Using Windows 8 - grr

[daglesj]

Too late compared to an iPad? Again, an iPad is NOT a PC. Windows 8 x86 tablets are the thinnest, lightest, best built and most battery efficient PCs ever built. In the their hybrid form we're looking at some incredible runtimes. The HP Envy x2 has two batteries, one in the dock and one in the screen, weighs 3.1lbs total and should get somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 hours of battery life if the rumors are true.

Intel is going to be demoing some Clover Trail devices this Thursday so we should get a better idea of what these devices can do but regardless of the iPad and Android tablets, we're still looking at some very compelling full desktop OS PCs that are much better in a number of areas than anything anyone has today.

Oh dear. I know that. You know that.

But Joe public sees...a tablet. A more expensive one at that. And it has Windows on it? "But my $300 dollar laptop has that on it! Why does that cost $800?? It's not an iPad? My son told me Windows 8 is awful? Do I need this? What about that Android is it? Is Android any good? Hello?"

Ask most people to name a tablet or what they think is a tablet and I'll put easy money on what they will say.

Stop thinking about easy market acceptance and need from just the folks on this forums point of view.

Its Joe Average that needs to be convinced he needs one. MS finds it very hard to convince anyone they need their stuff these days in the consumer arena. Baffling as that may be, but when the mass and tech media is firmly in one tech firms pocket....

It will be an almighty uphill struggle.

We'll see how far round the block the queues are on launch day.

 

[wonderfield]

But I stand by my Windows x86 tablet fear of too late and too expensive.

They've been available for a decade or so. A fact the people who disagree with you on this subject would rather everyone forget. Sweep it under the rug, so to speak.

 

[heatlesssun]

That $300 laptop has crappy battery life, is heavy and has a crappy screen. Can you detach the screen from the keyboard section of that $300 laptop? Does that $300 laptop have a touch screen? Can you write on the screen of that $300 laptop with a pen? Does that $300 laptop have 10 hours of battery life?

That $300 laptop is simply crap compared to the capability and quality of Windows 8 x86 hybrid hardware hardware and that hardware is going to look a lot more like a laptop than an iPad.

 

[heatlesssun]

They've been available for a decade or so. A fact the people who disagree with you on this subject would rather everyone forget. Sweep it under the rug, so to speak.

Windows has been on tablets for two decades actually. But comparing Windows XP Tablet PC Edition on the hardware that it came on in 2002 to Windows 8 to the hardware its going to come on in 2012 is meaningless. Windows 8 is far superior to even Windows 7 on touch devices let alone Windows XP. And 2012 Windows 8 tablet hardware is practically science fiction compared to Windows XP Tablet PC 2002 hardware.

 

[daglesj]

That $300 laptop has crappy battery life, is heavy and has a crappy screen. Can you detach the screen from the keyboard section of that $300 laptop? Does that $300 laptop have a touch screen? Can you write on the screen of that $300 laptop with a pen? Does that $300 laptop have 10 hours of battery life?

That $300 laptop is simply crap compared to the capability and quality of Windows 8 x86 hybrid hardware hardware and that hardware is going to look a lot more like a laptop than an iPad.

Once again we know that, but Joe public has no idea on crappy res tn screens etc.

If they wanted to spend $800 on their laptop they would have. But most people don't.

Oh and you know what, in all my years in IT no one has asked me if they can write on their screen. It's like I bet no one has walked into a Mercedes dealer and asked if the S class can go in rivers and float. A nice to have I'm sure.

I get to see a lot of the current cheap laptops and to be honest most of them are perfectly okay for the three years or so they will last. You get a lot for a little these days. They are far from unusable.

Here in the UK most people I deal with £400 is the magic limit. Very few want to cross that for the email/ebay regime. I don't blame them.

Just going on and on with this "but it's fabulous hardware, it's fabulous hardware!" mantra isn't going to change the general publics feeling towards it.

As a mainly MS tech person I would love nothing more for it to sell like hot cakes, my livelihood depends on it but I know I'm not going to be able to convince many of my customers (mainly middleclass folks and small business people) that a expensive tablet with a floppy vinyl keyboard is the way to go.

But you never know. It could all work out. I just want 8 to get properly released so I can upgrade my two 8 beta machines to the full deal.

 

[E^vol]

heatlesssun, as I've said in other threads, I'm anxiously waiting for the Surface to be released because we know that it has a lot going for it, design wise...

However, as daglesj said, Joe Public really doesn't know what any of those features mean. All they see is that it looks like an iPad, but it's not an iPad. I was talking about Surface with some guys at work and they had no idea what I was talking about. Some of them do know a bit about hardware and they still didn't get it.

We take our knowledge for granted more often than we realize.


As for not liking Windows 8, as the OP said, give it a chance and adapt it to your style. The ONLY time I'm in the "Metro Start Screen" is when I turn on the machine. That's it. All the programs I use are pinned to the taskbar because I hate having icons on the screen.

 

[heatlesssun]

Once again we know that, but Joe public has no idea on crappy res tn screens etc.

You have to be blind as a bat to not immediately see the difference between a TN and an IPS screen.

Just going on and on with this "but it's fabulous hardware, it's fabulous hardware!" mantra isn't going to change the general publics feeling towards it.

But PC OEMs are constantly criticized about their generic designs and poorly built devices while Apple is routinely applauded for it's industrial designs. You can't totally discount quality.

As a mainly MS tech person I would love nothing more for it to sell like hot cakes, my livelihood depends on it but I know I'm not going to be able to convince many of my customers (mainly middleclass folks and small business people) that a expensive tablet with a floppy vinyl keyboard is the way to go.

If you're referring to the cover keyboards of the Surface, how to you know they are vinyl and floppy? And certainly this is vinyl or floppy:

I do undertand that Windows 8 hybrids are priced high compared to cheap PCs and that is a problem. But this completely new hardware and in time I'm certain prices will fall. Look at laptops when they first hit the market, they were WAY more expensive than even these hybrid devices but in time they became more affordable. I'm not saying these devices are for everyone but even at current prices I think these devices have a market, especially for business folks. We'll have to see how Clover Trail SoC performance is on the desktop, but that Envy x2 in the base should get around 18 hours of battery life in 3.1 lbs. If the performance is there that's pretty damned impressive and there will be plenty of people will to pay $800 to $900 for that.

heatlesssun, as I've said in other threads, I'm anxiously waiting for the Surface to be released because we know that it has a lot going for it, design wise...

However, as daglesj said, Joe Public really doesn't know what any of those features mean. All they see is that it looks like an iPad, but it's not an iPad. I was talking about Surface with some guys at work and they had no idea what I was talking about. Some of them do know a bit about hardware and they still didn't get it.

Does that HP Envy x2 in its dock look like an iPad? In looking at all of the Windows 8 tablet devices I know about thus far, it's pretty obvious that they are pushing the hybrid nature of Windows 8, they all either come with or have a keyboard dock. Windows 8 tablets are being pushed it looks as hybrid devices, not pure tablets, it is a new kind of device for the average consumer. I am not saying that this will make Windows 8 tablets successful, I am simply pointing out why they aren't iPads and I don't think that average people won't understand this as well. The idea of a hybrid devices is pretty well understood by consumers.

As for not liking Windows 8, as the OP said, give it a chance and adapt it to your style. The ONLY time I'm in the "Metro Start Screen" is when I turn on the machine. That's it. All the programs I use are pinned to the taskbar because I hate having icons on the screen.

I find it interesting that people will talk about how average people will perceive Windows 8 tablet devices and yet seem to avoid the tablet nature of Windows 8.

 

[daglesj]

It's just not getting through is it. You need to forget seeing the world of IT with YOUR eyes.

We are NOT talking about how YOU feel about IT/Win8/Surface.

Imagine a world of IT through the eyes of Joe Public. They don't give a damn.

The trained mass media doesn't give a damn about MS products now either. They will give Surface a begrudgingly 'meh' review tucked away on Page 12 and that will be it. We saw it the other week with the lumias. They got a couple of columns then nothing the next day. It was all Apple,iPhone,Apple.

My whole point isn't about the good or bad points of Surface/x86 tablets, it's about the general publics perception and value perception of them. I feel it will be pretty low. I can quite well imagine sales guys in the stores telling Mr and Mrs Average all about the Surface but as all their friends and family have ipads chances are the tech itself, no matter how superior it is, won't matter as they don't have a clue anyway.

I mean if TN panels were that bad folks would buy IPS ones wouldn't they? Well reality is quite different because 99% of human beings don't even know what TN or IPS mean. Pixel pitch? Viewing angles? RGB? Blank looks more like.

I can offer £400 IPS monitors to my customers all day long but as they are not pro photographers they will demand £100 TNs instead.

I deal with these kinds of people every day. You can try to tell them, educate them but their eyes glaze over and they just hand me the money.

Bottom line...they don't care as long as they think it's shiny and all their friends have one.

How you and I feel really doesn't matter.

 

[heatlesssun]

Imagine a world of IT through the eyes of Joe Public. They don't give a damn.

The trained mass media doesn't give a damn about MS products now either. They will give Surface a begrudgingly 'meh' review tucked away on Page 12 and that will be it. We saw it the other week with the lumias. They got a couple of columns then nothing the next day. It was all Apple,iPhone,Apple.

It's not that you're looking at it through Joe Public's eyes, you're simply saying that the only people want is cheap PCs. I'm not saying that price is a very important, perhaps even the most important concern for most buyers, but the PC market is pretty big, not everyone is looking for the cheapest thing, especially if the cheapest thing doesn't serve the need. As for how popular Surface will be or that no one cares about Microsoft products, sure, Apple has the has the lions share of the puplics attention. That said, should Microsoft just not try to do new things and just have OEMs push cheap plastic junk? You're only offering one view of PCs, cheap junk. If that's all that PCs are about then they will fade from existence as better things come along.

I mean if TN panels were that bad folks would buy IPS ones wouldn't they? Well reality is quite different because 99% of human beings don't even know what TN or IPS mean. Pixel pitch? Viewing angles? RGB? Blank looks more like.

Again, the average person doesn't have to know about all these technical specs, all they have to do is see a TN panel next to an IPS panel and there'll be no question which one they'd rather have if price isn't a question. You act as though average people can't even see with their own eyes.

I deal with these kinds of people every day. You can try to tell them, educate them but their eyes glaze over and they just hand me the money.

Bottom line...they don't care as long as they think it's shiny and all their friends have one.

How you and I feel really doesn't matter.

Windows 8 tablets are as new and shiny as it gets and there's going to be plenty of people with Windows 8 devices of some kind.

 

[daglesj]

Okay I give up.

 

[aphasia]

Okay I give up.

lol.
well said & seriously this really made me laugh.
i feel your pain brother.

 

[heatlesssun]

Okay I give up.

I'm not claiming that Windows 8 tablets will be successful, you assert to have the pulse of Joe Public when it comes to Windows 8 and iPads and tablets and I allege no such grand insight into what millions of people will think about something few of those people have ever seen.

I was only pointing out what could be appealing about Windows 8 hybrids and tablets. They are new and shiny and thin and light and the Clover Trail based Windows 8 devices will have incredible battery life for x86 machines.

Maybe you're right and none of this matters and all Joe Public cares about are iPads and they don't care about Microsoft's technology and just want cheap and crappy laptops. If you're correct then I would think the conclusion is that the PC is all but dead.

 

[E^vol]

Joe Public = Dumb fucks...Simple as that...Really!!!

So many people ask me how to update their apps on their phones because they don't know how, or even that there are updates.

They ask me to come over and update their drivers because they don't know how, and only know that drivers can be updated because I asked them if they had done it themselves.

I believe the only reason Android phones have any market share is because Joe Public heard it's from Google, which is a name they know. There's a local radio station with a host talking about her Blackberry and that she might get an iPhone because of the hype...I keep yelling at the radio "Android or WinPhone bitch" and she just got her new iPhone 5 and now all she talks about is how she misses her stupid Crackberry. Joe Public is STUPID !!! They don't know how to connect a printer FFS. Hell, you have no idea how many people I told that you have to CLOSE iPhone/iPad/iPod apps. They just don't get it..

All Joe Public understands is price and hyped up name brands....


/rant - sorry

 

[Tsumi]

But where there's a market, and there's the potential to make money off of that market, it doesn't make sense to ignore it.

Joe Public can also go like this: Techy Tim brings shiny electronics home, shows off to his Joe Public friends and family, and they go "Ohhh, cool, I want it too." Then his Joe Public friends and family go out and get one for themselves, because that's what they were exposed to and know. They then go and spread the word about how good their new toy is.

 

[D4rkn3ss]

Joe won lol, want proof? go play skyrim oh, and hes also into "overclock" (i could put a trained monkey on hwbot these days..) and "watercooling" (like these freaking 22/32nm cpus need that lol)

 

[D4rkn3ss]

Joe won lol, want proof? go play skyrim oh, and hes also into "overclock" (i could put a trained monkey on hwbot these days..) and "watercooling" (like these freaking 22/32nm cpus need that lol)

well just to add.. thats a personal opinion, the point is that the fun days are gone, not complaining about these days hardware though

 

[MrCrispy]

Cloverfield tablets won't matter much if they are priced at $800+ as has been suggested. 99% of people will buy an Android tablet or iPad for half that money and have access to a ton more apps and be just as productive.

MS is betting their future on a world of tablets and making everyone else suffer a hard to use desktop OS experience, while their hardware partner Intel won't have software ready.

 

[XOR != OR]

Cloverfield tablets won't matter much if they are priced at $800+ as has been suggested. 99% of people will buy an Android tablet or iPad for half that money and have access to a ton more apps and be just as productive.

MS is betting their future on a world of tablets and making everyone else suffer a hard to use desktop OS experience, while their hardware partner Intel won't have software ready.

Ironically, Win8 tablets seem awesome for businesses that have a need for tablets. I know I'll be getting at least 4, probably more.

We are using ipads right now, but they just don't do everything we want them to do, and are completely unmanaged.

 

[heatlesssun]

Cloverfield tablets won't matter much if they are priced at $800+ as has been suggested. 99% of people will buy an Android tablet or iPad for half that money and have access to a ton more apps and be just as productive.

MS is betting their future on a world of tablets and making everyone else suffer a hard to use desktop OS experience, while their hardware partner Intel won't have software ready.

Be just as productive running a mobile OS as a full desktop OS and the many more apps available in that space? That's a very odd argument to make.

 

[MrCrispy]

Be just as productive running a mobile OS as a full desktop OS and the many more apps available in that space? That's a very odd argument to make.

Not really considering it is a tablet after all and is going to be used for media consumption most of the time rather than creation. I fail to see how a Arm Surface RT with Office won't satisfy the needs of almost everyone considering MS is heavily pushing WinRT and there's almost no reason to run x86 apps (and hence need the Pro version).

 

[heatlesssun]

Not really considering it is a tablet after all and is going to be used for media consumption most of the time rather than creation.

The point of something like a Clover Trail tablet especially with a keyboard dock that is coming standard on some models, is for the express purpose of having a device that can be used as a tablet AND a laptop and productivity machine in one device. And the battery life and weight on these things can be incredible it looks. The HP Envy x2 is looking to get something like 18 hours at 3.1 lbs in the dock.

 

[MrCrispy]

The point of something like a Clover Trail tablet especially with a keyboard dock that is coming standard on some models, is for the express purpose of having a device that can be used as a tablet AND a laptop and productivity machine in one device. And the battery life and weight on these things can be incredible it looks. The HP Envy x2 is looking to get something like 18 hours at 3.1 lbs in the dock.

We're talking about 2 different things. Those tablets you talk about with keyboard, dock etc are going to be well in the $800+ range, and won't be competing in the tablet market, which is my point. The target for these is laptop owners, which is much much smaller than tablets.

 

[Tsumi]

Not really considering it is a tablet after all and is going to be used for media consumption most of the time rather than creation. I fail to see how a Arm Surface RT with Office won't satisfy the needs of almost everyone considering MS is heavily pushing WinRT and there's almost no reason to run x86 apps (and hence need the Pro version).

You clearly don't have a good understanding of how Microsoft is doing their tablets.

Windows RT is ARM-based ONLY. Those are the cheap tablets that start around $200.

Then there's the Windows RTM, which is a full-fledged desktop OS used with any x86 based hardware, whether its laptop, desktop, or tablet. These are the expensive tablets.

There's also businesses that need to run proprietary programs on the go, and those programs will not be submitted to any kind of store due to their proprietary nature. That's what these x86 tablets also aim at.

 

[heatlesssun]

We're talking about 2 different things. Those tablets you talk about with keyboard, dock etc are going to be well in the $800+ range, and won't be competing in the tablet market, which is my point. The target for these is laptop owners, which is much much smaller than tablets.

Huh? You were the made the comparison:

Cloverfield tablets won't matter much if they are priced at $800+ as has been suggested. 99% of people will buy an Android tablet or iPad for half that money and have access to a ton more apps and be just as productive.

The Samsung Series 5 Clover Trail is $750 with the dock and 64GB of SSD. When you add a keyboard, 64GB and a case to an iPad you've got a setup that's not any cheaper.

 

[E^vol]

Windows RT is ARM-based ONLY. Those are the cheap tablets that start around $200.

Surface RT running Windows RT. More like $300 according to Ballmer.

Then there's the Windows RTM, which is a full-fledged desktop OS used with any x86 based hardware, whether its laptop, desktop, or tablet. These are the expensive tablets.

Surface Pro running Windows 8 Pro.

You clearly don't have a good understanding of how Microsoft is doing their tablets.

If you're going to correct someone, get your facts straight first.

 

[Tsumi]

Surface RT running Windows RT. More like $300 according to Ballmer.


Surface Pro running Windows 8 Pro.


If you're going to correct someone, get your facts straight first.

Surface RT isn't the only ARM Windows-based tablet that's going to be out there, is it? Many tablets start around the $200-300 mark nowadays. Likewise, Surface Pro isn't going to be the only x86 Windows-based tablet.

There's Windows RT and then there's Windows RTM. If you want to be really anal about the names, it's Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 RTM. Windows 8 RTM is designed to run on any x86 hardware, whether it's tablet, desktop, or laptop, without modifications needed to the OS.

Maybe you should get your facts straight too?

 

[wonderfield]

RTM is just a name Microsift uses for a developmental progress milestone. Windows RT also has an RTM version, though it's obviously not being released for public consumption. The official product names are: Windows 8; Windows 8 Pro; Windows 8 Enterprise; Windows RT.

 

[E^vol]

Surface RT isn't the only ARM Windows-based tablet that's going to be out there, is it? Many tablets start around the $200-300 mark nowadays. Likewise, Surface Pro isn't going to be the only x86 Windows-based tablet.

Agreed, sorry about that.
I referred to the Surface products (as examples) to try to clear things up as they are the flagship Win8 tablets in terms of what a Win8 tablet design should be, according to Microsoft. I was not trying to imply that they would be the only ones.

There's Windows RT and then there's Windows RTM. If you want to be really anal about the names, it's Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 RTM. Windows 8 RTM is designed to run on any x86 hardware, whether it's tablet, desktop, or laptop, without modifications needed to the OS.

RTM stands for "Release To Manufacturer" and is, as wonderfield mentioned, a developmental phase, not a product name.

Maybe you should get your facts straight too?

Well, I wasn't wrong...

 

[Greggy_D]

Surface RT running Windows RT. More like $300 according to Ballmer.

I have a feeling it is going to come in around $400 and the keyboard will be an extra $80-100.