Toshiba Ends Format War

BillR said:
Actually you pinpointed the real reason HD DVD failed. Nobody except Toshiba wanted to manufacture the units with the possible exception of Onkyo, but those were rebranded Toshiba units from what I saw of them.
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That has nothing to do with why HD-DVD failed.

BR on the other hand has tons of manufacture’s support. That alone translates into more unit sales
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Uh, except for one little thing, it DIDN'T translate into more unit sales. HD-DVD won the standalone war, it just couldn't compete with the PS3.

Just because there are 4 different companies making BD players and 1 making HD players that doesn't automatically translate to more BD player sales. Where's the logic in that? It doesn't even make any sense.
 
BillR said:
First, picture wise the PS-3 doesn’t hold a candle to one of the stand alone players, I’ve had them side by side, and it’s really a big difference.

Second, apparently you have never taken the time to go to Sony’s firmware site. If you are not competent enough do download the file and burn your own upgrade CD Sony will send you one for free. Since the entire software system lives on DSP chips the PS-3 and all the stand alone players can be upgraded to virtually any level needed up to and including replacing the entire OS.

Try facts in your next post, please.:)
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So you're saying ANY BD player can be updated to 2.0 profile? That is definitely not what I have read.
 
BillR said:
First, picture wise the PS-3 doesn’t hold a candle to one of the stand alone players, I’ve had them side by side, and it’s really a big difference.

Second, apparently you have never taken the time to go to Sony’s firmware site. If you are not competent enough do download the file and burn your own upgrade CD Sony will send you one for free. Since the entire software system lives on DSP chips the PS-3 and all the stand alone players can be upgraded to virtually any level needed up to and including replacing the entire OS.

Try facts in your next post, please.:)
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It seems like that's what you're saying, that any BD player can be upgraded to 2.0, but that's completely false, so what ARE you saying? He's bitching about the profile evolving, you're telling him that all standalone players can be upgraded to any level needed, and then you tell him he needs to get his facts straight. So it seems like you MUST be saying that any player can be updated to 2.0 spec (that's what he's talking about Bill, 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0), but that's completely false so it would be you that would need to try facts in your post.

I must be missing something Bill, please explain.
 
Sprkslfly said:
Not only that...but the simple FACT that Sony *completely* sets the pricing/profit ratio for the seller(s).

EG: When I was in the music industry...*most* items that were sold (retail) were an A or B "mark." Translated: typically 40% to 50% profit rate for the business selling the manufacter's 'name brand' goods. Very few (less than 4-5 brands) that our million-dollar a year (not some 'mom-n-pop' store) were in the C or D range (25% to 40% profit).

Now ANY Sony items that we sold, had *required* pricing schemes, that were *by standard contract* to be followed, else you risk losing your "dealer" status. What was the mark on those you might ask? **15%** profit for the "dealer." EIGHTY-FIVE percent (85%) profit straight to Sony.

My point being (to those arguing the against the "essence" in the logic of some of the people's stances here) is that, if you think for a second, that Sony would not attempt the same manner of price fixing/'strategic coersion' upon their retail channel partners, you are *seriously* mistaken!

Now, when you apply *Sony's* corporate mentality to the equation...how could anyone think that prices will be comparable, in the BR disc arena, without competition, when we have a measurable track record to see and compare to when they DO have competition. Yet, Sony still manages to uphold their 85% command of profits in those arena's.

At those profit margins, DAMN SKIPPY they have the 'wieght' to throw around, and effect the marketplace. Whether some people are aware OR choose to see it or not. You better believe it exists.
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Ah yes, it sounds to me like you worked in a get paid on margin store. That’s how I used to pay my employees as well and they all made good money, even on Sony.

Neither Sony nor any other company can tell a store what the product must be priced to sell. Sony and everyone else lost that right long before you were born with the “Fair Trade” laws.

Sony and everyone else does have a MAP policy, minimum advertised price and a MSRP policy, minimum suggested retail price.

A million dollar a year store is a Mom and Pop business sorry to tell you. If I couldn’t do 6 to 10 million a year in a 5000 square foot store I would have closed it in a heartbeat.

As for Sony making 85% profit when selling to the dealers, puleeeeze………..

The people actually screwing you were the people you worked for. A typical employee gets to see 2 price sheets as a rule. Believe it or not the second more honest sheet is determined by dealer volume so those vary from company to company. The real cost sheet is the dealer principals property and I never left those in the store. You also forgot to mention the back money. That’s the dollars allocated back to the dealer for advertising, again, based on volume. Back money also includes nice discounts for prompt pay and better discounts for paid in full deliveries. Then there is the end of year volume money that comes back to the dealer in the form of a credit or a check, dealer’s choice.

Back in the late 60’s and 70s we typically held back 5% on most products to cover costs of doing business. After the hold back what was left went into the price sheet as cost and the sales force was left to their own means as far as pricing and the size of the overall system they were selling. As margins fell hard on Video and many Audio products the business evolved over the years and not many small stores are left.

You analogy is as foolish as having a car dealer sell you a car for true invoice. They do it all the time. The truth is there are many many factors that control a car’s final cost to the dealer and settle up time comes at the end of the year.:)
 
i'm glad that after being sickened with the reliability of CDs then DVDs I decided not to buy either blueray or hd dvd... i still have no plans or desire to buy blueray.. atm i get my hd content via download, when this is available legally (with bandwidth offset by ISP) I'll definitely opt for that... but discs?? you can jam them up your date...
 
Nicolaskl said:
So you're saying ANY BD player can be updated to 2.0 profile? That is definitely not what I have read.
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Nicolaskl said:
It seems like that's what you're saying, that any BD player can be upgraded to 2.0, but that's completely false, so what ARE you saying? He's bitching about the profile evolving, you're telling him that all standalone players can be upgraded to any level needed, and then you tell him he needs to get his facts straight. So it seems like you MUST be saying that any player can be updated to 2.0 spec (that's what he's talking about Bill, 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0), but that's completely false so it would be you that would need to try facts in your post.

I must be missing something Bill, please explain.
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You guys spend way too much time in the AV Forums and the FUD filled HD DVD sites.

Only 2 months ago you all read that HD DVD was going to be the hands down winner. How do you feel now about what you “read” somewhere?

Whether or not the lower end models will actually get the 2.0 upgrade or even a higher one is going to be based on the manufacture’s decision, not the hardware.

I picked up a model 300 over Christmas and frankly I’m not sure what in the way of features you might want that are of any real importance.

Although now retired I still have access to some good sources of information and beta firmware. As much as I like this player in the end I will purchase the Sony ES machine or the new Denon or Pioneer Elite machine.

Being retired means I won’t be replacing my DVD player with another Lexicon anytime soon.;)
 
BillR said:
Whether or not the lower end models will actually get the 2.0 upgrade or even a higher one is going to be based on the manufacture’s decision, not the hardware.
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Gee, is that more unsupported BS from BillR I see there? Everyone (Including the manufacturers themselves) say they can't do it, but BillR says they can. Hmmm, who should I believe?

Bill, condescending and incorrect is never a good combination.
 
theDreamer said:
What better features did it have that Blu-ray cannot achieve by adding a firmware update, or adding down the line to its production of media?
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Mainly web-enabled content and ease of firmware updates ("Menu">"System Update">"Update" vs. go online, burn disc, put disc in player, press play).

Snowdog said:
Now that HD-DVD lost the war, some former HD-DVD fans have accepted reality with good grace. But a significant number instead have gone the route of sour grapes and trying spread FUD about Bluray. Most of it incorrect. So here is my guide to bitter HD-DVD fan rhetoric vs Reality. Now I can just answer standard FUD with a number.

2: "its not profile whatever compatible and is now a fancy paper weight": The incompatible profile FUD.

Reality: All profiles play all movies. This is pure nonsense FUD. Let's be crystal clear what each profile gives you:

1.0: All Movies and all standard extras similar to DVD.
1.1: (AKA Final standard profile) Adds extras with Picture in Picture. I would probably buy a 1.1 at this point, but I wouldn't upgrade if I had a 1.0.
2.0: (Optional profile BTW) Add internet connectivity for downloading lame crap. How many people want to connect their player to the internet. I know I don't. I really don't want this feature and will never use it.



5: The bluray associationg paid off/bribed Warner (or netflix, walmart etc...) otherwise HD-DVD would have won FUD.

Reality: There is Zero evidence that Warner or other recent movers was paid anything, just one HD-DVD fan blog started this rumor. If you look at the stats Bluray was outselling everywhere and something missed in all the uproar was that in the weeks before CES and Warner announce, HD DVD was losing on sales of standalone players. It's one and only previous bright spot. No the end was near before Warner accellerated the end game and sided with the obvious winner. You don't need to pay someone to side with the winner.
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I'll take the 2 points I have exception to:

#2: Many BD players are having a LOT of trouble handling content on newer BD movies. Some refuse to play at all on some models, and play on others. Maybe player-specific firmware updates will fix this (and some have for the Samsung BD-UP5000 that I have. The fix? Instead of not being able to watch "Sunshine" at all, now I can watch the whole movie, just as long as I don't press "pause", "fast-forward" or "rewind." Some fix:rolleyes: No problems even remotely similar to this with my HD-A30.

And no BD player without an Ethernet port will ever, EVER, be Profile 2.0 compliant. My Duo player has an ethernet port--required by the HD-DVD spec--but only 256 MB of persistent storage. I have 23 more days to decide to either keep the Samsung or just return their player and buy a fucking PS3. Didn't have to make decisions like this with HD-DVD.

And just because you don't want to have internet capability with your player doesn't mean a lot of other people don't, too.

#5: http://gizmodo.com/344680/the-real-reason-warner-went-blu+ray Interesting stuff there.

BillR said:
You guys spend way too much time in the AV Forums and the FUD filled HD DVD sites.

Only 2 months ago you all read that HD DVD was going to be the hands down winner. How do you feel now about what you “read” somewhere?

Whether or not the lower end models will actually get the 2.0 upgrade or even a higher one is going to be based on the manufacture’s decision, not the hardware.

I picked up a model 300 over Christmas and frankly I’m not sure what in the way of features you might want that are of any real importance.

Although now retired I still have access to some good sources of information and beta firmware. As much as I like this player in the end I will purchase the Sony ES machine or the new Denon or Pioneer Elite machine.

Being retired means I won’t be replacing my DVD player with another Lexicon anytime soon.;)
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The different profiles are ALL dependent on the hardware. Secondary audio/video decoders for PiP--required for Profile 1.1. Ethernet port and 1 GB of persistent storage required for Profile 2.0. It's entirely about the hardware. Anyone with a profile 1.0 player has a paperweight when it comes to extra features. Bottom line.
 
gaspah said:
i'm glad that after being sickened with the reliability of CDs then DVDs I decided not to buy either blueray or hd dvd... i still have no plans or desire to buy blueray.. atm i get my hd content via download, when this is available legally (with bandwidth offset by ISP) I'll definitely opt for that... but discs?? you can jam them up your date...
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My freakin' ISP limits downloads to 1.4GB per day, and like 256MB of uploads, then they throttle the crap out of it. (CableOne = crap) They have bad customer service, and poor prices, too, for the higher speeds. Makes it impractical to rent/dl a lot of HD stuff. Even standard def movies ranging from 800MB to 1.5GB are a chore. Download one of them and your internet is crippled for the rest of the day. It sucks. The quality of Blu ray (and HD DVD) on a nice TV is astounding. Those who desire blu-ray rightfully desire it for the quality. I desire it and hopefully anticipate a day when my HTPC will have a blu-ray reader/writer inside. I hate contributing to Sony's new monopoly as much or even more than the next man, but you can't deny how good the picture and audio quality are. At my local best buy they have some demonstrations using blu ray players on hd tv's with klipsch surround sounds that just knock my socks off. You BET YOUR BUTTOOTIE I want that kind of quality in my house. Right now the cost is prohibitive - I was hoping the war would last a tad longer to drive prices down even more. Alas, I feel like Toshiba let us down. They didn't do what was necessary to garner enough manufacturer and movie producer support to keep their format competetive, and I feel like they have let down every single early investor in their technology, and themselves as well. They're losing millions in this, and it's sad.

At least it will be an easier choice now for those who haven't invested in it. It seems like an easier sale now at my store.

I don't know if this has been visited on this thread yet, but I saw another post on another thread where someone said that Best Buy was biased to Blu-Ray because most of their end-caps had blu ray players, not HD-DVD's and that blu ray movies and PS3's were promoted more in the store displays than xbox hd dvd players and HD movies. They implied that best buy had some kind of prejudice.

I agree that blu-ray got more endcaps and fancy displays, but not because of some prejudice - because of money. Manufacturers pay stores for end-caps. If sony and samsung paid for more endcaps, then more blu-ray devices/movies will be displayed. It will be more publicized, and more recognizable. Customers will see it more, too. When they walk in the door and see that fantastic picture and hear that crystal clear sound they will wonder, "what the heck is producing such great quality video?" When they look down to the player what do they see? Blu-ray players. But again, this is not because best buy "liked" blu-ray better. Both formats had excellent 1080p video. Simply, sony and samsung just paid for way more endcaps and fancy shelf displays - another reason I fault toshiba. Toshiba just didn't do what was necessary to publicize their product enough. They didn't acquire enough studio support. And all those issues could probably somehow relate to money, too. Sometimes I wonder if it just depended on who was willing to pay more to buy what movie studio off. Who knows... I just wish toshiba would've held on longer. Blu ray's not bad, but $500 for a player is - compared to $200 for the same thing in HD-DVD format...
 
gaspah said:
i'm glad that after being sickened with the reliability of CDs then DVDs I decided not to buy either blueray or hd dvd... i still have no plans or desire to buy blueray.. atm i get my hd content via download, when this is available legally (with bandwidth offset by ISP) I'll definitely opt for that... but discs?? you can jam them up your date...
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Discs will not be an option for me until they can get the quality of HD downloads up to snuff. Right now there is absolutely no comparison. Downloads have the advantage of convenience, but as of now that is it.
 
PNut12345 said:
#2: Many BD players are having a LOT of trouble handling content on newer BD movies. Some refuse to play at all on some models, and play on others. Maybe player-specific firmware updates will fix this (and some have for the Samsung BD-UP5000 that I have. The fix? Instead of not being able to watch "Sunshine" at all, now I can watch the whole movie, just as long as I don't press "pause", "fast-forward" or "rewind." Some fix:rolleyes: No problems even remotely similar to this with my HD-A30.

And no BD player without an Ethernet port will ever, EVER, be Profile 2.0 compliant. My Duo player has an ethernet port--required by the HD-DVD spec--but only 256 MB of persistent storage. I have 23 more days to decide to either keep the Samsung or just return their player and buy a fucking PS3. Didn't have to make decisions like this with HD-DVD.

And just because you don't want to have internet capability with your player doesn't mean a lot of other people don't, too.

#5: http://gizmodo.com/344680/the-real-reason-warner-went-blu+ray Interesting stuff there.
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Well I could have wrote the complete book along with standard responses to responses...

Since you don't seem like a raving zealot I will answer your question assuming you are genuinely mistaken and not just spewing FUD.

First up profiles. What I said is true. All profiles play all movies, and no your are not forced to watch the movie never using the fast forward key. You just don't see the PIP feature, you would never even know it was there. Problems you refer to are Samsung player problem not profile player problems. It happens when you have a new standard and you have multiple manufacturers making players some of them don't get all the bugs out. Toshiba had the luxury of being the only player manufacturer so it is a lot easier to stick to the standard when you are the standard. Return the Samsung, get the PS3, A Sony or a Pioneer. You picked a bad player, it doesn't have anything at all to do with profiles.

Also just because you want internet connectivity doesn't mean more than a tiny minority does. What do you think it will give besides very lame webvertising. If you want the internet, use a PC where you have some control and you are not force fed some lame studio garbage. Please tell me what you think these must have internet features will be?

On the payout theory, congratulations on finding the original source of the rumor. Don is a diehard HD-DVD fan, who let his preferences get the better of his judgment, when he posted that. He has since removed it from his blog of the same story here: http://www.soundadviceblog.com/?p=758

There has been no more follow-up on what should be his exclusive blowing this story wide open. He is the only one who ever "found" anything on this. It seems more like someone knew Dons nature and took advantage of it, but feeding him a rumor he was sure to pounce on without any fact checking or indeed Sanity checking. But please pursue Don and ask him to show you the money.

Warner did the perfectly reasonable thing here and they explained it perfectly well. They also issued a complete unequivocal rejection of the rumor(no typical corpspeak wiggle room either). Warner wanted to end the war quickly and there was only one choice to do that. Before Warner moved it was already tilting heavily in Blurays favor, Warner would have stalemated things long term if they went HD-DVD. Sony is completely committed to Bluray, the PS3 has 10 million+ units and the future ones would have to remain Bluray, they can't change the spec, so no matter what Warner did Bluray units would continue to flood the market. So this would probably take another 5 years to decide, effectively destroying the HD disk market.Even with a unified standard there may be challenges.

Almost universal agreement that the format war was hurting everyone, Warner had the stones to end it. Kudos to them.
 
Blu Ray won the battle but not the war. Now it has to compete with digital distribution. A Battle they will lose & lose badly. What they can hope for is that Studios continue to release there movies well before it is available to stream on the net, on a list for HD On Demand, placed on I Tunes or an IPTV related service & so fourth. I also wouldn't be surprised If I see prices increase since there the only HD media solution now. I could care less about Blu Ray, The upscaling ability of both my Xbox 360 & PS3 makes me perfectly happy with sticking to DVD's. I do have a Blu Ray Player with the PS3 but I could care less about that.

-DarkLegacy
 
DarkLegacy said:
Blu Ray won the battle but not the war. Now it has to compete with digital distribution. A Battle they will lose & lose badly. What they can hope for is that Studios continue to release there movies well before it is available to stream on the net, on a list for HD On Demand, placed on I Tunes or an IPTV related service & so fourth. I also wouldn't be surprised If I see prices increase since there the only HD media solution now. I could care less about Blu Ray, The upscaling ability of both my Xbox 360 & PS3 makes me perfectly happy with sticking to DVD's. I do have a Blu Ray Player with the PS3 but I could care less about that.

-DarkLegacy
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In ten years maybe. As for now though, the vast majority of this country has limited access to anything more than dial-up, much less the speeds needed for a streaming HD movie that's not horridly compressed.

As has been pointed out several times, DVD was expensive when it came out. It didn't have competition and look at it now, $30 players, $10-15 releases. Bluray isn't going to be any different.
 
DVD players and films have been mainstream for about 11 years and took the 3rd year to finally take off. After 2 years there were 100 million households who are "ready" for DVD players compared to 26.5 million who were "ready" (i.e. have an HDTV or HD monitor).

Here's the avg. price of DVD players to show that it wasn't "cheap" back then and how year 3 helped with the significant price drop.
1998 (year 2): $428
1999 (year 3): $298



Sources:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3092/is_3_39/ai_59426634

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpidvd.htm

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6532685.html
 
You guys need to look at one more angle;

It is more profitable to sell Stand Alone BD Players at $500 right now so that more PS3's go out the door. The people "BD Movie Player bargain shopping" will most likley use the PS3 for the gaming side as much as the movie side. This sets up sales of not only BD Movies, but the highly profitable Games, while increasing both PS3 and BD Player market penetration enough to get the format out of the "1%" club for total Movie Sales.
 
TheBluePill said:
You guys need to look at one more angle;

It is more profitable to sell Stand Alone BD Players at $500 right now so that more PS3's go out the door. The people "BD Movie Player bargain shopping" will most likley use the PS3 for the gaming side as much as the movie side. This sets up sales of not only BD Movies, but the highly profitable Games, while increasing both PS3 and BD Player market penetration enough to get the format out of the "1%" club for total Movie Sales.
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You got a good point there. If I bought a PS3 for blu-ray player use, and they released this game I just had to have, nothing would stop me from buying it, thus profiting sony in yet another aspect. At least I know they didn't make much, if anything, on the console. Stand alone players are still on the expensive side right now. Manufacturers make lots of money on them. Working in retail I know exactly what they charge retailers for them, per unit. When the war heated up, they dropped the price in half like it was nothing. They could do it again and still not cut into their profits, as the players are now being produced quite cheaply, and by several manufacturers - Pioneer, Sony, Samsung, Philips, plus others. A common manufacturing for many shared parts is now firmly in place and I guarantee they are producing those as cheaply as they can. The PS3 has a hard drive and lots of multimedia functions that make it a much more sensible purchase, not to mention $100 cheaper than a standalone. I congratulate those that hopped on while they were doing the 5 free movie thing. If you bought a standalone and got the 5 free movies then that made up for some of the extra price on the player.
 
w1retap said:
Interesting read here.

Looks like they've already formulated a way to pay off all those differed payments to the studios. :p

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9874317-7.html

Sadly, this means prices will be high for quite some time due to sky high royalty fees. =/
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What I found the most interesting in that article was that China feels it should develop its own standard. More power to them.
 
w1retap said:
Interesting read here.

Looks like they've already formulated a way to pay off all those differed payments to the studios. :p

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9874317-7.html

Sadly, this means prices will be high for quite some time due to sky high royalty fees. =/
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I think you a reading it wrong.

Article states that Bluray is going to be lucrative just as CD's and DVD's were in terms of royalties. It would be the same with HD-DVD if they had won. All these media formats carries royalties.

Gartner analyst Van Baker, however, said he doesn't believe that Blu-ray will be as lucrative as DVD. For one thing, Blu-ray will have to compete against digital download services, which could prove popular with consumers. Second, the studios have been knocking down the royalty rates.
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DarkLegacy said:
Blu Ray won the battle but not the war. Now it has to compete with digital distribution. A Battle they will lose & lose badly. What they can hope for is that Studios continue to release there movies well before it is available to stream on the net, on a list for HD On Demand, placed on I Tunes or an IPTV related service & so fourth. I also wouldn't be surprised If I see prices increase since there the only HD media solution now. I could care less about Blu Ray, The upscaling ability of both my Xbox 360 & PS3 makes me perfectly happy with sticking to DVD's. I do have a Blu Ray Player with the PS3 but I could care less about that.

-DarkLegacy
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HDM is already 4-5x in sales over Digital Distribution, this early on, and distancing itself more and more every week. Digital Dist is the one that has to catch up, and before it can do that the internet infrastructure has to make strides before it has a chance. Then there is the issue of digital distributions HD quality is nowhere near on par with HDM, which is honestly the most important part imo. Its a few years off still before digital dist makes a dent.
 
Looks to me like Toshiba knew exactly what they were doing the entire time then.

What, you mean Toshiba doesn't really care about the end user? What a surprise! :rolleyes:
 
Now what Sony paid off Toshiba? Come on guys. No conspiracies needed. That ( chip manufacturing sale) was a done deal a long time back and well known info. It just happened to clear the books finally.

Also these are all businesses, none of them care. They are corporations that exist to make money. Toshiba gambled on lost, that is all.
 
IMO - And this is a good a conspiracy theory as any:

HD-DVD was all a stall tactic on Toshibas part. A hundred million dollar stall tactic to prevent Bluray from gaining enough acceptance to really bite into DVD sales before the real next gen stuff starts showing up.

The US and Canada cable modem operators are poised to upgrade to Docsis 3.0 this year, which will give an immediate 4x or 8x boost in download and upload speed. Each local loop will now be able to download at 323mbits/sec speed, which outstrips the speed of a lot of singular harddrives, and will actually make you glad you have a gigabit network adaptor and not a 10/100.

This is the first real noticable upgrade since the inception of Docsis - OK I lie, there was a tiny speed boost moving from proprietary Motorola to Docsis 1.0, from 30 to 40mbits download and 1.5 to 10mbits upload, but barely anyone noticed that one as no one really uploaded all that much data way back then.

Flash is also growing at a rate that is just too fast to ignore or even for many to comprehend. I mean really, its almost dropping in price and growing in capacity like DDR2 (which is nearly 1/10th the cost of last year at this time)

The HD-DVD codec will live on, although the spinning disc may be pushed into history.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120342115442976687.html?mod=technology_main_whats_news

Toshiba Regroups After Losing DVD War
CEO Announces Plans
To Invest $15.71 Billion
In Flash-Memory Push
By YUKARI IWATANI KANE
February 20, 2008; Page B3

TOKYO -- Toshiba Corp. pulled out of the high-definition DVD business, blaming the loss of support from a key movie studio and handing victory in a format war to Sony Corp.'s Blu-ray technology.

Toshiba, a Japanese conglomerate that makes products from chips to nuclear reactors, said it would cease production of its HD DVD players and recorders immediately and end the business by the end of March.

"It was a heartbreaking decision," Toshiba Chief Executive Atsutoshi Nishida told a news conference. "But we considered the impact of continuing the business on our operations, the next-generation DVD market and consumers."

Mr. Nishida said it was important to take action quickly. He simultaneously announced plans to strengthen Toshiba's flash-memory business by investing more than 1.7 trillion yen ($15.71 billion) along with its U.S. partner SanDisk Corp. to construct two plants in Japan. Flash memory is a kind of chip typically used in digital cameras and music players because it is light and small.

Computer makers are slowly starting to replace hard-disk drives with flash memory. Use of flash chips slashes boot-up times and makes laptops lighter. The chips are still too expensive to be used widely in computers, but a continuing price decline could increase demand.

The DVD format battle had been fought during the past several years. Sony has led a group backing its Blu-ray technology. Toshiba has promoted its HD DVD format, which it touted as the affordable choice for consumers. Persuading major film studios to issue movies in their formats was crucial.

"Our goal now is to educate the consumer about the advantages of high-definition now that the format war is over," said Howard Stringer, Sony chief executive, in a telephone interview. "A lot of people have obviously been sitting on the fence."

Mr. Nishida said he realized there was no chance of winning the battle after Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Bros. decided last month to side with Blu-ray. Time Warner is a longtime Toshiba partner but saw that Blu-ray software sales were significantly outpacing those of HD DVD. Since then, U.S. retailers from Best Buy Co. to Wal-Mart Stores Inc. have backed Blu-ray in the hope of putting an end to the battle, which has deterred many consumers from buying high-definition DVD players.

Toshiba's quick surrender is a sign of how grim the situation had become for the HD DVD side. The decision was unusually swift for a Japanese company, especially over an issue where corporate pride is at stake, and analysts had assumed Toshiba would let the business fade out quietly.
[Silver lining charts]

Investors welcomed Toshiba's pullout because the company no longer will spend money on a losing technology and it can focus on areas that are potentially more profitable. Since the news broke over the weekend, Toshiba's share price has risen 5% to 824 yen on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

Toshiba had hoped to increase its relatively small presence in the consumer-electronics industry, making it a pillar of growth in addition to its semiconductor and nuclear-reactor businesses.

Toshiba said about one million HD DVD players have been sold globally since they went on sale in March 2006, including players that can be attached to Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox 360 videogame console. That was far short of Blu-ray's 6.3 million players, according to the Blu-ray Disc Association. That figure includes sales of Sony's PlayStation 3 videogame console, which has a Blu-ray player.

Sony's Mr. Stringer said PlayStation 3 users played a big role in the format battle. "The early adopters were obviously the games enthusiasts, but before Christmas, we began to move past the early adopters into the mainstream audience...and that clearly drove content sales exponentially forward."
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^^ This has to be the best FUD killing, unbiased, and factually loaded summation of all of this that I think I've ever seen.
 
Toshiba has given up, I would suggest HD DVD fans to do the same. For those who said that digital distribution will win, let me ask you something, do you know why Blu-Ray wins this war? Blu-Ray wins it because the movie studios choose to go with Blu-Ray, so please ask youself, do you think that movie studios will choose the internet to distribute their movies? Even when you said that you won't buy a Blu-Ray disc and you would rather have a download service, you can't stop others from buying the disc. The movie studios are making money, they don't care about you or anyone else. If they say that they won't support digital distribution, don't think that digital distribution will have any chance to survive. Even with high speed internet, it won't mean a thing without any content.
 
alg7_munif said:
Toshiba has given up, I would suggest HD DVD fans to do the same. For those who said that digital distribution will win, let me ask you something, do you know why Blu-Ray wins this war? Blu-Ray wins it because the movie studios choose to go with Blu-Ray, so please ask youself, do you think that movie studios will choose the internet to distribute their movies? Even when you said that you won't buy a Blu-Ray disc and you would rather have a download service, you can't stop others from buying the disc. The movie studios are making money, they don't care about you or anyone else. If they say that they won't support digital distribution, don't think that digital distribution will have any chance to survive. Even with high speed internet, it won't mean a thing without any content.
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Look, I don't think that digital distribution will really catch on for a big way in the States for many years to come thanks to most people having crappy Internet connections, but you're completely wrong there. The studios want to make money, and if they see money in digital distribution, they will support it. You can already see rumblings of it with the Apple TV, though that's more for TV shows than movies at the moment. If the infrastructure is there and people demand it, then they'll do it. Locked up in more draconian DRM than even Blu-ray no doubt, but they'll do it. It's an infrastructure problem, not a studio problem right now.
 
farfromhome said:
Look, I don't think that digital distribution will really catch on for a big way in the States for many years to come thanks to most people having crappy Internet connections, but you're completely wrong there. The studios want to make money, and if they see money in digital distribution, they will support it. You can already see rumblings of it with the Apple TV, though that's more for TV shows than movies at the moment. If the infrastructure is there and people demand it, then they'll do it. Locked up in more draconian DRM than even Blu-ray no doubt, but they'll do it. It's an infrastructure problem, not a studio problem right now.
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You're right. Our infrastructure needs to vastly improve. The United States is a huge land mass, and only the largest cities have the fastest and most affordable internet. In such areas digital distribution is quite possible, and practical in the near future. But so much of the USA is too rural to have anything faster than 3 meg cable, which throttles your bandwidth like those rubber bands they use to castrate male lambs... You download one movie and you're throttled back to crappy speeds for the next 24 hrs. DSL is slowly catching up to cable with speeds. I don't know how they throttle bandwidth compared to cable providers, but consumers really don't have many practical options when it comes to hi def movie downloads yet. Many people in towns near me have adopted the PS3 and buy blu rays frequently. They are going to keep buying blu ray discs until they have a better alternative, and at least in the region in which I live, digital distribution is slow, prohibitively expensive, and just plain impractical right now. Some day it may be the way to go. I use Valve's Steam and it makes for CD-less reinstalls on new computers of all my favorite games. Once the game is installed, though, you can play it for hours and hours, especially multiplayer games. Movies, however, take up a lot of space, and in hi-def will take a long time to download, much longer than it will take you to watch the movie. You can go to wal-mart, best buy, or circuit city and walk out the door with a dozen blu-ray movies in 10 minuntes if you want. Until hi speed internet gets faster and movie downloads in hi def become more practical and more in demand, the market trend for the next gen. movies will steer towards blu-ray for now.
 
Digital Distro will hit in a BIG way when the Sat companies realize they already have a high-bandwidth conduit to your home and a set-top box with HD Playback and huge storage already in millions of homes.

Digital HD Distro is as simple as having you buying a Pay-per-View movie on Sat and storing it on your Tivo forever for an increased buy-in.
 
TheBluePill said:
Digital Distro will hit in a BIG way when the Sat companies realize they already have a high-bandwidth conduit to your home and a set-top box with HD Playback and huge storage already in millions of homes.

Digital HD Distro is as simple as having you buying a Pay-per-View movie on Sat and storing it on your Tivo forever for an increased buy-in.
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Kinda like how Satellite internet was supposed to provide broadband to the masses, right?
 
Until hi speed internet gets faster and movie downloads in hi def become more practical and more in demand, the market trend for the next gen. movies will steer towards blu-ray for now.
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The thing that frustrates me, is the whole business of bandwidth limits. ISP's could doom the digital distribution if they don't allow people to download what they want, how they want, when they want.

Just for example, I attend Penn State which allows me a 2GB a week download and upload. So, while I have a fast internet connection, I can't download anything. I can rent 1 movie a week from iTunes, as long as I don't have to download any Windows updates, not to mention any WoW updates. 2GB/Week is nothing.

It's frustrating to see how many uses the internet could serve, only to have an agency slap restrictions on it because they don't see the need.
 
ryan_975 said:
Kinda like how Satellite internet was supposed to provide broadband to the masses, right?
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NO.

Two Totally different concepts.

Latency, even above cost, was the killer for Sat Internet.

This is a whole different ball-game, They already have the equipment and capability in millions of homes, ready to turn on.

This is more like Cable-Interent being viable since people already had it running to their homes, or DSL over telephone lines.

The Cost of the Set-Top DVRs are so low, it is an affordable option for anyone, Couple that with the extreme low cost of Hard-Disk based storage, and the time is NOW for this.
 
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