frankly, I don't ever see publishers giving in to Hollywood when it comes to money. If the actors or directors want a piece of it, they'll come to the gaming industry. That's what has always happened in the past. George Lucas made his own studio (LucasArts) and does whatever the hell he wants. Vin Diesel wanted a part of the action, so he created his own development house. What's ironic is that the video game industry makes the rules and we can pretty much bully the movie industry around. Hell, Activision sued Paramount for screwing up the Star Trek franchise and devaluing the video games Activision made.

It's a living contradiction the relationship that video games has with Hollywood. As I said earlier, the video game industry wants to be like Hollywood, Hollywood looks at video games as the ugly stepsister, but doesn't really know that the video game industry has made Hollywood its bitch, but to top it off, the video game industry is slowly decaying from within because of internal strife. Go figure.
 
A rest period for one fucking hour of work? Have any of these voice actors ever had a real job that required something besides talking? I wish I could have led the silver spoon fed lives these people have.
 
One other quick comment. Steve mentioned that publishers are going to pass this "added cost" on to consumers. Not going to happen. At least with the current generation of hardware. Publishers really, really want to rise prices, but gamers are really hesitant about purchasing a game that costs $60 to $65 dollars a pop. The publishers know that rising costs eats into future sales later on. In the thirty years of gaming, prices per game have only risen from $35 to $55. If you take into account inflation, games have actually become cheaper over that time!

No, what's going to happen is that the publishers are going to be really picky for who they want for voice talent. They'll just get the union actors for the "well-known" parts and then go non-union to save money. So Steve, it's really like this: SAG loses, VG industry wins and gamers just don't care since it really doesn't change anything.

Oh, and that list of piddly things the VO get doesn't amount to much in the long run. The three-voice limit is really, really, bad for those good character actors. Intead of using the great actors that can pull off ten voices, they will only get contracted for those three and the developers will go get somone else (less talented) to do the rest for less. I guarandamntee it.
 
I really do hope they become pickier about quality since they will be paying these people more. With a few glimmering exceptions, voice acting in games is almost as bad as the acting in the Star Wars prequels *rimshot* sorry.

Seriously though, even when huge name actors do the voice acting it tends to be real flacid and void of effort, emotion, etc. While acting certainly does not make or break a game, solid voice work definately adds to the immersion of the experience. Half Life 2, for example, was really well done in that regard for the most part, and it (along with other factors) made the characters really cool and likable I thought.

So maybe one advantage will be increased quality, but who knows. Actors sure do complain a lot. Jeez, imagine if Sean Penn were doing voice work! *rimshot again*
 
enlightenedby42 said:
Seriously though, even when huge name actors do the voice acting it tends to be real flacid and void of effort, emotion, etc.
Click to expand...
Some of that has to do with direction. There are voice directors that are supposed to give instruction to the artist.

Just like the Cingular commerical with Chewbacca doing voice overs. You've got the guy (the director) who's there saying "I love it. Now make it hate it. Try it again without the accent. Interesting choice." You'll have some voice directors who just accept one take on everything and others who will really work to get something good out of everyone in the studio.

I mean, look at Star Wars. Lucas is horrible, horrible at directing actors. These actors pretty much have motivate themselves. (Is that the same Samuel Jackson that was in Pulp Fiction?!?) So the next time you see a video game with bad VO, point a finger to the director as well.
 
Torgo said:
One other quick comment. Steve mentioned that publishers are going to pass this "added cost" on to consumers. Not going to happen.

<snip>
No, what's going to happen is that the publishers are going to be really picky for who they want for voice talent. They'll just get the union actors for the "well-known" parts and then go non-union to save money. So Steve, it's really like this: SAG loses, VG industry wins and gamers just don't care since it really doesn't change anything.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that video game publishers will eat the added cost? Game makers will just cut the extra costs out of their profits? Anyone else think this makes sense?

I also swore that unions made sure that you had to be a "union house". Meaning if you use union labor, you DO NOT use scabs for the other voice work. It is either all or nothing or they picket you.
 
ive followed this thread since it was first posted. The actors have some solid statements in here that people need to read before they make a decision. do I think the residuals are a good idea?? No. Do I think they should be paid for what they do??? yes. I dont have much of an idea what the work includes (preparation,etc.) so I really cant say if the hourly wage is overpriced or not. It sounds like the two sides sat down and came up with some sort of a plan that obviously worked. Who knows???? :D I dont think that the publisher will eat the extra cost involved....but again I dont know what percentage we a talking about compared to total costs of development, etc....I do wish somebody would give me a 36% raise and add to my pension plan everytime i came to work. :rolleyes:
 
Steve said:
I also swore that unions made sure that you had to be a "union house". Meaning if you use union labor, you DO NOT use scabs for the other voice work. It is either all or nothing or they picket you.
Click to expand...

I think it's hilarious how unions extort inflated wages, kill market competition, then complain when jobs get cut! (GM anyone)

I know in the early part of last century labor reforms were necessary, but for the most part that era has passed in the US.

I'm trying to stay on topic, but I'm struggling to find something civil to say. The voice actors strike really...(editing myself) irritates me.
 
Steve said:
So you are saying that video game publishers will eat the added cost? Game makers will just cut the extra costs out of their profits? Anyone else think this makes sense?
Click to expand...

I don't think so either. ^_^

BUT - I don't think voice acting makes up one of the largest expenses either, so maybe it won't be that hard to sweep under the rug. I also think that they know that much of their target market will be a great deal harder to sell to if they raise their prices significantly over a short period of time.

And unions...necessary at one point in time, definately. Now...they help negotiate for raises and shut out anyone that's not part of their club from being able to compete.
 
Steve said:
So you are saying that video game publishers will eat the added cost?
Click to expand...
No, I'm saying the publishers will do everything in their power to make sure there isn't any additional cost. They'll just cut a speaking role from the game, scrimp from another area of development. Steve, game makers have been doing this for years. It's simple business.

Besides, it's not that much. If I'm paying a guy $100 more an hour for 10 hours of work, that's just $1000 more. In the terms of a multi-million dollar budget for a AAA game, that is a drop in the bucket.

I also swore that unions made sure that you had to be a "union house". Meaning if you use union labor, you DO NOT use scabs for the other voice work. It is either all or nothing or they picket you.
Click to expand...
The backdoor has always been you can use employees of the company. You can use the janitor to do a voice over as long as he's employeed by the developer. If George Lucas does a cameo in SWIII, are all the SAG actors going to walk off the set? Nope. There's a way around everything. Please correct if I'm wrong in this.

Edit: No, I'm pretty sure I'm right in this. Check the VO credits for GTA: San Andreas and you'll find the whole friggin' company did voice over work in some capacity. That's your SAG/scab mix right there.

As the publishers have always stated, they're more than willing to use non-union talent for whatever they do. They hold all the power in this situation.
 
Torgo, you make it sound so much like the publishers are giving them a cookie so they'll shut up...
 
ashmedai said:
Torgo, you make it sound so much like the publishers are giving them a cookie so they'll shut up...
Click to expand...
Oh, totally. I'm not saying one side is more right than the other either. This is playing out just like a sports agreement. Take the NHL for instance. The players wan't more money but the owners are saying "Look guys, there really isn't all that money that you think there is." The players counter with the we'll go on strike and the NHL says fine, go ahead and see if we care.

Who ended up getting the raw end of the deal there? The players. (Well, and the fans.) The NHL could have used scabs to keep the season going but the fans would have known the difference.

Here's what the video game industry has over sports, television and movies. It's a faceless medium. Everyone is replaceable and the vast majority will not be able to tell the difference. If the voice actors go on strike, the developers and publishers will get someone else who will do the job.

So the publishers did give the union a cookie to shut up. They're the ones that gave the union the offer in the first place. The union had no choice really because they didn't have the votes to strike anyway. So yeah, the publishers gave them an Oreo, a pat on the head and said "It's okay. It's all better now. That's a good boy. Dry your tears."
 
Steve said:
http://www.shacknews.com has more details...this ought to make you lose your lunch:

An immediate 25 percent increase in minimum wages from $556 to $695 for a four-hour session for up to three voices with increases in subsequent years, bringing the daily rate up to $759.

Double time pay after six hours (previously ten hours) for three-voice performers.

A 7.5 percent increase in contributions to the unions' benefits plans, bringing the rate up to 14.3 percent.

15-25 percent gains in rates for remote delivery and integration.

Payment to actors for reuse of performances in promotional films longer than 12 minutes.

A specified rest period for each hour spent recording.

Payment window shortened from 30 to 12 business days.

Pre-work notification to actors performing in stressful sessions.

Oh My God.....
Click to expand...

Rest period...stressful sessions...WTF!!!!! :mad:

This is the most fucking rediculous thing ever. Fucking whiny voice acting bitches!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

If these losers are making this much, how much are real movie stars making for voice acting $234,908,987,876/Hr.

Hmm...how much money do people make for their fine voice acting in the McDonald's drive through? $5/Hr.
 
Torgo said:
As the publishers have always stated, they're more than willing to use non-union talent for whatever they do. They hold all the power in this situation.
Click to expand...

IF that was true...why are we even having this discussion? You either use union actors or not. You can't do both. If developers had the power, they would use $8 students for 99.9% of the game and splurge on a Samuel Jackson...which, under union rules is a no-no.

I have talked to two people at two different companies in the last month that BOTH use (or have used) union voice talent and they are bound by union rules if they use union talent. If they DON'T use union talent, you are not bound by union rules. But you can't pick and choose. These are two of the biggest game developers in the country that are currently using voice talent.

Yes, you can have the janitor, or anyone else (who is already your employee) do voice work, but if you use UNION ACTORS you abide by UNION RULES. If you don't use the union, you don't have to abide by its rules...but you don't have the luxury of getting the big name voice talent (like Mr. Jackson) now because they are under union contract.

I'll see if I can get the ACTUAL list of union contract rules to post.

*********

And your GTA:SA example is a good one. There are 395 voice credits in the game. Multiply that by the MINIMUM of $695 (for 4 hours) and you can see where that can get expensive...real quick.

Also, if you actually click on those names you can see that most of those voices were done by union voice actors. (just randomly click down the list you provided)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402224/fullcredits


I think that the game biz needs to give Hollywood the boot. Get rid of all the Hollywood voice acting and put those resources towards game development or giving your programmers / artists / designers a raise or bonus at the end of a project.
 
Wouldnt the whole right to work state laws apply in this siuatuion? In Texas its a right to work state. If union people go on strike employers can just replace them while they are on strike and those that are in the union can cross picket lines without being fined by the union. Im thinking that the particular laws of the state the developer/publisher are in would come into question as well.

So does this mean that all voice actors are guranteed at least $695 for each job? Just one gig a week is better than what 60 pecent of Americans make working 40 hours a week or more. At this point they truly have no more room to bitch about anything.
 
BoogerBomb said:
So does this mean that all voice actors are guranteed at least $695 for each job? Just one gig a week is better than what 60 pecent of Americans make working 40 hours a week or more. At this point they truly have no more room to bitch about anything.
Click to expand...

This is something they dont seem to get. This is why the demands they are making are not fair, and why they are being flammed for it, and rightfully so.

Do the rest of us 40+ hour, hard working people strike because we only make in a week, what you make in a day ? No.

We buck up and work, not sit around and complain about how are playboy lifestyles are not being paid for by our relatively easy, less hours then part time job.
 
BoogerBomb said:
Wouldnt the whole right to work state laws apply in this siuatuion? In Texas its a right to work state. If union people go on strike employers can just replace them while they are on strike and those that are in the union can cross picket lines without being fined by the union. Im thinking that the particular laws of the state the developer/publisher are in would come into question as well.
Click to expand...

I think you are right. It also all boils down to the fact that no one wants to be picketed or to cause a strike.

The game companies didn't just decide to cough up all these concessions as a "cookie" to make the union shut up...they have been hammering this out for 9 months (at least). The deadline was 6 months ago. this was just like any other deal, you give and you get.

If this was as easy as people are making it sound...and the union had no power, the game publishers would have just collectively said "screw you" and refused to negotiate.

Since this is a current "hot topic" I have discussed this at length with people I know in the industry and....like most people....I didn't realize how much pressure can be brought to bear by the union and how much of a hassle it is to deal with union actors.

It was obviously enough pressure to get these consessions.



bonkrowave said:
This is something they dont seem to get. This is why the demands they are making are not fair, and why they are being flammed for it, and rightfully so.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
I can't think of a single time in recent history that the word "union" has been mentioned when they were NOT causing a major hassle for everyone else involved.

I wouldn't mind one day being part of a union myself so that I too can benefit from much higher than average pay levels with much lower than average expectations. Oh wait, I'm not sure I could live with myself if that was the case...then again a 36% pay hike might make me reconsider any ethical misgivings.

Unions care about their own best interests, usually at the expense of everyone else. The entire "point" of a union (at least they way they told me back in grade school history class) was to help protect people who were categorically getting screwed. Unions these days are doing the screwing.

There's certain groups (school teachers being the first one to come to mind) that I'm always for giving a pay raise. Personally I don't think they can be paid enough (although I also think the standards they're held to in the USA are waaaay too low). People who are getting paid more for one sitting than I make in a full week at 40+ hours, AND who still can (or should) have another job on the side, are not people I have any sympathy for.
 
I'm a trained voice professional with radio experience and I do cartoon voices as well. Dang, I'd do video game voice overs for half the union's original rate. What a bunch of greedy whining bastards. Best of all, I'm not a union member. I'd proudly be a scab as I hate unions with a passion.
 
Let us not lose sight of the folks who develop the games who get really screwed with 60 and 80 hour works weeks during "crunch time" and don't get a damn dime for it.

Where is their "specified rest period for each hour spent..." ?

I am just amazed that the actors union has the power to negotiate and get "cookies to shut up" but programmers and the people actually making the game get no such cookie (which I am sure they would gladly take). They get no such concessions.

lame.

lame.

lame.

Anyone who doesn't see the absurdity of this whole situation needs to get up...walk into the boss’s office and demand specified rest periods and a 36% raise.
 
Shmuckety said:
Rest period...stressful sessions...WTF!!!!! :mad:

This is the most fucking rediculous thing ever. Fucking whiny voice acting bitches!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Tell that to the guy that did Ren & Stimpy. Voice acting can be extremely stressful if you're pushing yourself. Try screaming every play during a football game... you go hoarse (and what if you have a speaking engagement after the game?)

Voice actors are... whatever. Unions suck when they're unnecessary. They can be a good thing even though it's exceedingly rare that they are.

THE WORST THING is that devs are going to get shafted yet again and possibly the consumer as well. It's pretty rare when the consumer doesn't lose out in any situation. Bottom line, games will suck just a little more. And sucky games suck, which sucks from a general POV. ;)
 
JethroXP said:
Lol, if the programmers strike :) They'd have to have a union first. Besides, programmers are generally paid pretty well anyway.
Click to expand...

What do you consider "pretty well"?

30k?
35k?
40k?

What about 35k while having to work in NYC, or LA, or Dallas, or Orlando... the list goes on. These are the places where the majority of studios are. I have friends commuting 2 hours each way just so they can have their own place (no room mates etc) and still work in NYC.

You cannot live alone, in a nice place, close to downtown for anything short of about 60k a year in NYC. What about having to support a family on that, or adding a vehicle? 90% + of all studios are in large metropolitan areas, not out in the boonies where you can get a nice 2000sqft house and an acre for 120k.

The average programmer makes around 35k (USD) in the game industry. Thats great if you are fresh out of college, still living like you were in it, or at home with mom and dad, but for people who are not of that mentality, 35k is not much to go on.

Now.. outside of the game industry yes, programmers are generally paid quite will with the average somewhere around 60k iirc.
 
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