Tup3x
[H]ard|Gawd
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Not necessarily hot... If the clockspeeds are low enough it might be rather energy efficient. Then again Apple should have sourced some mobile GTX 1070/1080s then.
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Vega Rumors
- Thread starter grtitan
- Start date
You totally misunderstand. FreeSync and G-Sync are to avoid screen tearing when you're not running at your monitor's refresh rate, e.g. 144 Hz monitor but only getting 100 FPS. Nothing to do with what happens when running at the monitor's refresh rate, in fact normal V-Sync or a configured FPS limiter kicks in here.
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- 33,378
Vega RX is D.O.A. unless they can "fine wine" squeeze some performance out of it via drivers.
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yeah.. in two years they may be able to catch the last year GTX 1080 and even outperform slightly.. yeah.. to that moment we will have in the market GTX 3080..
There's no more fine wine technology for AMD, with polaris they learned to focus only on the latest and greatest series of card, instead of continuous investment in ancient things, in fact it's funny that all they driver claims are based on the RX 480/580 instead of the more powerful Fury X... with Vega will be the same, Polaris will be displaced, they will be lucky if improvements via drivers share common things that can also improve performance for older cards, but it won't be as it was in the past up to Fury X were they continued to support and improve things as old as the HD7000 series.. which was the reason to earn the so called "Fine Wine".. 6 years with the same architecture have that "advantage".
Jedibeeftrix
Limp Gawd
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hmmm, there must be some reason why Apple sticks with AMD refresh after resfresh...
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- 15,896
AMD needs the business and sells to Apple really cheaply.
Its called price and Open CL performance, nV doesn't support Open CL much and of course nV loves their margins.
I didn't see temp being an issue with Vega FE.
Stryke1983
Limp Gawd
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With Apple's reputation for pushing suppliers hard on price I'd imagine it was simply due to Nvidia not willing to cut their profit margins as low as AMD were as they aren't as desperate for the business. They have products that are comparable and better (i.e. performance and eficiency), so I wouldn't have thought it was anything to do with not having suitable products, etc.
The longer we wait for Vega, the more i agree with you: Vega is being delayed because it is quite hard to launch a viable product given current market competition.
The only way out is to pair Vega with a new monitor gen. Freesync has been a market sucess.
Yeah I look it at that way, freesync is really the only selling point of Vega right now (if the performance stays in tune with FE figures so far)
I think the bet on HBM hasn't gone well for AMD. It severely limited the supply of the Fury/FuryX and limited the capacity to 4 gb at the time. Its expensive and the manufacturers haven't yet shown that they are able to manufacture it reliably in bulk. Nvidia avoided being bit by the shortages by going with GDDR5/x for the gaming cards and only putting HBM on the really expensive professional options with high margins.
I wonder how key HBM is to the Vega architecture. Clearly on the NVIDIA side it was possible to swap GDDR5 and HBM with the same GPU. Would a GDDR5x version be possible as a Vega mid-end card that would have better supply?
I wonder how key HBM is to the Vega architecture. Clearly on the NVIDIA side it was possible to swap GDDR5 and HBM with the same GPU. Would a GDDR5x version be possible as a Vega mid-end card that would have better supply?
Tup3x
[H]ard|Gawd
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Also desktop Mac business is so tiny that they probably don't really care.
Nvidia seems to have leadership that understands marketing and launching a product that will satisfy both pros and gamers. They are keeping HBM to high end marker while going along with gddr type memory for consumer gaming products. It's a perfect strategy that makes sure shit doesn't bite you in the ass. They are going about it in a way where HBM eventually is more consumer friendly product and available in mass quantities. Heck gddr6 will be here as well and I wouldn't be surprised if Lisa has already told these dumb asses to have Navi support gddr6 and HBM both for pro and consumer market. Consumer market does not demand HBM especially in gaming. Hope they get this shit right with Navi and not repeat the same HBM supply issues they did with fury and Vega.
5150Joker
Supreme [H]ardness
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- Aug 1, 2005
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- 4,568
Looks like AMD is already in damage control by paying off PC World: http://www.pcworld.com/video/79095/...ion-benchmarking-and-gaming-first-impressions
I like how during the gaming benchmarks the host was too scared to flat out to say "well yeah Titan xP creams this thing in gaming" but instead blabs on about how he couldn't tell the difference by sitting at each PC and playing the games.
I like how during the gaming benchmarks the host was too scared to flat out to say "well yeah Titan xP creams this thing in gaming" but instead blabs on about how he couldn't tell the difference by sitting at each PC and playing the games.
hmm that came out before the pcper benchmarks, I do agree though AMD tried to hood wink a little bit. But they tried to avoid the gaming performance at all costs in that "interview". Think PC gamer guys were giving AMD the benefit of the doubt.
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- 11,934
Sure does seem like a lot of tip toeing in that video.
Found this sorry if it has already been posted...
http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2973-amd-vega-frontier-edition-reviewed-too-soon-to-call/page-4
Vega = 1080
http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2973-amd-vega-frontier-edition-reviewed-too-soon-to-call/page-4
Vega = 1080
That is totally inaccurate. You can't say they are paid off for not doing gaming benches or talking about it. If I was such outlet and truly AMD asked me to hold off on gaming benches until rx Vega launches . I would give them the courtesy and fully go all out on it if it sucked. I think [H] would do the same. It is unprofessional for them to bench Vega FE with games if AMD is continuously saying don't judge this product equivalent of gaming rx Vega. Shit I expect H to fully call amd out but I also know they are professional and would avoid benching Vega FE in gaming until the right time and fully nail the review.
kcthebrewer
[H]ard|Gawd
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Not saying they were 'paid' but if any company releases a $1000 prosumer card and the review site doesn't blast the company/product for equivalently half of it not working well, that is bullshit.
I could understand if it was a professional card, but it isn't.
Prosumer = gaming and professional hybrid
You can almost buy a better gaming card and a better professional card for the same amount of money the water cooled card costs (minus the mining price hike).
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The thing the baffles my mind about this whole fiasco called Vega.....AMD says it is a professional workstation card not intended for gaming, yet they show it benching against the Titan Xp #2.....Of course it is going to be slower. The Titan Xp #2 is a gaming card, even though Nvidia says its for the professional workstation.
So Nvidia lies about Titan Xp #2. And AMD lies about the Vega. 1 is a gaming card (nvidia) and one is a workstation card (AMD). Both companies are idiots if you ask me.
#2 if they really want to have fair benchmarks they need to bench the Vega against whatever quadro that has around the game specs as Vega and benchmark Workstation applications. Not gaming benchmarks.
Now I will say it is true AMD does not have gaming drivers ready, well because the gaming version of Vega isn't out. You cannot expect a Quadro to have the same gaming performance as a Titan Xp #2.....
So TBH I expected Vega FE to be slow in gaming. I did not expect it to be able to match the 1080ti or Titan Xp #2. 2 totally different markets for those video cards.
Either way the only bad thing you can really take from the Vega FE card is it uses a FUCKLOAD of power. I don't see that changing for RX Vega.
So to me anyone who thinks Vega is as fast as a 1080 is pulling shit out of their ass. Wait for RX Vega.
P.S. TBH it almost doesn't matter now since Vega is so late. Everyone has already bought 1070/1080/1080ti's. AMD is what almost 1 year late?
So Nvidia lies about Titan Xp #2. And AMD lies about the Vega. 1 is a gaming card (nvidia) and one is a workstation card (AMD). Both companies are idiots if you ask me.
#2 if they really want to have fair benchmarks they need to bench the Vega against whatever quadro that has around the game specs as Vega and benchmark Workstation applications. Not gaming benchmarks.
Now I will say it is true AMD does not have gaming drivers ready, well because the gaming version of Vega isn't out. You cannot expect a Quadro to have the same gaming performance as a Titan Xp #2.....
So TBH I expected Vega FE to be slow in gaming. I did not expect it to be able to match the 1080ti or Titan Xp #2. 2 totally different markets for those video cards.
Either way the only bad thing you can really take from the Vega FE card is it uses a FUCKLOAD of power. I don't see that changing for RX Vega.
So to me anyone who thinks Vega is as fast as a 1080 is pulling shit out of their ass. Wait for RX Vega.
P.S. TBH it almost doesn't matter now since Vega is so late. Everyone has already bought 1070/1080/1080ti's. AMD is what almost 1 year late?
Vega FE is going against Titan Xp same markets, so saying its not a gaming card and only geared toward professionals is disingenuous. AMD full well knows it was going to be compared to Titan X in all aspects, they just didn't want to show it in gaming lol, No other reason for leaving gaming (final results of AMD's own tests) out. They knew it wouldn't match up well. For 1k they had to show that it beat the 1080ti in all aspects otherwise that price doesn't hold up. And since a 16gb HBM2 card is going to be expensive to make, I don't think they have much room to play to keep even 30% margins for themselves.
I agree with the rest of what ya stated. But Quadro (6000) does play games just as good as Titan Xp
. But for 6k its not really worth the price of admission.
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I agree with the rest of what ya stated. But Quadro (6000) does play games just as good as Titan Xp
Interesting do you have proof that a Quadro 6000 with workstation drivers is as fast as a Titan Xp #2 in gaming?
yeah, posted it before in this thread, its faster than the Original Titan X (p) by 10-15%. So it will end up right around the Titan Xp performance range.
https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6
https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6
True but knowing well upfront that the company releasing it is continuously saying please don't judge it for gaming performance yet until rx Vega releases. Then yea I do think you have to wait until you have rx Vega to call out AMD. No one is making you buy this shit for gaming even amd themselves has said that. I think if you are buying this for just gaming you are just plain dumb. Amd themselves have said gamers should wait for rx Vega. Yea it could be shit but everything else is just forcing your own narrative about Vega. Yea I get it and I have called out amd already for releasing Vega FE and making it a product that is stuck in the middle of no where. But yea if they are saying don't judge Vega gaming performance until rx Vega comes out you owe them a month to fully call it DOA! Not that I would be getting it either way.
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The thing that makes me wonder if this is even fair or not. Is why did they not show the AMD pro cards in the actual gaming benchmarks? 3dmark isn't a game. Now I do not think the AMD pro card would fair much better but it is something to think about.
So basically the Quadro 6000 is Titan Xp #2....So can you install the quadro drivers for the Titan Xp #2?
kcthebrewer
[H]ard|Gawd
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- 1,728
The point is you don't release a product that consumers have to wait for it to work correctly. I hope RX drivers increase performance by 300%. I can and will only judge a product as it stands now not where it could stand months down the road.
They had hitman in there, which is notoriously bad for nV cards at launch. That means, the optimizations nV has done for that game is coming over to their pro line up. Same drivers, cause same hardware.
And 3dmark, as I stated before, all cards are pretty much optimized out of the box for that benchmark lol. So that kinda tells us the full potential of Vega FE and a good change of RX Vega too.
I totally agree. But all I am saying is a site like H will likely wait until rx Vega to fully judge gaming performance and respect AMDs statement. H tends to honor the wishes whether it's amd or nvidia but they also call it out if it sucks. I expect H to be professional in that regard. I believe if they wanted to do it they would have done it already.
Exactly. But RX Vega isn't even out. You shouldn't be buying FE edition. It's a bad fuckin buy all around.
Oh yeah its worth waiting, I'm sure there will be some performance uplift for Vega, specially the games we saw down at 1070 levels, its hard to imagine Vega FE just edging out a FuryX, really doesn't make sense. Hitman is one game that is finiky about architectures, saw that already. Then GTA V is heavy on the texture side of things, if Vega hasn't changed the amount of TMU's that will explain a lot.
Then we have AOTS and Firestrike, Firestrike should be stellar regardless, and AOTS is a very AMD friendly game and still one of the highest compute bound games if I'm not mistaken, I would expect to see better performance out it from Vega FE, didn't happen though, so once they release more info on the architecture I think the picture of what is holding it back will clear up fast.
And most of these results aren't all over the map, taking into account margin of error, they seem to line up with the increased TFlops and as AMD's chips get bigger drop in efficiency of previous GCN architectures namely Fiji. So it can't even be said that the drivers are in shambles.
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What lies? When I visit the Titan Xp page, I see lots of gaming stuff and nothing about workstations:
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/10series/titan-xp/
Dayaks
[H]F Junkie
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I was under the impression that the Titan for workstation bit died around Maxwell when they destroyed the DP performance?
dragonstongue
2[H]4U
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- 3,162
it dies around maxwell, cause Nv just like Intel overall are just incredibly greedy, which is awesome for business profits, terrible for consumers who will be buying those products, past history has shown this many times over.
Vega FE is by no means a bad, poorly designed, nor a slouch of a graphics card, but, using a non gaming graphics cards to play games (terrible analogy) would be no different than using a M1 Abrams for getting groceries, or a Ford Firefly to haul around a ton of bricks, judge the tool for the workload it was designed for.
Can it game, yes, was it meant for gaming, technically no, it was meant for content creation, number crunching and the like, just the same as my analogy above, an M1 Abrams am quite sure can handle going to the store to get a load of groceries, but man are you burning so much fuel for such an outside of scope task, suppose no different in a way with Vega FE, has all those extra bits and pieces that likely will not be needed for a pure gaming product (did Nv themselves not really chop things away going from say 200-400-500-600-700-900-1000 series, yes they most certainly did, chop away or optimize however you prefer it worded)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Direct from AMD website.
--Empower Scientists to Explore New Frontiers
Training techniques used today on neural networks in machine intelligence and deep learning
--Harness Vega to Fuel Creativity
Design visualization is playing an increasingly important role in helping manufacturers streamline design to manufacture workflows.
Advanced technologies, including real-time visualization, physically-based rendering and virtual reality (VR)
--No Barriers. No Compromises.
Game development is a creatively demanding, time-intensive process and any solution that can streamline game design workflows is an extremely valuable benefit for developers.
The Radeon™ Vega Frontier Edition graphics card will simplify and accelerate game creation by providing a single GPU that is optimized for every stage of their workflow, from asset production, to playtesting, to performance optimization
------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
The way I can rationalize this is simple, there are many cards out there that are meant for brute force insane speeds for GAMING, you do not need a card running at breakneck speeds to CREATE the games, or applications, you want STABLE REPEATABLE results. If Vega FE is able to create the assets/game/crunch the numbers while using reasonable power producing non excessive waste heat to produce the desired results while also being a reasonable cost of admission, did it not achieve its design goals?
I think so. At least it has everything under the hood sorta speak to be able to do it all quite, to extremely well. Maybe just maybe there are high end users that need that oomph no other product currently offers, and they are unwilling or unable to spend many thousands upon thousands of dollars to go to a full blown workstation environment, at the very least NOW, they have an option, is this a bad thing?
IMO Nv did a worse disservice to the high end desktop (or at least those with lots of $ to burn) by castrating DP performance, again, not bad for business, focus on workstation for workstation tasks, but, Titan should have always remained that "happy middle ground" not quite workstation, but above gaming class as well, it made sense to me, if you had the $ and had the need, at least there was that "new" option without spending a boatload of $ to get a dedicated card.
Vega FE at the very least is exactly that happy middle ground AMD style, am quite certain once they have had time to fine tune drivers for it, it very much will be a unique product line for AMD, IMO, not a bad thing, if you can afford/need it, for everyone else, we will have various RX cards
Vega FE is by no means a bad, poorly designed, nor a slouch of a graphics card, but, using a non gaming graphics cards to play games (terrible analogy) would be no different than using a M1 Abrams for getting groceries, or a Ford Firefly to haul around a ton of bricks, judge the tool for the workload it was designed for.
Can it game, yes, was it meant for gaming, technically no, it was meant for content creation, number crunching and the like, just the same as my analogy above, an M1 Abrams am quite sure can handle going to the store to get a load of groceries, but man are you burning so much fuel for such an outside of scope task, suppose no different in a way with Vega FE, has all those extra bits and pieces that likely will not be needed for a pure gaming product (did Nv themselves not really chop things away going from say 200-400-500-600-700-900-1000 series, yes they most certainly did, chop away or optimize however you prefer it worded)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Direct from AMD website.
--Empower Scientists to Explore New Frontiers
Training techniques used today on neural networks in machine intelligence and deep learning
--Harness Vega to Fuel Creativity
Design visualization is playing an increasingly important role in helping manufacturers streamline design to manufacture workflows.
Advanced technologies, including real-time visualization, physically-based rendering and virtual reality (VR)
--No Barriers. No Compromises.
Game development is a creatively demanding, time-intensive process and any solution that can streamline game design workflows is an extremely valuable benefit for developers.
The Radeon™ Vega Frontier Edition graphics card will simplify and accelerate game creation by providing a single GPU that is optimized for every stage of their workflow, from asset production, to playtesting, to performance optimization
------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
The way I can rationalize this is simple, there are many cards out there that are meant for brute force insane speeds for GAMING, you do not need a card running at breakneck speeds to CREATE the games, or applications, you want STABLE REPEATABLE results. If Vega FE is able to create the assets/game/crunch the numbers while using reasonable power producing non excessive waste heat to produce the desired results while also being a reasonable cost of admission, did it not achieve its design goals?
I think so. At least it has everything under the hood sorta speak to be able to do it all quite, to extremely well. Maybe just maybe there are high end users that need that oomph no other product currently offers, and they are unwilling or unable to spend many thousands upon thousands of dollars to go to a full blown workstation environment, at the very least NOW, they have an option, is this a bad thing?
IMO Nv did a worse disservice to the high end desktop (or at least those with lots of $ to burn) by castrating DP performance, again, not bad for business, focus on workstation for workstation tasks, but, Titan should have always remained that "happy middle ground" not quite workstation, but above gaming class as well, it made sense to me, if you had the $ and had the need, at least there was that "new" option without spending a boatload of $ to get a dedicated card.
Vega FE at the very least is exactly that happy middle ground AMD style, am quite certain once they have had time to fine tune drivers for it, it very much will be a unique product line for AMD, IMO, not a bad thing, if you can afford/need it, for everyone else, we will have various RX cards
it dies around maxwell, cause Nv just like Intel overall are just incredibly greedy, which is awesome for business profits, terrible for consumers who will be buying those products, past history has shown this many times over.
Vega FE is by no means a bad, poorly designed, nor a slouch of a graphics card, but, using a non gaming graphics cards to play games (terrible analogy) would be no different than using a M1 Abrams for getting groceries, or a Ford Firefly to haul around a ton of bricks, judge the tool for the workload it was designed for.
Can it game, yes, was it meant for gaming, technically no, it was meant for content creation, number crunching and the like, just the same as my analogy above, an M1 Abrams am quite sure can handle going to the store to get a load of groceries, but man are you burning so much fuel for such an outside of scope task, suppose no different in a way with Vega FE, has all those extra bits and pieces that likely will not be needed for a pure gaming product (did Nv themselves not really chop things away going from say 200-400-500-600-700-900-1000 series, yes they most certainly did, chop away or optimize however you prefer it worded)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Direct from AMD website.
--Empower Scientists to Explore New Frontiers
Training techniques used today on neural networks in machine intelligence and deep learning
--Harness Vega to Fuel Creativity
Design visualization is playing an increasingly important role in helping manufacturers streamline design to manufacture workflows.
Advanced technologies, including real-time visualization, physically-based rendering and virtual reality (VR)
--No Barriers. No Compromises.
Game development is a creatively demanding, time-intensive process and any solution that can streamline game design workflows is an extremely valuable benefit for developers.
The Radeon™ Vega Frontier Edition graphics card will simplify and accelerate game creation by providing a single GPU that is optimized for every stage of their workflow, from asset production, to playtesting, to performance optimization
------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
The way I can rationalize this is simple, there are many cards out there that are meant for brute force insane speeds for GAMING, you do not need a card running at breakneck speeds to CREATE the games, or applications, you want STABLE REPEATABLE results. If Vega FE is able to create the assets/game/crunch the numbers while using reasonable power producing non excessive waste heat to produce the desired results while also being a reasonable cost of admission, did it not achieve its design goals?
I think so. At least it has everything under the hood sorta speak to be able to do it all quite, to extremely well. Maybe just maybe there are high end users that need that oomph no other product currently offers, and they are unwilling or unable to spend many thousands upon thousands of dollars to go to a full blown workstation environment, at the very least NOW, they have an option, is this a bad thing?
IMO Nv did a worse disservice to the high end desktop (or at least those with lots of $ to burn) by castrating DP performance, again, not bad for business, focus on workstation for workstation tasks, but, Titan should have always remained that "happy middle ground" not quite workstation, but above gaming class as well, it made sense to me, if you had the $ and had the need, at least there was that "new" option without spending a boatload of $ to get a dedicated card.
Vega FE at the very least is exactly that happy middle ground AMD style, am quite certain once they have had time to fine tune drivers for it, it very much will be a unique product line for AMD, IMO, not a bad thing, if you can afford/need it, for everyone else, we will have various RX cards
Actually making games you need cards that are faster than what is out there if possible lol. When using engine editors and what not (debug code, which was talked about earlier in this thread), they go slower then the end released game does. By a factor or 50 to 75 % slower depending on what you are doing. So it would be nice that, as a game dev we don't need to turn down settings when doing certain things. But for the most part we do have to turn things down when level designing and layout. Visual scripting or looking at physics with bound boxes activated, particles and there physical arrangements, triggers, flags, and what not, all have many extra things that are drawn in editors that don't appear in games that radically reduce frame rates sometimes to a crawl.
So would you want a Vega FE if it can't run lets say UE4 as fast as a 1080ti or Titan Xp for game dev knowing these things? Same engine is used in game and in editor so it better be able to run games well otherwise the editor is going to run with the same discrepancies.
There is no middle ground in game dev, all engines are pretty much WYSIWYG, so if you believe AMD in that game dev's don't need that horse power, they are feeding you a line of BS. They need it much more than gamers.
I remember making games with the hammer editor (levels), it was slower than shit on the hardware out at that time, it was so bad it was painful. At least today's hardware isn't that bad, but it can still be far from ideal when the horsepower isn't available when pushing for next generation limits.
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5150Joker
Supreme [H]ardness
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- Aug 1, 2005
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Bullshit, the Vega FE is not a professional card. It doesn't have certified drivers and additionally it has a gaming mode (which does nothing since it's meaningless) so it should be fully tested for its gaming performance compared to Titan xP and blasted for being far behind. Yet they pussyfooted around the gaming portion of it because the AMD guy was basically staring him down.
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- 9,100
If that is true, we will know in about 30 days?