Turn on stove, Computer shuts down

Discussion in 'Power Supplies' started by Caffeinated, Dec 1, 2006.

  1. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is a very very strange situation. Every time I turn on the stove, the PC shuts down.

    I am putting this in power supplies, because it is power related, but at this point, I suspect that it's the 6800 GT that is causing the problems.

    Last night, I put a supposedly dead PS in, put in a 6600 (which I know draws a lot less power) so that I could finish watching the movie that was so painfully interrupted when I fired up the stove to make dinner. This is the third time that turning on the stove has caused my PS/Video card combination. The reason that I suspect the video card is that this is the third system that it has been in (with completely different parts) that had problems coming up.

    Okay, I have threads here and here .

    Yes, I do need a new power supply I guess because it's a crappy brand, but is it possible that the root cause of this whole mess is the video card? I realize that it draws more power, but I'm at a loss as to why turning on the stove (which is in a different part of the house) affects the PC.

    Right now, I have an el cheapo PS and the 6600 in the PC. It worked with the stove on, which is nice. It sucks, though, for games.

    My ultimate goal is to get an 8800 GTS, but I've been waiting for price drops, and frankly, I'd like to get the box stable before putting in a much more expensive card. I'm now starting to believe, though, that no matter what PS I put in, it is going to crap out with the 6800 GT.

    I'd deeply appreciate input from some of the PS gurus to help me pin down this issue.

    Do you think that with a better PS (It's a highend Rosewill - yes, I now know it's a crap brand, but it's the top of the line of their crap line and it's fine if the stove is off) I can get this thing stable? If so, I'm thinking I need something of higher wattage (or am I off the mark) than what was recommended in the other thread (XCilio GoodPower 500 was recommended).

    I have in this box a non-OC'd San Diego 4000+, 2 GB RAM, 2 SATA drives, M-Audio 5.1 sound, DVD-RW, and eventually a Geforce 8800 GTS.

    Has anyone seen a video card cause problems like I describe because of it having issues? Or do you think that ultimately it's a PS problem, and I will get a new one and the problems will all solved if I put the Geforce 6800 GT back in with a new PS?

    I'm getting a new PS today. I will be ordering from Newegg. It would be nice to be able to use the 6800 GT until I can get the 8800 (waiting for price drops). I will be returning what I have. I am willing to spend ~$85. Is the XCilio still the best option, or should I get something else? I'd like to get something powerful enough so that I don't have a revisit of this problem.

    Thanks for any ideas. It is greatly appreciated, and I will be getting a new PS today.
     
  2. synaps3

    synaps3 Gawd

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    Whoa, that is really wierd. Have you tried putting your computer on a seperate breaker than the one your stove is on? I am thinking it is probably not do with your video card, but maybe your house's wiring. I've never heard of anything like this before though, so it is hard to say...
     
  3. Riddlinkidstoner

    Riddlinkidstoner [H]ardness Supreme

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    Is your stove electric?

    Make sure your computer is plugged into a surge protector not directly into the outlet.
    Try a new power cable also...could have weak shielding.

    If you want a new PSU, save up a bit more cash and get something better...Corsair only $20-30 more away.
     
  4. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes, it is. It is on a different breaker. That' s why this is so f'ing strange.

    I'm getting a new PS today. I'd like to order from the egg since I can get it fedex. I'm willing to spend (though I don't want to, of course) maybe up to 100. I just can't spend more than that.

    Does the watt rating mean anything these days? I know that you have to look at amperes put out on the 12V rails, too, but it seems like this is a murky area, as well.

    The corsair recommended in another thread (a few below mine) for a GTX is 520 watts, though I'll be going with a GTS. I also believe, and this could be off the mark, but I honestly believe, that corsair stuff is over priced. I don't need modular, lights or quiet. It could sound like a jet and be uglier than sin and at this point if it powers my stuff without problems, I don't care.
     
  5. lopoetve

    lopoetve Imhotep

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  6. synaps3

    synaps3 Gawd

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    lol.

    I wonder if it could be some sort of EMI coming from the stove...
     
  7. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ha ha.

    Yes, I do cook, though I am not wild about it ;). I'm not the greatest cook in the world, but we do eat decently at my house. Oh well.

    Could it be EMI being in a totally different room?

    Hell, now that I think about it, we may just all be eating pizza for a week. They can all just take vitamins for all I care until I get this solved...LOL.

    Anyway, back on to the show, it doesn't need to be modular, have lights, or be quiet. Personally, I think Corsair stuff is overpriced, but that's not necessarily a highly educated opinion.
     
  8. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    I went with the XClio Greatpower 550W ($99). GoodPower was out of stock.

    I hope this will eventually power an 8800. I'm going to get this, send the Rosewill back, and then put the 6800 GT back into the system. If it dies again with this new PS when I turn the damn stove on, there will be no doubt in my mind that it's the video card. That's really the only thing that I can do at this point to eliminate the PS as another variable.
     
  9. Dew

    Dew 2[H]4U

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    Something could be fubar with your house wiring and the stove could be causing too much of a voltage drop. Any UPS with AVR should compensate for that.
     
  10. Copyright

    Copyright [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ive been doing electrical work for a long time and your problem sounds strange..I would think your stove is on its own seperate 220 circuit breaker. Id get someone who knows what they are doing to go in and tighten all the breakers, grounds, nuetrals and main line up inside the breaker box. If your problem keeps happening id get a solid 20 amp curcuit ran strait to the computer with 12 guage and that should cure your problem. Something else id check is to see if the plug you are using has been back stabbed. Its possible your getting a weak nuetral that can cause all kinds of strange problems. If it is.. kill the power on the house and put in a new plug... use the screws on the sides and dont backstab it. Good luck!
     
  11. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    Stove is on it's own seperate 220, Copyright, you are correct.

    I've worked with servers for years, I've seen strange things.

    Anyway, I'm going to try with the new PS. Maybe the one I have now is so crappy that any little current fluctuation causes it to have problems.

    A UPS is a good idea, which for whatever reason, I hadn't thought of. I'm definitely going to look into getting one before putting the 8800 in.

    Any ideas on a good, inexpensive one?
     
  12. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    IMHO, do those steps in order :

    1- Wait to receive the new PSU and do the test with the stove.

    2- If the same issue arise again, get a UPS to clean the current.

    3- If you get the issue, it's a good idea to ask a electrician to check the breaker box since there may be some bad load balancing or bad current isolation in the box. Something about bad grounding somewhere in the house circuitry.
     
  13. Overwind

    Overwind [H]Lite

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    It sounds like there's something wrong with the electrical system in your house. Check that your AC line voltage isn't dipping below 110 when the stove comes on.

    If you do have bad power, then the typical cheapie offline UPS won't help much. You'll need a line conditioner--or a UPS with a built-in line conditioner--instead.
     
  14. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    The house is less than 5 years old, so I don't think it's a wiring issue. The electrical contractor that did the wiring on our house is good, and has done a lot of homes in this area (which is a nice area with some fairly expensive homes).

    You never know, though.

    I'm now convinced that this Rosewill piece of shit is dead. It won't power up the box even with the 6600 in it, though it just seems weird that it has died twice when the stove came on.

    The PS that's in the box right now, and working with the 6600 is the one that came with the case, so there are really no surprises there that it can't power the 6800 GT. It also worked for a day or so with the 6800 GT in the box. Unfortunately, I have misplaced the molex->PCI Express cable, so at present, I couldn't test it if I wanted to. I believe it died after the stove was turned on, but thinking back, I'm not 100% certain of that. Again, it's no big surprise though, since it is a Certified™ Cheap Piece of Crap.

    Seems weird though that, every time this video card goes into a system, that system seems to die. It's been in two SFF boxes (one a Shuttle XPS the other a Soltek QBase - both with Prescotts) that bit the dust and wouldn't power up. Of course, neither of those had phenomenally powerful power supplies, either.
     
  15. Copyright

    Copyright [H]ardness Supreme

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    Keep us posted on this... id like to know what you find out.
     
  16. Rhentno

    Rhentno 2[H]4U

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    I used to have kinda the same situation only mine was with my lady's hairdryer, lol. I had a guy come and check my lines and found one that was wired incorrectly. That seems to have fixed the issue. I "found" the issue initially when I plugged in my UPS and it indicated that something was amiss with the wiring...it has a light built-in that comes on when there are wring issues. I haven't had any issue after fixing that problem and buying UPS's for all of my machines. Last couple I got were on sale at Microcenter and Compusa.
     
  17. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    This made me realize one thing you can do very easily... Go to a hardware store and buy a outlet tester, which is a 3 prong thing with 3 lights to check if the polarity is reversed or not and if the outlet is well grounded. Even with a good electrician, there is bound to be some distractions and one wire is not done correctly, causing issues all over the electrical network.
     
  18. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    That certainly is a sensible idea. I will do that this weekend. It would well and truly suck if it turns out that the house has been killing power supplies.

    Also, when I get the new power supply, I'll let you guys know.

    You know, freaking power supplies ought to be built to some sort of standard. I'm against too much regulation but the situation with power supplies is ridiculous. People's stuff gets destroyed, and even worse, people could die from fires started by these horrible things.

    There should be at least some way of marking them as "certified to deliver at least XXX Watts at such-and-such realistic normal operating temperature" rather than the guessing game that we have right now.
     
  19. Conano

    Conano Limp Gawd

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    Tag --- I'm Curiouse on this.
     
  20. hardc0re

    hardc0re Gawd

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    how is it the PS's fault if you house's wiring is defective?
    the specifications you're looking for are stated in the PS's manual.
     
  21. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    It isn't the PS fault if the house has bad wiring, nor would I blame the PS if that turns out to be the case.

    I don't even have to look in the manual - it's printed on the label affixed to the side of the PS. I DO however doubt that it's accurate, or is at least checked at some ridiculously low temperature that it will not ever operate at, and that is misrepresentation.

    Obviously I'm not alone in having trouble with a power supply. There's a forum full of posts from people with piece of shit power supplies having problems, though they are rated at much higher than they really are. I just regret that I have joined their number!
     
  22. Overwind

    Overwind [H]Lite

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    People have so many problems with PSUs because most PSUs on the market today--regardless of price--are utter crap. There are many fewer problems with quality PSUs from the likes of Seasonic.
     
  23. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    I hope that the Xclio Greatpower that I bought (XCLIO GREATPOWER X14S4P3 550W) is better.

    So far, with the crap PS that came with the case, minus the 6800GT, I haven't had problems. I will test things today, but the real proof is going to happen when I get the new PS in.

    Do any of the PS gurus here think that a flaky video card could cause this...I don't know, by pulling too much power or by being incorrectly regulated or something?

    Maybe I'm grasping at straws. I've just had a lot of problems and I'm eager to pin down the problem. I'm beginning to think that it isn't exactly one problem, though, but rather a collection of them.

    Thanks to everyone that has offered so many great suggestions. I really appreciate it.
     
  24. EdLSmith

    EdLSmith Limp Gawd

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    The problem sounds somewhat familiar. Your house feedline is two phase plus neutral. If the Neutral becomes open since your stove is 220VAC it would cause an imbalance on the external house circuits resulting in cross results such as the computer shuts down when you turn on the stove. It can seriously damage Compressors (refridgerator, AC, Heat pump) and such. Power company can check it for you. Call and describe what is occurring. You can mostly operate the house without many problems when this occurs so don't think it is great problem, just irritating.


    Good Luck.
     
  25. Kherozene

    Kherozene Limp Gawd

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    stoves should be on their own circuit because they draw so much power.
     
  26. Overwind

    Overwind [H]Lite

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    @Kherozene: In the US, electric stoves of nontrivial size will be on their own circuit unless the electrician who wired everything was completely incompetent. It's against the NEC to hook up a regular outlet to a circuit rated over 20 amps. The typical kitchen stove is rated at 30 A or more.

    @EdL: I don't think the OP has an open neutral. If did, his house would have burned down already. Open neutrals are real bad news.
     
  27. hardc0re

    hardc0re Gawd

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    just watch that u dont blow up ur new PS when u turn on the stove. lol.
     
  28. nobody_here

    nobody_here [H]ardForum Junkie

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    definitely has nothing to do with your PC PSU, it's a house wiring issue, or even a possibility that you just don't have enough power at the main to support all those things being on at once, many houses that are older were built with 100 Amp mains, my last house came with a 200 Amp main, which is much better for handling loads
     
  29. Overwind

    Overwind [H]Lite

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    If you attempt to overload your electrical service the main breakers will trip. This is a rather noticable event as most or all of your electricity will go out.

    Further, a single PC doesn't draw anywhere near enough power to be at any reasonable risk of tripping the main breaker in a house. A 100 amp electrical service can provide 24KW. The most power hungry 'xtreme' PC isn't going to pull more than 750W out of the wall.
     
  30. nobody_here

    nobody_here [H]ardForum Junkie

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    but if the PC's outlet is on the same circuit as the stove (which it shouldn't be, but is conceivable), the two loads combined with who knows what else is on the same circuit could be enough to trip that circuit, once the last item is turned on

    in this little place i am in now, if i have the microwave and coffee maker running at the same time, they will only run together for maybe a minute, and then that circuit breaker pops and i have to reset it and leave one off until the other is done
     
  31. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's comforting :eek:

    I'm waiting for my Xclio Greatpower at this point. I will then turn the stove on , etc., and then I guess, we'll see.

    It could be a coincidence, though it is really strange that it happened twice when I turned on the stove (maybe three times, but I can't say for certain about the first time, because now I plainly don't remember).
     
  32. Rhentno

    Rhentno 2[H]4U

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    Gee Caf, I really can't vouch for that PSU you're getting. Has anyone else used this brand of PSU? As far as I can tell, PC Power and Cooling used to be the best one money could buy. I have read about recent products that are being introduced that are made by a different company but carry the PC P&C name that are not as well made. I have had very good luck with my Antec's but I can only remotely reccomend them as I've read plenty of threads of bad PSU's from them. I have also read that Seasonic is a decent brand as well. I do recall the electrician using the three pronged tester to check the lines and the one closest to the Breaker box was the culprit. The prior owners had installed a breaker plug (like the ones in bathrooms by the sink) in the garage and had wired it incorrectly. Really hoping you figure it out, good luck.
     
  33. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks for the wish for luck, Rhento. The Xclio was recommended here and here . This is where I *should* have looked in the first place before buying, but of course, we all know how well hindsight works.

    I did have to get the Greatpower instead of the Goodpower because the Goodpower was out of stock at Newegg, and I needed to get it from somewhere that delivers Fedex. If I wait on UPS to deliver something in my area, I'm as likely to not get it at all as I am to get it looking like it was trampled by elephants.
     
  34. Overwind

    Overwind [H]Lite

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    If you have bad wiring then turning on the stove could disrupt your power enough to upset a PSU. I'm just saying that undersized an electrical service or open neutral isn't the kind of bad wiring that could be responsible. There are still plenty of other ways your wiring could be bad.
     
  35. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    See, this is what worries me. While I'm not an electrician by any means, it does seem to me that it is possible that somehow this could be causing it. Doesn't it just seem like too big of a coincidence that this has happened twice when I turned on the stove?

    OTOH, though, it *hasn't* happened since I took the 6800GT out of there and had it running on a piece of crap PS. I did use the stove yesterday. Again, that video card has been in three different systems that have all ultimately had similar problems.

    Maybe the two things in concert (stove + flaky video card) are enough to cause the problem?
     
  36. Copyright

    Copyright [H]ardness Supreme

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    Get the new PSU yet? And to the posters above an open or loose nuetral does not mean the house will burn down.... ive fixed many houses with nuetral problems (dad owns electrical company) been helping the family biz for over 12 years. You mentioned you had a good electrician which means he wouldnt have back stabbed the house (I hope) and he wouldnt have undersized your panel. It might be a pain but try setting up your pc in the dining room.. it should be wired on its own 20amp circuit.
     
  37. BillParrish

    BillParrish [H]ardness Supreme

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    er, UL for death/fires
    CB for tolerances on voltage and ripple/noise.

    and those are just the basics the TTUV (German standards) are very strict on safety design.

    Use Neweggs close up photos of the side panel to check what standards/safety approvals a supply has before you buy it regardless of where you buy it from ;)
     
  38. -(Xyphox)-

    -(Xyphox)- [H]ardness Supreme

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    wow that truly is a new strange one on me.. I have seen some weird things in my day but this is gets a notch for something new. Lets hope its just the PSU and not the house. Though is there a local PC store that could test the PSU and see if any of the lines are bad in it? Might let you know if its the PSU or the house.
     
  39. sn3ak3rp1mp

    sn3ak3rp1mp [H]Lite

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    I have to lean towards the other posters who mentioned internal home wiring issues. I would imagine that any PSU, regardless of brand, would typically be more sensitive to voltage drops, over / undercurrent conditions, etc. than other appliances in the house.

    Granting you the statements about the PSU being crap, I still would have focused on purchasing one of the cheap home wiring testers, a voltmeter, or hiring an electrician before ordering another PSU. I'd be extremely interested to see the results of a voltmeter plugged into the exact same socket you typically use for the computer having issues, watching the meter while having someone else turn on the stove.

    I guess my bottom line point would be this: Even if the existing PSU did have issues, was dying, a POS, etc... you have some strange electrical condition or possibly a fault in your home. For your own safety an the safety of others, for God's sake please investigate the potential problem. PLEASE don't stop at just replacing the PSU, even if the new one works fine. None of us want to see a fellow forum member injured / killed.

    Cheers!
     
  40. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well, so far, I've had the 6800 GT and the new Xclio PS in for 2 days, with the stove going and the heater kicking on and off (rather than the A/C). I live in the Deep South, so it just got cold enough to even think about needing the heater. I know I had the A/C going before the last couple of weeks.

    I have not had issues yet, but I'm still uncomfortable with the coincidence that this happened twice (maybe 3 times) when I turned on the stove. It just seems kind of odd that I can load the hell out of the box for several hours, and then suddenly it dies two times in a row when I turn on the stove, but I guess that's why it's called a coincidence, and not just some thing that happened once.

    That's kind of why I posted here, because this is not an area where I have a lot of knowledge, and I wondered if others thought that there could indeed be a problem, or if I'm just paranoid.

    I doubt that I'm going to be satisfied until I check it out.

    Could someone link one of these home power testers that have been referred to? I'd really appreciate it. If they aren't that expensive, the peace of mind would be worth the price.

    My area was devastated by Katrina, too, so maybe it isn't outside the realm of possibility that this has something to do with it? When I say devastated, we didn't even have running water for 3 1/2 weeks. It was like Christmas time to actually be able to flush the toilets again. Power was down for close to a month, though we did run the necessities off of a small gas powered generator. I live on the MS Gulf Coast, and though Katrina was a good year and a half ago, we still are not even close to recovered.

    If there are surges due to the damage (I don't know, I'm totally guessing here), is there some way to "clean it up?"