Venice solution on a budget.

T

TheToE!

[H] Brewmaster
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May 17, 2005
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Guys, this is my first post though Ive been following these boards for years. Im looking to build a new gaming rig (coming from a p4 2.8 i845). Im on a budget and was thinking 3000+ and DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 SLI-DR, and push it to the limit. Is this the board to go for? MSI ive heard is good as well. What are your thoughts for a good mobo for this setup? Also what RAM would you run? Any info and suggestions are appreciated. BTW cs(Eclipse) is my hero!


Thanks,
-ToE
 
My inclination would be to consider a “San Diego” based chip at this point, the extra cache will come in handy.

I hear good things about the DFI board but I admit to being an MSI fan.

In either case I don’t think you need to go overboard on the ram. With the 64 chips even with the use of a RAM divider you just won’t lose enough performance to make any difference.

Just some thoughts
 
DFI Lanparty UT nF4 Ultra-D
Venice 3200+
TwinMOS Speed Premium

Oh wait...that's more or less what I have. Except the CPU. You can do more or less as well with the 3000+ but it's trickier to OC.
 
3000+ only has a 9x multiplier, so if you want to get 2.7GHz (pretty easily obtainable with most Rev. E A64 proccys) you have to run a HT clock (sorta like FSB...not at all really, but it'll give you the general idea) of 300 which is beyond the ability of many motherboards. Even with the good ones (DFI :D ) it's going to take a bit of tweaking.

3200+ has a 10x so it only takes 270 to get the same clock...much easier and more boards can do it.
 
As far as the SLI dfi board, why not just get a ultra D board and do the pencil trick to unlock the SLI feature?
 
Thats what I was going to ask! How close is the ultra-d to the SLI? Are they the same chipset? Also what are the thoughts on the MSI Neo4 SLI? Finally another thing, my psu is a Ultra X connect 500w witha 20 pin atx header, will the 24 pin adapter work?

Thanks!
 
I'm running a DFI Lanparty UT nF4 Ultra-D w/ SLI mod. All I had to do was close a pair of contacts on the chipset.

X-connect = absolute crap if I'm remembering correctly.

You really really really should have an actual 24-pin PSU.

MSI is the second best for A64, DFI is the best. If you need to use 939+AGP, DFI's isn't out yet so it'd go to MSI for the time being.
 
If you go with a DFI board ultra D sli or non sli, they now say you must have a PSU with the 24 pin cable, no 20 pin or 20>24 pin adapters. Its in your best interest. You spend all this money on parts, just spend the extra 60-90 bucks a good PSU that will power you into technology later down the road.
I have heard Ultra's are re-badged junk. Do a search in this forum I know for a fact there were to guys that had very bad luck with the ultra X connects. I would go with a more trusted name. Some good ones I have heard and read reviews, Seasonic, OCZ Line, and Antec Neo Power. I am sure that there are more out there, thats just what came to mind!
 
Ya the X connect was a gift I recieved for Christmas. I'll get a new psu , just wanted to make sure i really needed it. A lot of folks really dont like the Ultra X connect for some reason (unstable rails?). If I have to get a new one I'll most likely go for OCZ modstream or powerstream.
 
The OCZ power supplies are pretty nice. X-connect...well it might work if the system wasn't too demanding, but it's just begging for the whole thing to go Chernobyl.
 
If you're running a low-end video card and not many peripherals, then I could see your psu being ok. It might unexpectedly die, which would suck, but I don't think there'd be a 100% chance of failure. Reassuring, right? :)

Anyway, there were a few long threads awhile back on those psu's. Some people had horrible experiences, with the things dying for no reason. Others swore by theirs as the best thing since sliced bread(generally these were the people measuring voltage through less accurate means). Regardless, I don't suggest using a highly conroversial psu with expensive parts. Yes, it might work fine, and it might even work better than something else. But it's no lie that they aren't top notch products, and that many of them ended up ruining systems. Additionally, I don't think any mod in the psu forum would go near them, although maybe with some coaxing and alcohol they would ;)


Btw, aren't you going with an aftermarket cpu cooler if you're going to oc that thing?
 
go to DFI street there is a big locked article on this topic. DFI will not give support etc etc if you use adpater or just 20 pins. I mean if it burnt up, I dont 100% how they would know, but why get yourself more aggrivation than its worth? get yourself the 24 pin psu as its going to be used for a while longer (hopefully) although I think it was the AMD X2's needing 550-600 watt min?
 
I will definatley go with aftermarket cooling, which leads me to my next question...Ive heard good things about the Zalman, whats your thoughts on heatsinks for this setup? BTW thanks for all the great info you guys have given.

-ToE
 
Zalman's always nice. Gotta keep the wires neat though or they'll get caught in the heatsink.

I'm using (as are many others) a Thermalright XP-90.
 
One note though...the stock cooling is quite adequate. Unless something is totally futzed up, these things get a normal temp just over 30C no matter what's on it.
 
ashmedai said:
3000+ only has a 9x multiplier, so if you want to get 2.7GHz (pretty easily obtainable with most Rev. E A64 proccys) you have to run a HT clock (sorta like FSB...not at all really, but it'll give you the general idea) of 300 which is beyond the ability of many motherboards. Even with the good ones (DFI :D ) it's going to take a bit of tweaking.

3200+ has a 10x so it only takes 270 to get the same clock...much easier and more boards can do it.
Click to expand...



How much trouble would it be to get the 3000 up to 2.4 or 2.5? What would the normal top-end be for a 3000 without a lot of tricks that it takes a pro to do? I'm doing research for my first build and I'm just curious. Thanks.
 
2.4~2.5, easy enough. That's also around 270 which most motherboards can cut.

If you get one of the DFI or MSI ones you should be able to do 300 with some tweaking (plus several of us here have done it now so we know roughly what to try :D ). Better odds on the DFI. Not every motherboard can handle it though.
 
Chaintech VNF4 and a 3000+ is cheapest way to satisfactorily get into venice, 939, and PCI-e on a budget. Keep the $ flowing best you can for GPU. Got a little more to spend... up to a 3200+ and/or DFI Ultra (you seemed to have landed here in stage2 selecting the DFI side of the OR - good job).... still some more $ get a 3700+. More still? FX, SLI, 2405FPW. :D
 
Yeah I saw you knock them in another thread... I've had two. So I'm curious what you're issue with them is. I started at budget and went all the way to uber in three sentences if you can call it that. Call it the cliff notes on the range... personally I wouldnt jump on a 3000+ either, glad yours is good, but since I started with "budget", it was the choice. Since everyone else was going into OCZ PSU's I felt it ok to get into FX-ville for a finale.

If you've never used the chaintech.. excuse me for advising that from fist hand experience if you're strapped for cash... or in my case need a backup... a Chaintech is a fine choice. I am typing this on an Ultra-D and a 3200+, so obviously its easy for me to reccommend either of them seeing as I paid the $ for both of those too. They were obviously worth the scratch and were my absolute latest choice for hi val but performing computer. Waiting to drop the bomb soon.
 
Well they're not as bad as Gigabyte. But the ones I've used weren't exactly stable either. Haven't used that specific one but I've used motherboards, video cards, and sound cards by them, and wasn't satisfied with any of their products that I had contact with.

There's a Foxconn one that's slightly cheaper that from my experiance would be more reliable.

Also it's exactly the same price as one of MSI's, and theirs are generally rated as the second-best to DFI's. So even if you want to blow off what I say about Chaintech, why not get the one for the same price that's one of the highest rated?
 
Which do you mean the non-Ultra Neo4-F or whatever? That's considered the best 2nd choice for DFI? :confused: Wow, i just wish i had some screenies still on this rig... think VNF-250 value on this one. I gambled this being akin to it's successor and am 2 for 2. I always thought MSI would be a good choice in the $80 range but picked the chaintech on just having the Ultra. Possibly binned to not do 200*5 HTT... I just don't want SE style. And Foxconn... come on! This chaintech being one of the first out... their following wondered if it would be the "next" VNF-250. I can't think of a good Foxconn anything. Yep, I guess we consider them to be in diff leagues... Foxconn! Yikes!
 
Bah, some extra onboard stuff. Matters to some people I guess. Otherwise it's functionally very similar. In that price range I'd definately go with the MSI motherboard. I think it's nF3/AGP cousin is around the same price too, although that could just be my memory playing tricks.
 
Well Im pretty sure im gonna go with Ultra D and a 3200+, seems to be the surest bet to get to 2.6-2.7 range im shootin for. Now what PSU would you go with for this setup? Thanks for all the help everyone has given so far!
 
Fortron, Antec, OCZ seem to be pretty popular brands. Make sure it's a native 24-pin supply, preferably with active PFC, and post the thing here before you buy it just in case it's known to be a POS.
 
After looking around, I think im gonna go with the Fortron Blue Storm..Thanks for the help!
 
TheToE! said:
Thats what I was going to ask! How close is the ultra-d to the SLI? Are they the same chipset? Also what are the thoughts on the MSI Neo4 SLI? Finally another thing, my psu is a Ultra X connect 500w witha 20 pin atx header, will the 24 pin adapter work?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Unless you actually plan on running a SLI setup right now i would suggest just getting the DFI Ultra-D. Its the same board except for a few features like SLI support of course and an extra 4 SATA ports.

I would get a different PSU. Ultra X-Connect's are descent but definitely not high quality. OCZ PowerStreams and ModStreams are very good and so are the new Antec PSU's like the NeoPower and TruePower II and TrueBlue II.

And from the benchmarks i'm seeing the San Diego cores are not worth the extra cash unless you dont plan on overclocking. If your going to overclock the 3200+ Venice with a 10x multi is a much better purchase. Its over $100 cheaper and runs cooler then the SD cores.
 
burningrave101 said:
Unless you actually plan on running a SLI setup right now i would suggest just getting the DFI Ultra-D. Its the same board except for a few features like SLI support of course and an extra 4 SATA ports.
Click to expand...

There are FOUR versions of the DFI Lanparty UT nF4 motherboard. Two SLI, two non-SLI (but moddable to SLI), and of those one has extra RAID and the other doesn't (thus the -DR vs -D, R for RAID).


burningrave101 said:
I would get a different PSU. Ultra X-Connect's are descent but definitely not high quality. OCZ PowerStreams and ModStreams are very good and so are the new Antec PSU's like the NeoPower and TruePower II and TrueBlue II.
Click to expand...

X-Connects suck ducks. On a low-end low-demand system this will obviously be less evident and you may be able to get away with using one. But high-end video cards alone are a major power draw.

OCZ power supplies are way up towards the top of the Very Good list. Antec...I have a NeoPower myself ($50 off, couldn't resist), but I'm told that sometimes they have issues on nForce4 systems (read a random post saying so by Angry_Games on DFI-Street this morning).


burningrave101 said:
And from the benchmarks i'm seeing the San Diego cores are not worth the extra cash unless you dont plan on overclocking. If your going to overclock the 3200+ Venice with a 10x multi is a much better purchase. Its over $100 cheaper and runs cooler then the SD cores.
Click to expand...

Haven't seen anything to the effect that it runs cooler and I would tend to believe that's not correct until I see otherwise.

However the extra cache isn't going to make a huge difference - although there WILL be one, more or less depending on what kind of application you're using and how overclocked it is as it becomes more pronounced as you OC. If you have to worry about money, just go with the Venice 3200+, if you don't as much and want every bit of performance you can get, go with the San Diego 3700+ (which has an 11x multi to boot). If you're not going to overclock...well what the hell are you getting a Rev. E chip for and then not planning to overclock it? Go read Eclipse's guide, it's easy and safe if you follow basic procedures like stability testing.
 
ashmedai said:
Haven't seen anything to the effect that it runs cooler and I would tend to believe that's not correct until I see otherwise.
Click to expand...

The added transistor count from the increased L2 cache size increases the heat output. Its impossible for the San Diego to run as cool as the Venice because of this. But if you need proof all you have to do is look at the temps of users that have overclocked San Diego's and overclocked Venice cores. That doesn't mean that the San Diego cores run overly hot it just means that the Venice cores run cooler.
 
burningrave101 said:
The added transistor count from the increased L2 cache size increases the heat output. Its impossible for the San Diego to run as cool as the Venice because of this. But if you need proof all you have to do is look at the temps of users that have overclocked San Diego's and overclocked Venice cores. That doesn't mean that the San Diego cores run overly hot it just means that the Venice cores run cooler.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Venice has the extra cache disabled, rather than San Diego having it added.
 
Huh. That makes more sense, I couldn't figure out a justification of the non-extra-cache San Diego before.

Exactly how many degrees are we talking, anyway? Obviously it'll increase with speed/voltage, but is it going to be 1-2 degrees or 10-20?
 
ashmedai said:
I'm pretty sure Venice has the extra cache disabled, rather than San Diego having it added.
Click to expand...
not all. die space is valuable to AMD, being very fab limited. thus they try to squeeze everything they can.

the venice cores are true 512kb parts, and possibly some disabled down to 256kb or 128kb for semprons
san diego is 1mb, with some 512kb as the 3500+ :D
 
hey Eclipse,

you know the funny thing, the original poster mentions that cs(Eclipse) is his hero? who the hell is that?!?!?!? :p

I took a tour of the AMD fab in Austin about a year ago.

die wafers and prototype CPUs laying all over the place...just wanted to steal everything; they didn't seem to care too much about them (on the local level).

 
Tenchi4U said:
hey Eclipse,

you know the funny thing, the original poster mentions that cs(Eclipse) is his hero? who the hell is that?!?!?!? :p
Click to expand...
hahahaha!!! good call on that one, i don't think i made it that far into the post *hides*
:p :D

as a side note though.. i was talking to an engineer over at amd the other day. i think he single handedly convinced me to work there. :D
 
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