Upgrade Advice

[simplywill]

Hey All,
Thanks in advance for reading my post. I was looking for some advice on what to do about upgrading my current PC. I use it primarily for gaming. Below is what I'm currently running.

Computer Case: LIAN LI PC-60BPLUSII Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-S3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 Conroe 2.66GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor \
RAM: 4 GB (4x1)CORSAIR 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)
GPU: EVGA 9800 GTX 512 MB
PSU: OCZ GameXStream OCZ600GXSSLI 600W ATX12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply
Monitors: 2x 25.5 in. Asus LCDs @ 1920x1200

A) The system is a bit old, at about 4 years, and was my first self made custom PC. A lot of it was upgraded in steps. I know you can only do this to a point, as the CPU and Mobo will eventually bottleneck performance. So, to get any current/new video cards, I'd assume I would need to completely start from scratch? If not, what could I upgrade/replace to see a decent performance jump? (I play SC2, Heroes of Newerth, Left4Dead, and other random games, usually at 1920x1200 with mid settings and a lot of the bells and whistles off, out of necessity)

B) I'd be aiming to spend around $1000-1400 total for the whole computer, for the video card, I was thinking maybe a 470 or 480 (I was really disappointed I missed that 390 deal that was stickied). I know that an SLI/Crossfire set up can yield comparable if not better price/value, but that would require a crossfire/sli mobo and pretty high wattage on a PSU which I feel like can negate the price/power benefit. My concern about the 480 is that that deal seemed too good to be true, at 390, with many places having similar cards listed at 450-500+. Is this a sign of the card aging and becoming less relevant with newer models just around the corner? Should I wait a few months? My current set up can play most games pretty well at the moment, and I don't really have the cash to be upgrading every one or two years. I want to make sure this'll last me hopefully another 4 years.

**edit** I only talked about Nvidia because I guess consensus from many reviews I've read is that the 470 and 480 seem to be better than AMD/ATI currently at the price range i'm looking at. I'm not opposed to AMD or anything, I just wasn't sure if they were what I was looking for.**edit**

C) Any recommendations on other parts? like a good CPU, RAM, etc.. Keeping in mind that I was never terribly comfortable with overclocking. Getting the RAM I have listed above to run with the correct timings and voltage was a pain ithat resulted in several RMAs (probably not because of anything I did, just bad luck)

 

[Lord_Exodia]

I'd wait a few months for a few reasons.

1 AMD has new awesome GPU's, and CPU's coming. Newest rumors is their high end GPU part may arrive before christmas along with other sku's. Also their processors are due Q1 possibly early Q2 next year. You'll want to see what they have to offer

2.This will surely drop the prices of current GPU's. That's going to be critical as a high end gpu for 1920x1080/1280 is going to eat up a huge chunk of that $1400 budget.

I'm gonna recommend a new power supply (850watt +), motherboard(wait and see), cpu(wait to see about amd bulldozer info leaking soon), and ram(ddr 3 tri channel about 6gb or more). Case is okay for now. When switching hardware be sure to clean it up nicely and run good cable management.

Obviously you should wait for the gpu also.

I'm recommending you wait until December 15th for the GPU info and perhaps Jan 15th for the cpu and mobo info. We're heading into October soon so I'd overclock your current setup to get a little more out of it to allow the 3 month or so wait to go by smoothly. Also the games you mentioned dont seen to be that demanding. I think the overclocking would help you withstand the wait.

 

[magoo]

This is just me talking.....
for your budget, I just built a pretty stout system for my son to upgrade into.....

You'll have to go to newegg and look up the components.....I'm using my netbook and pulling links is a PITA.

Motherboard......EVGA P55 FTW......179 after rebate
Memory......Corsair DDR3 Dominators, 4GB.....99 after rebate
PSU......Corsair HX-750.....129 after rebate
Graphics.....Dual nvidia 460 GTX.....EVGA 01G-P3-1372-TR.....229 each after rebate
CPU......Intel Ci5 750......195.....

So for just over $1000 you have a really nice system, SLi'd, OC friendly (I have this same thing running at 3.8 GHz without doing more than 5 minutes of adjustments) and long lasting.....You could always buy a single, more powerful GPU spending the same 458 that the two 460s cost.....if you want Eyefinity from a single card, a 5870 E6 can be had for about the same cost, but I think the performance of the 460s make them a pretty good buy right now.

 

[simplywill]

I saw that a few people were talking about new GPUs due the end of this year from AMD but when I tried to find any articles/press releases to back it up, I didn't have any luck, thanks for confirming this.

The games I'm running aren't that graphically intensive, which is why I had debated upgrading or waiting for some time. I usually only notice unpleasant drops in FPS when things get really hectic. For the most part though, games run very smoothly.

I'd most likely just buy a new case as well, and turn my current PC into a media center for my TV. Are there any other suggestions on what I can do with my current PC once I start building my new one? It's still a great computer and I feel like its a shame/waste to have it do the work that a 200 dollar barebones PC could do. (It's my first baby and has sentimental value!)

I saw you recommended waiting on the mobo, gpu, and cpu, but while I'm waiting for those things to be released, I guess I'll keep an eye out for any really great deals on ram, psus, and maybe cases. I guess I should look in those respective sections for info on those items, but any recommendations or juicy deals people have found recently? I'd probably like 6-8 GB of ram, and I suppose 850 PSU (is that much really necessary? seems excessive). I can buy these now and just hold onto them while I wait for news about the new video cards. Or is this a bad idea because i'm not sure if i'd be going intel versus amd, or nvidia versus amd?

 

[rUmX]

I know waiting is hard with the upgrade itch, but this time it is a really good idea to do so. AMD's new cards are right around the corner. From the rumors this will be a full top-to-bottom launch before Christmas much like Evergreen. Price drops are to be expected as the next series rolls in and last years 5xxx drops in price.

New CPUs are also around the corner... but the wait is still going to be pretty long, but it will be worth it since you only upgrade every 4 years. I'm getting the same feeling I got since 2006 when Core 2 launched. AMD will finally have a new architecture (Bulldozer) since K7, and 2nd gen Core i7 (Sandy Bridge). I feel 2011 is going to be a great year to build an all new system.

 

[Valset]

Hey All,

**edit** I only talked about Nvidia because I guess consensus from many reviews I've read is that the 470 and 480 seem to be better than AMD/ATI currently at the price range i'm looking at. I'm not opposed to AMD or anything, I just wasn't sure if they were what I was looking for.**edit**

well that is not true of those cards, Nvidia's strong point right now is the 460GTX. it is an awesome card. The 480GTX selling point is that it is the single fastest GPU card and when SLI provides the single most powerful gaming solution. it is however hot (read power hungry here) and noisy. So much so that Nvidia actually has "Fermi certified cases" award to cases that can keep them cool. They run that hot. However the GTX480 sli solution currently has no rival. The problem here is that if your only going single card soltuion the GTX480 isn't much better then a 5870. [H]ard OCP has shown this repeatedly. http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/08/30/asus_eah5870_v2_stalker_edition_video_card_review/1 if you look at the 100 dollar cheaper reference 5870 you will see what I mean.

the 5850 and the 5870 are awesome cards with a glaring issue. They are cool and quiet (relatively speaking) and command a higher price then their Nvidia counterparts as they do not require special cooling or larger PSU. They also suck ass at crossfire. this seems to be an issue with the 5800 series only for reasons unknown. (5770 crossfire is awesome) so if your getting a single card solution and are fairly sure that you don't want dual cards they are probably the better option. Just keep in mind that they don't have a good upgrade option like the 480GTX does.

The 470 is something of a non-issue card to me. I would not even consider it unless you can get one on the cheap. it has all the cons of a 480GTX but without being the top dog. I just can't see it being worth it. A lot of people will take issue with though. For myself I would not even consider it given that you can get a high end OCed 460GTX that comes reasonably close to it and 5850 that matches it. (again go look at the H reviews. Canned benchmarks do not tell the story here) if your going to have a very hot and noisy card (or have to get a damn good case) it should be the fastest. not second or third.

as for other hardware if you want budget AMD is king. anything past midrange and intel rules. if your going dual card I would recommend Intel

 

[Lord_Exodia]

I saw that a few people were talking about new GPUs due the end of this year from AMD but when I tried to find any articles/press releases to back it up, I didn't have any luck, thanks for confirming this.

See here for some news http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1548157 there is alot of places to find info actually.

I'd most likely just buy a new case as well, and turn my current PC into a media center for my TV. Are there any other suggestions on what I can do with my current PC once I start building my new one? It's still a great computer and I feel like its a shame/waste to have it do the work that a 200 dollar barebones PC could do. (It's my first baby and has sentimental value!)

2 things I could recommend. You could use it as a folding rig or sell the parts in the FS/FT forum here at Hardocp and get even more money toward your new build.

I saw you recommended waiting on the mobo, gpu, and cpu, but while I'm waiting for those things to be released, I guess I'll keep an eye out for any really great deals on ram, psus, and maybe cases. I guess I should look in those respective sections for info on those items, but any recommendations or juicy deals people have found recently? I'd probably like 6-8 GB of ram, and I suppose 850 PSU (is that much really necessary? seems excessive). I can buy these now and just hold onto them while I wait for news about the new video cards. Or is this a bad idea because i'm not sure if i'd be going intel versus amd, or nvidia versus amd?

BTW the Power supply is one of the most important parts of a system. Don't skimp on it. Also you may end up buying 2 cards and a 6 core processor and overclock all of these so thing ahead so that you aren't forced to buy another power supply so soon.

 

[simplywill]

2 things I could recommend. You could use it as a folding rig or sell the parts in the FS/FT forum here at Hardocp and get even more money toward your new build.

Would people actually pay decent money for the parts I have listed? I debated trying to sell the computer, but I didn't think I'd get much for it since you can get a pretty awesome PC comparatively new and pretty cheap.

 

[magoo]

Would people actually pay decent money for the parts I have listed? I debated trying to sell the computer, but I didn't think I'd get much for it since you can get a pretty awesome PC comparatively new and pretty cheap.

Somebody is always looking for stuff.
A good solid S775 CPU and MB combination will still fetch money, maybe not much
but it's better than having parts lying around.

And please don't buy into that bullschizzle about the "new Fermi cards being too hot and too loud"......look I just bought two GTX 480s and running at 85% fan speed they are no louder than my 5870s at 45% fan speed. I have them in my old Coolermaster Stacker EVO and they stay nice and cool, under gaming load the maximum GPU temperature was 78C which is about 10C warmer than my 5870s.
I didn't need any fancy new case or any fancy cooling. More PSU, yes, I upgraded; but that was in my plans anyway............so no real drastic changes. Let me tell you, the performance is jaw dropping.

My advice, you are going to be sitting around for 6 months trying to figure out when to pull the trigger on this build. Sure AMD is coming out with some new stuff, so is Intel, so will nvidia............but when? I'd just sit down now and decide what you need and go get it.
Hell you can run the build inside a cardboard box until you decide and/or have the cash to buy a new case......the only thing wrong with your Lian-Li is space where the HDD cage sits if you decide to SLi, but you can take that out and mount the HDD on the floor of the case if you need to.
If you are planning on a new case......look at the Corsair 600T or the Silverstone Fortress2.

 

[CHAOS!]

Hi simplywill !

We have the same setup, as it relates to gpu & psu . I've got an HD 4890 in my closet in a box, but that's another animal .


Before you plan a budget , it would be advisable to decide on a couple of things , namely , cpu & video . Intel is more expensive that AMD , & depending on the gpu , either Nvidia or AMD will be more expensive . An 850 watt psu , unless you have plans for an sli/crossfire setup, would likely be too much .However , it would leave you room for an SLI/Croosfire upgrade . Motherboard cost will fall in to place after you decide on a cpu , & gpu , to a certain extent . Your proposed budget now , would yield a quite nice computer !
Here's a couple of setups I've pulled off of Newegg :

AMD Quad Core based :

CPU : Phenom II X4 965 (3.4 ghz) $165
CPU Fan : Cooler Master V8 : $60
PSU : Corsair CMPSU (850 watt) $130
RAM : OCZ AMD Black Ed DDR3 1600 (8GB total) : $260
Mobo : Asus M4A78T-E : $115
GPU : HD 5870 (XFX) : $380
HDD : WD Caviar Blue (1TB) : $75
DVD Burner : Asus DRW 24B1ST : $24
OS : Win 7 64 bit (OEM) $140
Case : Azza Solano (Full Tower) : $110

Cost (before shipping) : $1399.91


Intel Quad Core Based :
CPU : I7 930 (Bloomfield 2.8 GHZ) : $285
CPU Fan : Cooler Master V8 : $60
RAM : Corsair XMS3 DDR3 1600 (8 GB Total) : $188
Mobo : MSI X58 Pro-E $190
HDD (same as above)
PSU (same as above) $130
GPU : GTX 470 (PNY) : $313
DVD Burner (LiteOn iHAS 324-98) $20
OS Win 7 Home Premium (64 bit OEM) $99
Case : Cooler Master Storm Sniper (Mid Tower) $ 140


Cost (before shipping) $ 1500.89


These are just a couple of rigs I put together earlier, but may give an idea . Both will leave some options for upgrading in the future .

 

[simplywill]

Hey Chaos,
Thanks for your reply. I would really like a crossfire/SLI set up one day, however I just have a lot of concerns about heating and proper cooling within the case and the increased cost of an SLI/Crossfire mobo and psu just seem to cancel out the attractiveness of two cheaper cards. If I did a dual gpu set up, i'd want it to be top of the line cards, and that's out of my price range. One day though...

I really appreciate the research you did on looking up parts. I had a few questions about some of the things you listed. Is there a reason why the RAM for the AMD set up is significantly more expensive than that of the Intel set up? Same capacity, but I don't see anything about the speed or timings, I know that AMD uses different timings and generally has very high timings and lower speeds as opposed to RAM for Intel builds which is lower timings and higher speeds (maybe I'm remembering this incorrectly, its been so long since I looked this up).

For the Hard Drive, OS, and DVD burner, those aren't part of my budgetary considerations as I have an older copy of Vista Professional laying around when I got Win7 on a educational discount. I'll most likely install win7 on the new rig and put Vista on the old one. Also, I'm fairly sure I have at least 3 or so copies of Windows XP laying around collecting dust somewhere. I have tons of spare drives, so that wouldn't be an issue either. Meaning...more money for other more important parts!

I'm not sure if anyone has heard of anything from Nvidia regarding new cards from them, but something in the past that I used to do from EVGA is to buy a pretty decent card from them, and use their step up program to keep my video card relevant with just paying for the incremental costs of new cards. I'm not sure if they still have this program, but it let me go from an 8800 GT to an 9800 GTX (when it was just released) for only a mere 60-70. Which was amazing. Do any other companies (for AMD/ATI) have a similar step-up program?

 

[simplywill]

And please don't buy into that bullschizzle about the "new Fermi cards being too hot and too loud"......look I just bought two GTX 480s and running at 85% fan speed they are no louder than my 5870s at 45% fan speed. I have them in my old Coolermaster Stacker EVO and they stay nice and cool, under gaming load the maximum GPU temperature was 78C which is about 10C warmer than my 5870s.
I didn't need any fancy new case or any fancy cooling. More PSU, yes, I upgraded; but that was in my plans anyway............so no real drastic changes. Let me tell you, the performance is jaw dropping.

My advice, you are going to be sitting around for 6 months trying to figure out when to pull the trigger on this build. Sure AMD is coming out with some new stuff, so is Intel, so will nvidia............but when? I'd just sit down now and decide what you need and go get it.
Hell you can run the build inside a cardboard box until you decide and/or have the cash to buy a new case......the only thing wrong with your Lian-Li is space where the HDD cage sits if you decide to SLi, but you can take that out and mount the HDD on the floor of the case if you need to.
If you are planning on a new case......look at the Corsair 600T or the Silverstone Fortress2.

I am very jealous of your dual 480 build! I've always bought cards in the 200 - mid 300 range, which is around where most of the performance increase for your dollar starts to drop off a good deal. I agree with you completely, if I keep waiting for X company to release new line of products, I'll forever be waiting and never actually get a decent computer going. But, I have to sorta balance this against my frugal nature (and relatively small wallet). Which is why I typically never buy a computer all at once. I'll buy the CPU and Mobo, then reuse my old RAM, Case, and GPU until I see an attractive deal online or a new line of cards is released (notice I mentioned EVGA's step up program in a previous post which is perfect for doing this). Then once I hit a road block because, say from the market switching from ddr2 ram to ddr3, I sort of stop upgrading and begin my saving up process again.

I'll have to do some thinking as to whether or not I want to act now, and start buying up parts or wait a bit. As I said in my Original Post, I'm not playing anything graphically intensive now, so my current set up is still serving me very well. I think i'm leaning towards just waiting to see what AMD releases and then acting sometime early next year.

Thanks to everyone in the Hard Forums for reading my post, I've read all of your posts and they've helped me immensely on figuring out what options will be best for me. Keep the advice coming though! This thread has renewed my old enthusiasm for building pcs and I'm always open to other's input and advice.

As a side note, I didn't realize how much heat my desktop produced until a year or two ago, I lived in an apartment on my own and realized I didn't need to turn on the heat during the winter time. Though, it was a very small apartment/bedroom. (I live in the NY area so winters get fairly cold). I'd imagine that dual 480 build could heat up an entire building!

**edit for some grammar and spelling**

 

[CHAOS!]

Hey Chaos,
Thanks for your reply. I would really like a crossfire/SLI set up one day, however I just have a lot of concerns about heating and proper cooling within the case and the increased cost of an SLI/Crossfire mobo and psu just seem to cancel out the attractiveness of two cheaper cards. If I did a dual gpu set up, i'd want it to be top of the line cards, and that's out of my price range. One day though...

I really appreciate the research you did on looking up parts. I had a few questions about some of the things you listed. Is there a reason why the RAM for the AMD set up is significantly more expensive than that of the Intel set up? Same capacity, but I don't see anything about the speed or timings, I know that AMD uses different timings and generally has very high timings and lower speeds as opposed to RAM for Intel builds which is lower timings and higher speeds (maybe I'm remembering this incorrectly, its been so long since I looked this up).

For the Hard Drive, OS, and DVD burner, those aren't part of my budgetary considerations as I have an older copy of Vista Professional laying around when I got Win7 on a educational discount. I'll most likely install win7 on the new rig and put Vista on the old one. Also, I'm fairly sure I have at least 3 or so copies of Windows XP laying around collecting dust somewhere. I have tons of spare drives, so that wouldn't be an issue either. Meaning...more money for other more important parts!

I'm not sure if anyone has heard of anything from Nvidia regarding new cards from them, but something in the past that I used to do from EVGA is to buy a pretty decent card from them, and use their step up program to keep my video card relevant with just paying for the incremental costs of new cards. I'm not sure if they still have this program, but it let me go from an 8800 GT to an 9800 GTX (when it was just released) for only a mere 60-70. Which was amazing. Do any other companies (for AMD/ATI) have a similar step-up program?

The only difference between the OCZ & Corsair ram I listed , is cost .Other than that , it's the same . Existing parts (OS, DVD burners , etc) always helps in lowering prices ! I'm using Vista Ultimate myself, via the advice of a friend . No complaints ! I do have a copy of XP around as well .

As far as your concerns about cooling an heat , That will depend on the case (ex:the design and number of fans) , & how fast the fan on the gpu runs . An example . I'm using the Antec 300 Illusion case , with an extra 120mm fan on the side(fans set on low) . That , coupled with the fan on my HD 4890 set at 50 % , runs at 42C on idle, & about 56 to 58C at load . My 9800 GTX+ SC runs at 38C idle , about 46C at load . Using good cable management (keeping your cable out of the way of the fans much as possible) , will help temps as well .

EVGA has a very nice step-up program for their cards . As for the other companies , I'm not sure . May be worth it to check !