Valve Software's Source Engine Multi-Threaded Preview

[FrgMstr]

Valve Software's Source Engine Multi-Threaded Preview - We now have multi-core processors in the marketplace, but where does this leave the gamer? Valve Software, of Half-Life and Half-Life 2 fame, sits down with us to prove they are making huge headway in multi-core gaming.

With that said, our day at Valve’s headquarters was a great re-enforcement of the conclusions we made in our quad-core QX6700 article last week. To put it simply, multi-core processors and threaded software are here to stay, and both are the future of the computer industry. It’s up to the software developers, and now particularly game developers, to make the investment by developing truly multi-threaded software.


Valve is pushing the envelope when it comes to multi-threaded gaming for the masses. Undoubtedly Valve Software is now at the pinnacle of the 3D gaming industry both in terms of content and the technology serving it up.

 

[mentok1982]

This is sounding really good. I can't wait to try out Episode 2, Portal and Team Fortress on
my future quad core rig.

Horray for Valve! Hooray for mult-threaded games!

It seems like Intel's quad core CPUs will be the ones I will choose from because those are
the CPUs that the Valve will be using to make the games. Now I just have to figure out who to
buy my graphics cards from...

 

[SuperGee]

Well very interresting a dev makes it's threading support solution public.
Wonder what solution Q4 (IDSoft & iNtel) implemented.
What Epic Unreal3 will be using.
Cry engine.
etc.

Hybrid threading sound innovative. But the other solution are a bit of unkown.

But I remeber Q4 scales good with the second core.
But not on the Dual HT 840EE Could be a HT thing. or they used 2 fix threads for the rendering task.

So I wonder.

 

[MH Knights]

It’s up to the software developers, and now particularly game developers, to make the investment by developing truly multi-threaded software.

And there is the rub. Will developers play the "chick or the egg" scenario saying that no one owns quad cores so it isn't worth devolping for them? I can see the future advantages of a quad core but there is no way I can afford $999 USD for one right now. I will be waiting until they get to be $200 to $250. You could say that I am a budget enthusiast.

We are just now seeing true DX9 games (built from the ground up for DX9) and there are only a few games that support dual cores. Hell, there are games that don't work right with dual cores.

Will you be able to tell a game that you only want to use three of the four availiable cores? Say you wanted to run another program in the background but didn't want any conflicts between it and the game.

Heres to the future

 

[Lyquist]

This is a most awesome development. It may make me play games again.

 

[HighwayAssassins]

This slide makes me sad for all of us who just upgraded to X2's recently.

I wish It had some single core benchies on this graph, you are really only getting half the picture.

 

[Shark]

Page 3, 2nd word is misspelled.

Also, first site with benchmarks on this visit to valve, very nice.

 

[DemonDiablo]

Will you be able to tell a game that you only want to use three of the four availiable cores? Say you wanted to run another program in the background but didn't want any conflicts between it and the game.

This is the big kicker for me. One of the huge advantages of multi-core procs today is that you can play killer apps with little performance hit incomparision to a single core proc. But with the multi-core proc you can also encode a movie/song without noticing a huge loss in smoothness while playing games.

Multi-threaded games sounds like a good idea so long as I have the ability to dictate how many cores I want to allocate to the game and or how much cpu % for each core. If I cant have that ability then Im not going to be much of a happy camper. Sacrificing productivity for a few extra fps and some new sparkly objects doesnt sound like all that great of a tradeoff to me.

 

[Shark]

This is the big kicker for me. One of the huge advantages of multi-core procs today is that you can play killer apps with little performance hit incomparision to a single core proc. But with the multi-core proc you can also encode a movie/song without noticing a huge loss in smoothness while playing games.

Multi-threaded games sounds like a good idea so long as I have the ability to dictate how many cores I want to allocate to the game and or how much cpu % for each core. If I cant have that ability then Im not going to be much of a happy camper. Sacrificing productivity for a few extra fps and some new sparkly objects doesnt sound like all that great of a tradeoff to me.

I think you might be alone in the "encode a movie while playing games" department.

 

[MrGuvernment]

I think you might be alone in the "encode a movie while playing games" department.

No not really, considering how many people only own 1 computer, and it can take from 1-20+ hours to encode a movie pending on how you do it.... and with a single processor, you might aswell forget about using your computer while doing it.


Anyways, who ever took the pics, needs to learn how to use their camera better.

 

[jebo_4jc]

This slide makes me sad for all of us who just upgraded to X2's recently.

I wish It had some single core benchies on this graph, you are really only getting half the picture.

"Half" the picture. Nice


In reality, though, this is all pure marketing until we see game benchmarks.

 

[Shark]

No not really, considering how many people only own 1 computer, and it can take from 1-20+ hours to encode a movie pending on how you do it.... and with a single processor, you might aswell forget about using your computer while doing it.
....

I encoded a movie, on one processor, in 2.25 hours just last night. You have to be doing something horribly wrong for it to take 20+

 

[Mav451]

I encoded a movie, on one processor, in 2.25 hours just last night. You have to be doing something horribly wrong for it to take 20+

Probably was a hyperbole there, that's all.

But this certainly makes me stay away from the X2s. Looks like I'm jumping totally to either Core2 (with the E4300), or a K8L-something. Looks like I'm back at to "AthlonXP" status now. Such are the times, lol.

 

[TheBluePill]

I like the Idea of having a Dedicated Game server on one Core, while playing it with the Other. Will this be implemented for CSS Soon?

 

[HighwayAssassins]

"Half" the picture. Nice

Half the picture as in there needs to be single cores listed for baseline.

What if an Athlon 64 single core @ 2.6 w/ 1mb cache scores a 35? What if it scores a 15? One would suggest that only quad core makes a real difference. The other would suggest that even dual core makes a hell of a difference. It matters.

All im saying is that if we are expected to take those numbers as statistically significant, we also need a baseline score, a single core. Without it, you are only getting half the picture because you cant review a multicore CPU and never compare it to a single.

 

[RedStarSQD]

this is sooo exciting i just have to aknowledge the effort in some way...

*jumps up and down really, really fast*

!!

 

[RADON]

I encoded a movie, on one processor, in 2.25 hours just last night. You have to be doing something horribly wrong for it to take 20+

Try encoding a DVD to H.264 in 2.25 hours.

 

[J-Mag]

This slide makes me sad for all of us who just upgraded to X2's recently.

Why? That graph is no way indicative of what your gaming performance will be like when valve patches up the engine. Anyway didn't they mention that new game play features won't even be implimented until after episode 2?

 

[DemonDiablo]

I think you might be alone in the "encode a movie while playing games" department.

LOL I guess you've never encoded a movie on a single core/P4 HT pc before huh? I assure you once you start an encode on a single core pc that pc isnt doing awhole lot else for the next 2 hrs min (my encodes last a lot longer on a single core pc more like 5 hrs if thats all I have runnings. Just to give you an idea.)

 

[HighwayAssassins]

Why? That graph is no way indicative of what your gaming performance will be like when valve patches up the engine.

definatly a good point. And GPU will probably still be more important when playing games anyways, but nobody likes to see thier brand new hardware off scale on the low end

 

[DragonNOA1]

In reality, though, this is all pure marketing until we see game benchmarks.

No kidding. They only benched the apps they use in house to make the games, not the games themselves in real world tests.

 

[Shark]

LOL I guess you've never encoded a movie on a single core/P4 HT pc before huh? I assure you once you start an encode on a single core pc that pc isnt doing awhole lot else for the next 2 hrs min (my encodes last a lot longer on a single core pc more like 5 hrs if thats all I have runnings. Just to give you an idea.)

Not true, you can do so much more while encoding. Why in fact, you already told me you play games while encoding.

 

[THRESHIN]

its this kind of stuff that makes me love valve. not only are they pushing ahead with multi-threading but they're also bringing it the older already released titles in a patch. they really know how to cater to the gamers and hardware junkies

 

[J-Mag]

definatly a good point. And GPU will probably still be more important when playing games anyways, but nobody likes to see thier brand new hardware off scale on the low end

I think you have nothing to worry about. Most people see multithreaded programing as something that will increase performance in games, which really is not the case beyond a few percent. Valve realizes this and is using extra cores for features, not speed. Hopefully we will be able to adjust level of interactivity with in-game settings depending on the cpu we have, just as we adjust level of detail according to our GPU power.

 

[DemonDiablo]

Not true, you can do so much more while encoding. Why in fact, you already told me you play games while encoding.

Feel free to omitt the part where I say on a single core. Oh wait you already did.

Seriously though. I said encoding a movie while playing a game in reference to dual core cpus' (I think that was clearly understood). While my second statement was in reference to a single core cpu or a P4 with HT technology.

If you ever tried to encode a movie on a single core cpu while trying to do so much as move the mouse you'd know exactly what I was talking about. Hell moving the mouse pretty much tacks on an extra 2 or so minutes to your encode time. When I say you dont do much of anything else on a single core pc while its encoding I really mean, you get up, walk away, and find something better to do for the next few hours (aka go to sleep, go to the bar, etc.)

 

[Brent_Justice]

It is about getting the most for your money. If you purchase a dual or quad core CPU I sure as heck want all 2 or 4 cores working in my games to better my experience rather than just 1 core and have the others idle in my game.

Kudos to Valve for stepping up to the plate and providing this support ACROSS THE BOARD with their CURRENT titles, just wow. I'd like to see more game developers take this stance and assure us that future titles will take advantage of multi-core CPUs. It definitely puts some competition out there for furthering gameplay physics.

2007 is going to be a very exciting year from GPUs to CPUs which should translate to better gameplay if they are taken advantage of.

 

[HighwayAssassins]

Kudos to Valve for stepping up to the plate and providing this support ACROSS THE BOARD with their CURRENT titles, just wow. I'd like to see more game developers take this stance and assure us that future titles will take advantage of multi-core CPUs. It definitely puts some competition out there for furthering gameplay physics.

Yea, its real fuckin cool that even HL2 will get a patch to support dual core. I wish they could go back and put HDR into that shit too; that would be neat.

 

[Paul_Jastrzebski]

Hey guys, great discussion about the article. I wanted to chime in a bit about the benchmarks... I had the rigs from the quad-core set up and ready when I got back from Valve, so I just loaded the benchmarks and ran them. Using a single-core CPU as a baseline score would be a great idea, particularily for the particle simulation benchmark because it simulates real-world Source Engine game play. I've already dismantled the rigs and sent the quad-core hardware back as well as the motherboards we used to test them with, but I'll try to get a similar rig set up testing with a 3.8GHz P4 and see what we come up with. I'll post back with the results.

Like we noted in the article, the benchmarks we used in the article are tests that Valve themselves wrote up for their own purposes.. to test how multi-threading the Source Engine will help increase performance in their games. Although we can imply increased performance with hybrid threading in Source from our tests, we can't make any final judgments until they release their threaded patch on steam.

 

[tvdang7]

so um.... when do the cheap quad cores come?

 

[HighwayAssassins]

Hey guys, great discussion about the article. I wanted to chime in a bit about the benchmarks... I had the rigs from the quad-core set up and ready when I got back from Valve, so I just loaded the benchmarks and ran them. Using a single-core CPU as a baseline score would be a great idea, particularily for the particle simulation benchmark because it simulates real-world Source Engine game play. I've already dismantled the rigs and sent the quad-core hardware back as well as the motherboards we used to test them with, but I'll try to get a similar rig set up testing with a 3.8GHz P4 and see what we come up with. I'll post back with the results.

That would be excelent!

 

[Advil]

Perhaps I missed it in the article... was there any indication of when the multi-thread code patch would be released?

 

[DemonDiablo]

Perhaps I missed it in the article... was there any indication of when the multi-thread code patch would be released?

Before HL: EP2

 

[Skirrow]

It is about getting the most for your money. If you purchase a dual or quad core CPU I sure as heck want all 2 or 4 cores working in my games to better my experience rather than just 1 core and have the others idle in my game.

Kudos to Valve for stepping up to the plate and providing this support ACROSS THE BOARD with their CURRENT titles, just wow. I'd like to see more game developers take this stance and assure us that future titles will take advantage of multi-core CPUs. It definitely puts some competition out there for furthering gameplay physics.

2007 is going to be a very exciting year from GPUs to CPUs which should translate to better gameplay if they are taken advantage of.

That is soooooo true. I got my X2 4800+ last year when the dual-core thing was at its peak. Developers were just bringing out games that used multi-threading and the future looked bright. But the multi-threading most developers tried did bugger all. It was like they substituted 100% on one core, for 50% each on 2 cores. Even the Quake 4 multi-thread patch did nothing for me. Performance was exactly the same. Its great to see a developer FINALLY pulling there fingers out and actually doing something properly for once.

The whole argument of 'Multi-threading is extremely difficult to implement blah blah blah' is wearing thin now. Multi-threading is nothing new. Hasnt been for years. Christ even the Sega Saturn was multi-threaded. It was just pure greed on the part of share holders that slowed down the multi-threaded game. It takes less time and costs less money to make a game for a single core cpu. So why spend all that time and money on multi-threading?.

Well they do say that nothing worth doing is ever easy.

 

[Opajew]

all hail Valve! i can't wait to see what games will be like with multi-threading.

 

[Brent_Justice]

One thing that is also pushing multi-threading ahead now is today's consoles, now developers have to think about multi-threading on both fronts, consoles and PC. Having the consoles go multi-threaded has helped boost support on the PC front.

 

[DemonDiablo]

The whole argument of 'Multi-threading is extremely difficult to implement blah blah blah' is wearing thin now. Multi-threading is nothing new. Hasnt been for years. Christ even the Sega Saturn was multi-threaded. It was just pure greed on the part of share holders that slowed down the multi-threaded game. It takes less time and costs less money to make a game for a single core cpu. So why spend all that time and money on multi-threading?.

While I do agree with most of your post you do have to understand that one of the major reasons for why the industry has not created to many multi-threaded apps is because the hardware wasnt in place to take advantage of it. At best half of the gamers out there are using multi-core pc's. Would you spend millions of dollars in development for a product that only a handful of people would be able to use and even fewer would buy? Probably not.

As with all new technology you need someone brave enough to pioneer the new field of technology and then you need a new killer app to market that new technology with. Thats just they way its been in the past, present, and it will continue on into the future.

 

[stelleg151]

At best half of the gamers out there are using multi-core pc's.

10% at best I say. Kudos to Valve for looking out for us hardware geeks.

 

[Opajew]

10% at best I say. Kudos to Valve for looking out for us hardware geeks.

no kidding, before reading this article, i wouldn't have thought about getting a multi-core computer, because none of the games i play (nor forsaw coming), use multi-cores. now that valve's newer source engine will take use of it, i wanna get one now.

 

[HighwayAssassins]

no kidding, before reading this article, i wouldn't have thought about getting a multi-core computer, because none of the games i play (nor forsaw coming), use multi-cores. now that valve's newer source engine will take use of it, i wanna get one now.

It was only a matter of time. Now that the prices have dropped, and you almost cant get a single core CPU these days (I saw an X2 3800+ for less than $90 the other day!) game developers will have no choice but to implement multicore solutions into the engines they use. I expect it to rise exponentially from here on out till every game is multithreaded.

 

[qdemn7]

No not really, considering how many people only own 1 computer, and it can take from 1-20+ hours to encode a movie pending on how you do it.... and with a single processor, you might aswell forget about using your computer while doing it..

This is a serious question, not a flame. What's the big deal about encoding movies anyway?