[???] use USB C monitor without USB C?

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by allenpan, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    [???] use USB C monitor without USB C?

    i have an ASUS MB169C+ an USB C type monitor, how do i connect it to standard PC?

    i know USB C carries DP+Power, is there a splinter/Y-cable that allows me to combine DP output from PC and USB 3.0 and combine into USB C?
     
  2. LazN

    LazN Limp Gawd

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    Not likely, as USB C power levels are a lot higher than standard USB, so it'd also need a power brick at minimum, then if you weren't plugging into the correct thing you risk frying whatever you plugged it into.. Are you attmpeting connecting to a Desktop or a Laptop? If a desktop you could buy a USB - C PCI-E card: https://www.amazon.com/Asus-USB-3-1-TYPE-C-CARD/dp/B00YDPIJ0G But I doubt even that would work as it actually uses the DP Alternate (Alt) mode, that a standard USB-C won't even provide. Compatible laptops / motherboards are listed at the bottom of this page: MB169C+ - Overview
     
  3. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    hummmmmm please look up ASUS MB169C+ it is "DP Alt mode over USB C"

    my understanding that USB C is combining DP + USB 3.0, in the ASUS monitor case, the USB C from laptop provides both DP ALT signal and power over USB on the rest of the pin,

    now, instead of USB C to USB C (Laptop <-> monitor), i want to do DP + USB 3.0 A <-> USB C (Laptop <-> Monitor)

    essentially, DP+USBA <-> USB C (i can make one, but if there is one out there.... i will just buy it) and does it exist?
     
  4. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    remember in DP over USB C, the USB data pin is been re-purposed for DP signal
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Quix

    Quix 2[H]4U

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    And more power than that combination of cables could provide. Signalling is controlled by the controller, with remappable pins, and interfaces like that don't take to being messed around with. If I were you I'd return that screen ASAP before you run out of time to do so.
     
  6. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Actually, there is one pin call cc pin that control the flow,

    As for reverse dp alt to usb I got a feeling it use physical mapping to remap it...

    The question is, since my target is a fix function device (monitor) those pin shold be already defined (not remappable), if that is the case there should be just a simple y-cable

    However, if is the other way around, PC USB C to dp + USB 3.0A, it might have questionable mapping issue, as PC side need to able to switch the pin around

    Ladt, Power = Voltage x Amp, that is why the additional USB 3.0 A is required, instead purely power of DP (DP does provide 8w)
     
  7. i7Baby

    i7Baby Limp Gawd

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    Its only made for connecting to:

    Compatible devices
    • ASUS G752 notebook (17.3-inch)
    • ASUS UX501VW notebook (15.6-inch)
    • Apple MacBook (12-inch)
    • Chromebook Pixel (12.85-inch)
    Compatible motherboard
    • ASUS Maximus VIII Extreme motherboard
    • ASUS Z170-Premium motherboard

    Use another monitor for your PC.
     
  8. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok, I guess no one else on the forum is ticker or engineers...

    As an engineer and maker, I never take the manufacturer word much, as I usually retro fit electronic parts or repurpose parts for non-intended purpose
     
  9. Nobu

    Nobu [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well, the cable specs are available online at the USB working group's website (under "Developers"), and I'm sure you could find the specs for displayport cables somewhere if you wanted to cut up a usb-c and DP cable and splice them together. The problem then becomes insuring the wires are still sufficiently insulated to prevent cross-talk, etc..
     
  10. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    actually, since it is just signal replacement, there is no need to worry about cross talk, and this is DP no LVDS singal

    [​IMG]
     
  11. silent-circuit

    silent-circuit [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You seem to believe you can do this... so do it, or listen to the numerous people who've already told you why it isn't likely to work. Either way, stop.
     
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  12. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    My initial question is whether or not I can make it, is if this cable exist? Or anyone that has experience hacking/tinkering with USB standard.

    Persinally, I hate people telling you that it can't be done, or you cant do it! That is wrong type of mentality,
     
  13. Koween

    Koween Limp Gawd

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    Since this monitor has a very specific use, i doubt there is a Y cable that you can buy for your usage case (display port on one side + usb3.0 for power and usbC on the other). Now, as far as I understand from skimming over the whole thing at work, the asus monitor transports a DP signal over a usbC cable. The question is -does it require some sort of handshake from a compatoble source device to work, or does it just accept any DP signal and just display it. Since the source device needs to know what is plugged into it, it should require a handshake of sorts from the monitor to know that "oh, okay, this is the monitor - I'm gonna transmit a display port compatible signal now". In that case it may be possible that the monitor wont even start accepting a signal if it does not receive a handshake - it may just continuously try it again and again.
    Basically, you will need to build a displayport/usbc y-cable. It should work if you use the power from the same pc and not an external adapter. But the question is if the monitor will even accept the signal without a handshake or whatever with the source. Without knowing how it works exactly, the only possible way is just to try it. Just double check the connections.
     
  14. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan Did you ever find a solution for this? I have the same monitors... however, I do have a USB-C port on my laptop (but it doesn't support DisplayPort Alt Mode lol)... any suggestions? or should I just return the monitors?
     
  15. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    well... i will suggest return it, i did got hold of USB C - TB - ALT DP developer kit from usb alliance, and yes the USB C monitor is just DP signal (de-multiplexed) and use USB 5V 1A power (USB 3.0) and 5V .5A (USB 2.0)

    at the end you will need a multiplexer that serialize(encode) DP signal send over USB C cable, on the Monitor side the controller de-serialize the data and treat it as DP, USB us merely power provider

    the multiplexer/serializer is need it b/c of re purposing of the pin, and both side need to know the pin has been re-purposed (that is why monitor need de-serialize)

    just get HDMI monitor:

    Gechic 2501h/1503H/1503I(w/ touch)
     
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  16. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    Thank you so much!
     
  17. karatekid430

    karatekid430 n00bie

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    Hello,

    There is a way to do it now. Not pretty, though.

    The Sunix UPD2018 is the first and only USB-C host card that has alt-mode. There is a DisplayPort connection into the card, and one of the USB-C ports can send that video signal through. You connect it to your graphics card.

    On that note, the PCIe Thunderbolt 3 cards might work also, but very few motherboards have the TB header required to support them. So buying one on the off chance that it might work purely as a DisplayPort to USB-C adapter is risky.

    I cannot verify whether the Sunix UPD2018 can be powered through the PCIe slot yet without being connected to a computer, and be purely a DisplayPort to USB-C adapter, without a USB signal. I have not received mine yet. Still in transit from Newegg.com in USA, en route to Australia. I will let you know when I get it. I do not have a Molex to PCIe x1 slot, but I can look up how to put sticky tape on the correct pins to disable PCIe communication, but allow power from the motherboard.

    I just signed up for an account to tell you this.

    By the way, I am frustrated, too! Not only by the lack of adapters, but by the lack of people asking good questions like this! I had to search dozens of times with different keywords to find this forum where somebody asked this very good question.

    The adapters might be limited because the USB standard expressly prohibits adapters with the USB-C female plug on them, because it would allow consumers to create unsafe or dangerous configurations. However, it is very possible to make a USB-A host to USB-C adapter properly, using all of the proper integrated circuits in between to protect the circuitry and ensure safety. This is because AFAIK, most USB-C ports are just a normal USB 3.X controller behind some USB-C port controllers - so instead of having this chip, they should personally just take the signal from an internal USB 3.0 19pin header. I don't know why no devices like this for consumers have been made. Because female USB-C must be allowed in some types of devices, or else nobody could make the PCIe add-in cards for desktops.

    Personally my dream for now is some company making a tiny, certified, enclosed unit which allows normal people to add USB-C to their projects. So a box that can be surface mounted, with the port, that can be configured in firmware to negotiate any desired voltage and current, and has a normal USB SuperSpeed header out for data connectivity with existing solutions. Also idiot proof, as in fully overload / short circuit / surge protected. Kind of like the USB Buddy PD Sink on Hackaday website. But better and more polished. Because I would use one as a benchtop power supply for tinkering with electronics projects. I get sick of having proprietary power sources for everything.

    I am so keen on this stuff at the moment, and need people to vent my findings on, and bounce ideas off. If anybody wants to talk USB-C or most things technology-related, I can do it all day and all night.

    Best wishes! I hope I helped with the first off-the-shelf solution.

    Karatekid430
     
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  18. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    karatekid430 I am THRILLED to hear what you just shared! I did the same thing (created an account on this forum just to ask the question/contribute to this thread). I will be standing by to receive your update once you receive the Sunix UPD2018 host card :-D Please don't forget to come back to tell us how it works out (I hope it works out lol)! Thank you for your input... coming up with a solution to this "issue" is like digging for gold lol
     
  19. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    I can confirm TB3 does carries DP signal and I have been using the ASUS MB169C+ with TB3 desktop, HP laptop and macbook
     
  20. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan You've been holding out on us all this time? lol this is GREAT to hear, because I never sent those monitors back lol I figured sometime (hopefully in the near future), there would be some workaround to connect them to my laptop :-D So karatekid430's setup will work? Can you guys possibly help me with exactly what would be needed to make this work with my ASUS MB169C+ monitors and my HP Envy x360 laptop (mentioned in a previous message in this thread)? God has sent you angels to be my saving grace :-D I'm so happy! lol thank you!!!
     
  21. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    I complete 4got about this thread... I post it last year in September ...
     
  22. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan Lol, well I'm really glad you decided to respond now with this confirmation :) Would you be able to tell me how to integrate this "TB3" with the monitors and my laptop? To be honest, I don't even know what a TB3 is (my background is frontend web development, so when it comes to hardware I'm kind of at a loss, sorry).
     
  23. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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  24. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan Thank you for the explanation!

    This is the laptop I got here: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N905A4R/

    It has a lightning bolt over the USB-A connector, but not the USB-C port... does that mean the TB3 connection won't work for me? If not, do you think karatekid430's setup will work with the The Sunix UPD2018 card?
     
  25. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    The lighting bolt over USB-A meaning super-speed and high power output,

    Urs does not even have USB-C... so no,

    As for UPD2018, using as external convertor might not work as it does need SYNC clock,

    If you want I can trade with you on a USB3.0 version for ur C

    I have few that are prototypes and has warranty...

    Here is few posting, I been selling them like hot cake!


    The one I have they are hand picked and calibrated for media review version and with custom firmware, I can calibrate one to match the HP laptop you got

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-ASUS-M...SB-Monitor-Media-Review-version-/282413052914
     
  26. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan But my laptop does have a USB-C port (it just doesn't support DP-AltMode lol): https://www.dropbox.com/s/7z17hw1n1ydxozd/2017-06-06 09.51.52.jpg?dl=0 (it's the port to the right of the media card reader).

    But I would LOVE to trade monitors with you in an effort to forego all the hassle of making the USB-C monitors work with my laptop lol Do you have 2 of the ASUS USB3.0 monitors to trade for my 2 ASUS USB-C monitors?

    My two are still in the package:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qjpgwzx5rgz3cpr/2017-06-06 09.56.55.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/2cwozw9cnvjdzsp/2017-06-06 09.57.30.jpg?dl=0
     
  27. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    I know I have 1 in warehouse I will check if I have 2, some reason the amazon link says only has USB-A ...
     
  28. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan Okay, I'll keep an eye out for your warehouse update! Thank you :-D

    The last bullet-point in the product description at the top of the page reads:
    • Full-size Backlit Keyboard with Numeric Pad; HP Imagepad; Ports: 1 USB 3.0 Type C; 2 USB 3.0 Type A; 1 HDMI; 1 headphone/microphone combo; 1 multi-format SD media card reader
    Amazon does a good job of hiding things in plain site ;-)

    I was even contemplating selling the laptop I just got to replace it with this laptop (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01N218SA6/) which does support DP-AltMode just so that my ASUS USB-C monitors would work with it... I'm still considering that. But a trade of monitors with you would be much more cost-effective for me at this point :)
     
  29. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    In that case might make sense to keep one for the future and trade one for now
     
  30. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan My only reason for switching laptops was for the monitors... so if you do have 2 to trade, then I wouldn't need to get the other laptop :) But if you only have 1, then I'll move forward with getting the other laptop (when I get the money lol) that would work with both monitors.
     
  31. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    ...or continue to wait for some solution that would make the monitors compatible with my laptop lol whichever of the the following comes first, I'll go with:
    1. Trade two monitors
      - OR -
    2. Compatibility solution with current laptop
      - OR -
    3. Money for the other laptop
    In regards to #2 on that list, you mentioned this: "As for UPD2018, using as external converter might not work as it does need SYNC clock"... what is SYNC clock? Can/does my laptop have it?
     
  32. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok I will look tonight, be warn, you might not able to daisy chain 2x USB-C monitor, you can do it with apple TB3 monitor but not USB-C

    That is why in my hp workstation laptop I use 2x USB-A and 1x USB-C monitor...

    On my Mac is different story as I am suing 4x apple TB3 Cinema Display in dasiy chain
     
  33. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan Ohhhhhhhhh.... now that's a problem! Thank you for pointing that out.

    The whole point in me getting TWO monitors was to work as two external displays for my laptop so that I'd have three screens to work with in total. That changes EVERYTHING if I can't use two USB-C monitors simultaneously.

    So, just to confirm: you're saying that 2 USBA/3.0 monitors CAN work simultaneously for what I'm trying to accomplish? If so, then my only option is to trade the monitors I have (seeing now that even getting the other laptop won't help me achieve my display goal anyway).

    If that's the case, I'm definitely looking forward to your update for the two 3.0 monitors from your warehouse! Thank you!!!
     
  34. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok I am trying to point out that u can use USB-C with USB-A ... USB-C will give you better performance as it rely on the GPU while USB-A is CPU bound..

    If u get a new laptop somewhere down the road , use USB-C with USB-A together...

    USB-A is cap at 30fps, USB-C is as fast as ur GPU can provide
     
  35. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan I'm so appreciative of your patience... I suppose I didn't get what you were trying to say, until now (I get it lol).

    That is excellent advice, now that I understand what you mean! Okay, it's all coming together for me now :-D lol

    So yes, I will be willing to trade 1 of my USB-C monitors for your USB3.0 monitor... and if you find another USB3.0 monitor in your warehouse... I'd be interested in buying that one from you (as I'm really trying to use 2 monitors with my current laptop now), if that's okay :)
     
  36. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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  37. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan That's wonderful! I'm glad you've been able to have success selling them.

    In your listings (http://www.ebay.com/sch/allenpan84/m.html), it's empty... so, how would I go about trading you for the monitor you know you have in stock and possibly buying from you a second monitor if you find one tonight at your warehouse?
     
  38. allenpan

    allenpan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Do you have heatwave? My heatwave is = allenpan

    I will let you know on my discovery tonight... we should do all this in PM not in thread to keep it clean
     
  39. DM7

    DM7 n00bie

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    allenpan I don't have a heatwave (never heard of it actually)... but yes, agreed (sorry, new to this forum-style messaging)... how would I PM you? If you can PM me, I can just reply to that and I won't have to post again in this main thread (sorry everyone else).
     
  40. karatekid430

    karatekid430 n00bie

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    Hello,

    Sorry I was not watching the forum. The XDA one emails me when somebody replies.

    I just received it. Okay. It works, but average.

    1. It works. Also FreeSync / Adaptive Sync works through it. Although my Surface Pro 4 was sending through the 3840x2160p 60Hz signal and there was a noticeable amount of noise on the screen, flashing pixels. The USB works. It talked to my Samsung Galaxy S8+ SM-G955F.
    - Could be that the card is not redriving the signal properly.
    - Could be that the total cable length is too long.
    - Could be the "15cm USB-C to DISPLAYPORT DP 4K Adapter + USBC Power Delivery MONITOR B3414" adapter from Ebay that I was using to go back from USB-C to DisplayPort (I don't yet own USB-C displays - I am preparing).
    - But the Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort cable that I was using (Surface Pro 4 -> Sunix UPD2018) was Samsung made, bundled with my U32E850R monitor, and it is immaculate. The DisplayPort to DisplayPort cable (Sunix UPD2018 -> U32E850R) might be Samsung made (it has similar markings) but seems to work well also.
    - Ironically, using HDMI from Sunix UPD2018 to U32E850R monitor, using the official Samsung Galaxy S8 USB-C to HDMI 3840x2160p 60Hz adapter, worked perfectly, as far as I could tell. Usually HDMI is the dodgy one.
    - Fun story, I am using my ITX computer, so I had to remove my AMD R9 Nano because there are no PCIe slots remaining, and the SFF-8643 was taken by the boot drive - so I could not hijack the PCIe from that. But with my Asus Maximus VIII Impact, I only have HDMI out. Hence why I was using my Surface Pro 4 to drive the Sunix UPD2018 DisplayPort.
    - But the Intel graphics from the board kept flashing the screen and after about five seconds going blank, so I had to unplug the HDMI, replug it, and quickly change the resolution to 1920x1080p to make it partially stable. I swear I am done with Intel. I only went with them over AMD FX because AMD only supported PCIe 2.0. But I loathe Intel. As soon as that AMD Ryzen ITX board comes out, I am selling the Intel garbage from my ITX PC and Linux server.

    2. No power delivery. I should not be surprised.
    3. Does not send DisplayPort to USB-C when not powered (again, no surprises).
    4. It does not work in reverse (tried Galaxy S8 sending video through it out to monitor, while being able to transfer files to the computer - no luck). After I tried that, it would not work again until I powered the computer off and on (restart did not help).
    5. Disappointed that it only is PCIe x1. Granted most of the cards are bottlenecked, but they should do what the high end controllers do with PCIe 3.0 x4. I think they wanted it to fit into people's computers that only have x1 slots - but they could have done something like this: http://amfeltec.com/products/pci-express-gen-3-carrier-board-for-4-m-2-ssd-modules/ where the PCIe blade can be swapped out for different lengths.
    6. I will order an adapter to plug Molex power cord into the PCIe plug to power it without a motherboard, but the cheapo sellers in China offer cheapo shipping and it will be ages. So I will wait until the 13th after my exams are done, and order the proper stuff from the USA.

    Anyway some issues I would like to solve: I want a USB monitor - for debugging my normally headless server, and if I bring my desktop places, for watching movies in bed with the Galaxy S8+ with the Bluetooth 5.0 for dual audio so two people can watch without cables, etc. But if I buy one that is not Type-C, then it will be obsolete already, and it will have horrendous DisplayLink chips. But if the Sunix UPD2018 is the only way to drive one for now with standard devices, how do I use it with all my computers?

    The other issue is, if I use it with my phone, it will slug the battery hard - and I cannot think of a way of charging it (aside from wireless charging) whilst outputting video. I have looked LONG AND HARD for an adapter which goes from USB-C 10Gbps -> USB-C PD and USB-C 10Gbps with alt-mode pass through. They do not exist. It is sad how slow people are to respond to change. I am going out of my way to embrace the future, and am growing increasingly frustrated that I cannot find what I am looking for.

    The only candidate is the Orico DBH1, but I am not certain if it does what it sounds like it does, or if it supports 3840x2160p 60Hz (most only support 3840x2160p 30Hz). Actually I just realised, it would not work. Although it has a USB-C port for pass through with video, that port also appears to be the charging port. I cannot win.

    Also, I bought the Asus UPD 3.1 Panel (USB-C front panel) - and it works as a standalone 100W charger. But it turns out, it seems like the PCIe x1 slot is just a dummy, for people who want to mount it in a slot, instead of the 5.25" optical bay. You still need the SATA Express connection to the motherboard - but what if you do not have the port on the motherboard? MSI MS-4199 is an adapter from M.2 but impossible to obtain. Asus kinda messed it up - the drive end of the SATA Express drive is supposed to be like the Intel 750 SSD port - and I even have a spare cable for SFF-8639.

    I don't know if hardforum.com has "friends" or not, but people who are interested in this stuff should PM me or "add" me if such thing exists - I would love to keep communicating.

    I will update you when I know if this adapter can be used as a standalone DisplayPort to USB-C converter when powered with an adapter. If it works, then you could just mount it in a little box with a Molex or something on the side, and use it as an adapter, instead of inside the PC.