[???] use USB C monitor without USB C?

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by allenpan, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. karatekid430

    karatekid430 n00b

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    Guys, a while ago the first true solution has come out - but I have been too busy and forgot to report it.
    https://buywacom.com.au/wacom-link.html
    Combines DisplayPort and USB into USB-C with alt-mode (to use the Wacom MobileStudio Pro as a monitor / drawing tablet for a computer).
    This video seems to demonstrate it:
    By the way, I believe that every laptop and smartphone with USB-C should be able to accept DisplayPort input to the internal display (either internal display needs to have multiple inputs, or the two will be switched to one input with a mux).
    The only thing that is unclear is power delivery. The Asus Zenscreen only powers from the same USB-C port as the video, and this adapter may or may not deliver any power from the USB-A port to the USB-C port.
    Assuming that the Zenscreen only needs bus power (5V@3A) which is highly likely, as extremely few laptops (and even desktops) have higher power delivery than this, you could take a USB-C to USB-C cable and shave the outer plastic off the cable, carefully retrieve the voltage lines and wire in another power source.
    But the danger of this is if the cable is connected to two PD devices which negotiate higher voltage, which would then fry the device you spliced in. You would have to sever the CC lines for this, which might then affect orientation detection.
    The only proper way to do it would be with a proper device with the mux to deal with plug orientation, and act as a PD source itself. But that is well out of reach of most individuals. I know there are people who are capable, like the person who sells the USB PD Sink Buddy https://hackaday.io/project/20424-pd-buddy-sink so perhaps send him a message and tell him you would pay if he made a device.
    A device with 4x USB-C female ports, which passes data and alternate modes between two of the ports, but provides PD to each separately through their corresponding PD USB-C port (so each can receive 100W if you have two 100W USB-C chargers).
    Which by the way, the Wacom MobileStudio Pro 100W USB-C charger is the first and only true 100W USB-C charger that I know of, that serves no function other than as an AC adapter.
    https://buywacom.com.au/products/ac...power/power-adapter-for-mobilestudio-pro.html

    Cheers for discussing this stuff, it is so good. And I wish there were more good forum topics about this.
     
  2. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    You have been too busy to read this thread which is only 4 pages long. The Wacom Link was discussed on page 3. It only works with the Wacom MobileStudio Pro. It doesn't work with other USB-C devices.

    I don't think there's any USB-C device that has a USB-C port that can be used for both input and output. This might be possible with Thunderbolt 3 USB-C ports but only if the computer has firmware to enable it (which doesn't exist - Apple did it with some of their Thunderbolt 2 iMacs; actually, Apple did it with some of their DisplayPort only iMacs too).

    I agree. More info: The Asus Zenscreen only requires about 8W according to their specs but that's more than a USB 3.0 type-A port usually puts out (900mA 5V 4.5W). Most (all?) computers won't supply power greater than the minimum required for the port type (no Battery Charging (BC) or Power Delivery (PD) from the computer, only to the computer). The Wacom MobileStudio Pro is powered by it's battery.

    That would be cool. He could base the design on the Cypress CCG4 Evaluation Kit (discussed on page 3; the Sunix UPD2018 also uses the CCG4).

    Very nice. I have't seen anything more powerful than 85W before, but their specs say it's only compatible with the Wacom MobileStudio Pro. People have tried it successfully with a Surface Pro so I guess the Wacom power adapter is not as useless as the Wacom Link. There's a list of certified power bricks at http://www.usb.org/kcompliance/view/CertifiedUSBPowerBricks.pdf, but the max are 80W, 85W, 90W.
     
  3. karatekid430

    karatekid430 n00b

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    Sorry, my bad. Although I didn't think most people would read whole threads - often they are disjointed and have no continuity.
     
  4. Halfdan

    Halfdan n00b

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    I read this whole thread and am not sure if I understood everything correctly. I want to connect an LG ultrafine 5K display to my ITX PC (Sandy bridge). As I understand I will need the following main parts (excluding additional necessary cables):

    1. "IT-GO" PCI-e x16 Riser (QTY: 1) (or an equivalent 2x PCIEx 16 riser card)
    2. Gigabyte GC-Alpine Ridge (QTY: 1)

    Below is an image of how the above parts will have to be connected:

    https://imgur.com/a/ag3bDHF

    The red part I'm not sure about if it is necessary, since DM7 didn't use this for 2x 4K connection but someone else did say (joevt ?) that the Gigabyte card won't be recognized if the USB to PCIEx1 card isn't inserted into a PCIE port at power up when using thunderbolt port. Also I assume some things won't work well (brightness control?) with this setup as I'm leaving out the thunderbolt header connection?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  5. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    The USB connection was necessary with the GC-ALPINE RIDGE with a single slot PCIe riser that I tried (to start DisplayPort to Thunderbolt/USB-C conversion). A USB connection will not enable other functionality of the card (hot swap, PCIe tunneling, USB controller) because we don't have the software to enable those functions (or they can't be enabled).

    A person has reported that a different Thunderbolt 3 add-in card did work with a single slot PCIe riser without the USB connection.

    Two DisplayPort connections are required to get 5K on the LG 5K display. The GC-ALPINE RIDGE comes with two short DisplayPort to mini DisplayPort cables. You may want to buy two longer cables.

    Without PCIe tunneling, you can't use functions of the LG display that require that (audio, camera, USB ports, brightness control).

    You may be able to use a app that can send DDC/CI commands over DisplayPort to control brightness. Someone reported that this works, but the DDC/CI of the LG display is kind of broken (doesn't report current brightness value correctly).
    https://apple.stackexchange.com/que...-party-displays-via-apples-thunderbolt-to-dvi
    https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/gc-alpine-ridge-in-hands.206821/page-26#post-1790605
     
    Halfdan likes this.
  6. jamislike

    jamislike n00b

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    I finally found a solution to get both DisplayPort and USB working, was quite expensive though.

    I went ahead and bought the CY4541 EZ-PD CCG4 Evaluation Kit and it works perfectly. Cost me around the £230 mark, but it does have 2 usb-c sockets so you can drive two of them as i intend to do, you have to build your own enclosure to put it in however. But i can now connect displayport and usb to any machine and use the UltraFine 4K with all it's features. Here is a video :-



     
  7. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    "Found" is not exactly the right word, since the CCG4 Evaluation Kit solution has been discussed a few times in this thread. Maybe "tried" is a better word, unless you mean that you found a seller of the evaluation kit. Anyway, I'm glad someone tried it successfully. It seems much larger than it needs to be. I suppose that's because it does a lot more than we need it to do.

    There might be another solution. The GC-TITAN RIDGE. It is similar to the GC-ALPINE RIDGE except for the following:
    1) It supports DisplayPort 1.4 instead of just DisplayPort 1.2. The LG Ultrafine 4K only needs DisplayPort 1.2 max.
    2) It supports power delivery up to 100W (optional, requires two 6-pin power supply connections). I don't know what would require more than the usual amount of power except maybe the ability to charge a laptop?
    3) USB 2.0 comes from an external controller. This is strange since the GC-ALPINE RIDGE used the Thunderbolt chip for both USB 2.0 and 3.1 gen 2.

    It is feature #3 that might allow getting both DisplayPort and USB to the LG UltraFine 4K display. USB will continue to be unusable for USB-C displays or docks that use two lanes of DisplayPort with USB 3.x. I haven't tried this configuration. It will work only if the GC-TITAN RIDGE allows the USB 2.0 passthrough without a PCIe connection to the computer (for the USB 3.x controller to function).

    I've done some testing of the GC-TITAN RIDGE in a Mac Pro 2008 and also in a Sonnet Echo Express III-D connected to a MacBook Pro 2015. USB 3.1 gen 2 and USB 2.0 worked in both setups.
     
  8. CoreStoffer

    CoreStoffer Limp Gawd

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    I finally just gave up: Sold the LG Ultrafine 5K and bought a BenQ SW271 instead. The LG 5K obviously worked great with my MacBook Pro 2016, but I have to hook the monitor up to a windows build soonish. Also, the BenQ SW271 is probably a better fit for my work after all.
     
  9. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    This appears to be your first post in this thread - It might be helpful to describe your attempt even if it was a failure and you don't want to try again. What computer and method of connection did you try? Why would you go from 5K down to 4K? The only problem with the LG 5K is the Thunderbolt input requirement which limits compatibility, so the logical alternative would be a 5K solution that doesn't require Thunderbolt. Did you decide you don't need the extra pixels, or that dual link DisplayPort 1.2 5K and DisplayPort 1.4 5K had their own compatibility issues?
     
  10. CoreStoffer

    CoreStoffer Limp Gawd

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    Long story short: To much hassle to use the GC-ALPINE RIDGE workaround on either a PC or HackIntosh. In addition, the BenQ SW271 is a bit better suited to photography since to supports AdobeRGB and have hardware color calibration. I was hoping that there would be some native USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 support for 5K out of a GPU, but the demand is not there outside Mac's.
     
  11. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    True. Only the BlackMagic eGPU has a Thunderbolt connection to the GPU (ignoring GPUs inside a laptop or desktop) but the GPU is not upgradable and the BlackMagic eGPU requires a Thunderbolt connection to the computer anyway.
     
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  12. jamislike

    jamislike n00b

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    Sorry for my incorrect usage of 'found', it was me who originally suggested and found this board earlier in this thread, I thought it could be a viable option to solve the USB-C Monitor issue, I just wanted to report back on my progress in case it would be of some use to someone else in my position (Ultrafine 4k + does not have a pci-e slot to spare). Glad you found another solution that works for you, sounds very promising!!
     
  13. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    You're right. You did first mention the CCG4 evaluation kit in this thread. But in that same post you linked a thread which mentioned the CCG1 development kit nearly a year earlier and the CCG4 chip (not evaluation/development kit). That means you found the CCG4 evaluation kit back in April and finally proved it to be a solution this month. A very good find. As for my solution with the GC-TITAN RIDGE, I have not tried that with a USB-C device that is both USB and DisplayPort. Someone has gotten one LG Ultrafine 4K working with it but could not get two working - and I don't know if they got USB working with it (since USB 2.0 requires separate connections).
     
  14. TiltError

    TiltError n00b

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    This thread is fantastic. I have been monitoring it for almost a year.

    I have built a portable workstation/gaming desktop pc using the Node 202 case and two Asus MB169C+ USB C monitors. After long hours googling and with the help of this thread, I have managed to get these monitors working in my setup using the add-in card from Gigabyte (GC Alpine Ridge). As mentioned earlier this card only need power to work for my intentions not an actual PCI Express port. As my only PCI express port is occupied by the graphics card, I am using an regular pcie riser that is only connected to molex power and not to an actual pcie port. This is working without issues.

    So finally to my question: Im looking to make this setup as portable as possible. The riser and add in card is now outside my case and is quite bulky. Do anybody know some kind of adapter/cable smaller/more compact than my current riser that can power a pcie card from molex power?

    My current pcie riser: https://www.gearbest.com/cables-con...nrm9X6FlctTXAiWoMvLfo-zsKeXEtqxxoClasQAvD_BwE

    Fun fact: The GC Alpine Ridge provide enough power to charge a Microsoft Surface Go and fast charge mobile phones. You should also be able to get this working on any laptop with displayport by getting a molex power adapter like this one: https://www.quietpc.com/qpc-ac-power-yh-3018 (Not testet).

    If anyone plan to do this with a system without display port output it will not work. The GC Alpine ridge will only accept true displayport signals (No hdmi to displayport adapter or similar).

    I have attached some images. This whole system can fit in a bag. The cards outside of the case will be put inside a box later, but for now they are out in the open.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  15. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    The risers I used wouldn't allow DisplayPort to USB-C conversion to start unless the riser was connected at least momentarily to a PCIe slot. At the time, I was using GC-ALPINE RIDGE (rev 1.0). Are you using GC-ALPINE RIDGE (rev 2.0)? I have not redone the tests with the GC-TITAN RIDGE.

    The riser I tried was this one:
    https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=1W7-005H-00013


    The IT-GO ADP-099-31 has the same bulkiness (because it is also x16) but it comes with an enclosure which makes things at least neater, and a barrel plug power supply is easier to connect than a molex power supply.

    I have an M.2 to PCIe x4 adapter. The length is much shorter because it's x4. I don't know if it will work without an M.2 connection (possibly required for 3.3V?). I'll test it later today. You would probably want a custom built box.
    https://www.microsatacables.com/pci-e-1x-4x-card-to-m-2-m-key-4-lane-pcie-slot-adapter

    I haven't tested charging. The GC-ALPINE RIDGE support page says it supports 5V/3A (15W) and 12V/3A (36W). I'm not sure how that works if a PCIe x4 slot is supposed to only support 25W. If it expects a 75W slot (like a graphics card), does it properly reduce capabilities if the slot only provides 25W? Your power supply is 12V/2A (24W) but also has 5V/2A (10W). Maybe that means it can do 34W?

    I'm not sure why a HDMI to DisplayPort adapter wouldn't work. I have a few that I can test.
     
  16. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    I tested the M.2 adapter and retested the x16 riser. Both worked with the GC-ALPINE RIDGE (rev 1.0) (strange, my previous riser test was not successful). Neither worked with the GC-TITAN RIDGE. Both the GC-TITAN RIDGE and GC-ALPINE RIDGE worked in the IT-GO ADP-099-31. These tests were with no connection to a computer's PCIe or M.2 slot.
    GC-ALPINE RIDGE in M.2.JPG GC-TITAN and ALPINE RIDGE in IT-GO with M.2 to x4 and x1 to x16 riser.JPG
    You might be right. I couldn't get my HDMI 2.0 to DisplayPort 1.2 adapter to work with the GC-ALPINE RIDGE.
     
  17. TiltError

    TiltError n00b

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    Thank you for testing the M.2 adapter! This is exactly what I am looking for. I will probably get a M.2 adapter and make my own enclosure with some velcro to stick to the back of my pc case.

    Where do you get the molex power from? Maybe the GC-TITAN RIDGE is not working due to not enough power?

    I initially thought my GC-Alpine Ridge was broken because I only got one USB C output working. However it turns out if i want both ports working I need to power the card with only one monitor connected to port number 2, then connect the other monitor to port number 1 after boot. If not, port number 2 wont work at all (no power, no display signals). Port number 1 always seems to work. I have testet this in an internal PCIe x16 and with the riser not connected to PCIe and it behaves exactly the same. After I have booted the system in this order i can disconnect and reconnect the ports in any order and they will both work.

    Maybe it is something like this you experienced earlier in your testing?

    I dont know if I have rev 1.0 or 2.0. I dont have the retail package at hand and cant find the number on the card.

    I have to clarify that I am not using the molex power adapter that I linked earlier. I am using molex power from my internal PSU. There seems to be plenty of power for the GC-Alpine Ridge. I can for example power one monitor and at the same time charge my Microsoft Surface Go at speeds exceeding the original wall charger (Original charger 15V/1.6A vs Alpine Ridge 12V/3A).
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  18. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    Maybe buy two and try to cut off the extra 10 mm that sticks out behind the GC-ALPINE RIDGE on one of them so your custom case can be that much smaller.

    The PCIe backplate of the GC-ALPINE RIDGE extends approximately 12 mm below the M.2 adapter. You can put your power connector in this space below the M.2 adapter. You can turn the 80mm M.2 into a 60mm M.2 by breaking off the extra 20mm if you want to use that room for a side power connector. It looks like the M.2 adapter does not require 5V, so you might consider using a barrel power connector instead which is much easier to connect than molex and might take less space. Create your own barrel to floppy power cable.
    https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=2.1mm+x+5.5mm+panel

    There are many 12V power supplies with a barrel connector. I have some for various external hard drives, Thunderbolt docks and peripherals, and USB hubs. For example, the Anker USB 3.0 SuperSpeed 10-Port Hub comes with a 12V/5A power supply.

    It's a similar molex power supply than the one you linked.
    https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123309

    Maybe. There's some flakiness involved but I would not have expected that from an internal PCIe x16 slot.

    I asked because you got yours to work in a riser and I didn't, but now I did so it probably doesn't seem to matter.

    It's not possible for the GC-ALPINE RIDGE to tell the difference where the power is coming from. I assume/hope the power supply would just stop if there wasn't enough power.
     
  19. chithanh

    chithanh Gawd

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    Did anyone here try the Moshi USB-C to DisplayPort cable yet? It claims to be bi-directional, so it ought to work. If it works it is the least expensive option by a fair margin.
     
  20. FloMac

    FloMac n00b

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    I just tried it. Together with an USB 2 into USB-C injection cable. I tested my self-made cable putting it in between the LG UltraFine 4k and the USB cable to the MacBook while connecting the USB 2.0 A cabled via my Dock. This way the UltraFine worked, fine. However upon replacing the USB-C cable with the Moshi one the monitor refused to do anything at all although its' internal HUB and the connected disk drive showed up in the system.

    IMG_7470.jpg

    To resume: The Moshi bi-directional DisplayPort cable does not work with the LG UltraFine.
     
  21. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    It is unclear to me from the picture how that cable works. Are those USB-C female or male connectors? Is the USB 2.0 connected to only one of those connectors or both? What other cable or whatever is used to connect this to the MacBook. What MacBook are you using?

    I guess the Moshi cable doesn't work with the LG UltraFine 4K because the cable is not bi-directional or because it doesn't have USB? The Moshi cable might work (if it's bidirectional) with the LG 34WK95U-W because there is a separate USB input?
     
  22. FloMac

    FloMac n00b

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    The frontmost plug is a male one, while the other one is female.


    It's only connected upstream -> to the male plug (to avoid struggles) – Also, compliant with the USB-C specification, it is only connected to one pair of D+, D- lanes (A-Side, although it does not really matter).


    Additionally I'm using the mentioned Moshi-Cable, which is actually the only bi-directional one, that I'm aware of. So the non-working connection looks like this:
    • MacBook Pro (15", 2017) -->
    • Aorus Gaming Box (refitted with AMD RX Vega 56 nano) -->
    • Moshi bi-directional USB-C – DP-cable -->
    • custom passive USB-C PCB (which also connects to the MacBook/Gaming Box via USB-A) -->
    • LG Ultrafine 4k

    However I confirmed, that my custom USB-cable works like so:
    • MacBook Pro (15", 2017) -->
    • LG Ultrafine 4k OEM USB-C cable -->
    • custom passive USB-C PCB (which also connects to the MacBook "directly" via USB-A) -->
    • LG Ultrafine 4k


    Nope.


    Possibly…? Though this has nothing to do with the additional USB, but rather with how the hardware works internally. No way to test.


    BTW.: My custom cable actually does exactly the same as the modded cable on one of the previous pages, only omitting the need to cut one of those unproportionally expansive USB-C cables.
     
  23. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    The Moshi cable seems kind of useless in the DisplayPort to USB-C direction if every USB-C display needs a USB connection to also exist in the USB-C cable. It seems that the LG 34WK95U-W has the same problem as the LG UltraFine 4K even with its ability to choose a different USB input.

    Maybe Apple will release a Thunderbolt display where the Moshi cable can be used (for non-Thunderbolt computers).
     
  24. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    The M.2 to PCIe x4 adapter uses a "1084-33" voltage regulator. It uses 5V to generate the 3.3V required by the PCIe x4 slot. 12V is used directly by the PCIe x4 slot.
     
  25. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    Instead of making your own cable, there is one from made by Huawei for the Huawei VR 2
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-H...le-DP1-2-USB2-0-to-Type-C-Cable-/253947777674

    The cable is only good for four lane DisplayPort 1.2 with USB 2.0 over USB-C devices like the LG UltraFine 4K. It is not good for devices that use two lane DisplayPort 1.2 with USB 3.0 (USB-C docks and some lower resolution USB-C displays) or Thunderbolt.
     
  26. zambetti

    zambetti n00b

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    Just stumbled on this great thread, been looking to connect an Ultrafine 4K to DisplayPort.

    Perhaps this board with USB power injection might suffice as a compact solution to drive the Ultrafine 4K?
    http://www.ti.com/tool/TIDA-01620
    "Supports VESA DisplayPort Alt Mode to USB-C"

    Also found this promising cable (below) and wrote to the supplier, but I haven't found a distributor yet.
    http://www.simya-tech.com/vr-cable/simya-custom-dp-usb-type-c-ultra-slim-coaxial.html#

    In the meantime, I'll follow the suggestion above and give the Huawei cable a shot, fingers crossed.
     
  27. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    The TIDA doesn't seem much different than the Moshi bi-directional cable. Probably not sufficient (it doesn't have USB for one thing).

    The Simya cable looks like the Huawei cable. I think they're both from China so either one will take a few weeks to ship to North America.
     
  28. chx

    chx Gawd

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  29. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    Good find on that USB-C adapter. Would be interesting to compare with the Moshi bi-directional DisplayPort 1.4 to USB-C cable and the Huawei VR 2 cable. If that adapter is using the Cypress chipset, then why doesn't it include the USB input?

    People have been able to use the Moshi cable to get 4K with the newly released LG UltraFine 5K display (the display accepts both USB-C (4K DisplayPort Alt Mode) and Thunderbolt (dual link DisplayPort 1.2) input).
    The Huawei VR2 also includes USB 2.0 making it a better solution for the LG UltraFine 4K (the Moshi doesn't work) and probably the new USB-C capable LG UltraFine 5K.

    HDMI 2.0 to DisplayPort adapters are available but cost $200, much more than the HDMI 1.4 to DisplayPort adapters. There's a discussion at https://insights.club-3d.com/thread/hdmi-2-0-to-displayport-1-2-2/6/
     
  30. chx

    chx Gawd

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    Where do you get the cable alone?
     
  31. joevt

    joevt n00b

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    I got my Huawei VR 2 cable from eBay. Do a google search for Huawei VR 2 cable.