Valve throws it's weight behind Vulkan.

noko said:
Well are Linux users really willing to pay for software similar to Window users? I really don't think so. So if I was a developer, do I sell the Linux version cheaper to get the Linux user willing to buy it knowing he/she can get it cheaper then anyone else? Isn't one of the Motto's in Linux that software should be free :D. Developers have bills to pay, families to raise, hobbies to have fun in - I doubt many developers will want to spend hours, weeks, months or years on projects to give it away to a person who thinks all software should be free while smoking a joint.

That is why Valve was working on free software but a back door for profits by having content providers/store where people can support (really buy so the developers/producers make some money to pay the bills). This may still work - you buy a steam box, many games are really free. You just have to download them - all or most will have content not only from the developers but also from the users being part of making the game better selling tidbits (many tidbits do add up) where the store takes a percentage of the sells and gives it back to the developers. A very interesting model that could fit well in the Linux universe.
Click to expand...

Wow! Linux users believe software should be free while smoking a joint? What a grand generalization! If we're going to generalize to such extremes I thought joint smoking was the realm of PS4 and Xbox users! The whole idea of Linux is that software should be open, not necessarily free - Android runs the Linux kernel and Android users have no problem paying for apps by the truckload - Hell, your washing machine probably runs the Linux kernel and I bet that wasn't free! In fact Linux is the most widely used Kernel/OS globally, it literally smashes Windows by a country mile as there are far more devices that require the use of an operating system than simply desktop computers alone.

....Only recently I bought MakeMKV as it works so well at doing what I want it to do, so disappointing that I must be outside the realm of a joint smoking parasite!

Once again, this discussion isn't specifically about the merits of Linux as a gaming platform, although there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it wouldn't make a great gaming platform - I'm sure if it was wrapped up in a Playstation 5 people wouldn't bat an eyelid at it's capabilities in regards to rendering and shifting polygons around the screen! This discussion is about Vulkan as a multi platform API, and once again, there is no reason whatsoever why x86 gaming, or any form of electronic gaming for than matter needs to be tied to Microsoft - There are no negatives to more choice, not even for Microsoft users.
 
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Right, and windows users want to pay for everying. Lets not forget, most Windows installations are OEM copies that were bundled with the PC, or else corporate installations, or else pirated copies. I think you're just being delusional because you feel people shouldn't want to use something that's free for any reason other than it being free. I assure you, if it were crap, I wouldn't use it even if someone paid me to...unless they paid me handsomely, and then I'd dual-boot. :p

Like others have said, though, it doesn't matter what OS it's running. It's not targetted at Linux users, and not all Steam Machines run Linux in the first place. Valve is using Linux for it's SteamOS because it feels there's value or potential in it, and that's all. Vulkan can help to make it just as viable as a PS4 or XBone as a gaming platform, and if D3D12 is implemented on Linux (which is possible, btw--D3D10/11 already have a more-or-less working gallium state-tracker), all the more so.
 
atom said:
Yup, they are no longer a game maker, but a publisher and platform.
Click to expand...

I'd lay money they've in fact been working on firstparty titles. Too many little hints have dropped over the past few years, between Valve employees speaking off the record at gaming conventions, the screengrabs of Valve's project tracker that made the rounds, voice actors hinting that they were working on something at Valve, the resumes' of ex-Valve employees, etc.

They don't carpet bomb press releases about games in development like most devs & publishers these days, and I don't think they developed an entirely new generation of Source Engine just to give DOTA 2 an incremental improvement. Consider also their development goalposts have been shifting wildly for a few years: first the switch from Source 1 to Source 2, back-ended to DX11 & OpenGL for Windows & SteamOS respectively; then once Vulkan became a thing, decided to shift to that for all platforms, no more DirectX, and anything DirectX already in the pipeline would be backtracked and migrated to Vulkan. Delays, then more delays.

So no, nothing's guaranteed, but I think we'll see at least one title announced in November (L4D3 best guess). They don't care about the revenue from a single game launched early, as much as they care about delaying to create the killer app(s) that showcase a new engine and new API to help launch a new platform, not unlike Halo for Xbox and HL2 for Steam. My 2c.
 
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Nobu said:
...right. This last humble bundle:
Code: 
Total payments:    $1,229,867.79
Number of purchases:    121,191
Average purchase:    $10.15
Average Windows:    $9.99
Average Mac:    $11.62
Average Linux:    $10.53
And most of those games don't even run on Linux.
This week's Weekly Bundle:
Code: 
Total payments:    $48,710.39
Number of purchases:    9,965
Average purchase:    $4.89
Average Windows:    $4.64
Average Mac:    $5.82
Average Linux:    $5.83

And there have been bundles where Linux users have paid much more than this. I think you need a reality check.
Click to expand...
I see what you did there, and that is an impressive statistic. Now show me another spread like that where it shows-
Number of purchases:
Number of Windows Purchases:
Number of Mac Purchases:
Number of Linux Purchases:

I do find it interesting that they pay on average a dollar more. I wonder if its because they saved money on their OS, tehehe. Or, maybe its because those Humble Bundle games are the best you can get on Linux! Ok, I'm purposefully half trolling here.

DPI said:
I'd lay money they've in fact been working on firstparty titles. Too many little hints have dropped over the past few years, between Valve employees speaking off the record at gaming conventions, the screengrabs of the development tracker at Valve that someone nabbed while on an office tour, voice actors leaking that they were working for Valve on a project, or "secret Valve project" showing up on resumes', etc.

They don't carpet bomb press releases about new games like most devs & publishers these days, and second they've been dealing with multiple moving goalposts (and subsequent delays) over the past few years - first the switch from Source 1 to Source 2, backed to DX11 & OpenGL for Windows & SteamOS respectively, and then once Vulkan became a thing, shifted everything to that for both Windows & SteamOS.

So nothing's guaranteed, but I think we'll see something announced in November, and it's a safe bet that Valve decided any new firstparty title would not release on anything but Source2 and Vulkan. Meaning even if they were close to completion on a DX11 title, they'd rather delay it for another 3 more years just to get it on Vulkan.
Click to expand...
I sure hope you are right DPI. And for the record I think it would be great if Vulkan saw a large amount of usage. I don't really see the Source engine as being relevant anymore, unfortunately. A lot of smaller developers that would never go to consoles might use it if they have a 3d title for the cross platform compatibility. Scaling 3d games from PC to Android is not a likely use for it, however. It will all depend on what the game maker needs I guess. Oh, and their agenda of course as well.
 
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I do find it interesting that they pay on average a dollar more. I wonder if its because they saved money on their OS, tehehe. Or, maybe its because those Humble Bundle games are the best you can get on Linux! Ok, I'm purposefully half trolling here.
Click to expand...

It's not trolling, you make a valid point.

~750,000 Linux users that we know of on Steam, all of them waiting for the day when mainstream titles are released on their platform even remotely like they are released on the Windows platform, buying what they can off Humble Bundle - That sounds like a fairly untapped market to me.
 
atom said:
I see what you did there, and that is an impressive statistic. Now show me another spread like that where it shows-
Number of purchases:
Number of Windows Purchases:
Number of Mac Purchases:
Number of Linux Purchases:
Click to expand...

What I did there was just copy what I could find on the site. Here, since you asked, I'll deliver. Dunno how legit this is, but it seems fairly: http://cheesetalks.net/humble/

And, an explanation of that page, I guess (haven't read it, need to get to bed).

My google-foo is still strong...though I found that using DuckDuckGo. :p
 
Hmm 3.45% of revenue on the current bundle. Not much to claim market share, but 3.45% of a million dollars is worth it to me! Not sure about the big studios who would spend more than that doing a Linux port. Look at all those figures, the Origin Bundle destroys the others for revenue.
 
Yeah...(not so) ironically, the average Linux payments on that one were pretty low, but still $1 more than Windows. Still 1.8% of the purchases were Linux buyers, and their purchases made up 2.18% of the total revenue. Linux users aren't too fond of EA/Origin, for obvious reasons (complete and utter lack of any Linux games). lol
 
atom said:
I don't really see the Source engine as being relevant anymore, unfortunately. A lot of smaller developers that would never go to consoles might use it if they have a 3d title for the cross platform compatibility. Scaling 3d games from PC to Android is not a likely use for it, however. It will all depend on what the game maker needs I guess. Oh, and their agenda of course as well.
Click to expand...

You're right. Even though Source Engine is still considered among 'The Big 5" (along with Frostbite, Cryengine, Unity, Unreal), most conversations about engine usually involve Unreal or Unity. Valve did announce that Source Engine 2 will be free to develop on and royalty-free (the other engines have moved this way similarly). But that alone isn't enough, and all the more reason why I think we'll actually see new Valve titles: they might just realize that it's going to need a killer showcase title or two to pump interest back up, just as firstparty Source 1 games did for that engine. We'll see.
 
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twonunpackmule said:
Valve is probably developing a VR game.
Click to expand...
VR with headcrabs, what could possibly go wrong? Better yet, they could make the headset look like a crab and focus more on their hardware and peripherals.

For the sales and market share debate. Linux is only starting to be a viable gaming platform, PS4 and linux based consoles aside. This argument is like comparing xbox market share against nintendo and playstation prior to it's release.
 
PS4 and Linux based consoles are two separate subjects.
 
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atom said:
Actually PS4 is BSD based not Linux based.
Click to expand...
BSD and Linux are both Unix based and generally compatible with each other. If PS4 supported Vulkan porting between the two would be minimal effort. What's to say you couldn't put a Steam App on PS4 or any other console and install linux games from your library? Same would go for any other consoles that didn't want games to be exclusive. BSD can normally run linux binaries. The only catch is platform owners normally want a cut.
 
Anarchist4000 said:
BSD and Linux are both Unix based and generally compatible with each other. If PS4 supported Vulkan porting between the two would be minimal effort. What's to say you couldn't put a Steam App on PS4 or any other console and install linux games from your library? Same would go for any other consoles that didn't want games to be exclusive. BSD can normally run linux binaries. The only catch is platform owners normally want a cut.
Click to expand...

Yep, Sony isn't interested in another store on their platform, which is fine because simply adding Vulkan support still benefits the wider adoption of the API. It should still interest Sony in the sense it lowers the barrier to getting more games into the PS4's store. Let's say a developer has an existing Windows title that he created on or migrated to Vulkan, but doesn't have the time or resources to learn the PS4's proprietary API - which I've read is a pain. Porting to PS4 would then be trivial

PS4's proprietary API would theoretically be faster than Vulkan by a few frames, but if it comes down to having a game on the platform or not, I imagine Sony being okay with that, especially if the title isn't on Xbox.
 
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One more big sign today why the future belongs to Vulkan after it won Android support from Google last month: Google announced 1.4 Billion Android devices, 1 Billion engaged users (active monthly accounts on Google Play), 1.43 million apps, and 50% YoY growth.

Combine that with ARM processors only continuing to get more powerful, and existing ones already capable of rendering basic 3D games. If you haven't seen Imagination's Gnome demo comparing Vulkan to existing OGL-ES on a $60 Nexus Player, this demo makes it pretty evident why Vulkan is a game changer, and why it's likely to become very attractive to developers in terms of removing or minimizing one of the most time consuming parts of porting and multi-device support. Right now OGL-ES still requires a lot of custom coding for different hardware.

So even if Vulkan never takes off on x86, the mobile potential is staggering, least in terms of making the difference in basic 3D games actually being playable, and saving a ton of battery during gaming sessions because it's way more efficient for the processor.
 
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Nobu said:
...right. This last humble bundle:
Code: 
Total payments:    $1,229,867.79
Number of purchases:    121,191
Average purchase:    $10.15
Average Windows:    $9.99
Average Mac:    $11.62
Average Linux:    $10.53
And most of those games don't even run on Linux.
This week's Weekly Bundle:
Code: 
Total payments:    $48,710.39
Number of purchases:    9,965
Average purchase:    $4.89
Average Windows:    $4.64
Average Mac:    $5.82
Average Linux:    $5.83

And there have been bundles where Linux users have paid much more than this. I think you need a reality check.
Click to expand...
Cool now show me new game purchase numbers with-in the money making cycle of a game ie first 3 months after release per platform. Where the vast majority of the money from a game is made, you know when it's full price, outside of a few exceptional games where they pull in sales for a full year or more.
 
Semantics said:
Cool now show me new game purchase numbers with-in the money making cycle of a game ie first 3 months after release per platform. Where the vast majority of the money from a game is made, you know when it's full price, outside of a few exceptional games where they pull in sales for a full year or more.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed the point of his facts, which was to refute the idea that Linux users are a bunch of cheapo tightwads that don't spend money for software.
 
jwcalla said:
Perhaps you missed the point of his facts, which was to refute the idea that Linux users are a bunch of cheapo tightwads that don't spend money for software.
Click to expand...

What an absolute load of crap.

Why are people so dead against freedom of choice? I run both platforms, although I only use Windows for gaming and if it's a game I can run natively under Linux I run it under Linux. I do not for a second feel the need to be so dead against anyone wanting to run anything but Microsoft software?!
 
flu!d said:
Wow! Linux users believe software should be free while smoking a joint? What a grand generalization! If we're going to generalize to such extremes I thought joint smoking was the realm of PS4 and Xbox users! The whole idea of Linux is that software should be open, not necessarily free - Android runs the Linux kernel and Android users have no problem paying for apps by the truckload - Hell, your washing machine probably runs the Linux kernel and I bet that wasn't free! In fact Linux is the most widely used Kernel/OS globally, it literally smashes Windows by a country mile as there are far more devices that require the use of an operating system than simply desktop computers alone.

....Only recently I bought MakeMKV as it works so well at doing what I want it to do, so disappointing that I must be outside the realm of a joint smoking parasite!

Once again, this discussion isn't specifically about the merits of Linux as a gaming platform, although there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it wouldn't make a great gaming platform - I'm sure if it was wrapped up in a Playstation 5 people wouldn't bat an eyelid at it's capabilities in regards to rendering and shifting polygons around the screen! This discussion is about Vulkan as a multi platform API, and once again, there is no reason whatsoever why x86 gaming, or any form of electronic gaming for than matter needs to be tied to Microsoft - There are no negatives to more choice, not even for Microsoft users.
Click to expand...

Touchy I see. Yes Linux users expect free software much more so I say then Window users. Android has nothing to do with Steambox as far as I can tell. In other words software not open to scrutiny, ability to change, open source code etc. in Linux will get flak. In other words developers will be prompted to share their source code so that the user (which virtually all would not have the technical ability to do anything with) can control the program. Forget ownership for the developer or the freedom of the developer to restrict access to his/her work where he/she see's fit. I wonder how GameWorks would fit into the Linux World? It wouldn't. Game engines?

Does Linux have a platform that is profitable for high dollar investments in order to make money with games? Maybe which I see Valve is exploring.
 
noko said:
Touchy I see. Yes Linux users expect free software much more so I say then Window users. Android has nothing to do with Steambox as far as I can tell. In other words software not open to scrutiny, ability to change, open source code etc. in Linux will get flak. In other words developers will be prompted to share their source code so that the user (which virtually all would not have the technical ability to do anything with) can control the program. Forget ownership for the developer or the freedom of the developer to restrict access to his/her work where he/she see's fit. I wonder how GameWorks would fit into the Linux World? It wouldn't. Game engines?

Does Linux have a platform that is profitable for high dollar investments in order to make money with games? Maybe which I see Valve is exploring.
Click to expand...

Prove to me how you reached the generalization that Linux users simply expect everything to be free? More to the point, prove to me how Windows users running the most pirated OS and applications in the world are fully prepared to happily part with their money at every turn?

I don't want statics off the steam store or humble bundle, I want hard evidence proving your generalisations beyond all doubt. Because as stated, if we're generalising like that than all xbox and PS4 users are stoners.

Modification to the OS and Kernal are open to scrutiny, but as can be seen with Nvidia drivers, not all software under the Linux platform has to be fully open source. I see no reason why any game engine would be open to exploitation on the Linux platform any more than it would be on the Windows platform.

I'm not being touchy, I'm pushing you, and I'm gonna keep pushing you because your outlook is laughable.
 
noko said:
Forget ownership for the developer or the freedom of the developer to restrict access to his/her work where he/she see's fit. I wonder how GameWorks would fit into the Linux World? It wouldn't. Game engines?

Does Linux have a platform that is profitable for high dollar investments in order to make money with games? Maybe which I see Valve is exploring.
Click to expand...

Opensource/FOSS isn't a requirement for Linux software, you knew that. So something like the GameWorks API would simply be closed-source, just like it is on Windows, just like Nvidia and AMD's Vulkan drivers on Linux will be closed source (AMD at least claims opensource "later" but who knows).

If a gaming revolution is to happen on Linux, it's not going to be through a pure opensource chain, and purists that get bent out of shape things like dGPU vendors not opening their drivers are overlooking a mile to fixate on an inch in terms of platform growth potential.
 
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Android has nothing to do with Steambox as far as I can tell. In other words software not open to scrutiny, ability to change, open source code etc. in Linux will get flak.
Click to expand...

I'm still trying to work out this quote. If you're trying to imply that Android is not in some way open source and therefore cannot be based on Linux you are, of course, completely wrong. Take a look at the Android AOSP link below:

https://source.android.com/

This is the reason why Android devices can be rooted and custom roms can be installed.

In relation to your comments regarding Steambox, I thought it was well known that Android has nothing to do with Steambox, when did anyone claim otherwise?
 
jwcalla said:
Perhaps you missed the point of his facts, which was to refute the idea that Linux users are a bunch of cheapo tightwads that don't spend money for software.
Click to expand...

That didn't refute that. What it refutes is that among those who buy games from humble bundle, Linux users spend more on a given purchase. We have no idea how many people made purchases on each platform.

I assume that the vast majority of purchases were made by Windows users (just a matter of market share). 10 Linux users might have bought games but they paid more, on average, than other buyers. Hopefully that's not true, but I can't conclude anything from that blog's data on the general Linux gaming population's willingness to pay for software. Technically you can't draw many useful conclusions about Mac or Windows users either
 
Anarchist4000 said:
BSD and Linux are both Unix based and generally compatible with each other. If PS4 supported Vulkan porting between the two would be minimal effort. What's to say you couldn't put a Steam App on PS4 or any other console and install linux games from your library? Same would go for any other consoles that didn't want games to be exclusive. BSD can normally run linux binaries. The only catch is platform owners normally want a cut.
Click to expand...

No, I see what you are thinking but it is very incorrect. Even if the Kernel was the same, which it is not, the OS has a set of library's that apps need to call upon to operate. Even something as simple as getting the input from a keyboard can be different. Android actually runs on a modified Linux Kernel but definitely can not run Linux apps. FreeBSD runs an entirely different Kernel all together. We are getting off topic now, however.

I see the potential for greater performance on Android systems. Android is held back by the fact that nearly everything is ran in a Virtual Machine and CPU performance suffers. It is why the hardware of the platform can be so flexible.
 
The linux crowd...smaller than the mac-crowd...but just as vocal.

I have been hearing linux-users proclaim that soon their platform will best the windows platform for +15 years.
It's getting boring.

The problem isn't so much the OS...it's the userbase...see you for same tune in 10 years?
 
nilepez said:
That didn't refute that. What it refutes is that among those who buy games from humble bundle, Linux users spend more on a given purchase. We have no idea how many people made purchases on each platform.

I assume that the vast majority of purchases were made by Windows users (just a matter of market share). 10 Linux users might have bought games but they paid more, on average, than other buyers. Hopefully that's not true, but I can't conclude anything from that blog's data on the general Linux gaming population's willingness to pay for software. Technically you can't draw many useful conclusions about Mac or Windows users either
Click to expand...

That's not how averages work--not when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people, and millions of dollars. Take the "All Results Combined" charts. $8,611,634.81 total, Linux Average $9.25, 930,755 Linux purchases. Assuming 900,000 Linux users paid $5, that'd be $3,600,000, leaving $5,111,634.81. That'd mean the remaining 30,755 Linux purchases would need to be more than $166 on average. That number would only go up as you had more people paying less. Yes, there have been a few large payments, in the $1000 and $5000 range, but that's only 6% of the total Linux payments, and 10% of $5,111,634.81, and I don't even know if those were counted towards Linux payments.
 
Factum said:
The linux crowd...smaller than the mac-crowd...but just as vocal.

I have been hearing linux-users proclaim that soon their platform will best the windows platform for +15 years.
It's getting boring.

The problem isn't so much the OS...it's the userbase...see you for same tune in 10 years?
Click to expand...

And the userbase exists due solely to the fact that Windows is pre installed on virtually every brand name boxed PC sold. Besides, I don't want Linux to replace Windows, as I've stated time and time again in this thread I make a living repairing the numerous issues surrounding infected Windows machines with registry issues, if everyone switched to Linux I'd have to get a second job! I just want to get rid of my Windows gaming machine and free up desk space.

I'd get rid of the Linux box, but it's the little things I can do under Linux that I can't do under Windows that make life so much easier, and I don't have the infection issues nor do I need to reboot to apply updates or have my boot process cycle five times while updates are applied.
 
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flu!d said:
And the userbase exists due solely to the fact that Windows is pre installed on virtually every brand name boxed PC sold. Besides, I don't want Linux to replace Windows, as I've stated time and time again in this thread I make a living repairing the numerous issues surrounding infected Windows machines with registry issues, if everyone switched to Linux I'd have to get a second job! I just want to get rid of my Windows gaming machine and free up desk space.

I'd get rid of the Linux box, but it's the little things I can do under Linux that I can't do under Windows that make life so much easier, and I don't have the infection issues nor do I need to reboot to apply updates or have my boot process cycle five times while updates are applied.
Click to expand...

The last time I had a virus was back on a floppy for my Amiga.
I seldom reboot, even for updates...the world has moved on since Windows 95 FYI.

But enlighten me...please specify what this parts entails:
"but it's the little things I can do under Linux that I can't do under Windows that make life so much easie"

What little things?
 
Factum said:
The linux crowd...smaller than the mac-crowd...but just as vocal.

I have been hearing linux-users proclaim that soon their platform will best the windows platform for +15 years.
It's getting boring.

The problem isn't so much the OS...it's the userbase...see you for same tune in 10 years?
Click to expand...

Well if you put it that way both are unix based. Most things on Linux requires you to sometimes do more then google and exercise your "brain" that of course is nothing to brag about but the days of people being spoon fed the idea that an operating system takes care of itself are over.

As a Linux user I can safely say that past decade Linux has been way better then windows. That you and other don't see this or have problems with it does not make it my problem.

What amazes me that you spout this nonsense about Linux in this thread that is about Vulkan , which is platform independent.
 
Factum said:
But enlighten me...please specify what this parts entails:
"but it's the little things I can do under Linux that I can't do under Windows that make life so much easie"

What little things?
Click to expand...

the gnu standard utilities, the concept of standard in and standard out, file system choice (not so little I guess), screen recording built into my window manager (gnome), compilers built in, a proper terminal, and the repos. That's what comes to mind for me.
 
Nobu said:
That's not how averages work--not when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people, and millions of dollars. Take the "All Results Combined" charts. $8,611,634.81 total, Linux Average $9.25, 930,755 Linux purchases. Assuming 900,000 Linux users paid $5, that'd be $3,600,000, leaving $5,111,634.81. That'd mean the remaining 30,755 Linux purchases would need to be more than $166 on average. That number would only go up as you had more people paying less. Yes, there have been a few large payments, in the $1000 and $5000 range, but that's only 6% of the total Linux payments, and 10% of $5,111,634.81, and I don't even know if those were counted towards Linux payments.
Click to expand...

Did I miss where they gave the number of purchases per platform? I didn't see that. I just saw the total number of purchases and a break out of the average on each platform.
 
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