Upgrade time! Help?

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Yossarian22

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
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1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Gaming, procrastinating, writing code.
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Yes. Around ~$400, possibly more.
3) Where do you live?
New Jersey (ugh)
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific.
CPU, GPU, everything possibly but a monitor.
6) Will you be overclocking?
If LGA775 and I can get a bolt-on HSF kit, damn right.
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Sometime within the next several months
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.
Not sure.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license?
Yep, good ol' XP Pro.

I'm running an E4400 rig I hastily put together once I realized my big and aging Northwood box couldn't handle simple games like HL2 and got hot enough to scramble eggs on.
Stock cooler and my first LGA775 build (I don't put machines together often) and I can tell the stock HSF isn't mounted properly (I idle at 60 celsius according to Intel's TAT :eek:) due to the damn LGA775's crap retention mechanism (bruised thumbs and bent mobos!)

7900GS isn't too impressive either, I was quite surprised Fallout 3 played well on it, but I don't even think about running Empire: Total War on this thing (despite the fact Empire is ATM broken). This is especially true once I upgraded my monitor to 22" (1680x1050).

I was curious if I should just get a new CPU and GPU and drop them in or I was wondering people's thoughts on Phenom II. Some say LGA775 is a dead street, yet in a lot of the benches I saw, Wolfdale has a lead on Phenom II every time. But a Phenom II X4 940 can be had for about the same price as a E8500 or Q8300 (newegg).

What do you think?
 
I have a few follow-up questions:

- What do you currently have? List out the full specs, including your case and power supply, of your current setup.

- Is the XP Pro license an OEM or a retail key? Is it a brand new license key or do you plan on reusing your old/current one?

- When, exactly, do you plan on ordering everything? If you plan on waiting at least another month or two, try to save up money. That $400 budget makes the task of building a new computer difficult.

- Along those same lines, how much, at most, are you willing to spend on an entirely new system? (Include the costs of shipping and taxes within that total.)

- Which games, in addition to Fallout 3 and Empire: Total War, do you plan on playing? Which level of visual quality do you want for your games?

Please answer the above questions, in detail, so we could give you some recommendations for the best parts for your budget.
 
Sure. :)

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 "Allendale" 2.0GHz
Mobo: Asus P5K (P35)
GPU: PNY Geforce 7900GS 256MB PCI-E
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 2x1GB DDR2 800
Case: Chenming CMUI-P-601 (Chieftec clone)
PSU: FSP Group (Fortron Source) AX450-PN 450W
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 160GB (ST3160815AS)
Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 226BW 22" (doesn't need to be replaced)

Machine was built around 8/28/07. All the above netted about $750 in 2007. :eek:
Wasn't the smartest decision in retrospect, but, it got the job done.

I have retail XP Pro, I plan on reusing it, so no worries about factoring in an OS into the costs.

I know I could spend about $300 and slap in new CPU and GPU into the machine and that would suffice for a certain length of time... although in the long run I don't think it would be enough.

I feel as though I built this machine blind. I really didn't understand the technology going in and I still really don't. I mean, I was relying on tomshardware for Goodness sake, I didn't discover [H]ardOCP until a few weeks ago. :eek:

The main things I feel that are wrong with his machine is the fact that it doesn't run these supposedly "old games" smoothly. I can't run CS:S on max settings for a totally smooth experience at 1680x1050. My CPU idles at 60c in TAT (HSF not mounted properly), my RAM is rated 4-4-4-12 @ 800mhz yet CPU-Z reports DRM:CPU frequency 1:2 although the FSB is rated 800mhz and they're in dual channel. Does that even make sense? Any changes in BIOS result in, yep, a crash or failure to boot. Either I'm an idiot or this particular motherboard (P5K) sucks along with Bearlake (antiquated with what is out today). The case decision wasn't the smartest in the world, either (even though it's roomy enough and has 120mm exaust and dual 80mm intakes).

I'm not looking to play Crysis or show off an impressive machine as an e-peen extension. I just want an upgrade. Or a rebuild. It is sad that I can't even play CoD 4 with a stable frame rate with all the settings lowered. I'm not looking to play the latest and the greatest. CoD 4 is probably the most modern game I have, besides X3: Terran Conflict and FO3. I mean, I want to play these games, but I know with my current machine I can either play them and have a really crappy frame rate or they'll just be utter slide shows. I had to play FO3 with VATS the entire time because real time aiming was too slow! Frustrating. The big games are X3 and Armed Assault. I don't even play Armed Assault. What's the point when I can't have my view distance above 1km? What about when Armed Assault 2 comes out? I'll be really hosed then. Won't even try Empire: Total War because I know it will run like crap.

I should be able to play these old games on max and the newer games with some lowered detail. Playable, but not super great looking (I'm not really the eye candy type).

In total, I am willing to spend the same amount I spent last time. ~$600. $600-700.
 
Seeing your specs, I would simply upgrade CPU, add 2more Gb of ram and change the 3d card. This should run about 400$. Don't worry about your ram timings..

As for 775 being dead...I would still build a 775 machine in 7 months np. Don't follow the hype. the % difference is still minimal.

As for the next time you install an Intel CPU heatsink, remove the mobo from the case and do the install. To check if it is properly installed, check the back of the motherboard. All 4 plastic clips should be coming out evenly with the holding bit visible (the plastic extention that makes sure the heatsink cannot be pullled off)...I hope this made sense..lol
 
phildabill said:
Seeing your specs, I would simply upgrade CPU, add 2more Gb of ram and change the 3d card. This should run about 400$. Don't worry about your ram timings..

As for 775 being dead...I would still build a 775 machine in 7 months np. Don't follow the hype. the % difference is still minimal.

As for the next time you install an Intel CPU heatsink, remove the mobo from the case and do the install. To check if it is properly installed, check the back of the motherboard. All 4 plastic clips should be coming out evenly with the holding bit visible (the plastic extention that makes sure the heatsink cannot be pullled off)...I hope this made sense..lol
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking. You never see anyone comparing Phenom II x4 to Wolfdale because Phenom is QUAD CORE OMG and Wolfdale probably pulls ahead at most gaming applications, but not encoding h264 or anything like that. Seems like the entire industry is trying to push quad core on us. To be fair, why shouldn't they? It's been out for ages.


I realize RAM timings aren't too important but I don't know why my RAM has always clocked at half the speed of the FSB (is CPU-Z discounting the fact they're running in dual channel?)

And regarding the LGA775 retention mechanism, yeah... I did install the HSF while it was in the motherboard tray, which was in the case, come to think of it. I didn't know any better, the last socket I worked with was 478, heh. I should probably reinstall the HSF on my system now (does Intel's TAT tool always give a high temperature? idling at 60c doesn't seem very normal core temperature to me...)

I appreciate the input! Honestly, it helps a great deal.
 
Check to see whether or not your board can support the newer Core 2 Wolfdale (dual-core) and Yorkfield (quad-core) processors with a BIOS update. If it can support the new processors, then you won't need to replace your board.

Are you using the stock HSF or an aftermarket CPU cooler?

The easiest way to obtain excellent performance in gaming is to upgrade your video card. All it takes is one (1GB) HD4870 or one GTX 260 to play virtually all of the games that are out there. At around $200 each, neither card would cost you an arm or a leg. However, the processor may become the new performance bottleneck in your system.

Here's another cheap yet effective upgrade: Get one of the Western Digital 640GB hard drives. The Caviar Blue (WD6400AAKS) or Black (WD6401AALS) can each be found for under $80 (often with free shipping) and are only about 10% slower (in most benchmarks) than the VelociRaptor.
 
Stuff to keep:
Optical. I assume you have a 16x or better DVD burner. If not they're dirt cheap, $30?
Mainboard. Looking at the specs on the Asus web site, it looks like your board will take a Core 2 Quad though you might need to flash the bios first. You'll have to look at the updates & read the release notes.
Case. I think this is ok. You might have to remove the lower drive tray to install a long graphics card, but other than that it's fine. Of course that's assuming I'm looking at the right model.
Maybe ram. Ram's dirt cheap. More would be nice but you'll end up with 2.5-3.5 usable, probably more like 3-3.5 (I get 2.5 in a 32-bit OS but I've got a dual w/ SCSI and 2 gfx cards...)

New parts.
This is just sort of a quick stab at what I'd come up with in 5-10 minutes.
$220 Core 2 Quad 9400
$75-105 Western Digital Caviar Black 640 or 1TB HD.
$95 (-20 MIR) Corsair 550W PSU Maybe bump it up to a 650W for an extra $10
$390 so far. $420 with a bigger disk.

$250 Graphics: EVGA NV GTX275 or ATI 4890 (people tell me XFX & EVGA are good)
$640, $670 with bigger disk. You can knock the graphics card down to a GTX260, 4870, or 4850 to save some cash & still get quite good performance. I'm just spending your budget...

$45-?? Ram, 2x2GB. An upgrade would be nice.
I'm one of those crazy idiots that run dual CPUs and doesn't overclock (Supermicro board + OC = no.), so I usually just end up buying Kingston because it always seems to work & usually comes at a good price when I'm buying. As a result, I don't really follow what's good.

So... that's about $685-$700 or a bit over.
 
Last edited:
Yossarian22 said:
Sure. :)

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 "Allendale" 2.0GHz
Mobo: Asus P5K (P35)
GPU: PNY Geforce 7900GS 256MB PCI-E
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 2x1GB DDR2 800
Case: Chenming CMUI-P-601 (Chieftec clone)
PSU: FSP Group (Fortron Source) AX450-PN 450W
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 160GB (ST3160815AS)
Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 226BW 22" (doesn't need to be replaced)
Click to expand...

I gots to go but I've got an unusual recomendation for you: pickup a 2nd 7900GS and maybe 780i. I'll elaborate when i get back.
 
Gotta nitpick a few items here....

zandor said:
New parts.
This is just sort of a quick stab at what I'd come up with in 5-10 minutes.
$220 Core 2 Quad 9400
$75-105 Western Digital Caviar Black 640 or 1TB HD.
$95 (-20 MIR) Corsair 550W PSU Maybe bump it up to a 650W for an extra $10
$390 so far. $420 with a bigger disk.

$250 Graphics: EVGA NV GTX275 or ATI 4890 (people tell me XFX & EVGA are good)
$640, $670 with bigger disk. You can knock the graphics card down to a GTX260, 4870, or 4850 to save some cash & still get quite good performance. I'm just spending your budget...

$45-?? Ram, 2x2GB. An upgrade would be nice.
I'm one of those crazy idiots that run dual CPUs and doesn't overclock (Supermicro board + OC = no.), so I usually just end up buying Kingston because it always seems to work & usually comes at a good price when I'm buying. As a result, I don't really follow what's good.

So... that's about $685-$700 or a bit over.
Click to expand...

My issue here is with the video card, as I believe that the GTX 275 and the HD4890 are overkill for your resolution and your needs.

More RAM is always better, but I would go with a 2x2GB kit (G.Skill and A-DATA make excellent RAM kits that are relatively cheap) and sell the 2x1GB kit. Unless you're planning on a major overclock of the processor, you could stick with DDR2 800 RAM.

I actually forgot to say this earlier, but you need to get a better power supply. Fortunately, zandor recommended a couple of good ones. Some other brands to consider are Antec (Earthwatts & TruePower Trio/Quad series), BFG (LS and ES series), Silverstone, Enermax, and PC Power & Cooling (or, the only OCZ-based power supplies worth considering). A good power supply with active PFC, 80 Plus certification, at least 500 watts of maximum power, and at least 40A combined on all of its 12V rails, is all that you need.

MrWizard6600 said:
I gots to go but I've got an unusual recomendation for you: pickup a 2nd 7900GS and maybe 780i. I'll elaborate when i get back.
Click to expand...

I'd love to hear his elaboration, but I disagree with his recommendation. First off, you don't need SLI for the resolution you're using. Sure, you could get a second 7900GS and take advantage of it, but it's more practical (if not possibly cheaper overall) to just get a better video card and sell your old one. (Then again, this is assuming that you'll be able to reuse your current motherboard.)

The other problem that I see is with the board in general, as virtually all of the motherboards using the NVIDIA SLI-based chipsets have known stability issues, especially while overclocking. The P35 is actually a pretty decent chipset, though the newer P43/P45 chipsets are better when it comes to overclocking.
 
MrWizard6600 said:
I gots to go but I've got an unusual recomendation for you: pickup a 2nd 7900GS and maybe 780i. I'll elaborate when i get back.
Click to expand...

Please do. Again, I've been going to Tom's Hardware (biased and not too great of a site, believe me) and on their charts 7900GS in SLI doesn't chart too well for 1680x1050 (my monitor's native resolution) but I'd be willing to hear what you've got to say on the subject, of course. ;)

The P5K indeed does support 45nm process CPUs, I've got the manual right here in my lap. I assume they mean Wolfdale and Yorkfield.

Still using the stock. I actually bought an aftermarket heatsink, the Thermalright 90 heatsink but the 90mm I got with it (think it was a Yate Loon) broke a fin and thus went my cooler upgrade. Plus I had no back plate, which is... ugh, annoying to mount these LGA775 HSFs.

I'm not up on my hard drives but I had (and still have) an original Barracuda (back when they were still single platter) and that's why when I built this machine originally I decided to go with a Seagate again: brand loyalty and durability. Is WD's Caviar Black the cream of the crop now in terms of speed (besides the Raptors) ? What about reliability?

I also question if a better motherboard is in order. I know it's been awhile but I was under the assumption Asus P5K was a budget board, does the P45 chipset have any advantages over P35 to really make a difference?

But I'm open to all suggestions. I'm researching what you're suggesting as well, so during the entire process, I'm learning. So, I really do appreciate the help. Wish I would have found this site sooner. :)
 
Yes, P35's will support ALL 45nm CPU's, INCLUDING QUADS. you MAY need a BIOS update, so do make sure you have upgraded to the latest BIOS on your board.

The P35 board is not that much worse than the P45. if you're looking for high FSB overclocks then the P45 is what you want, but if you're just looking to get a decent clock increase, e.g. e8400 from 3ghz to 3.6ghz, you should be fine, as that only takes a 450mhz FSB. you'd be able to hit that no problem IMO.

WD Caviar is the BEST drive on the market. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Just buy one. you'll be glad you did
(its silent, writes quickly, and its dirt cheap for its size/performance).

Use the thermalright 90 cooler, buy this backplate: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/lgboforulula.html.
then buy this fan: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185005

You now have a brand new cooler upgrade.

Also, you WILL need a new PSU. grab this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341022

then buy this GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102810

Finally, this CPU: E8400: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037
or if you want to go quad: Q8400: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115057
 
AmongTheChosenX: Nice fan, but my Thermalright Ultra is the Thermalright Ultra 90. Will the retention wire/brackets allow a 120mm fan and if it is suitable, I think I should place the fan at a distance from the heatsink (half inch or less), so it's within the full envelope of the blades and gets the circulation the fan provides.

DannyBui: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Nicely priced and it looks fancy, but electrical specifications? Sketchy. Do appreciate the recommendation(s) though.

Keep 'em coming.

I'll be back tonight, got two three hour lectures to attend. I get wifi in the other building, maybe I'll come on here during class :D
 
Yossarian22 said:
AmongTheChosenX: Nice fan, but my Thermalright Ultra is the Thermalright Ultra 90. Will the retention wire/brackets allow a 120mm fan and if it is suitable, I think I should place the fan at a distance from the heatsink (half inch or less), so it's within the full envelope of the blades and gets the circulation the fan provides.

DannyBui: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Nicely priced and it looks fancy, but electrical specifications? Sketchy. Do appreciate the recommendation(s) though.

Keep 'em coming.

I'll be back tonight, got two three hour lectures to attend. I get wifi in the other building, maybe I'll come on here during class :D
Click to expand...

the bracket will fit just fine. i do apologize, i forgot it was only 90mm's wide. just grab a 90 or 92mm fan and strap that on there you should be good.
 
Sorry for the lack of replies, but my week old Logitech G5 died and what's more, my MX wireless POS I only intended to use for my EeePC 1000HE is sorta broken (plastic sleeve came off the USB dongle). So now I have to contact the great folks at Logitech and see if they'll ship me a new one, no questions asked.

Regarding feedback and my particular platform, for what I want to do, it's a no brainer I stick with LGA775 (nobody had any Phenom II objections, so...) but the stipulation that this is going to be the last upgrade for this "dying socket" (probably last as long as Pentium 4s, and they're still around).

Definitely need a back plate for my Thermalright Ultra 90 just sitting here along with a nice tube of AS5 to solve the pesky LGA775 retention problem (for those who can seat one properly or know the voodoo how, I salute you).

CPU: E8400 @ $167.99 (FS) or it's Yorkfield brethren Q8400 @ $184.99 (FS)

GPU: People have got mixed feelings about this one, so here are the contenders!
Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB @ @164.99 ($15 MIR)
OR
EVGA GTX 260 Core 216 896MB 448-bit GDDR3 @ $189.99 ($20 MIR)

Although I think you can find a 4870 1GB within the same price range as the Core 216...

Along with this, more RAM, better and cleaner PSU, and perhaps a HDD (I see why the Western Digital Caviar Black is highly regarded after a bit of research).

Anybody have any clue as to when the next Intel price drop will be on C2D stuff since they seem to run at a pretty decent tick-tock production cycle? Summer is a terrible time to buy these sorts of things, e.g: my last machine.
 
Yossarian22 said:
DannyBui: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Nicely priced and it looks fancy, but electrical specifications? Sketchy. Do appreciate the recommendation(s) though.
Click to expand...

I recommend getting the BFG LS-550 PSU. It's a good quality PSU decent priced at $80.
 
Got parts in today, just waiting on the retention bracket and fan from Sidewinder Computers (the newegg warehouse if you live in NY or NJ is in Edison, so I ordered on the weekend and got my parts Tuesday with regular shipping. Good service!). Also went to court today for a silly moving violation and my wallet got it's ass kicked.

Goodies!:

IMG_0469.jpg


I went with:

PSU: ANTEC earthwatts 500W -- $69.99
HD: 640GB|WD WD6401AALS -- $74.99
RAM: 2x2GB|G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ R (5-5-5-15 @ 1.8) -- $47.99
CPU: C2D E8400 -- $167.99
GPU: XFX HD4770 -- $109.99

Innards currently:

IMG_0473.jpg



I went with the 4770 because it was cheaper and easier on my wallet. I figure if it doesn't perform how I want it to, I can always just order another card later on (summer isn't the best season to upgrade, e.g: core i5) and donate this card. Cheapskate, yes, but I have a circulation of parts going 'round. A new case and mobo and I turn my old parts into a new machine for one of my family members or folding. :D I'm actually pretty impressed with the 4770 right now, my frames in CS:S went from 119 avg to something like 260 avg. with the 'video stress tool'. In any case, it was a big improvement from the 7900GS. Slightly shorter card too, giving my HDD's SATA cables room to breathe. Clear Sky on High settings and no hiccups. XP reports 3.25 GB of RAM, although BIOS reports the full 4096MB.

Noticed the stock HSF rocks around a bit, it isn't secured properly which would explain the 55c idle temp. Isn't making too great of contact to the die. This will be fixed with the retention bracket. The only two components I didn't put in the system yet are HDD and CPU (waiting on sidewindercomputers). I'll post better pix (camera on 640x480, doh!) when I finish it up and get the retention bracket and fan. Should arrive Thursday or Friday, although admittedly, nothing impressive about the rig itself but I think you all should be entitled to pix for helping me out and advising me. :D
 
If its loose, then no, its not cooling your CPU properly. Simply hold down the opposite corner and push on the loose corner. Make sure the black tab is twisted in the proper location to lock in place.

Have you removed the plastic push-pins from your Ultra 90? If not, you'll need a flathead micro screwdriver, or something similar, to pry up one of the black "tabs" and slide the black portion off, then twist the clear part off. The Ultra 90 may have come with fan brackets for a 120mm fan (my Ultima 90 did).

Thanks for the pics. :D
 
Here we are:

I can see where the thermal problem was...

stuff


With Intel's stock heatsink:

stuff


Oh hay, what's up? :D

stuff


Completed system:
stuff


Whole lotta fan:
stuff


Cable mgt. ain't the best, but oh well:
stuff


feels like those fancy hand dryers in restrooms, lot of air flow! :
stuff


finally some results

with demo version:
12467 Useless marks (3dmarks)
5551 SM 2.0 score
6210 SM 3.0 score
2679 CPU score

stuff


Gave me an additional 60 FPS boost in CS:S' little video stress test.
Haven't really tried furmark or prime95 as I'm going on vacation tomorrow.
Tried under and overclocking the HD4770 and it kept crashing on me, probably need to use rivatuner or updated version of CCC.

Good stuff.
 
The thermal paste footprint looks normal to me.

Yossarian22 said:
Here we are:

I can see where the thermal problem was...



With Intel's stock heatsink:



Oh hay, what's up? :D



Completed system:


Whole lotta fan:


Cable mgt. ain't the best, but oh well:


feels like those fancy hand dryers in restrooms, lot of air flow! :


finally some results

with demo version:
12467 Useless marks (3dmarks)
5551 SM 2.0 score
6210 SM 3.0 score
2679 CPU score



Gave me an additional 60 FPS boost in CS:S' little video stress test.
Haven't really tried furmark or prime95 as I'm going on vacation tomorrow.
Tried under and overclocking the HD4770 and it kept crashing on me, probably need to use rivatuner or updated version of CCC.

Good stuff.
Click to expand...
 
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