User-Created Patch Lets Kaby Lake and Ryzen PCs Receive Windows 7/8.1 Updates

Well, that is a pisser. My z97 mb was getting flackey, and I was going to do a mb replacement (I'm still a reactionary old fart running 8.1). Looked at z-120/220's & 7600k/7700k and just keep the rest of my build. Saw the announcement about no updates for 8.1, searched for another z97 (damn, those suckers are a little sparse on the ground now) so bought one, swapped it out and with a few driver update/reinstall got it running fine. OC's a little faster, kind of nice. Really wanted a good excuse to go z220/kabby, but not for a few more years now. Then AFTER I replace, this hits the streets. Damn.
 
pek said:
Well, that is a pisser. My z97 mb was getting flackey, and I was going to do a mb replacement (I'm still a reactionary old fart running 8.1). Looked at z-120/220's & 7600k/7700k and just keep the rest of my build. Saw the announcement about no updates for 8.1, searched for another z97 (damn, those suckers are a little sparse on the ground now) so bought one, swapped it out and with a few driver update/reinstall got it running fine. OC's a little faster, kind of nice. Really wanted a good excuse to go z220/kabby, but not for a few more years now. Then AFTER I replace, this hits the streets. Damn.
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What you said is here is EXACTLY WHY MICROSOFT SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS.
 
As long as this patch is above board and does what it says and no more I am for user-created. Forcing people to 1 OS is pretty shady considering what we know about w10. Since MS OS's have backdoors to spy on people anyway. This is a moot point. Spying on customers is nothing new to MS or the other 3 letter agencies.
 
ChadD said:
I'm still waiting for someone to sue at some point. Really I hope MS has a disable the fix update fight for a few months. The bad press should help drive at least a few more to Linux. Linux the OS that doesn't hate you for buying new hardware.
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You're right, Linux won't hate you, it just won't work, as is the case most of the time. NDISWrapper is garbage.
 
auntjemima said:
You're right, Linux won't hate you, it just won't work, as is the case most of the time. NDISWrapper is garbage.
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And this is the plague of desktop Linux. Linux will fix all of the ills of Windows, no more malware, no more spyware. It will all just work. As long drop everything you're doing and listen to an anonymous on the internet. Then maybe, sort of, if they approve of what you're doing. An incompatible Office file?! NOOOO! VR?! Just waving hands in the air!? NOOO! OneNote, never heard of it. NOOO!

Linux folks are all about choice as long at it's their choices. No different from Microsoft.
 
Not sure what all the uproar is about.

No - Microsoft doesn't want you using Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 anymore. They're not going to validate patches on the CPU's because they're not going to invest time testing those older operating systems on newer platforms. It's very clear the direction they're going as a company, has been for years now. You can put up or shut up. I'm not a shill, and I frankly don't like it, but as they say - not a fuck was given. As for me? I guess I'll hold on to my older versions of Windows until they EOL and then I'll find something else. Probably won't be Windows because at this point, I just don't see Microsoft moving backward in their decision to push forward with their "big brother" style of computing.

Edit: Bring on Vulkan. And if it doesn't work out - then as far as I'm concerned, I'm probably just going to be done with gaming altogether or just continue playing ye olde games of LAN parties (UT-2004 anyone?).
 
heatlesssun said:
Bypassing a function call isn't the same thing as validating OS changes. Again, I'm only saying that if Microsoft released a patch that broke something that the same people complaining about this wouldn't just give Microsoft a pass on a bad update that effected their officially unsupported hardware.
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I tried to explain it to you in a previous thread.

For Linux the number of lines of code needed to fully support Ryzens new features where right around 1000 lines... which where contributed by AMD themselves. (so if THEY did all the work for Linux do you think they wouldn't have done all the work for MS ?) As for the Intel power state stuff it was something around 400 lines of code total... again provided by Intel. I am not going to go and dig out links to the Code submissions but they are not hard to find if your curious and want to look at how not complicated the code really is.

Red Hat has already back ported the Intel support into their RHEL which is the most rock steady commercial OS in existence. AMDs 17h(Ryzen) stuffs should be included in the next version.

Adding support for chips based on x86 with only minor architecture changes or added features is not a big deal... and the work isn't even done by MS anyway. MS doesn't have access to Intel and AMD design specs, code needed for support is provided by them.
 
auntjemima said:
You're right, Linux won't hate you, it just won't work, as is the case most of the time. NDISWrapper is garbage.
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lol seriously what are you trying to do install Linux on a Compaq laptop from 2006. NDISwrapper is for installing windows XP!! drivers for extremely old wireless nics. Really stop trying to make it work and just go buy a new 8 year old Ebay laptop it will be an upgrade.
 
I just put Windows 7 Pro on my Ryzen build today, took all of an extra 15 minutes to work around the USB support issue and it runs far better than my Windows 10 botched CU did. Something went wrong for me when I did that upgrade so I'm going to do a clean install with the updated ISO at some point, but I have the OS's on two separate SSDs. I did updates offline with WSUS and it worked great, 30 minutes and it was done no problems.
 
ChadD said:
I tried to explain it to you in a previous thread.

For Linux the number of lines of code needed to fully support Ryzens new features where right around 1000 lines...
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1000 lines of code that Microsoft was NEVER going to write for Windows 7. Because Windows XP. I never said it was hard, I said that for Windows 7 they were NEVER going to do it. Period. They said that a year ago. I didn't say it was the right call but Windows 7 is how old now? Windows 8.1 I would say sure, do it. And like anyone running Windows 8.1 didn't bash me over while I was running it. The hypocrisy is thick around here.
 
Advil said:
Windows 7 is starting to have major tech snags with modern hardware and it's not all Microsoft's fault. It's OLD. Really, really old.
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heatlesssun said:
I didn't say it was the right call but Windows 7 is how old now?
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Protip: Code doesn't have an age limit.

It's just code, and if it was written to work with a given processor or chipset based on x86 architecture as everything in personal computers of all shapes and sizes happen to be (aside from ARM platforms I suppose) then it can be readily and easily modified to work on any modified x86 architecture meaning Skylake/Kaby Lake/Ryzen/what-the-fuck-ever with the simplest of additional coding and there's nothing that prevents Microsoft or Apple or any Linux kernel contributor from doing this and anybody that says otherwise is just being delusional. All of the newest latest and greatest CPU and chipset architecture available today and coming in the near future is still based on x86 architecture and is easily supported with simple coding additions to the code base that already exists today.

The entire idea that "oh that OS is too old..." is ridiculous, it really is but people are going to continue to focus on it. Forced obsolescence is actually more of a problem than most people would care to admit, even the knowledgeable folk amongst us enthusiasts but it's not really a valid excuse or even a good reason to just fucking dump an older fully functional completely workable operating system in favor of shoving something new out of yet another cubicle farm of software developers.

The reason XP lasted so long and still exists in many places is because Microsoft fucked up internally with Longhorn and scrapped the entire project mid-flight and when it dropped outta the sky (ok, stupid metaphor, I know) they started over again almost from scratch with what became Vista so the development cycle took literally twice as long to get Vista out the door as they had expected the OS to replace XP to be pushed - Microsoft is the reason XP lasted so long so they're the only ones to blame, not consumers because they didn't give those consumers any other OS to use except for XP for 8 years basically. Windows 7's age has nothing to do with this because - at its core - it's not different enough from Windows 10 that it cannot be easily modified for newer CPUs and chipsets in a simple manner.

Here's the blunt hard truth of this matter: Microsoft, and perhaps AMD as well with Apple potentially on board too, are forcing the newer versions of their OSes on users simply because it's what they want to do and there is no other actual reason for it to be happening - if anyone tries to offer up "Well, <whatever OS> is old now and a problem to support..." you can look them squarely in the eye or hit a Reply button and tell them "You're a fucking moron, there is no technical reason they cannot continue to support a product that a lot of people PAID FOR and were told would be supported for <insert period of time here> per the EULA in the box and a period of time even now publicly posted at the company's website and therefore they should, but they won't."

In simpler terms, say I have $100 cash in my hand and I can do whatever I want with it. I don't owe anybody any money, I don't have any bills I can put it towards, it's mine free and clear and I can do whatever I want. Now say a good friend comes by and sees I have the $100 in my hand. I trust this person, it's a good friend of mine, and let's say that friend asks to borrow the $100 - which is mine free and clear and I can shred it or burn it or spend it, anything I choose - and I know he's good for it and would pay me back yet I say "Sorry, but no."

That's a situation of having the capability to do something and making a conscious decision to say no, in other words I won't do it. That's not the same as saying I can't do it, that's me willfully just saying "No, I won't loan you the $100" even if it's something I can technically do at that moment.

This is the case with this hardware support bullshit Microsoft and AMD and other hardware and software makers are now pushing on end users. I think it's a fucking lame practice but even so I do understand why they're doing it. They made vast sums of money from Windows 7 and they probably still do (even though they won't admit it) and they've made a few drops in a bucket with Windows 10 in terms of sales (even with it pre-installed on all new OEM personal computers aside from Apple products) and for them to just turn the cold shoulder to Windows 7 (and 8 as well, 8.1 was basically a free update for 8 so it never really had much at all in terms of actual retail/OEM sales). To slap all the customers that paid for retail licenses with Windows 7/8 and then on top of that slam a door in their faces by creating this entirely and purely artificial "lock-out" with the newer hardware is utterly ridiculous but they'll do it anyway. Why?

Because they can.

I honestly don't have a really huge issue with what Microsoft and AMD and other manufacturers are doing - believe it or not - but for the love of whatever higher power you might believe itn stop making it sound like supporting Windows 7/8/8.1 with a few lines of code is an impossibility because that itself is an utter fabrication of lies. If they simply don't want to support the older OSes anymore, fine, but when they (or anyone else) takes to defending it like it's not technically possible, well...

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ChadD said:
lol seriously what are you trying to do install Linux on a Compaq laptop from 2006. NDISwrapper is for installing windows XP!! drivers for extremely old wireless nics. Really stop trying to make it work and just go buy a new 8 year old Ebay laptop it will be an upgrade.
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Are you implying that all new hardware provides Linux drivers? We both know that's not the case. There is more out there besides Nvidia and AMD.
 
auntjemima said:
Are you implying that all new hardware provides Linux drivers? We both know that's not the case. There is more out there besides Nvidia and AMD.
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Well I was replying to someone that suggested Linux was terrible because NDISWrapper is terrible. The first version of NDISWrapper was published 12 years ago... its a tool for using XP drivers for wireless cards with screwy firmware from back in the day under Linux. It is hardly intended for serious use under Linux these days... it would be like getting mad at MS if your 12 year old Wireless card didn't have a windows 10 driver and wouldn't work.

If your shopping for a Linux laptop... and your plan instead of supporting a Linux selling OEM like system76 is to buy an off the shelf Windows machine and kill windows. Of course check and make sure the machines wireless card has a build in kernel driver.
https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers
This isn't 2007... wireless card drivers for Intel / Qualcomm / Broadcom / Marvell / Realtek / TI / Nokia... and others are written BY THE MANUFACTURERS and submitted to the kernel team. Its always best to check the list before you buy anything new.
Every new kernel has a ton of driver additions for Networking devices.
https://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_4.10#head-3ea7674e8af7c31d02191436d648d5b27dee1a5e-2
So if you just bought a brand new windows shipped laptop... also ensure your installing a Linux distro running a kernel new enough to have support for your hardware baked in.
 
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Remind me, systems that get updates via WSUS are not affected, right? Because there will be vast numbers of corporates running standardised Windows 7 images and they'll want their new KL PCs to get updates.
 
ChadD said:
I'm still waiting for someone to sue at some point. Really I hope MS has a disable the fix update fight for a few months. The bad press should help drive at least a few more to Linux. Linux the OS that doesn't hate you for buying new hardware.
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No, you'll just be waiting a few months to years to get decent or any support for that new hardware. New laptop running linux? Hah. Hah.
 
Ranulfo said:
No, you'll just be waiting a few months to years to get decent or any support for that new hardware. New laptop running linux? Hah. Hah.
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Dell
System76 (Video of Pixar showing off some real time rendering on a system76 laptop)
Those are the 2 most mainstream Linux Laptop vendors. Sure it would be nice if more companies defied the MS marketing dept. Some others have started with chrome books... I imagine more of the mainstream PC OEM companies won't go further until google starts shipping an OS into the mainstream and higher end market.
 
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