User-Created Patch Lets Kaby Lake and Ryzen PCs Receive Windows 7/8.1 Updates

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    I think a war is about to go down between Microsoft and the code community. A GitHub user has released a patch that allows the latest systems (i.e., those with Kaby Lake or Ryzen processors) running Windows 7 or 8.1 to continue getting updates. Many rightfully assume that Microsoft is going to give them the finger by releasing an override—but we could very well see some kind of competition going down on who can out-patch one another.

    Less than a week ago, Microsoft began actively blocking users from receiving updates on PCs running Windows 7 or 8 with a modern Intel Kaby Lake or AMD Ryzen processor. Surprise! An open-source patch is already available that lets affected users start snagging Windows updates yet again. That sure didn't take long. What the patch boils down to is two flags: IsCPUSupported(void) and IsDeviceServiceable(void). On an unmodified system running a Kaby Lake or Ryzen processor, Windows would discover that the CPU was not supported, and therefore the device was not serviceable. But with the patch applied, Windows is told that everything's fine and the hardware is supported.
     
  2. Damar

    Damar 2[H]4U

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    As if we couldn't see this coming a mile away.....

    It's been war for a while now, just that now its a shooting war.
     
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  3. Shotglass01

    Shotglass01 [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is great, but I'm sure it'll be defeated easily by MS at some point. That is even if MS cares. Sadly, they don't really give a shit about anything except 10.
     
  4. Hypergreatthing

    Hypergreatthing Gawd

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    MS can go get f*cked. If the work around is trivial enough that someone slapped it together without any real hacks (probably just added some hardware strings to a ini file ala driver hacking), then they deserve this. It shows that there's no real reason for this to happen, they just want to shuffle people to their new advertising platform.
     
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  5. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

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    I'm still waiting for someone to sue at some point. Really I hope MS has a disable the fix update fight for a few months. The bad press should help drive at least a few more to Linux. Linux the OS that doesn't hate you for buying new hardware.
     
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  6. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    Great if they don't care about anything but 10, they won't waste time on developer hours to block this. Whew
     
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  7. Armenius

    Armenius [H]ardForum Junkie

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    In before the Linux guys show...
    Damn it!
     
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  8. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    Remember the old DX fight with XP? Patches came out that allowed XP to run DX10 and up. Microsoft went into a war to block that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  9. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Best idea ever. Install a patch to windows, downloaded from internet :D
     
  10. katanaD

    katanaD [H]Lite

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    now we just need to beware of crap loaded patches that have "extra" code
     
  11. Hypergreatthing

    Hypergreatthing Gawd

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    I actually looked at the github link provided. The developer hacked the dll file that specifically checks the cpu and skips it.

    the absolutely sad part is that no other changes were done. that means none of the updates depend on the cpu, it is just a ploy from microsoft to exclude the new cpus. This kind of implementation should be illegal (from microsoft, not the hack).
     
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  12. Spartacus

    Spartacus [H]ard|Gawd

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    In general, it's true that it's not a good idea to download third party patches for your OS.

    In this case, it's well documented what he's doing and he has the attention of the press.
    It's not very likely that he's screwing with people.

    If you look at his documentation, he appears to know what he's doing.

    I trust him as much or more than I trust MS at this point. :D

    .
     
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  13. katanaD

    katanaD [H]Lite

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    oh, its not him i am talking about. no, what i meant is someone will take his patch, add in some junk, then release it with the same name so when people jump on google and search for the patch, their crap loaded site is on the list, maybe higher ranked through various shenanigans
     
  14. Spartacus

    Spartacus [H]ard|Gawd

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    Possible I guess.

    The a-holes have hit the site for the "Cleanup" utility again since it's a popular site, it has some kind of malware install attempt just from visiting.
    They like to mess with the "Classic Shell" site too.

    May a pestilence be upon the trouble makers.

    .
     
  15. M76

    M76 2[H]4U

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    If they didn't care they wouldn't have wasted time on implementing the block in the first place.
     
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  16. M76

    M76 2[H]4U

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    And that's why the defence ms shills give "you can get around it by using 3rd party app" is such a weak excuse. Driving people to download potential malware just to fix something they didn't have to break in the first place.
     
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  17. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Not sure what the legal grounds here would be. At least with 7, Microsoft has no obligation to support it brand new hardware. There might be a case with Windows 8.1 which still in mainstream support but that still doesn't obligate them to support an obsolete OS on brand new hardware.
     
  18. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    A few lines of code to do a CPU check, not exactly a big effort. But sure they care because bottom line, while these CPUs may run fine, Microsoft isn't validating 7/8.1 patches against these CPUs. There shouldn't be a problem but if there is Microsoft isn't going to fix the problem.
     
  19. Hypergreatthing

    Hypergreatthing Gawd

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    When people bought windows 7, it wasn't because it was paired up with/to support only a certain amount of cpus. It should be up to the manufacturer (intel) to support the Os with drivers like it is for everything else. Intel does actually create chipset drivers for the OS so this isn't an issue.
    Kaby lake/ryzen should be 100% backwards compatible.
    Microsoft is just using this as an excuse to move people to their new ad/data collection platform. Using the excuse of not validating the update with the new CPUs is just an excuse.
     
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  20. M76

    M76 2[H]4U

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    So instead of waiting for a potential problem in the future that has miniscule chance of happening. (eg a security update that works fine on everything but these new cpus) they decided to go ahead and break it for everyone right now. What marvellous foresight!.
    And besides I'm pretty sure they still have to check patches against these cpus because the security updates are still installable on systems with this cpus manually.
     
  21. katanaD

    katanaD [H]Lite

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    from my understanding of this, MS is actively blocking the latest CPU's from being able to patch when running win 7. there is NO reason why the latest CPU's cannot run any and all pre-existing software. Win 7 couldnt give 2 shits what version of an X86 CPU it is running on, as long as it can run all its code. which the latest gen CPU's can most assuredly do.

    while it may not be illegal per se, it sure is a dick move by MS
     
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  22. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    But if they did break something with an update they aren't going to fix it that's the key point here. Then people that are complaining about this wouldn't just accept that an update broke something and because these OSes aren't supported on this hardware. So again, the real question is the support, not just these updates being blocked.

    Again, I don't agree with this decision, just not worth it the number of people this really effects or that care.
     
  23. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

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    Who's going to sue Microsoft? By the time the legal battle is over, Microsoft would have Windows 2020 released. Either that or people would have switched to Linux.

    What's worse, not getting updates at all or using a 3rd party patch? If this were a company, you wouldn't do it, but who uses new CPUs with anything less than Windows 10?

    Gamers would do this, cause if the system is just used to play games this wouldn't be an issue. Companies wouldn't upgrade hardware before software. People who use Facebook all day aren't going to give a shit. This is for a very small group of people.
     
  24. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Exactly. Future patches are not pre-existing. Yes, they SHOULD work but unless these updates are validated on the CPUs in question, well, many a developer has thought something would work fine only to find out later that it didn't because it wasn't tested. Microsoft is certainly familiar with that scenario.

    And I agree. But that's not necessarily a great thing. Skylake and moving in Kaby introduced some funky new power state stuff. Now if the OS isn't aware of it like 7 and 8.1 and even the first RTM of Windows 10, you just don't get the benefit. But I can imagine installing Windows 7 or 8.1 on a Kaby laptop and then wondering why there battery life is way off from Windows 10 users and then blaming Microsoft for deliberately sabotaging 7/8.1 to get worse battery life.

    I agree. But if an update broke something many who say this would also accuse Microsoft of deliberately breaking something that they aren't even trying to make work.
     
  25. Shotglass01

    Shotglass01 [H]ard|Gawd

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    They care deeply, a little too deeply, on forcing everyone to 10.

    See above.
    But what I mean is they may not play a cat and mouse game trying to block the un-blocks. Although it would be trivial for them to bake in something that couldn't be blocked.

    Exactly.
     
  26. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Something as complex as an OS and new CPU designs that are thoroughly regression tested is more than an excuse. Again, I've said Microsoft shouldn't have blocked these updates. But it's not just a simple excuse.
     
  27. Shotglass01

    Shotglass01 [H]ard|Gawd

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    If someone on Github can defeat the lockout, then yes it is. Because if it was that big of a damn deal, you can bet MS would have made it harder if not impossible to defeat. So, yea, I don't think it's anywhere near as 'complex' as your making it out to be. And power save states and additional hardware DRM aren't exactly a major departure from older x86 architectures. This literally is not as hard as you believe.
     
  28. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Bypassing a function call isn't the same thing as validating OS changes. Again, I'm only saying that if Microsoft released a patch that broke something that the same people complaining about this wouldn't just give Microsoft a pass on a bad update that effected their officially unsupported hardware.
     
  29. OregonLAN

    OregonLAN 2[H]4U

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    It's one thing to block Windows updates because of CPU incompatibilities. It's another thing to block Windows updates because you want to inconvenience/encourage users to upgrade. Let users choose when to upgrade their OS; don't force your gimmicky obsolescence upon us. Users will upgrade when it's time, when their ready, when you stop supporting Windows 7 or when their new hardware is incompatible. Until then, focus on refining your newest OS. Stop trying to force feed us your swill...
     
  30. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    This isn't forcing anyone to upgrade pre-existing hardware that came with 7 or 8.1. Indeed that's why it's such a stupid decision because it effects so few people and in particular people who don't like Windows 10 to begin with.
     
  31. Shotglass01

    Shotglass01 [H]ard|Gawd

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    We do validations too. 90 to 95% of the time, there's no real changes. It's not complex. And there's been no serious architecture changes in x86. You're flat-out making this out to be much more than it is. Like I said, if MS were really concerned about it then they would have made it much harder to defeat. Flip side, Intel didn't make Skylake and Kaby Lake to break win 7/8.1 either. You can bet your butt they'd be all over this if Kaby completely refused to work with 7/8.1.
     
  32. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Did I say it was complex? All I said is that Microsoft simply isn't doing because they aren't supporting these OSes on with these new chips and that that is the underlying issue here.
     
  33. M76

    M76 2[H]4U

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    Those who have a working software ecosystem on windows 7 that they're perfectly happy with, and windows 10 offers them nothing but headache. But they would benefit greatly from the increased computational capacity of new cpus. That's who. What happens to be exactly the case in my company. There is no desire to upgrade to Windows 10 not even to 8.1. In fact there is great pushback from the employees at the mere mention of windows 10. As an experiment I installed one of the assistants computers with windows 10, she refuses to even touch it. The computer has been sitting there unconnected for a few months now.
    And frankly I understand perfectly. if it ain't broke don't try to fix it.
    I don't want 10 on my work computer either. All I would get is grief with all the older applications I run. And compatibility issues galore. And even if I could get it to run, why would I want to? There is nothing to gain. The best I could achieve is it not being any worse. So why? Because MS demands it? Who the fuck are they to dictate which version of Windows I am to use from the versions still under extended support? It wasn't more than two years ago when I upgraded the last holdout XP machines to 7.
     
  34. Shotglass01

    Shotglass01 [H]ard|Gawd

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    You pretty much did. And, they should have every reason to at least support 8.1 which is still in support. It's nothing more than forced 10.
     
  35. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    I agree with the 8.1 point. But who is forcing the purchase of brand new CPUs? This has nothing to do with forcing people to upgrade to Windows on existing hardware.
     
  36. xX_Jack_Carver_Xx

    xX_Jack_Carver_Xx 2[H]4U

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    This is all hilarious .... right up until Windows 11, the Cloud based downloaded RENTAL OS that costs you $9.99/mo for the rest of eternity. Then no one will be laughing.

    Microsoft's instances of apparently 'just being a dick' are actually psychological training to make the masses pliable and more likely to willingly accept the coming shift from 'Ownership' of a product to 'Rental' of the product.

    Do Not Accept this. MSoft either stops the nonsense, or we finally make a serious effort to move to 'Future-Linux', whatever that is.
     
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  37. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    I'll be more than happy to move to Linux when it supports what I need and want from my PCs. The Linux community has had a LOT of time to work on this issue. They just don't get it. No one gives a shit about the OS, they care about experiences and what the OS supports.
     
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  38. Advil

    Advil [H]ard|Gawd

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    What Microsoft is doing here is a wrong move. I agree fully. But let us play devil's advocate for just a moment.

    Look what happened with XP. The support cycle became frankly ludicrous. There are still too many machines running it. I work on PCs every day. Windows 7 is starting to have major tech snags with modern hardware and it's not all Microsoft's fault. It's OLD. Really, really old. They're THINKING that this will help break the cycle a little earlier by getting more new systems on to the new OS.

    The good part of the deal is the MS still allows any Win 7 or Win 8 license to install Win 10 when you install from installation media. Essentially Win 10 is still scott free if you have a valid Win 7 or Win 8 license.

    The idiotic part of the deal is the forced denial of updates that would otherwise work just fine. There are a host of reasons you might want new hardware and NEED to run Win 7.

    Catch 22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If MS doesn't crowbar people off Win 7 then we will have another 15 year old OS that just can't be phased out even when it becomes absurd. It might make more sense, if MS really believes that a forced break in hardware support is the only way is to convince Intel and the MB chipset makers to not driver support anything after this current gen. But that's a hard sell. CPU and MB vendors want the widest market possible.

    It may be that MS is just going to have to throw up their hands and accept that because of the nature of their business these unending OS's are just going to be one of the downsides of doing what they do best.
     
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  39. chaos4u

    chaos4u Limp Gawd

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    Downloading this patch is just asking for trouble. Not because of malicious files and evil backdoors.

    But more than likely microsoft will sabotage the machine causing it to blue screen repeatedly.
    They will get away with it because it will be far to easy for Microsoft to say because your running unsupported code reasons.

    The simple answer is, just dont update anymore.

    yeah yeah yeah, rabble rabble rabble, what about my security !!

    thats been long gone ever since microsoft has subverted the trust in the patching process.

    so now it has come too, not recommending updates because you can not trust what microsoft is going to do to your computer.

    which is just fine. one more nail in microscasket as they now have a operating system you can not trust. nor can you trust their updates for supposedly supported platforms.
     
  40. Nenu

    Nenu Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Creating bs through paranoia always works, well done.
    If they start making blue screens occur I'll be the first to jump on them.
    Your suggestion that it will happen at this juncture is wild and would be plain stupid.
    Not that stupid stops them tbh, but lets see some evidence first eh.
     
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