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Upgrading to an X2, futureproof?

D

digitcon

n00b
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
31
I need the most futureproof for my money. Am currently running a AthlonXP 2400+ 266FSB. Im halfway to getting my wife to agree to a massive upgrade to a X2 4200+. Im doing this by telling her that I would not need another major upgrade for 3 or more years in the mobo/cpu dept. I thought I had it down pat, but now im seeing yet another socket change coming down the line. Is 939 already outta legs? Can i still legitimately sell her on the Dual Core stuff as being a long term upgrade? Help me out here fellas.
-J
 
It really depends on what you use your computer for. Your existing rig would be considered "futureproof" if you are a typical home user. But if you are a reasonable power-user, I would say the 4200+ provides more in terms of future performance. Although I wouldn't exactly call it more futureproff for the money.

By the way, nothing is futureproof. Three years ago the first Thorougbred 2200+ was coming out and Intel was at 2.53ghz. Venture into a CPU benchmark database and tell me how that stacks up to a 2.4ghz A64 in the apps you use.
 
And why are you trying to "sell" your wife on anything? The man is the head of the house. You shouldn't have to convince your wife to let you spend your money....Unless you plan on doing this upgrade with her money, then that's a whole nother story. Anyways, as far as gaming PCs go, there's just so such thing as "futureproof" upgrades. Gaming PCs just have to be upgraded every couple years or so.
 
the@ntipop said:
By the way, nothing is futureproof.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's the usual word around here. But you can reasonably say that some parts are more future-proof than others. In this vein, I'd say a dual-core is very future-proof at the moment, which is partly why I'm aligning my next build with the coming model from AMD. Given how I've done with my previous rigs, I don't see a problem with the 939 going obsolete; I'm not going to upgrade the processor anyway. The graphics is another bit, and I'm sure PCIe 16x will do the job for a long while.

AMD is releasing their X2 3800+ soon, your wife would probably approve of the reduced price. :)
 
FoxhoundOp said:
And why are you trying to "sell" your wife on anything? The man is the head of the house. You shouldn't have to convince your wife to let you spend your money....Unless you plan on doing this upgrade with her money, then that's a whole nother story. Anyways, as far as gaming PCs go, there's just so such thing as "futureproof" upgrades. Gaming PCs just have to be upgraded every couple years or so.
Click to expand...
Man is the head of the household. How many married well-off urban couples do you personally know that can get by just great financially with just the man working and still able to afford everything they desire? LOL. How archaic is that thinking in todays society with todays economy? Did it ever occur to you that maybe they have a truly trusting and sharing relationship that is 50/50 for decision making? I respect my girlfriend, and I've proven to her many times that she has a decision making voice in our relationship and I'm not so much into being a control freak. (If you were being serious about your post... I feel sorry for you).

OP: I'd say wait it out a while. Suggestion: Draw up a max cost budget for each component (a checklist for mobo, vid card, psu, etc if you will) and set a timeline/deadline to meet the financial demand it'll cost, then start saving cash. If a deal comes up, like a big instant rebate on a mobo or vid card you want, then that's an item to check off. AMD will be releasing the 3800+ dual core soon for a reasonable AMD dual core price, and who knows what after that. And prices will only come down.
 
My bit: get the 4400+. More speed for slightly more money. The extra 1MB cache will really help in some situations.
 
Thanks for the tips on waiting at least for the 3800 to drop before making a decision. Sounds like a better deal to me too. I know gaming rigs are never truly 'futureproof' but im used to doing an upgrade only once every 3 years or so. So I wanted to know if the CPU would still have legs in 3 years time. I understand that in 3 years i will have to get both a new mobo and a new CPU, thats fine. I just dont want to be chugging along in 2 years and having to explain why im complaining all the time about my PC games and lag. If going for a dual core will give me more chance at putting off an upgrade, thats what im looking for. We just got married so we have a large sum of money and if I upgrade now, i wont need to in a year, when we wont have the money to anyway. And yes, im not neo-cave dude knuckle dragger, we share all the money that comes into the house so its my responsibility to fully explain things to her and make sure she can make an informed decision about this too. I dont know anyone who can get by on a single income these days anyway.
Thanks again
 
X2 is pretty futureproof, DDR2 won't get super duper fast for a while.
 
Get the X2, 3 years is a little bit long I would say an X2 will remain in the top end range (dropping from high top end to low top end) for a good 1-2 years. Nonetheless, it's gonna last you for 3 years without problems.
 
Congratulations to you and your wife for your marriage. Enjoy the new X2 when you get it! :D

If you plan on selling your old parts after you build the new system, there's always the for sale subforum here or eBay. Might be a great move for recouping some of the investment towards new goods.


[edit]:
If you have thought about it, could you list all the parts you're thinking of buying for the upgrade? Thanks.
 
DejaWiz said:
Congratulations to you and your wife for your marriage. Enjoy the new X2 when you get it! :D

If you plan on selling your old parts after you build the new system, there's always the for sale subforum here or eBay. Might be a great move for recouping some of the investment towards new goods.


[edit]:
If you have thought about it, could you list all the parts you're thinking of buying for the upgrade? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help and the grats :)
Well heres what im thinking of for the total upgrade, so as not to have to rip apart my rig 3 times, im getting a case too.
Antec SuperLANboy Case
Asus A8N-SLi- Motherboard
1Gb Corsair TwinX
XFX Geforce 6600GT
Then theres my dilemma. Do i go balls to the wall now, and get a
AMD Athlon64 X2 4200+
Then i wont need any upgrade for 3 or so years but im paying over$500 for the CPU
Or, i save some money and get a
AMD Athlon64 3000+
now and upgrade to a dual core in a year or so when the X2s could be way cheaper.
Also note, i wouldnt mind waiting a few weeks and picking up the 3800+ instead of the 4200+. So lemme know.
-J
 
Man by all means wait if it's gonna be cheaper for u having more money is always a plus :D Also, the 3000+ Venice core supposedly is the best offer out ther right now in terms of bang for the buck it's supposed to overclock like a beast too.
 
If your going to go with the a8n-sli, you should consider the premium or deluxe, more stuff that way for a bit more dollars. On the link (for monarch) they sell it for $165 which is only 25 dollars more. Newegg is selling it for $160.
 
Well i would only really be saving money by getting the 3000+ if the X2's drop in price by like 1/2 in the next 1-2 years. Heres how i do my pseudo-math.
3000+ = $150 now. X2 4200+ = $530 now.

X2 line in 1-2 years = ???
guesstimate is maybe $250-300?
If so i pay less for a 3000 now and X2 later ($450 max) than if i got a X2 now ($530ish)
saved money in long run and about $400 right now.

Anyway, please feel free to abuse my logic.
And pls throw me a link to OCing the 3000+ I would be interested in seeing how easy it is and how far it can go. Venice core is the Rev E?

-J
 
Ah as well if anyone can answer. I still have IDE HDD's that im carrying over to the new rig. Will the A8N Sli boards support 2 PATA and still let me upgrade to SATA later?
Thanks!
-J
 
yes IDE still exists on most/all boards (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this board).

Here's what you do, as buying a X2 is a stupid future proofing decision, unless you really don't ever want to upgrade the CPU again:

Buy a cheaper 3200+, or 3000+ (better $$), either OC it, or don't. OC'ing will hold you off much longer until the next upgrade. Seeing as how you only spent $120-$180 on the CPU, you can wait 3-6 months until the X2 drops in price more, and optimizations start to take hold to a greater degree. You can probably get the 3200+ and a X2 (3-6 months later) for the same price as 1 X2 now. Odds are you will be able to buy into a higher frequency/cache X2 as well, in addition if you were to sell the old CPU, you could recover another $80-$120. Given that the X2 939 would be a simple drop in upgrade, and with the new socket coming out Q1 06, prices should be low, and your cost of upgrading will be limited to the CPU.
 
Thanks for the input.
I had myself going along the same line of thought as you, and reading that post pretty much cemented me into getting the 3000+ now and seeing how long i can get outta that, maybe a full year until i do a drop in upgrade of a hopefully then much cheaper top line X2. Also, i think picking up a SLi mobo now will make it hopefully cheaper and easier to get more out of this rig by just dropping in a second vid card. Now i need to hit the vid card forums to see what type of performance upgrade getting a second 6600Gt would be. :) :)
Feel free to continue the discussion, but i think im at a good place with the upgrade. And the lower cost will almost definitely make this thing possible in the next few weeks.
Thanks everyone

-J
 
honestly, 9 times out of 10, buying a "newer gen" card, and selling the old one, will offer better price/performance than dropping in a new card for SLI. However, the option isn't expensive, and I'd say going SLI on the mobo couldn't hurt much. Do you currently have a PCI-E 6600GT, or is that the card you were looking at getting? If the latter, I would say go with something a tad bit more beefy, even if it doesn't offer SLI (such as ATI). If you do go ATI, you can drop the SLI option, and save ~$20.
 
digitcon said:
Well heres what im thinking of for the total upgrade, so as not to have to rip apart my rig 3 times, im getting a case too. -J
Click to expand...
Good choice on the case! I've read many, many, many good reviews on the net and lots of praise from hardforum members that have them.

What are your thoughts on the following?

MOTHERBOARD:
EPoX EP-9NPA+ SLI -A little cheaper. Has received good reviews and quite oc'able.
The Asus board you chose is supposedly a good one (I don't have direct experience with that particular model).

MEMORY:
Patriot 2x1GB PC3200 3-3-3-7-1T -2GB might be a better choice today, unless you want to throw in another 2x512 set to populate all the dimm slots in the future. If so, then what you originally chose is good stuff.

VIDEO CARD:
Awesome find! Great price! Might want to check eBay if you're into that - I got a brand new eVGA 6600GT PCI-e for $122 (sometimes ya just get lucky). Could wait for the 7800GT to be released and see what happens to prices of 6600GT and regular 6800.

CPU:
3000+ Venice Retail Box
3200+ Venice Retail Box -10x multiplier will help in oc'ing, if that's what you're gonna do.
Going single core now might be more economically feasible for when the price of current dual cores drop.

A second 6600GT would be almost the equivalent of running a single 6800GT (single Ultra in some rare cases). ...my plan of action, as well.
 
I was looking to move from my Radeon 9800Pro to the PCI-e interface. Since i was getting a new mobo i thought doing the switch to PCIe now would save me from doing the (for me) dreaded mobo upgrade for longer. The 6600GT looked to be good bang for buck, but im willing to shop around for a better vid card. I just want a nice mid range PCIe card that will not take me to the bank. Im already dropping like $700 for the total upgrade.

-J
 
mikelz85 said:
honestly, 9 times out of 10, buying a "newer gen" card, and selling the old one, will offer better price/performance than dropping in a new card for SLI. However, the option isn't expensive, and I'd say going SLI on the mobo couldn't hurt much. Do you currently have a PCI-E 6600GT, or is that the card you were looking at getting? If the latter, I would say go with something a tad bit more beefy, even if it doesn't offer SLI (such as ATI). If you do go ATI, you can drop the SLI option, and save ~$20.
Click to expand...
My vote goes for the nVidia cards because of the features they have for the money vs what ATI doesn't have and will finally bring with R520 and Crossfire, and that includes the ability to throw in a second one simultaneously. nVidia has the advantage right now for futureproofing as much as possible.
 
features? like what?

The middle end $200+ range cards are pretty much the same to me. I go for raw price performance. There are plenty cases where by the time the must have features are actually used in a game, you'll be uprading to a new card. They both have decent capabilities, and aren't much different. Only price/performance matters to me! Of course if there was something so major that it factored into the "performance" end of it (I'll lump in IQ here), I'd factor that as well, but I honestly don't see anything either card offers as a "must have feature" that the other doesn't. Of course I'm talking x800pro/xl/xt vs. 6800nu/gt/ut

And again, SLI as future proof doesn't make a ton of sense. Enough to drop $20, but not enough to swing me one way or the other on an actual video card.

Given your pricerange, your best bet will be the x800xl (unless PCI-E 6800gts have dropped a ton in price recently). It can be had for ~$250 (less on refurb/used, maybe still less), and offers the best price/performance. Of course a 6800GT is ok, but that's starting to push into "might as well have gone 7800gt" range.

Out of curiosity, what exactly are you budgeting for that runs $700? With that sort of cash, most of the money is best spent on the GPU, then the CPU/mobo, ram should be a last concern (though 2x512 twinmos SP can be had for $100 shipped if you want killer overclocking ram, even though the perf. boost isn't much on a A64 from fast ram) sized at 1gb is fine. Buy in pairs though.
 
digitcon said:
And pls throw me a link to OCing the 3000+ I would be interested in seeing how easy it is and how far it can go. Venice core is the Rev E?

-J
Click to expand...
Yes, the Venice is a Rev. E core.

Overclocking:
http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMjU1

I've got mine clocked at 268x9= 2.4GHz without bumping up the core voltage. A 3:4 mem divider (150MHz) yields 201Mhz for my RAM (4x512 Kingmax cheap stuff). Some have gotten theirs in the 2.7-2.9 range with the right motherboard, memory, hsf or H2O, and power supply. My Gigabyte board won't push past 280fsb without upping the vcore (which I refuse to do), and it's not 100% stable at that speed, so I backed down to my current 268fsb. A free 33% boost in clock speed. Equal to a 3800+. I'll take it!
 
mikelz85 said:
features? like what?
Click to expand...
Features like SM3.0, HDR, and SLI of course! ;)

True what you said, the extra features are not in widespread use yet, but there are some games out now that can actually use this technology. I have a 6600GT that runs SCCT at 1024x768, 2xAA, 4xAF, SM3.0, and Soft Shadows fast and smooth as silk.

And true, also, that the X800XL has a better price/performance ratio, but I humbly feel that the 6600GT/6800/6800GT has got ATI trumped in the price/features ratio despite a little less performance.

It's a flip of the coin for some, and preference for many others. I personally don't feel SLI is a gimmick or consumer trap, as it's actually a useable technology that yields a benefit.

1st 6600GT = $160 now (has all those nice features ATI lacks, if that matters to the buyer)
2nd 6600GT = $160 (probably much less in the future when it's time for a 2nd)

2 6600GT's in SLI = approx 6800GT/Ultra or X800XL/XT performance.

1 6800GT = $325+ now. Big investment at once.
1 6800Ultra = $470+ now. Bigger investment at once.

1 X800XL = $280+. Still a big investment at once.

To me, this clearly indicates that the 1 6600GT now, 1 6600GT later method is affordable and feasible. And if it's decided to get rid of the 1 6600GT in favor for a newer gen card instead of adding a 2nd because games need something with newer features/more performance, then you're only out $160 instead of almost double that.

It's kind of like saving money on a single core 3000+ Venice cpu now instead of straining your budget from dumping extra cash into a fast intel or a dual core now. The single core AMD isn't the fastest, but it has the features (processing power and oc'ability) to damn near keep up with the pricey intel and dual core running current apps and games. And when it's time to upgrade to a multi-core, who knows what cool new stuff AMD will throw out to market?!
 
DejaWiz said:
Features like SM3.0, HDR, and SLI of course! ;)
Click to expand...

Well I usually try and stay out of the Nvidia vs ATI thing, but thats not entirly correct

HDR is not a feature of Nvidia only, this was only the way farcry implemented HDR, HL2
s HDR will work on both according to Valve.
 
BigTaf said:
Well I usually try and stay out of the Nvidia vs ATI thing, but thats not entirly correct

HDR is not a feature of Nvidia only, this was only the way farcry implemented HDR, HL2
s HDR will work on both according to Valve.
Click to expand...
It will, indeed!
But read this artice (or my excerpt below).

The ATI part skips these tests as they make use of features not supported by the R4x0 series of cores, namely floating point filtering (Used for HDR effects) and flow control, which is part of the Pixel Shader 3.0 specification.

As far as results go, the two boards trade blows, but NVIDIA's Pixel Shader 3.0-based performance comes out on top, easily winning the majority of the tests. The X850 XT only really seems to shine with some of the per-pixel environmant mapping and HDR tests without floating point filtering. Having said that, it shouldn't be lost that performance in all of these tests is impressive on both devices.
Click to expand...
Digitcon: What are your thoughts on which graphics card to pair up with your new cpu?
 
Let's remember people...

For the sake of this post, no haggling over differing technologies, dual core = dual single-core opteron

How many of you would reject a dual opteron setup if it fell from the sky and landed on your desk? I know if I had a bottomless budget I'd be sitting on a dual dual-core Opteron solution, but that's besides the point. Workstation-class programs, encoding, and other applications already benefit from this second core, be it on the same die as the first or a socket away in an opteron system. Like everyone else is saying, duallies seem to age much better than their single-core counterparts.

AMD will have improvements to dual core, to be sure, and eventually quad core and so on and so forth. But, just like you can still use an encoder that benefits from SMP on your single core now, albiet more slowly, you will still be likely to be able to use tomorrow's quad core apps on a dual core. So save your money through the quad move, and then laugh at them all when eight-way comes out and you can afford the first generation.
 
get the 3000, or a 3200, and grab a 7800gt when they hit stores mid next month, then the middle or end of next year, grab a really nice dual core when they have dropped significantly in price.
This is given if you game. If you multitask or do rendering or that kind of thing get the dual core and the lower end video card (6600gt) now.
 
If you need to save the cash, then go for the x800xl. It's performance will be enough to last awhile. HDR is having trouble gaining speed and in games like Far Cry it can be more of a burden then a gift.

The 6600gt would probably be ousted soon because it's a mid range card now (about to move to low end) once ATI starts creating competition for Nvidia.
 
I just wanted to add my two cents.

I'm currently running a winchester 3000, 2gigs pc3200 geil ram, radeon x800xl video (much more then that, but that's all that's necessary)

For most tasks, amd64 3000 is a fantastic chip. For single applications and some mild multitasking, it's FANTASTIC. The ONLY reason I would suggest someone buy a x2 if they do a lot of video encoding. If I try and encode video, I'm stuck. Of course, I can open up word or run firefox. However, you're not going to be able to play an intentsive video game AND encode video. The x2 will enable you to do that.

I'm very satisfied with the x800xl. My current game of choice is bf2. I play it at 1680x1050 with 4x AA enabled and all the settings maxed out.
 
Im primarily gaming, so single core A64 looks to be a great idea for now.
As far as vid card, i didnt want to spend more than $180 right now, but wanted to do the PCIe switch so i didnt have to worry about that for a few years. I figured the 6600GT would be a nice mid range card now, but i am notorious about not beign on top of what tech is coming down the line. So if theres a better Nvidia mid range card or ATi mid range card set to drop, i could wait a few weeks. i cant spend more than $200 right now, but want to be able to upgrade easily in the next year or two. Any questions? Thanks for all the discussion, its been very helpful.
-J
 
the danger you run into with only spending that much on a card is that it will become outdated quickly. IE, I bought a 9800pro in June 2004, it was a great card, but on the newer games (d3,hl2, etc) it just couldn't cut it without some serious IQ loss. It took MAJOR tweaking to make d3 playable with decent graphics. I would suggest looking into refurbished video cards on newegg. They are usually far cheaper, and are covered against DOA by newegg (no restock fee, refund usually, though DOA on these items is rare, they are usually just open box, not actually refurbished) and are still under manufacturer warranty for RMA. I bought a x800pro VIVO for $198 shipped. It overclocks very well, and hits x800xl speeds easily, despite missing 4 pipes, which can be enabled by connecting a cut trace. Thus it becomes a x800xt. Now, given all this, if you aren't into that kind of tweaking, you could still just pick up a x800xl refurb, or a vanilla 6800 refurb. I'm not sure if some 6800s mod to more pipes on PCI-E or not (it'd be a bios flash).


My opinion on SM3, HDR etc, is that by the time it is heavily used in games, you'll be upgrading to a new card anyways. Besides, right now I haven't seen any IQ screen shots that show a huge difference between ATI/Nvidia on any game, regardless of tech. If you want SLI as an option, I would suggest going with a 6800 vanilla refurb.

Pricing wise, the x800xl can be had for $233 shipped refurbed, x800pro VIVO (sometimes mods to 16pipes, which makes it a ~$300 card) runs $204 shipped on refurb, the 128mb 6800nu is going for $213 shipped (new /w -$20 mir) and is SLI cap. the 256mb is going for $230 shipped on refurb. 6800GT is going for $301 shipped after $50 mir.

Honestly the 6800GT is just way too expensive, and is getting into 7800GT range imo. I honestly think that the x800pro/x800xl is the best buy, though the 6800nu can be had if you "need" SLI, though I think SLI "buy 1 now, buy 1 later" doesn't always work out.
 
longhorn is a long ways off, but I'd imagine that it'll run as many cores as you could possibly afford.
 
Longhorn is now called Windows Vista. Due out next year, probably in the Sept timeframe.

Not sure of technical details regarding maximum core usage... I can't find any info about this in it's help files. Maybe more info will be released when Beta 1 comes out shortly. If I come across anything, I'll post it. I'll keep scouring MSDN and TechNet while keeping my fingers crossed.
 
Why are you guys worried about how many cores this thing will support? I'm sure it will be at least 4, which is more than most will be able to afford anyways. Wouldn't be surprised if they break it down into "home" and "pro" that the "pro" version would support 8+.
 
mikelz85 said:
Why are you guys worried about how many cores this thing will support? I'm sure it will be at least 4, which is more than most will be able to afford anyways. Wouldn't be surprised if they break it down into "home" and "pro" that the "pro" version would support 8+.
Click to expand...
LOL True dat.
 
Does your wife game? What are you going to do with the computer that you are replacing?

Get yourself the least expensive system that you can right now (that offers the performance that you are looking for). 3000+, 6600GT, 1GB cheap ram (Corsair TwinX will only run at 2.5 on AMD anyway). Then give your old system to your wife and get her into gaming. Then, in a year or so, she is going to be begging you for an upgrade. :) At that time, you can get the parts that you want (at cheaper prices/more choices), and give her your old system. Then you both get upgrades.

That's what my wife and I do.

Alternatively, you could just get a 939 agp mobo and a 3000+ to replace your existing mobo/proc for a nice little upgrade. I saw you mention a $200 budget for right now, and this would be around that. Hopefully, that would tide you over until the prices of the components you want drop.

Third alternative would be for you and your wife to decide how much cash you have for the upgrade (first post said that you guys had a lump sum now, but wouldn't next year), and put it into a 1 year CD or something and gain interest on it while at the same time protecting it from your upgrade-hungry hands. Then, in a year, spend it all on the best components you can afford. If going this route, tell your wife that you deserve $150 for a new 6600GT now since you have made a mature decision to wait until you can get more for your hard earned money. Sell your 9800pro for whatever you can get for it, and buy your wife a nice new bracelet or something with the proceeds.

I really want a new X2 proc too. They are just too expensive right now for my tastes. If I had an unlimited budget, I wouldn't mind jumping in on the bandwagon as soon as it gets here, but I don't. While drooling over the X2, I told my wife that I really wanted one, but quickly told her that I wasn't even going to consider it until it got to >$200. There will always be something bigger and better on the horizon that will release and make prices on previous stuff come down. You have to decide what is good enough for you right now, and wait on getting the stuff you WANT when it hits a price point that you can justify.
 
Flip-
Thanks for the post. You had some really interesting and insightful ideas. Obviously you have been used to parts bargaining for a while. Good to hear advice from someone in my position. The idea about putting the money into a CD is really good, i liked that one. I will most likely either get nothing now, or get the mobo/3000+/ram/pciE card. Its hard to be all mature with large sums of money like that. Im not used to it yet. Im sure the money COULD be used for something else, but theres nothing pressing....yet....
Thanks again. Ill let you know once we make a choice.

-J
 
My pleasure digitcon. ;) One more quick thing I will put out there on your plate is this:

Early next year the M2 socket will be launched. That will mean yet another mobo, and this time... new ram too. DDR-2 instead of regular old DDR. Just something else to consider while stressing over what you are going to do. :p
 
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