Vega Rumors

[Ieldra]

He was saying Titan X vs Vega FE for productivity, that the Titan X doesn't have full fledged productivity drivers... (or at least DP performance is hampered somehow to 1/32).

So that is kinda a niche nVidia ran away from. Maybe Vega FE will force nVidia to put out a prosumer card? They neutered the Titan line after the first one for productivity and basically made it into "get the top end sooner" premium fee. (which sucks since it kills the resell value)

Its not about DP. Nvidia split their GPU stack since Kepler. Only one chip has high rate DP. GP100 now, GK110 and GK210 previously.

The quadro and (ex) firepro line dont necessarily offer DP, only application certification and a more stable driver set, and ECC.

If Vega is running pro drivers, then comparing it to Titan X is just dumb.

 

[Snowdog]

I said Titan is hampered by drivers in specview, it is beaten by the quadro equivalent of a 1070.

Fury X is the same.

Vega FE *is* running the high performance pro drivers, and it doesn't compare very favorably to its quadro competition

Vega FE is *NOT* pro drivers (AKA FirePro), it is running unfinished consumer drivers.

 

[razor1]

Vega FE is *NOT* pro drivers (AKA FirePro), it is running unfinished consumer drivers.

It has both pro (non certified) and gaming drivers. The difference is just the certification which cost a butt load of money cause each program that needs certification costs money and there are a lot of programs.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

Its not about DP. Nvidia split their GPU stack since Kepler. Only one chip has high rate DP. GP100 now, GK110 and GK210 previously.

The quadro and (ex) firepro line dont necessarily offer DP, only application certification and a more stable driver set, and ECC.

If Vega is running pro drivers, then comparing it to Titan X is just dumb.

They are comparing it to the price point. The Quadro line is a butt load more expensive. In almost works as a comparison in this sense: Below a Quadro certification spec, but still faster than a Titan. I'm not saying it's a valid comparison for all people. That's kind of a very limited market like the uber small form factor Fury. (Which was a butt stupid price point given it's capabilities)

It doesn't mean that FE can't be certified with professional drivers in the future though. And no one has asked AMD if that is their plan.

 

[Snowdog]

It has both pro (non certified) and gaming drivers. The difference is just the certification which cost a butt load of money cause each program that needs certification costs money and there are a lot of programs.

Pro Non certified sounds like bullshit to me. Does the card run anything that can't run on a RX 580?

 

[razor1]

Pro Non certified sounds like bullshit to me. Does the card run anything that can't run on a RX 580?

Certification really means shit for anything, like WHQL certification. Its just there to make people feel better and give warranty to an item. So if something goes wrong, their ass is covered.

 

[Ocellaris]

Certification really means shit for anything, like WHQL certification. Its just there to make people feel better and give warranty to an item. So if something goes wrong, their ass is covered.

Everyone who touches CAD work where I am has a Quadro card now because we need them to work. Running GeForce cards didn't cut it.

 

[razor1]

Everyone who touches CAD work where I am has a Quadro card now because we need them to work. Running GeForce cards didn't cut it.

the drivers are very necessary, the certification process isn't , the certification process its to warranty the item (and guarantee that it will work) for the job at hand. And that is why they cost more. The company is saying it will work with a certain software package with no problems. But we know how that turns out lol.

 

[Snowdog]

Certification really means shit for anything, like WHQL certification. Its just there to make people feel better and give warranty to an item. So if something goes wrong, their ass is covered.

You didn't answer the question. Does Vega run anything that an RX580 won't?

 

[razor1]

it can run everything a rx580 does, but the pro (non certified) drivers unlike certain features, API specific features that pro applications use.

 

[Snowdog]

it can run everything a rx580 does, but the pro (non certified) drivers unlike certain features, API specific features that pro applications use.

So which Pro applications won't work with an RX 580?

 

[razor1]

They will work they will just go slower cause they don't have those extensions enabled in the drivers so lets say instead of doing single pass rendering of two sided polygons, it has to do 2 passes to render both sides then combine the outputs. They loose half of its performance.

 

[Snowdog]

They will work they will just go slower cause they don't have those extensions enabled in the drivers so lets say instead of doing single pass rendering of two sided polygons, it has to do 2 passes to render both sides then combine the outputs. They loose half of its performance.

Real world Example?

 

[razor1]

any view port in Maya or 3dsmax, running Ogl. Actually any 3d modeller that uses Open Gl. Which pretty much is all of them, 3d max added d3d a few years ago, not sure if its using what by default though. Haven't switched API rendering tools in modeller packages for a while now.

There are other differences too.


https://www.titancomputers.com/Articles.asp?ID=258

 

[Snowdog]

Because when I look at reviews, I see things like this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-pro-wx-7100,4896-3.html

While we've added desktop-class cards in the past, we're not doing that today. If you run software that requires a certified graphics driver, you won't get very far with a Radeon or GeForce since many functions become unavailable. One example is SolidWorks 2016, which we tested both with and without FSAA in the SPECapc workload:

It sounds like if you need pro graphics card, certified drivers are a BIG part of what it provides, and without certified drivers, it's pro status is very questionable.

 

[razor1]

Because when I look at reviews, I see things like this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-pro-wx-7100,4896-3.html


It sounds like if you need pro graphics card, certified drivers are a BIG part of what it provides, and without certified drivers, it's pro status is very questionable.

yes you do need for certain features, that is what I'm saying, for view port AA you need a pro card, not saying you don't. Vega can do those things, its just not certified to do those things. I got confused was thinking what you were asking is if a regular card can run any application that a pro card can run, that answer is yes, can a regular card run the features of a pro card, that answer is no. Pro cards (Vega included even though not certified), are there for a reason.

A professional firm will not buy non certified products, those products need to be tested to ensure accuracy. Multi billion dollar project, why would they skimp on a GPU when it could end up costing them millions. And that is where Vega sits, its not for professionals, its for people at home that need to do some work on their own. I think it was stated a few times, its in an odd place, cause a true professional can get a Quadro card that will beat the living crap out of Vega for less than Vega. So what is the point of Vega then a person that also wants to game on the same system? Well good luck with that, just slap in a gaming card into the same system lol.

 

[Snowdog]

yes you do need for certain features, that is what I'm saying, for view port AA you need a pro card, not saying you don't. Vega can do those things, its just not certified to do those things. I got confused was thinking what you were asking is if a regular card can run any application that a pro card can run, that answer is yes, can a regular card run the features of a pro card, that answer is no. Pro cards (Vega included even though not certified), are there for a reason.

It doesn't appear that Vega has Certified drivers, it looks more like consumer drivers:
https://www.digitaltrends.com/compu...ion-competitive-with-nvidia-geforce-titan-xp/

"
It’s not a completely apples-to-apples comparison, because Vega Frontier Edition doesn’t come with the certified drivers that highlight professional GPUs like Nvidia’s Quadro line. But as AMD pointed out, many smaller companies use consumer-level cards without certification due to their high price-performance ratios — an Nvidia Quadro that matches this level of performance would start at $2,000 for the Quadro P5000 and quickly ramp up to $6,000 for a Quadro P6000.
"

 

[razor1]

It doesn't appear that Vega has Certified drivers, it looks more like consumer drivers:
https://www.digitaltrends.com/compu...ion-competitive-with-nvidia-geforce-titan-xp/

"
It’s not a completely apples-to-apples comparison, because Vega Frontier Edition doesn’t come with the certified drivers that highlight professional GPUs like Nvidia’s Quadro line. But as AMD pointed out, many smaller companies use consumer-level cards without certification due to their high price-performance ratios — an Nvidia Quadro that matches this level of performance would start at $2,000 for the Quadro P5000 and quickly ramp up to $6,000 for a Quadro P6000.
"

Well they skewed the shit out of that one, a Quadro that matches Vega is only 800 bucks.

take certification out of the picture, its like this. AMD made pro drivers and gaming drivers for Vega FE. But after making the pro drivers they didn't certify the hardware with those drivers with the software companies. That is the only difference. The cost of certification isn't there its still has the features of the pro though.

 

[Michaelius]

Because when I look at reviews, I see things like this:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-pro-wx-7100,4896-3.html


It sounds like if you need pro graphics card, certified drivers are a BIG part of what it provides, and without certified drivers, it's pro status is very questionable.

It's pretty obvious that this is AMD Titan designed to bleed the faithful and the whole it's for pro marketing is just to avoid comparison to Titan which AMD marketing attacked for years.



The only Pro usage I can think of is game development if companies want headstart for PS5 development.

 

[razor1]

It's pretty obvious that this is AMD Titan designed to bleed the faithful and the whole it's for pro marketing is just to avoid comparison to Titan which AMD marketing attacked for years.



The only Pro usage I can think of is game development if companies want headstart for PS5 development.

attacked and failed to penetrate.

and even for PS5 developement its a no go, cause no one knows what feature set PS5 will have at this point, cause Sony tends to use their own API's.

 

[Ocellaris]

It doesn't appear that Vega has Certified drivers, it looks more like consumer drivers:
https://www.digitaltrends.com/compu...ion-competitive-with-nvidia-geforce-titan-xp/

"
It’s not a completely apples-to-apples comparison, because Vega Frontier Edition doesn’t come with the certified drivers that highlight professional GPUs like Nvidia’s Quadro line. But as AMD pointed out, many smaller companies use consumer-level cards without certification due to their high price-performance ratios — an Nvidia Quadro that matches this level of performance would start at $2,000 for the Quadro P5000 and quickly ramp up to $6,000 for a Quadro P6000.
"

AMD's problem is businesses in the market for a $1000 GPU for "Pro" features will just buy a $1000 certified Quadro.

The market for non certified professional cards is close to non existent. AMD isn't even marketing the specific pro advantages of Vega FE over a Radeon RX580.

 

[razor1]

AMD's problem is businesses in the market for a $1000 GPU for "Pro" features will just buy a $1000 certified Quadro.

and if its a team of 10 engineers, quadros for all them, even if they are 5k more a piece, that is 50 k, that won't even cover the salary of 1 guy for a year. And if they are leasing those systems, that like 25k a year, it makes no sense even for small firms to skimp on the cost of the fastest quadros..... Cause if 10 engineers are working on a project that project is probably bringing in a million bucks or more in profit for the duration.

 

[razor1]

Shit tiny advertising firms in NYC use quadros, the cost of pro units are not great when projects range from 200k all the way up to millions. A simple banner ad costs anywhere from 8k all the way up to 25k depending on sizes, quantity and impressions.

 

[JustReason]

My god... Seriously I know most of you have been on here for years and were present and commenting on the Pro-Duo from AMD using dual Fury dies. This card is marketed THE EXACT SAME F'N WAY = A GPU with pro and gaming level abilities for Game makers to better utilize the hardware and have JUST ONE GPU (dual die in the Pro-Duo case) to curtail costs, likely Indie/small studios. The Pro-Duo was actually showcased and touted more as a VR setup back when the VR PR campaigns were going strong after DX12. This card the VegaFE is much the same and targeting the very same Indie/small studio market. It isn't after the advertising Firms Or AAA studios, nor the everyday Gamer.

It may be a very poorly placed niche market, there is a valid observation for that conclusion. But the market AMD made or that truly exists is as mentioned above, nothing more.

 

[Simplyfun]

It may be a very poorly placed niche market, there is a valid observation for that conclusion. But the market AMD made or that truly exists is as mentioned above, nothing more.

I think they revived that non existent market to launch something they wouldn't have to ship many of and stave off a shareholder lawsuit in the bargain.

 

[Dayaks]

My god... Seriously I know most of you have been on here for years and were present and commenting on the Pro-Duo from AMD using dual Fury dies. This card is marketed THE EXACT SAME F'N WAY = A GPU with pro and gaming level abilities for Game makers to better utilize the hardware and have JUST ONE GPU (dual die in the Pro-Duo case) to curtail costs, likely Indie/small studios. The Pro-Duo was actually showcased and touted more as a VR setup back when the VR PR campaigns were going strong after DX12. This card the VegaFE is much the same and targeting the very same Indie/small studio market. It isn't after the advertising Firms Or AAA studios, nor the everyday Gamer.

It may be a very poorly placed niche market, there is a valid observation for that conclusion. But the market AMD made or that truly exists is as mentioned above, nothing more.

Ah forgot that thing existed. I don't think many cared about it. There's so much interest in Vega since it's the first of it's kind and unfortunately the RX didn't drop first. If the RX dropped first no one would probably bat an eye at Vega FE.

 

[Chimpee]

Ah forgot that thing existed. I don't think many cared about it. There's so much interest in Vega since it's the first of it's kind and unfortunately the RX didn't drop first. If the RX dropped first no one would probably bat an eye at Vega FE.

Yup, considering at that time, Radeon Pro Duo cost more than getting 2 Fury X. I felt like it was pretty DOA by the time it was release.

 

[Ocellaris]

My god... Seriously I know most of you have been on here for years and were present and commenting on the Pro-Duo from AMD using dual Fury dies. This card is marketed THE EXACT SAME F'N WAY = A GPU with pro and gaming level abilities for Game makers to better utilize the hardware and have JUST ONE GPU (dual die in the Pro-Duo case) to curtail costs, likely Indie/small studios. The Pro-Duo was actually showcased and touted more as a VR setup back when the VR PR campaigns were going strong after DX12. This card the VegaFE is much the same and targeting the very same Indie/small studio market. It isn't after the advertising Firms Or AAA studios, nor the everyday Gamer.

It may be a very poorly placed niche market, there is a valid observation for that conclusion. But the market AMD made or that truly exists is as mentioned above, nothing more.

The Pro Duo is also a failed GPU by many standards. Coincidence?!?

 

[razor1]

My god... Seriously I know most of you have been on here for years and were present and commenting on the Pro-Duo from AMD using dual Fury dies. This card is marketed THE EXACT SAME F'N WAY = A GPU with pro and gaming level abilities for Game makers to better utilize the hardware and have JUST ONE GPU (dual die in the Pro-Duo case) to curtail costs, likely Indie/small studios. The Pro-Duo was actually showcased and touted more as a VR setup back when the VR PR campaigns were going strong after DX12. This card the VegaFE is much the same and targeting the very same Indie/small studio market. It isn't after the advertising Firms Or AAA studios, nor the everyday Gamer.

It may be a very poorly placed niche market, there is a valid observation for that conclusion. But the market AMD made or that truly exists is as mentioned above, nothing more.

its not better for game makers explained that earlier, if its got less performance than the gaming cards game makers can't use them, it makes it worse for them, they need the performance, the more the better. Features alone doesn't do it, the performance has to be there.

So an indie developer will look at the the FE and be like oh RX gives me so many more frames a second and is cheaper. Why the hell would they buy the FE? For their artists? Why would they do that when a quadro p 4000 is less than Vega FE and has similar performance in pro environments?

Its the same damn excuse nV gave for Titan level cards, to justify the prices, these are not pro even prosumer cards for the price they are going at doesn't matter how they spin them.

And pro duo is a crap example of a good indie card or pro card, its just crap when it doesn't function most of the time for current engines.

 

[Sodapopjones]

its not better for game makers explained that earlier, if its got less performance than the gaming cards game makers can't use them, it makes it worse for them, they need the performance, the more the better. Features alone doesn't do it, the performance has to be there.

So an indie developer will look at the the FE and be like oh RX gives me so many more frames a second and is cheaper. Why the hell would they buy the FE? For their artists? Why would they do that when a quadro p 4000 is less than Vega FE and has similar performance in pro environments?

Its the same damn excuse nV gave for Titan level cards, to justify the prices, these are not pro even prosumer cards for the price they are going at doesn't matter how they spin them.

And pro duo is a crap example of a good indie card or pro card, its just crap when it doesn't function most of the time for current engines.

Really, Indie developers are probably the last people that would buy a FE, every penny counts, and they are less inclined to try something that isn't proven. I see the FE as what could be sold to major developers that order in bulk, to help their margins, but at the same time, what does the FE do that would make them even warrant the purchase?

 

[razor1]

Really, Indie developers are probably the last people that would buy a FE, every penny counts, and they are less inclined to try something that isn't proven. I see the FE as what could be sold to major developers that order in bulk, to help their margins, but at the same time, what does the FE do that would make them even warrant the purchase?

yep pretty much its in no man's land.

 

[lolfail9001]

This card is marketed THE EXACT SAME F'N WAY = A GPU with pro and gaming level abilities for Game makers to better utilize the hardware and have JUST ONE GPU (dual die in the Pro-Duo case) to curtail costs, likely Indie/small studios.

Yes, and that joke sounded just as unfunny a year ago as it did today. At least that Pro Duo had a neat keychain packed with it, i would pay a $1500 for it if i had a spare $1500 to throw away on keychains. This card does not even have that.

 

[chenw]

I think he meant titan x doesn't work with nvidia pro drivers. No? Titan x is kinda hampered by nvidia when it comes to prosumer work. It's for gamers that want bragging rights otherwise there is no reason to get it over nvidia Ti models.

Or early adopters, depending on the exact version of Titan.

The first Pascal Titan X, it's an early adopter card, Titan Xp falls more into a show-off card than anything else, given the existence of 1080ti.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Is it out yet?

 

[Dayaks]

Is it out yet?

July 31st for the gaming version - Vega RX.

The version out now, Vega FE, people don't know what to make of it. A "prosumer" card that may or may not have good drivers.... but performs around 1070-1080 range.

 

[JustReason]

3 weeks yet

 

[Pieter3dnow]

even one of the most AMD fanboys and defender AdoredTV shame on the Vega FE gaming drivers..



look if you have one of your biggest fanboys shitting on your product, certainly you did something wrong..

You fail to understand things what exactly is someone with an opinion , AdoredTV is not some zealot which goes above and beyond for company X or Y. He looks at the topic a little differently from other sides where as you would like to see that as "defined".
In his opinion he said that AMD had big plans for certain aspects that became a reality with Zen , he did not know it at the time and he thought it was their GPU division, where he said that the smaller dies for Zen and their infinity fabric makes it easy to produce a better product.

Shitting on a product is something he does not do , he tends to say it is not interesting for certain markets and he is right most if not all of "us" would not ever buy a Radeon Vega Frontier Edition.

By saying that the RADEON RX VEGA is only interesting if the price is right would make a valid point but it is far from shitting on a product.

 

[razor1]

You fail to understand things what exactly is someone with an opinion , AdoredTV is not some zealot which goes above and beyond for company X or Y. He looks at the topic a little differently from other sides where as you would like to see what as "defined".
In his opinion he said that AMD had big plans for certain aspects that became a reality with Zen , he did not know it at the time and he thought it was their GPU division, where he said that the smaller dies for Zen and their infinity fabric makes it easy to produce a better product.

Shitting on a product is something he does not do , he tends to say it is not interesting for certain markets and he is right most if not all of "us" would not ever buy a Radeon Vega Frontier Edition.

By saying that the RADEON RX VEGA is only interesting if the price is right would make a valid point but it is far from shitting on a product.

yes yes and his masterplan went where? down the toilet right, cause Vega was the other half of the master plan and the first half failed before AMD could do anything with API's. Woops, he isn't a fan boy just a ignorant kid that can make youtube videos.

Valid points you say, 1080 performance at 300 watts is what he is expecting, pricing has to be much lower than the 1080 to be a viable product at least for people without freesync monitors. Still a bit fan in him if he doesn't understand that. I don't think AMD will be capable of getting lower than 500 bucks on this card, but lets see.

Power draw I can see a drop 20 watts or so cause of the less HBM stacks so that is about the only thing I can think off that would possible be beneficial to RX at the moment over the FE.

PS when has WhyCry been wrong with their "leaks" about upcoming products in the past 2 years. I can't think of one time when he was wrong.....

 

[noko]

Vega is turning into a yawn fest, for amount of time this has been in the works it looks terrible so far. If Vega FE VRMs are super inefficient (which does not appear to be the case), GPU overvolted to much (I doubt that) RTG is just running out of options and time. RTG using some of their pro driver paths to make Vega FE look better against Nvidia gaming cards but falls short of Quadro cards looks more of desperation to me. The plain truth is if Rx Vega is slower than the 1080 it will have to cost less to even have any kind of market sells. Miners might be interested (those who live in areas where electricity is cheap that is) if they are priced low. Seeing a 300w card only performing between a 1070 and 1080, 150w/180w cards, is a failure. If there is any magic left via drivers, most welcome, is to be seen.

 

[noko]

Scott Wasson talkes about Draw stream binning rasterizer, and IMO is very much downplaying it's likely performance boost. Stating that it comes in a the final stage and much software is already build to do a lot of culling at earlier stages.

The big potential boost comes from primative shaders, but that definitley requires special developer support:
~6mins

Thanks for the reply/answer. Nothing about tile base rasterizing I caught. So why the F___ is it performing so slow? Are my thoughts. So it looks like if developers program specifically for this architecture (sounds more like the FX 5800) you can get better performance out of it. I just don't see that happening and who wants to wait years for that if it ever happens - making this GPU almost pointless today. Maybe in single precision application like AI this GPU will find someone interested.