Twitch Counters Popular CS:GO Streamer’s Lawsuit

DooKey

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 25, 2001
Messages
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James "Phantomlord" Varga, a popular streamer of CS: GO, filed suit earlier this year against Twitch for banning him from the service and breaching their contract. He says the company has caused his character to be misrepresented and he can no longer work his once full-time job of streaming to make money. He wants damages from Twitch, but the story doesn't end there because Twitch has filed a countersuit against the Phantomlord and they say he brought harm upon the company and they want compensatory damages. The bottom line is Twitch says he violated their Terms of Service and they were justified in letting him go. So now the parties go to court and we'll see if Twitch or the Phantomlord prevail in this case. If Twitch is correct about CS: GO skin gambling the Phantomlord might have to pay up. Otherwise, Phantomlord might get the golden parachute he's looking for.

Twitch’s code of conduct states that streams showcasing content that promotes “illegal activity, mail fraud, pyramid schemes or investment opportunities or advice not permitted by applicable law” are strictly prohibited. The company is arguing that those rules were in place when Varga signed his contract, and that he was therefore expected to abide by the rules in question.
 

RussianJ

Weaksauce
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Feb 10, 2012
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Twitch can absolutely be a real job just as acting on TV can be. This is going to be an interesting case to watch. If twitch wins it sets new precedence regarding gambling .
 

Saki630

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Aug 10, 2006
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I find it ridiculous that streaming games on twitch can replace a full time job. I understand there are outliers that have big sponsors on professional esports teams, and others with a large fan base bringing in $100k+ a month. They are the best in their respective markets where the esports player is growing his following by performing on the big stage and sharing advice with his fans on stream. The second biggest market has to be the people who have perfected their showmanship and can create engaging authentic original content that separates themselves from other gamers regardless if their skill is at the same level as a 'professional'.

To me that leaves a great majority who are not bringing home that money. If they are making $100k a year for the 10 years while enjoying their passion, great for them! But what happens after the passion is gone? the games suck? your fanbase drops?

Gaming can be fun and lucrative, but its just like any sport where the top players make the money and everyone else has to have a backup plan for the rest of their lives when they are unable to continue playing their best.

My point of view changed a few years ago when I could go on Craigslist and find many full streaming setups in the Bay Area selling whole sets of PC+Monitor+Mic+Peripherals of people who couldn't pay their bills by gaming or content creation alone.
 

cia1413

n00b
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Aug 15, 2012
Messages
57
I have heard of this.. but am still not entirely sure what it is. Can someone clarify?
In a casino you change money into chips for table games, hear you trade money for skins from steam for cs:go. They are then bet in whatever way the website has. You can then trade them back for cash or take the skins and add them to your steam account.
 

Exavior

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
9,700
This is a possible issue for anyone that relies on another service to make your living. If facebook went under tomorrow how many small businesses would have no site? If you rely on twitch or YouTube you are stuck with whatever they force and enforce.
 

katanaD

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In a casino you change money into chips for table games, hear you trade money for skins from steam for cs:go. They are then bet in whatever way the website has. You can then trade them back for cash or take the skins and add them to your steam account.


ahh, ok. So.. he was violating the terms of service by promoting a gambling website.


thanks
 

Business6

[H]ard|Gawd
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Oct 17, 2011
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1,854
I find it ridiculous that streaming games on twitch can replace a full time job. I understand there are outliers that have big sponsors on professional esports teams, and others with a large fan base bringing in $100k+ a month. They are the best in their respective markets where the esports player is growing his following by performing on the big stage and sharing advice with his fans on stream. The second biggest market has to be the people who have perfected their showmanship and can create engaging authentic original content that separates themselves from other gamers regardless if their skill is at the same level as a 'professional'.

To me that leaves a great majority who are not bringing home that money. If they are making $100k a year for the 10 years while enjoying their passion, great for them! But what happens after the passion is gone? the games suck? your fanbase drops?

Gaming can be fun and lucrative, but its just like any sport where the top players make the money and everyone else has to have a backup plan for the rest of their lives when they are unable to continue playing their best.

My point of view changed a few years ago when I could go on Craigslist and find many full streaming setups in the Bay Area selling whole sets of PC+Monitor+Mic+Peripherals of people who couldn't pay their bills by gaming or content creation alone.

Those top streamers should have a back up plan like anyone else because they're goddamn fools if they don't.

That's kind of the point, though: if you're someone who jumps into it expecting to make money you're an overly ambitious idiot. Delusions of grandeur strike every possible segment of a given market when there is an idea of "easy money" to be made and I personally know more than a few people who have tried it just to crash and burn. Yes, some people take off to the stratosphere in an incredibly short time while others need years to develop any semblance of community. There are so many variables to this that it's clearly a crapshoot as to whether or not it will ever be your main revenue stream. Just because you put money and time into it doesn't mean it'll ever go anywhere and that's the key factor that a lot of people don't understand but critics also don't understand that not everyone is trying to do that.

I have a job and stream on twitch and put videos up on youtube. I have subs, donations, etc and not once have I ever asked for someone to do anything for me because it's a hobby that happens to have some residual income to it over the last two and a half years. I've never requested money and have resisted donation goals and the like though, admittedly, the only way I'll do that is if people ask me to and only if it's strictly dedicated to the stream itself. If given the chance where streaming was becoming my main source of income I don't think I'd reduce my main job to anything lower than part time because aside from the need of wanting to get out of the house, carpal tunnel and other factors, I just don't trust it as a reliable source of income and never will.

But I do think you're looking at it in a bit of a narrow field of view. I can tell you from my discussions with other streamers and in job interviews that it's very much a point of interest or at least a passing curiosity even if it isn't entirely relevant to a job. Every in-person job interview I've had since I've started streaming it has come up. It's just another aspect of making an impression and a good friend of mine who no longer streams due to being swatted (yeah, long story and fucking terrifying) got a job in broadcasting with the Utah Jazz in part due to her experience streaming.
 

chameleoneel

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Messages
5,768
I find it ridiculous that streaming games on twitch can replace a full time job. I understand there are outliers that have big sponsors on professional esports teams, and others with a large fan base bringing in $100k+ a month. They are the best in their respective markets where the esports player is growing his following by performing on the big stage and sharing advice with his fans on stream. The second biggest market has to be the people who have perfected their showmanship and can create engaging authentic original content that separates themselves from other gamers regardless if their skill is at the same level as a 'professional'.

To me that leaves a great majority who are not bringing home that money. If they are making $100k a year for the 10 years while enjoying their passion, great for them! But what happens after the passion is gone? the games suck? your fanbase drops?

Gaming can be fun and lucrative, but its just like any sport where the top players make the money and everyone else has to have a backup plan for the rest of their lives when they are unable to continue playing their best.

My point of view changed a few years ago when I could go on Craigslist and find many full streaming setups in the Bay Area selling whole sets of PC+Monitor+Mic+Peripherals of people who couldn't pay their bills by gaming or content creation alone.
I think you are in fact, focusing too much on the 1% of streamers and video creators and the often publicized big money being made by those few.

Pretty much anywhere in the U.S. which isn't a major city or major suburb of a major city: you can live alright on like $2500 a month. Maybe less, if you don't maintain a personal vehicle.

its still pretty tough to earn that much from internet content/ads/donations, as your only revenue source. But there are people doing it. and since many employers are cutting benefits, keeping people part time, not offering retirements, etc-------such internet based revenue is totally a decent option.

As far as your supposed 10 year timeframe: well honestly, most of these streamers and content creators don't last that long. But even if they do.....its just like anyone at any other job. I've had several jobs in my life. In fact, I've never worked anywhere, for more than 4 years.

I'm currently developing a podcast. I don't delude to think I will ever make any reasonable money from the thing. But if I find myself making money from it a year from now, I would have no issue dropping one of my part time jobs.
 

ianken

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This guy had a "real job" folks. Entertaining people on twitch. I know several streamers and while they love to do what they love and make money, it is work. Particularly those who also do tutorial and review stuff beyond just live. Scripting, editing, shooting video. That's work.

THAT SAID, this guy is a total douche and Twitch is in the right here. He killed his golden goose by scamming folks with bullshit gambling sites that he owned. Is it any wonder Twitch banned this ass-hat? And now that Twitch is owned by Amazon: good fucking luck fighting that. He just picked a fight with the Death Star and he's no plucky moisture farmer.
 

oROEchimaru

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4,662
im on the fence either way...
a. its now going to be illegal in many ways to have loot boxes or items like this in games
b. so if he sold it/made profit or even lied to make profits.... shouldnt these companies be more worried about new laws/regulations (europe) making these items illegal in the first place?

granted... getting a sword in an mmorpg and selling it on ebay is against "game rules" but not "game"... and isnt too much different than skin. when i was a teen (before 18) i made $$ playing UO and am extremely thankful for that... it helped me build pcs back in the late 1990s and learn from tweak3d and hardocp around 2000 how to oc.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Messages
33,822
James needs to rethink his life and get a real job.

My thoughts exactly.

It always astonishes me that

a) Anyone wants to stream this shit

b) anyone wants to watch this shit; and

c) there's actually money in it.


Streaming is a cancer on the I ternet and is harming gaming. The more of them go down in flames, the better.
 

Nolan7689

[H]ard|Gawd
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Messages
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My thoughts exactly.

It always astonishes me that

a) Anyone wants to stream this shit

b) anyone wants to watch this shit; and

c) there's actually money in it.


Streaming is a cancer on the I ternet and is harming gaming. The more of them go down in flames, the better.

On your last statement I kind of disagree. Purely because a lot of people do the extra life charity stream and raise a ton of money for Children’s Hospitals around the country.

Otherwise yeah I more or less agree. I dislike the whole culture a lot of streamers subscribe too. I do though actually enjoy the occasional let’s play though from certain people. Being informative or very creative in putting their own spin into something. I’ll watch LPs of games I’ve played if that’s the case.
 

sirmonkey1985

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
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Messages
22,230
Twitch can absolutely be a real job just as acting on TV can be. This is going to be an interesting case to watch. If twitch wins it sets new precedence regarding gambling .


i've been following this shit since it started.. the issues with phantomlord are not recent either, this has been going on for some time between twitch and him.. fact is he's fucked and twitch will easily win this case while also bankrupting him of the money he's stolen through various pyromid scheme's he's done over the last couple years.
 

debaucher

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If I remember it correctly, it wasn't just the fact that he was promoting a cs:go gambling site, but was actually running it (owned it) behind the scenes with multiple accounts to fix the gambling outcome and make himself a TON of $$.

When it was found out that he was using dummy accounts to raise the price of skins and to make it look like he was making less (and not the owner of the company/site) that is when he was found in breach of contract and (possibly liable) for other offenses related to bet fixing.
 

Dekoth-E-

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I love how judgmental all the hypocrites are in this thread when it comes to streamers. Guess what, Entertainment is entertainment. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it less of a job. If y ou watch TV, Movies or listen to radio you are a hypocrite and need to shut your ignorant mouth. You can go ahead and throw out the stupid argument of "Well, sure 1% are successful, but what about all the others?". Yea well guess what..how many actors, actresses and musicians do you think actually make it? I'll give you a hint, Thousands don't for every one that does. So take your real job nonsense and go sit on your front porch being angry but silent.

As for PL..he is a class A douchenozzle, I hope he loses.
 

katanaD

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If I remember it correctly, it wasn't just the fact that he was promoting a cs:go gambling site, but was actually running it (owned it) behind the scenes with multiple accounts to fix the gambling outcome and make himself a TON of $$.

When it was found out that he was using dummy accounts to raise the price of skins and to make it look like he was making less (and not the owner of the company/site) that is when he was found in breach of contract and (possibly liable) for other offenses related to bet fixing.



ahhh, ok. I had a feeling there was something more to it all.. i mean for twitch to counter sue, there was something more to it all.
 

Ragenrok

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Messages
4,451
I love how judgmental all the hypocrites are in this thread when it comes to streamers. Guess what, Entertainment is entertainment. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it less of a job. If y ou watch TV, Movies or listen to radio you are a hypocrite and need to shut your ignorant mouth. You can go ahead and throw out the stupid argument of "Well, sure 1% are successful, but what about all the others?". Yea well guess what..how many actors, actresses and musicians do you think actually make it? I'll give you a hint, Thousands don't for every one that does. So take your real job nonsense and go sit on your front porch being angry but silent.

As for PL..he is a class A douchenozzle, I hope he loses.
100% this, it flabbergasts me how stupid this tech forum gets when you mention YouTube or twitch streamers, time to accept that they are this generations version of a tv star or just go back to telling kids to get off your lawn and let us enjoy our technology
 

Dekoth-E-

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100% this, it flabbergasts me how stupid this tech forum gets when you mention YouTube or twitch streamers, time to accept that they are this generations version of a tv star or just go back to telling kids to get off your lawn and let us enjoy our technology

It is the same old tired arguments that happened when Movies first came "Get a real job, Real actors are on stage", then TV "Get a real job, Real actors are on the big screen", and large music groups..etc etc etc. How little entertainment would this world have if all the entertainers had listened to the "Get a real job" crowd.
 
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