Toshiba Faces $1B Loss On HD DVD

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Reuters says that although Toshiba will take a $986 million loss on its HD DVD business, the company will still post an overall profit of $2.44 billion.

Toshiba's decision to pull the plug on HD DVDs will entail production line changes and other charges that would double the 50 billion yen loss the electronics group had previously expected this business year on next-generation DVDs, the Nikkei said. "We did not announce this, and therefore we cannot comment," a Toshiba spokeswoman said.
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All they need to do is change their name to Bebo and AOL will bail them out!
 
I have a feeling that is peanuts compared to the loss Sony would have been facing had Bluray not emerged. Sony had to win the format war with the PS3. There really was no other option. I would love to see the numbers after the dust settles, just how much Sony actually pumped into the format war, and what exactly their expectations are for long term profits.
 
pigpen said:
I have a feeling that is peanuts compared to the loss Sony would have been facing had Bluray not emerged. Sony had to win the format war with the PS3. There really was no other option. I would love to see the numbers after the dust settles, just how much Sony actually pumped into the format war, and what exactly their expectations are for long term profits.
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They both pumped a lot into their products... however, sony integrated bluray into a lot of their products, making the potential of a loss monumental.
 
Has Sony posted their official numbers on losses? With blu players supposedly costing more, I would imagine they lost even more. With the increase in player prices and no more sales on movie discs, I can imagine they will lose more. With the repeated blunders on formats (and batteries, and ...), it's nice to see they finally "won" one. I stopped buying movies since the "physical format war" ended, I just can't afford what they are asking on prices. :( I haven't bought a dvd in 2+ years. I suppose Sony will blame piracy if their blu-ray movie sales go down after the spike in prices... ;)
 
Well, I guess it could have been much worse for them.. Imagine if they had tried to drag it out another year!
 
Toshiba is a smart company, they have plenty of other revenue streams to where they can take risks like they did with HD DVD. Good for them for not actually losing money.
 
w1retap said:
Interesting read here too..

http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/03/12/blu_ray_player_prices_hit_2008_highs_as_competition_dwindles/
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Yeah perhaps if they actually used real data. They base this mainly on the Sharp player skewing the average. Toms claimed price for this player $440, or strangely $40 over list price. If you actually look around most retailers have it well under $400 (Amazon $350, Dell $330) So where are all the stores selling it way over list price for Toms to come up $440? With it widely available for about $350, what idiots are paying $40 over list (or more if this is supposed to be an average)?

More like a bug in Toms search engine or cooking the numbers to drag some more hits from the good old anti BD crowd. And look it worked Wiretap is all over it. :D

The easiest Con in the world is getting someone to believe what they want to believe. They never check the facts then.
 
Hey, I own a BR player too. I'm just stating the obvious. There's no doubt they raised prices. Both on the web and in retail.
 
Snowdog said:
Yeah perhaps if they actually used real data. They base this mainly on the Sharp player skewing the average. Toms claimed price for this player $440, or strangely $40 over list price. If you actually look around most retailers have it well under $400 (Amazon $350, Dell $330) So where are all the stores selling it way over list price for Toms to come up $440? With it widely available for about $350, what idiots are paying $40 over list (or more if this is supposed to be an average)?

More like a bug in Toms search engine or cooking the numbers to drag some more hits from the good old anti BD crowd. And look it worked Wiretap is all over it. :D

The easiest Con in the world is getting someone to believe what they want to believe. They never check the facts then.
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It's not just Toms - http://www.electronichouse.com/article/blu_ray_prices_staying_high/

I think all the blu-ray fanboys are getting mad because they wrongly assumed prices will fall if there was a single victor... hehe :rolleyes: :)

As an owner of a dual format player (LG drive), I am steamed that once the cheap hd-dud discs are gone we will only be left with $30+ blow-ray movies. :eek: I won't afford that. And I'm the only one I know of that even has the equipment to play hi-def movies in 1080p. :( My interest may perk up if descent ones can be found <$15, like when there was still a "war"
 
w1retap said:
Hey, I own a BR player too. I'm just stating the obvious. There's no doubt they raised prices. Both on the web and in retail.
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I think thats BS, I've seen nothing but price droppings.
 
The day after Warner announced they were supporting BR, the prices of the low/mid-range players manufactured by Sony increased $100. I believe it was mentioned on here, along with pictures of the retail store shelf price tags. I'm not going to argue it because I saw it happen with my own eyes. I really don't care, I already purchased my HDDVD/BR combo unit, so I'm all set.
 
Ockie said:
I think thats BS, I've seen nothing but price droppings.
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price droppings is exactly what I was thinking. ;)

I haven't been shopping online, but I did go into my local BB store last night - all the prices have gone up on blu-ray drives since a few weeks ago, and now not even a single blu-ray movie on sale! grr!! All the hd-dvd movies were 30% off sticker price, which isn't that great a deal - same price or higher than before (wtf BB?).

Thanks to Toshiba for making hi-def movies (both formats) more reasonably priced for the short time... even though it cost them. I wouldn't be watching hi-def movies right now if it weren't for them. Their marketing was horrible though, and they paid for it dearly. :(
 
PRIME1 said:
I wonder how much money the suckers who bought HDDVD lost? :p
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not nearly as much as the "winners" lose every time they buy a movie

if the movies costs me over 10 bucks + shipping...I don't need it in HD

the only exception to that rule is box sets.

30 dollar movies is why i'd rather play the bittorrent lottery with some ip blockers up than shell out for an obviously price gouged movie.

for the price of what 4 movies i can have a hard drive big enough for 30 movies? another movie is a 15 meg down fios connection.

I know there are bargain movies to be had, but without competing technologies those will dry up slowly, or become "on sale 24.99" bargains...

for now i'll clean up the lower price hddvd movies and then turn to alternatives to getting my hd content <_<

so avast me harties and raise the jolly roger!
 
ShagnWagn said:
price droppings is exactly what I was thinking. ;)

I haven't been shopping online, but I did go into my local BB store last night - all the prices have gone up on blu-ray drives since a few weeks ago, and now not even a single blu-ray movie on sale! grr!! All the hd-dvd movies were 30% off sticker price, which isn't that great a deal - same price or higher than before (wtf BB?).

Thanks to Toshiba for making hi-def movies (both formats) more reasonably priced for the short time... even though it cost them. I wouldn't be watching hi-def movies right now if it weren't for them. Their marketing was horrible though, and they paid for it dearly. :(
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You shouldn't be shopping at best buy, that was your first mistake. My local one tried to spike on the prices of HD-DVD when all the retailers were clearing out and refused to honor advertised prices on their site.
 
Frankly neither side could continue to blow billions of dollars subsidizing player costs. Now that Sony doesn't need to pump up their format in competition with HD-DVD, they are probably not going to sell at a loss. I don't blame them, I see no need for Sony to subsidize anyones purchase of a Blu-ray player. The same thing would have happened with HD-DVD if it had won out. As we can see by Toshiba's losses, they were heavily subsidizing the player which is partly why their players were so cheap.
 
Ockie said:
You shouldn't be shopping at best buy, that was your first mistake. My local one tried to spike on the prices of HD-DVD when all the retailers were clearing out and refused to honor advertised prices on their site.
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I never said I was shopping there, I know better than that. How dare you call me a BB shopper! :( Where did that come from? I simply went in to play around in the Magnolia section and decided to check out the movie prices. :p
 
trick_m0nkey said:
Toshiba is a smart company, they have plenty of other revenue streams to where they can take risks like they did with HD DVD. Good for them for not actually losing money.
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They lost money. They lost $1B. Nonbusiness minded people see it as, "oh well they still made money." Business people and investors see it as, they dropped their overall profit from $3.5B to $2.5B.

That's a huge chunk of change, and a 28.5% hit to their bottom line. I'm not sure how their other streams will allow them to take such risks. You make another 28.5% mistake and repurcussions will be great.
 
$30 movies??? I guess some people have never heard of a website called "Amazon".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht..._rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=370881401&pf_rd_i=193640011

Seems another hidden website "buy.com" has a bunch $15 and under.
http://www.buy.com/retail/searchres...4=&p01=15&zc01=&dc01=&aw01=&ra01=&st01=&ma01=

I guess it is crazy to be charging for a new format that provides better picture quality and sound. Like those bastards who sell us video cards for $600, when everyone knows you can buy a video card for $30. Plus why would I buy a player for $300, that's outrageous. My 1080p 52" TV came free in a box of cornflakes.

VHS movies are really cheap on eBay! :cool:
 
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and guess what? i buy those vhs movies. do i need love story or roman holiday on blu ray?....shit do i even need them on vhs? i mean come on... '

like i said i used the 30 bucks as an example, there are plenty of people who don't know or dont care how to use amazon.

the bottom line is its still not worth it... it wasn't worth it when hd dvd cost that much either... and it won't be ever. the quality of content just isn't there

also... like it has been mentioned time and time again, this had to happen, blu ray dying means ps3 dying...cause it's not like their game catalog was going to save them....
 
A lot of the quality BR movies I want are still $27+ on Amazon and Buy.com. :(
 
also for the record...the list of cheap blu ray movies you listed....

you couldn't pay me to take 99% of them...that list is like a history of exactly what is wrong with cinema...seriously when you start getting to the good or at least "really popular" movies you break 20 bucks...if I won't pay 10 bucks for a movie i'm sure as hell to pay 20.


also, i have watched a lot of hd and blu ray, and it's really hit or miss as to whether or not hd is all that noticeable.

on something like pirates or last samurai (a br and hd example i can think of) yeah it looks like a pretty good improvement.

kung fu hustle and clerks II (also br and hd respectively) i could easily get by with the sd counterparts being upconverted.
 
PRIME1 said:
Yeah, after how badly the PS1 and PS2 did. Oh wait. :eek:
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the ps1 and ps2 were decent systems, hardware was junk, but the software catalogs were good, but the 40 and 80gb ps3 releases removed hardware support for those formats. also the game sales on ps3 are primarily from the ps2 catalog.

It's precisely because of their track record that the level of suck on ps3 games is so disappointing.
 
Manaknight said:
and guess what? i buy those vhs movies. do i need love story or roman holiday on blu ray?....shit do i even need them on vhs? i mean come on... '

like i said i used the 30 bucks as an example, there are plenty of people who don't know or dont care how to use amazon.

the bottom line is its still not worth it... it wasn't worth it when hd dvd cost that much either... and it won't be ever. the quality of content just isn't there

also... like it has been mentioned time and time again, this had to happen, blu ray dying means ps3 dying...cause it's not like their game catalog was going to save them....
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*shit do i need them on dvd*

corrected for being a dumbass
 
Manaknight said:
also for the record...the list of cheap blu ray movies you listed....

you couldn't pay me to take 99% of them...
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Ah so your complaint is they don't have your favorite movie (Police Academy 7?) on Blu-ray for $2.

I agree I'm pissed I can't get a corvette for $24.

I'm guessing the TV you watch HD cost what, $5? The stereo system you have hooked up to it was less. If you have a new console I'm sure the games are cheap, right?

My DVD player was $300 back in the 90s and the movies were upwards of $30 back then with much less of a selection.
 
got a panasonic 50 inch plasma actually, the 75u, though it cost me under a grand all things included.

if I couldn't have weaseled my way into spending less than a grand i would not have bought it.

the receiver i have is a high end denon, the model number escapes me. it cost me 20 bucks because it was supposedly dead, 10 minutes of fussing i just needed to change a few internal componects, ( i think like one blown cap and a fuse). before that i had the sony that was 99 bucks on black friday.


my favorite movie is actually the original count of monte cristo...the old old release
other favorites include the piano, the crow, and the princess bride (which yes i know is on blu ray, but does this movie really need high def?)

i'm sorry dude, i'm glad you think blu ray is awesome, and from a technological standpoint it is pretty cool so i agree with you.

however when it comes to media content and entertainment i refuse to pay a premium for any of it. the stuff i watch does not take high def to make it good, not saying you don't enjoy that stuff as well, but really, i do still watch vhs right along side my other players, my game consoles as well, i actually play my ps1 and snes more than the newer systems i have, i actually have to use epsxe to emulate scanlines on my plasma to make 2d games display right...

seriously man, i'm glad you like blu ray, but attacks on me don't change my belief that the cost just isn't worth what i would get as a benefit.
 
PRIME1 said:
Yeah, after how badly the PS1 and PS2 did. Oh wait. :eek:
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So just because a previous line did well, that guarantees automatic success for its future counterpart? I actually interviewed one of the Sony managers during a tour of a factory for a research project of mine...they all admitted that the PS3 was failing, and badly. They entered the console war too late, with not enough to offer. It was too expensive to appeal to the casual gamers (that the Wii attracted) and didn't have enough of a game base to attract the hardcore gamers (that the 360 snatched up).

Everyone I knew that bought a PS3 has told me that it eventually just became the household Blu-ray player that could play a couple games now and then. If HD-DVD won the format war, that would have been the nail in the coffin for the PS3, especially after they took out the hardware backwards compatibility, which had at least had the appeal of upscaling PS1/PS2 games.

So what do you do when your flagship system is riding on the outcome of a format war? You pump money into it until you kill the other one off.
 
evenfall928 said:
So what do you do when your flagship system is riding on the outcome of a format war?
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Really? The PS3 has been outselling the 360 in the US this year and has been outselling it in Europe/Japan for much longer. In fact when taking into account it launched a year after the 360, its sales are better overall. Hell even the PS2 is outselling the 360.

So where does that leave Microsoft? Maybe looking down the same well that Toshiba fell into.
 
PRIME1 said:
Really? The PS3 has been outselling the 360 in the US this year and has been outselling it in Europe/Japan for much longer. In fact when taking into account it launched a year after the 360, its sales are better overall. Hell even the PS2 is outselling the 360.

So where does that leave Microsoft? Maybe looking down the same well that Toshiba fell into.
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The 360 has sold about 17 million, the PS3 has sold 10 million. Yes, the PS3 has been outselling the 360 in Japan, but you also have to take into account the fact that 360 sales in Japan are only now starting (due to a preconception of Microsoft being "American" until games like Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata showed up).

But that's beside the point, sales aside, the fact is is that the PS3 game release list has been pitiful, simply even in quantity if you don't want to get into debates about quality (different strokes for different folks after all). The thing about it is everyone I know who has bought a PS3 uses it almost solely for its Blu-ray capability and ends up gaming more on another system (be it the Wii, 360, or even the PS2).

My point was that the biggest thing the PS3 has going for it is the "hey look, it's a firmware-upgradeable Blu-ray player! ...oh, and yeah, it can play games too." Had Blu-ray lost the war, it would've turned into a "oh, it plays a dead format and only has a couple games I want"

Hell, I wasn't even thinking about buying a PS3 a few months ago. But now I'm probably going to pick one up just for Blu-ray and the upscaling of PS1/PS2. There isn't anything specific to the PS3 that I want, but I'm going to end up buying the system because of the outcome of the format war.
 
ShagnWagn said:
It's not just Toms - http://www.electronichouse.com/article/blu_ray_prices_staying_high/
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Congratulations. I dub thee wiretap wannabe.

That is electronichouse, quoting gizmodo, quoting toms. AKA blog circle jerk.

So yes it is just Toms. No one does any fact checking, because hey lame controversy = page hits.

Go check yourself. Even use pricegrabber. The player pulling up Toms average (the sharp at $440) is $329 at Dell, $350 at Amazon. This is completely bogus data. Heck that is over ESP/MSRP.

I mentioned in another post some time ago that BD is following the price curve of DVD and being around $400 in January, should be $300 by 2008 holiday season(basically what Sony says as well) and should be around $200 by the 2009 holiday season.

If I was buying today I could get that sharp for $330. Not too shabby and ahead of the projected curve. Only thing that has happened in the last while is normal retail fluctuations. The wholesale price of players didn't go up.

But hey it must be all powerfull Sony forcing some retailers somewhere to sell Sharp players over List price and Tom must have a different version of pricegrabber that only saw that price. :rolleyes:
 
They should be sub $300, or more down to reality, sub $200. On 1/5/2008 after the Warner news was confirmed, the prices went UP $100. The Sony BSP300 was running for $299 retail MSRP, and it could be found for $230 on Amazon. Now MSRP shows $399, and Amazon shows new non-refurb units selling in the mid/high $300's.
 
PRIME1 said:
$30 movies??? I guess some people have never heard of a website called "Amazon".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht..._rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=370881401&pf_rd_i=193640011

Seems another hidden website "buy.com" has a bunch $15 and under.
http://www.buy.com/retail/searchres...4=&p01=15&zc01=&dc01=&aw01=&ra01=&st01=&ma01=

I guess it is crazy to be charging for a new format that provides better picture quality and sound. Like those bastards who sell us video cards for $600, when everyone knows you can buy a video card for $30. Plus why would I buy a player for $300, that's outrageous. My 1080p 52" TV came free in a box of cornflakes.

VHS movies are really cheap on eBay! :cool:
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Well said, before the end of the format war Blu-ray and HD-DVD players were likely below market price. Perhaps they weren't losing money on them when one accounts for only the raw materials and manufacturing costs, but they were certainlly less profitable then other electronics in their lineup. Sony does not have a monopoly on blue-ray player production. Now the prices will hit an area where they would be naturally. Previously they were distorted as both camps were trying to push the other out of the marketplace, not only so they could raise prices, but more importantly so they could increase sales since most consumers weren't willing to invest in a player until the format war was decided.

Sure, you guys here don't have a lot of interest in Blu-ray discs perhaps, since you can download stuff or what have you. But people like my parents are already getting them because it's not worth their time downloading HD content or setting up a HTPC. For people who don't enjoy doing technical stuff like that the whole thing just costs them time, and time is money, so just getting the discs is actually cheaper. Downloadable content is a long way from being conistent or as available (in HD) as Blu-ray discs are.

That said, the market is getting smaller as online delivery takes over more of the market. Solid state formats are still a long way from being irrelevant.
 
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evenfall928 said:
But that's beside the point, sales aside, the fact is is that the PS3 game release list has been pitiful, simply even in quantity if you don't want to get into debates about quality (different strokes for different folks after all). The thing about it is everyone I know who has bought a PS3 uses it almost solely for its Blu-ray capability and ends up gaming more on another system (be it the Wii, 360, or even the PS2).
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The game release list I'm looking at must be totally different than yours then:

MSG4, GTA IV, Final Fantasy VII remake, Final Fantasy XIII, Gran Turismo 5, Resident Evil 5, Resistance 2.

Nah, they aren't out yet...but very soon, 2 of those titles I listed will be out next month..
 
evenfall928 said:
The 360 has sold about 17 million, the PS3 has sold 10 million. Yes, the PS3 has been outselling the 360 in Japan, but you also have to take into account the fact that 360 sales in Japan are only now starting (due to a preconception of Microsoft being "American" until games like Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata showed up).
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That is patently false. Blue dragon has been out for OVER A YEAR (released in Dec 2006) in Japan, Eternal Sonata came out in July 2007. 360 sales are NOT just starting in Japan... overall they're consistently low compared to both the Wii and PS3... they've NEVER gotten out of the starting gate.

It's not that MS didn't try harder this time to enlist ALOT more Japanese Game Studios to make games for the Japanese market before the 360 launch compared to the Xbox 1.

I'm no PS3 fanboi, don't own one, and own an XBOX 360. I just don't like posts distorting the truth no matter which side they favor.
 
mekkanic said:
The game release list I'm looking at must be totally different than yours then:

MSG4, GTA IV, Final Fantasy VII remake, Final Fantasy XIII, Gran Turismo 5, Resident Evil 5, Resistance 2.

Nah, they aren't out yet...but very soon, 2 of those titles I listed will be out next month..
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i can't be excited for that release list... everything is a sequel of an overly mainstream overpushed game.

mgs4, ok it will be decent, Kojima still treats game as art... but it will eventually reach cross platform...

ff7 is milking a franchise to an obscene level. and still its NOT confirmed

the rest are sequels of mainstream and "safe" franchises.

so no...that list still looks pretty sad...

and trust me..i'm not an xbox or wii fanboy either...if anything i'm a pc gamer... and i enjoy original and enjoyable titles...with the exception of mgs...i just don't see that on the list.

and as an aside i almost cried when i saw what they did to final fantasy 13


anyway you can flame away... the reality is yes the ps3 is selling well, but its because they target demographic already has an xbox if they want one. furthermore the ps3 is the best blu ray player out...hence why blu ray was such a critical win for sony. I give it credit for its player capabilities, and i like the fact that it can stream to my psp, but really when it comes to games...it just doesn't have anything i want... now or in the forseeable future, and as for mgs4... i i can hold my breath because i'm willing to bet it will go to other systems.
 
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