Traffic Engineers’ Epic Fail

[sirmonkey1985]

I've seen enhanced pedestrian crossings with "in-use" activation lights seem to be well received. Ex.

You might have to post a cop to kick people in the crotch until they actually learn they have to stop for the pedestrians though.

we had those here but got rid of them in favor of overhanging yellow lights which work great.. the ones on the ground are damn near impossible to see at night if it's raining.

 

[geok1ng]

the best solution are wide and tall street bumps on the crossing, and fixed radar 80m before the crossing.

As Budha, Jesus and Gandhi said:
Só a violência gera compreensão.

Only violence breeds comprehension.

 

[Armenius]

I'm pretty sure we all drive much faster than 25mph when passing a school zone. However, most of us have the common decency to slow down in the morning and afternoon when the the kids are coming to and leaving school.

I think having a 25mph sign does help. Reason being that most people will slow down and when they do, that in term should help slow down traffic including those that usually speed through it.

My city has an almost exact replica of the one shown in the article. We installed a traffic light for crossing between schools and a posted speed limit of 25mph. Often times, there will be the presence of a police car in plain sight when both schools are out. 99% of the time, we are all zipping along between 40mph and 50mph when there is no traffic.

Speak for yourself. I drop down to exactly 20 MPH in an active school zone.

 

[MrDeaf]

i lost count of how many kids I see everyday crossing the street with their eyes buried in their phone.


oh, and this is the best crosswalk signage.....

RR Xing

And some people still miss the signage, the blaring sirens and the train's horn...
Or try and beat the train

The problem with reduced school zone speed limits is that 90% of the time they don't really apply. Since there are only kids present for at most, a cumulative hour per day , drivers get trained to ignore school zones. It's been proven time and time again, that the majority of people will simply drive at the speed they feel comfortable, regardless of speed limit.

I'm in the 'fix the pedestrian' camp. There's no reason to have a crosswalk in the middle of an arterial. It should be moved to the nearest intersection, where drivers already expect to stop.

We have these in Ontario. They work great, for the most part.

Until you start to go out to the rural areas, where the roads are designed for 40mph and there are constant red light runners and people ignoring the flashing lights...

I am more partial to adding in some chicanes.

 

[Lenard]

Easily solved by better signage, putting in a signal, and putting a couple speed "humps" that force cars to slow down.

If they do not want to impede traffic they can put in a walkway/bridge, and fence off the sidewalks so kids cannot jaywalk.

 

[Gigus Fire]

And some people still miss the signage, the blaring sirens and the train's horn...
Or try and beat the train



We have these in Ontario. They work great, for the most part.

Until you start to go out to the rural areas, where the roads are designed for 40mph and there are constant red light runners and people ignoring the flashing lights...

I am more partial to adding in some chicanes.

I don't understand this at all.
Flashing yellow means use caution in almost every part of the world. Why would anyone set these up when people are crossing? Why not have a green/yellow/red that's tied to a sensor or button push?
Red lights have been ingrained into driving behavior for almost 100 years. Changing up stuff now for unknown reasons is just plain stupid and dangerous.

 

[Todd Walter]

Cobblestone parts on the road work pretty good to reduce car traveling speeds. There are a lot of ignorant or distracted drivers, lights and sounds sometimes don't grab their attention, such as in car entertainment items in full blast or disable auditory attention (from being used to too much traffic noise) for example. I think cars with GPS should have attention grabbing warnings when near school districts while in a high rate of speed, speaking of which, don't school areas have a speed limit of 15mph?

My Garmin has this feature. It pops a large notice when the speed limit changes. Not much use since I don't need a GPS to navigate my neighbourhood but for the cars with nav systems it would be worth doing (if they ever stop blocking OTA updates for said system.)

 

[Todd Walter]

meanwhile in other countries, engineers had learned to add speed bumps at student crossing ever since speed bumps were introduced.

somehow the rest of the world had also figured out how to build pedestrian bridges.

Does the rest of the world have snowfall that's measured in feet? Speed humps are hard on snow plows and bridges would need to be de-iced or end up closed in the winter.

 

[Exavior]

The issue has nothing to do with better signs or anything else. Drivers just don't pay attention. We need to come up with ways to fix them not the roads or signs.

 

[Todd Walter]

I don't understand this at all.
Flashing yellow means use caution in almost every part of the world. Why would anyone set these up when people are crossing? Why not have a green/yellow/red that's tied to a sensor or button push?
Red lights have been ingrained into driving behavior for almost 100 years. Changing up stuff now for unknown reasons is just plain stupid and dangerous.

It's pretty normal here and, not visible in that photo, the new ones illuminate the crosswalk beneath them so you can see people in it at night.

 

[Frobozz]

we had those here but got rid of them in favor of overhanging yellow lights which work great.. the ones on the ground are damn near impossible to see at night if it's raining.

I guess the one in the picture isn't quite as tricked out as the one I'm thinking of in my town. It has face melting level LED strobe blocks on top of the centerer light and two at the sides. You certainly can't miss it when it's going off. I also think that's a notable difference as well - ours only blinks and melts faces when it's activated by a pedestrian pushing a button. That way your town drivers don't become desensitized by driving through a crossing with flashers repeatedly with no pedestrians to the point they start to assume they're not there.

Overall, it's completely a problem with car culture in the US. There's a disconnect that happens when you get in a vehicle where most drivers forget the physics involved in what they're doing, and they lose compassion for other humans around them. I'm not sure on all the psychological aspects involved, but I think that's where most of the road problems lie.

 

[Zedicus]

the sig of Frobozz is the thing that i try to remember (the second line). Look 'right of way' 'Car culture' 'law' none of those should be what you rely upon to keep yourself alive.
when engaging activity that involves a street ACT LIKE YOU ARE INVISIBLE because when you get hit they will say they didnt see you anyway.
this means do not assume they will stop. do not misuse your 'right of way.' and ALWAYS remember the most lug nuts wins if you do decide to play chicken.

so yeah, i guess i agree, natural selection.

 

[Frobozz]

the sig of Frobozz is the thing that i try to remember (the second line). Look 'right of way' 'Car culture' 'law' none of those should be what you rely upon to keep yourself alive.
when engaging activity that involves a street ACT LIKE YOU ARE INVISIBLE because when you get hit they will say they didnt see you anyway.
this means do not assume they will stop. do not misuse your 'right of way.' and ALWAYS remember the most lug nuts wins if you do decide to play chicken.

so yeah, i guess i agree, natural selection.

"What's wrong with you - are you blind?!!" -- You just might be.

The problem with chalking it up to natural selection is that you don't know how that's going to breed out.. maybe we're promoting a bunch of on-edge paranoid people who become angry when they get in their vehicle as the most favorable traits.

While it does ultimately come down to "doesn't matter who is at fault when you ded, bro." I think there are things we should recognize as being really weird when you think about them.

• No reoccurring testing after age 16 - this would refresh people and make them aware of how to interact with new road devices.. like how I had never seen a round about or clue how to work in one. bike lanes are also seemingly odd for some drivers. There's also a catch for elderly people who should no longer be operating a motor vehicle.
• public funding for personal storage - (wait.. what?) we're completely ok with parking cars on the street. If I were to park a boat or a cargo container in front of my house, all of a sudden we have a problem, but for some reason a car is an acceptable personal property to spend public funds providing parking for.
• over aggressive parking minimums impacting city development - Everything built seems to have to have swaths of land allocated to pavement for vehicle storage. This makes seas of parking between businesses, added expense for the budding small business, and makes for a less walkable town. Compare walking around your traditional downtown vs the new walmart oriented strip mall sprall. The store density of the traditional downtown square is much more enjoyable.
• dehumanization through vehicles (not really sure what to call this) - stated a post or so above, but people get weird behind the wheel. It's not a new phenomena either. Here's Goofy from the 50's

I try to not get preachy, but we have some funny ideas and behaviors built around the automobile.

 

[ccwilder3]

While I have no problem with a lower speed at school zones, I do have a problem with building new schools on a main artery.

 

[Unter Dog]

I have a 4 lane near me that has cross walks between blocks. It is a death trap at best.

Flashing lights at a min and if its a school zone an overpass makes sense. Kids are oblivious and so are most american drivers.

 

[Zedicus]

i've seen Idiocracy, i know exactly how it will pan out. we are so close to it now that i do not think this country is salvageable. and i secretly hope skyrocketing crypto causes the power grids to crumble and de-values whats left of the worlds currencies.

bring on the self created FUD based apocalypse. (wow, how did i get there from a crappie cross walk design?)

 

[PCMusicGuy]

It's sad that a kid lost his life. Obviously it is a poorly designed area in general.

In the Houston area, we typically have signs with flashing lights that only flash during the school hours when speeding is applicable. Otherwise there is no lights and the times are listed when the lower limit is applicable. For elementary and middle schools, we have adults with stop signs that stand at the crosswalks and allow the children to walk with them across the walk when it is safe. I believe this only applies for elementary and some middle schools. I think that is a pretty good solution.

Phones are perhaps just a big a problem with pedestrians walking as people driving in general, but for jr high and high school kids we rarely ever see issues that would result in injury or death. The biggest issues we have are traffic congestion because of the quarter mile long queue of cars to pickup their kids because the overprotective parents don't want their kids to ride the bus or walk the quarter to half mile home.

 

[bildad]

Think of the children! I do, I think about weeding the stupid ones out as early as possible. I say leave it.

 

[Gasaraki_]

boo hoo. Natural selection proves itself to be true?

School zones should NOT have lower speed limits. It's amazing that in every country but ours kids have no fucking problem taking a mass-transit that everyone else does (subway, train, rail, etc...) and can make their entire trip to school ON FOOT - but yet we can't even have kids walk 2 blocks to school without safety guidance the whole fucking way. Get bent.

We are the only country where our pedestrians are such pompous assholes - that they deliberately start moving in front of vehicles (and with no right-of-way) with the incredible assumption that they will be seen and driver will know (or care) to stop. Way to turn do a complete 180 on survival of the fittest.

Yeah I know right? Fuck babies and children. If they can't be born ready to gather their own food or cross the street they should just get the Darwin awards. Humanity is holding back natural selection. /s

 

[Exavior]

Everyone keeps talking about this one kid, but the article is talking about all roads in general. This article states that the issue is that roads are designed wrong and that need to change. That by making roads straight with enough space for cars to drive down them you are inviting people to drive however fast they can. So instead we should narrow every road out there to the point that it is barely safe to drive down without hitting on coming traffic so that we can make everyone drive really slow and thus make the roads safer. His research showed the people speed and drive at whatever speed they want based on how safe they thought the road was, so we need to make all roads more hazardous so that people drive slower. Problem is that most people don't care about that either and you will just increase accidents by other means because they will try to force their car through the narrow space.

 

[Lenard]

Everyone keeps talking about this one kid, but the article is talking about all roads in general. This article states that the issue is that roads are designed wrong and that need to change. That by making roads straight with enough space for cars to drive down them you are inviting people to drive however fast they can. So instead we should narrow every road out there to the point that it is barely safe to drive down without hitting on coming traffic so that we can make everyone drive really slow and thus make the roads safer. His research showed the people speed and drive at whatever speed they want based on how safe they thought the road was, so we need to make all roads more hazardous so that people drive slower. Problem is that most people don't care about that either and you will just increase accidents by other means because they will try to force their car through the narrow space.

We just need to make all roads really steep and uphill. Cars can then brake in much shorter distances, saving lives. All crosswalks should be at the peak of the road.

 

[sparks]

I think each child should be assigned a police office to escort them across the intersection.
If you drive within 2 miles of a school there will be men with german accents asking for your papers.
Maybe a 10 foot barrier on both sides of the walk will work.

DAMN people. How about putting up a sign telling the kids to look both ways before crossing and be on the lookout for traffic?
You can't do everything for everyone all the time.

Was the drive talking on their cell phone, or playing with the radio?
Outlaw cellphones while driving....NO WAY

 

[Exavior]

We just need to make all roads really steep and uphill. Cars can then brake in much shorter distances, saving lives. All crosswalks should be at the peak of the road.

What about intersections and other traffic? They are trying to solve the issue that all roads are dangerous and designed to allow you to go over 20mph. We need to fix that so that no road allows you to go over 10 - 20 mph so that there will never again be a person killed by being hit by a car nor will any car take that much damage during an accident. Since people won't drive the speed limit we need to design roads that make it impossible to move period...

 

[Frobozz]

Brainstorming - What if we used our smart car know how to make it so that cars can only go up to the speed limit? Surely Google knows the speed limits in different segments of road.

 

[Exavior]

Brainstorming - What if we used our smart car know how to make it so that cars can only go up to the speed limit? Surely Google knows the speed limits in different segments of road.

Step that up one, taser built into the driver seat with probes at different locations. Go X over the speed limit determined by GPS and that knowledge of speed limit there. 2 locations on the seat give you a 25,000V zap. If you continue at that speed limit bump that up to 35,000V from all locations. If you still continue 50,000v none stop.

 

[TwistedAegis]

Does the rest of the world have snowfall that's measured in feet?

Nope, because they use the metric system

 

[opfreak]

Huh...ever try to cross the crosswalk pushing a double long stroller? Yeah. Fuck. You.
I can't believe I'm am actually saying this, but it is important to have a lower speed limit around schools. Children are dumb, and don't understand that a car/truck can't always see you and stop on a dime. Am I raising my kiddos to be cognisant of their surroundings, and have heightened situational awareness? Yup, no snowflakes in my home. That said, where is the signage? Even a blinking yellow light indicating school activity would be nice...que lawsuit in 3...2...1

triggered.

 

[nilepez]

The problem with reduced school zone speed limits is that 90% of the time they don't really apply. Since there are only kids present for at most, a cumulative hour per day , drivers get trained to ignore school zones. It's been proven time and time again, that the majority of people will simply drive at the speed they feel comfortable, regardless of speed limit.

I'm in the 'fix the pedestrian' camp. There's no reason to have a crosswalk in the middle of an arterial. It should be moved to the nearest intersection, where drivers already expect to stop.

You can pretty easily put up lights that flash when the speed is lower. I see that all the time and it works.

 

[jedijeb13]

The article mentions that there have been studies done in which drivers will reliably ignore the posted speed limit based on things like the width of the street and other markings. I don't think a 25mph zone would have helped given the evidence put forth by the writer. (However there are no citations to back up those claims...)

I have to drive through a school zone every day to work and 9 times out of 10 at least one person completely ignores the 20mph limit imposed when the street light is flashing. It's damn near every morning when at least one car, usually more, completely blows through the short block at 40mph instead of 20. If a driver can't even be trusted to see a flashing street sign what good is their attention when there is suddenly a kid crossing the street?

It's a sad world we live in that drivers feel so enabled to act like assholes and then feel like they are wronged when called out on it.

The issue has nothing to do with better signs or anything else. Drivers just don't pay attention. We need to come up with ways to fix them not the roads or signs.

Put 4 inch diameter solid hardened steel posts in the center of the lanes that are pneumatically actuated and if any vehicle approaches going above the speed limit, the post shoots up directly in front of them stopping them immediately. If the driver doesn't learn to follow the speed limit the first time, and their vehicle ends up slammed against the post a second time, life in prison.

Hey, some people just won't get the message until you pound it into them so pound it in hard.

They should make any speed violation over 5mph over a $10,000 fine, then people would be paying more attention to the limits, and if the state wants cars running 80mph then set the limit to 80, not 70 and hope people will only go 10 over.

 

[Exavior]

Put 4 inch diameter solid hardened steel posts in the center of the lanes that are pneumatically actuated and if any vehicle approaches going above the speed limit, the post shoots up directly in front of them stopping them immediately. If the driver doesn't learn to follow the speed limit the first time, and their vehicle ends up slammed against the post a second time, life in prison.

Hey, some people just won't get the message until you pound it into them so pound it in hard.

They should make any speed violation over 5mph over a $10,000 fine, then people would be paying more attention to the limits, and if the state wants cars running 80mph then set the limit to 80, not 70 and hope people will only go 10 over.

Sounds like a plan to me. Too many people, including most people here, want to remove 100% responsibility from the driver. It isn't the drivers fault that they drive 40-50mph over the speed limit, blow through stop signs and hit people. Somebody should have done something more to prevent them from doing that. They should have had massive horns and flashing lights to make them look up from their phones for a second to stop at the stop light. You can't expect people to actually pay attention while driving, that is too much to ask.

By me there is a city where previously a state road split into 4 lane road. Speed limit is still 55 but people do about 75 - 80 as soon as they get to the 4 lanes. There was two spots where there were stop lights at one intersection and the at the next a mile up. The road is straight, you can see the lights clearly from a mile away. Yet there are always vehicles, normally semis, they say fuck it and just keep going full speed through them. People kept bitching about how the city needed to so something to the intersection safer. What the hell can you do when people just refuse to obey traffic signs? After the fire chief's wife died after a semi blew through a red light they turned one of them into an overpass with round-a-bouts at top of the ramps for one of the intersections. But that shouldn't have been needed though as people could have just learned to stop at red lights. Same for anything else, like you said sometimes you just need to pound it into their heads that while driving you need to follow posted signs and lights.

 

[nightfly]

Pansies. Even in kindergarten, mom started teaching me how to cross a street. People just assuming that they're safe because they have the light or legal right of way and get hit because they're stupid? We can't fix stupid. What next, stop planes from flying because they go to fast and when they crash people die? Going back to hot air balloons wasn't a solution for that anymore than making roadways slower is for this. Next, some moron will suggest we limit all highway traffic to 55 mph to save lives....oh, wait.....

Besides, we'll soon enough have speed limiting by remote which will be programmed into you car's computer. then of course, the driverless cars.

 

[sfsuphysics]

The problem with these elaborate traffic signals is if you're not from the area they freak you out. Been a few times I've seen some weird flashing lights and my thought is "WTF is that?!" before I realize that someone was crossing the street.

 

[tetris42]

I like how this discussion seems to have split between "kids that are distracted by something or time their crossing incorrectly deserve to die" v. "no, they don't" camps.

 

[Zedicus]

yuck, i am STILL in the 'remove all warning labels and traffic signs and let natural selection have at it' group.

and yes, i have kids.

 

[Lenard]

What about intersections and other traffic? They are trying to solve the issue that all roads are dangerous and designed to allow you to go over 20mph. We need to fix that so that no road allows you to go over 10 - 20 mph so that there will never again be a person killed by being hit by a car nor will any car take that much damage during an accident. Since people won't drive the speed limit we need to design roads that make it impossible to move period...

We should start paving roads with flounder. Flounder is very slippery and resilient.

 

[jedijeb13]

Pansies. Even in kindergarten, mom started teaching me how to cross a street. People just assuming that they're safe because they have the light or legal right of way and get hit because they're stupid? We can't fix stupid. What next, stop planes from flying because they go to fast and when they crash people die? Going back to hot air balloons wasn't a solution for that anymore than making roadways slower is for this. Next, some moron will suggest we limit all highway traffic to 55 mph to save lives....oh, wait.....

Besides, we'll soon enough have speed limiting by remote which will be programmed into you car's computer. then of course, the driverless cars.

Exactly!! We can't fix stupid drivers so we need to shoot them all!!

Honestly though, the fault lies on many peoples heads for things like this. Yes, kids need to learn to pay attention to traffic and not look at their phones while crossing the street, but drivers also need to obey set traffic rules because they are there for a reason. No better example than the train crash in Washington State, train running 80mph through a curve where it should have been going 30mph. Pay attention to your surrounding and follow warning signs and far less problems will occur.

 

[thesmokingman]

boo hoo. Natural selection proves itself to be true?

School zones should NOT have lower speed limits. It's amazing that in every country but ours kids have no fucking problem taking a mass-transit that everyone else does (subway, train, rail, etc...) and can make their entire trip to school ON FOOT - but yet we can't even have kids walk 2 blocks to school without safety guidance the whole fucking way. Get bent.

We are the only country where our pedestrians are such pompous assholes - that they deliberately start moving in front of vehicles (and with no right-of-way) with the incredible assumption that they will be seen and driver will know (or care) to stop. Way to turn do a complete 180 on survival of the fittest.

WTF is up with the extreme display of douchebagerry?

 

[Liver]

The [H] linked webpage has comic / troll gold comments.

 

[mlcarson]

The best solution is the overhead walkway but the kids won't like it because it'll take longer and it means walking up steps. In addition to the walkway, you also need some fencing to prevent kids from crossing the street in other areas. Any place that needs the extra lanes doesn't need traffic backing up and slowing down due to a very slow school zone and a crosswalk that forces traffic to a stop. A traffic engineer should know better -- their job is to maximize traffic flow.

You just know the real problem is that these kids are watching their stupid cell phones rather than watching for traffic. It really seems like kids are suffering from problems that defy common sense of just a generation ago.

 

[sfsuphysics]

i lost count of how many kids I see everyday crossing the street with their eyes buried in their phone.

And I've lost count to how many people driving cars I see everyday looking down at a cell phone. Seems that the retard gene is very common in the United States, only difference is one group will kill themselves and another group will kill others.