Top 3 dislikes in Linux!

[Carlosinfl]

• No Direct X for games
• Samba (never works for me)
• Compile anything (I just hate that word)

 

[XOR != OR]

Are you serious?

1) Because MS wants to protect it's install base
2) PEBKAC
3) PEBKAC

Of these, I fail to see how these are your specific linux vedor's fault, let alone linux itself. in fact, there is quite a bit of work going into the whole direct x implementation under linux.

 

[[H]EMI_426]

1) The user base...I'm sick of a good portion of the Linux community wanting the answers spoon-fed to them now. What bugs me even more is when those same users try "OMG FREEBSD" and we have to deal with them there.

2) Lack of enforcable standards...It's great when every unique distribution does things differently.

3) No "killer apps." In a desktop sense, Windows has several killer apps, *nix has about fifty half-assed ones.

Honorable mention: buzzword status. It'll be great when people realize there's alternatives to Linux out there and the Linux zealots stop being so...Zealous about it.

I have to agree with ol' XOR on his analysis of your dislikes.

 

[Jason711]

having to be a fucking rocket scientist to install video card drivers... (ATi, atleast...)

you would think if they wanted the linux user base to grow they would make things easier.

 

[Carlosinfl]

Are you serious? Yes



Of these, I fail to see how these are your specific linux vedor's fault, let alone linux itself. in fact, there is quite a bit of work going into the whole direct x implementation under linux.

I never blamed Linux or any vendors for this, these are just my dislikes for my handicaps with Linux and nothing else.

 

[Jason711]

I never blamed Linux or any vendors for this, these are just my dislikes for my handicaps with Linux and nothing else.

i personally dont really give a shit about DirectX... the new OpenGL is just fine.

 

[Carlosinfl]

No direct X means no STEAM for Linux

 

[Jason711]

oh, im crying!

 

[C-Otto]

1) Linux let's you know where the problem is and often you can't change it (example: hardware failure, buggy chipset, ...). This is very frustrating!
With windows you can always think "the next driver will be better" or "that's just overheating, I can fix that".

2) Every once in a while you buy hardware that has something inside the package that won't work with Linux but you need it (example: HP OpenView, some printer management utilities, Abit 0v3rcl0cking stuff, ...)

3) No matter how much you love linux (I do a lot!) there is no reasonable way to explain someone old and/or dumb and/or lazy etc. why he should run Linux. I tried a lot but I failed.

4) Flash is still not available for amd64.
Other problematic programs: acroread (there are alternatives, but nothing is perfect), Java, ...

 

[berky]

1. Hardware - Sound for one. I ALWAYS have the hardest time getting sound to work. Graphics drivers (ATI.. nVidia's are easy) are hard to install or not able to install at all (xfree 4.4). Setting up monitor refresh rates and other BS manually for Xfree86. This shit should be auto-detected (aside from gfx - that's the damn vendor's fault) and should just work. straight up. Multi-buttoned mice and wireless support also piss me off.... getting hardware to work the way you want shouldn't be a daunting task.

2. Non-standards - Like hemi mentioned, every distro likes to do things their own way. This is good, to an extent. Most things are similar, but different enough to confuse most people. There should be a basic standard on how most things are presented to the user. Their implementation can be night and day for all I care, as long as I know how to change shit and find what I'm looking for fast and easily.

3. Hardware - Oh, I mentioned this already? well, it deserves another spot in the top 3....



side note: what is PEBKAC?

 

[Archer75]

1) lack of software that I use. And software that is available for linux is rather poor.

2) lack of linux hardware support from vendors

3) The Linux Community. Many elitists. Most are very arrogant.

 

[Carlosinfl]

3) The Linux Community. Many elitists. Most are very arrogant.

I agree with you 100%. As many think that people are lazy and dont search or try but sometimes a google search leaves more questions than answers and its best to ask 1 - 1 and not to mention this is the main focus point of a Linux forum...people ask questions.

World record for run on sentence!

 

[brendon2020]

• No Direct X for games
• Samba (never works for me)
• Compile anything (I just hate that word)

hmm,
1) Cedega, works for most games.
2) What are you doing wrong, just allow a guest user and you're set
3) apt-get install packagename; can't go wrong with debian

Most things i hate about linux
1) Most linux users, i'm not the kinda person that wants answers given to me but sometimes i need help. First time i compiled the 2.6 kernel, and man oh man were the people in #debian mean
2) Thats all i really hate about linux, other than that you can't go wrong.

 

[pr0zac]

1. I dislike the large number of people who are now using linux because its "cool" etc etc. Yes linux is cool, but that shouldn't be the reason to use it.

2. I too agree that a large number of linux knowledgeables are a bit elitist. Then again, most ALL knowledgeables in any circle are a bit elitist.

3. Lack of support for some software is annoying also.

Complaints about the ATI drivers should really be directed at ATI, not linux as its their damn fault for releasing bad drivers. You don't hear people yelling at Microsoft when a driver fails in Windows. Also, gaming is getting a lot better with OpenGL (Doom 3 anyone?) and WineX is pretty cool.

-zac

 

[apHytHiaTe]

[offtopic=pepkac_ex]

*snip*
side note: what is PEBKAC?

Problem
Exists
Between
Keyboard
And
Chair

[/offtopic]

 

[odoe]

On the samba issue, I just upgraded my ClarkConnect box to 2.2 and samba was being a pain in the ass. The Webmin CP was not doing what it should. I added my XP user, I added my 2 shares of /music and /media off a seperate drive, supposedly set them to mask at 0755 and I still could not write to the drives. This worked before, but not now. So I got through smbpsswd, smbusers, smb.conf, manually add the shares and finally came down to chmod -R 0777 the 2 shares, teh only way it would work. Now this makes me uncomfortable, even though this box is behind everything and then I realize if I would have just chown to my user from the default root, then maybe this all would have worked to being with, I'm copying about 40 gigs right now, but when it's done, I'm going to try it and if it works, I am going to kick myself. Oh man, PEBKAC strikes again.

Ok, so now I check the [H] forums after digging through CC forums and I see that I might need a regedit to connect to SMB with XP/SP2. Crap, I knew I should have checked here forst.

 

[BillLeeLee]

side note: what is PEBKAC?

Problem exists between keyboard and user

Here's a nice shirt: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/6692/

My dislikes about Linux?

1.) User base - You can have those users who are helpful, but like everyone else says, for each one you find, you can find 20x more people who are assholes or might be too lazy to learn. I've seen some questions asked that didn't need to be asked if the user had read the basic install manual.

2.) Hardware configs - I'm sick of manually entering screen vertical and horizontal refresh rates. Some distros like SuSE will autodetect the monitor's settings, but when setting up some other distros with monitors I don't know the specs of, it can be pretty frustrating and I might have to use really crappy safe specs. Sound set up used to be a bitch before 2.6, but I think it's much better now.

3.) Some software. I've pretty much stuck to a defined set of software that I use now, but there are some software that I just can't find an equivalent for. I'm a Microsoft Office user, and OpenOffice still messes up some formatting with my doc files, maybe I should look more into that. The GIMP is powerful and very good, yes, but Photoshop Elements is easier and I feel more intuitive to use.

However, I use Linux mainly for project work and development now, so software gripes are not as important.

 

[compslckr]

[offtopic=pepkac_ex]



Problem
Exists
Between
Keyboard
And
Chair

[/offtopic]

i just got a shirt that says that for christmas.

anyways, 3 things i dont like about linux

1) lack of good games (you can only play quake 3 so many times )

2) in some cases there are too many options for customization.

3) cant think of anything else

 

[[H]EMI_426]

I agree with you 100%. As many think that people are lazy and dont search or try but sometimes a google search leaves more questions than answers and its best to ask 1 - 1 and not to mention this is the main focus point of a Linux forum...people ask questions.

World record for run on sentence!

Arrogant? You're damn right. Most of us earned our stripes the hard way. You seem to forget that a lot of the "arrogant" *nix people are the same ones that learned a good chunk of their *nix basics disconnected from the Internet, before there were handy documentation projects, etc. Most of us learned things on our own and learned how to learn on our own. HOWTOs, man pages and the documentation that came with applications...That's it.

That's what seems to be abundant in the community at large...The willingness to demand an answer instead of working at it till you get it yourself. A good number of us "arrogant" types learned long ago that it's better to know how to find info for ourselves than rely on others for that info. The "new kids" don't. Very few "basic" requests for help I've seen here (and just about everywhere else) aren't done in a collegial or professional manner, and that's part of the problem. If you have a problem, state it clearly. When you ask for help, tell us what the problem is, what the symptoms are in detail, list what you've tried, where you've looked for information, any deviations from "stock" setup, etc. Be patient. Be willing to try things again, just in case they didn't get done right the first time.

I've posted very few questions here, and the ones I've posted have been primarily "style" questions (about how other administrators do things) or really tough questions that basically no one's been able to answer. I don't think I'm any sharper than most of the other users here, I just think I know how to find what I'm looking for without bugging other people.

Learn to find your own info, people! I seriously doubt that the vast majority of problems people post here haven't been encountered before. However, if your problem is truly unique or you can't find a good solution after dilligent work on your part, try to help the people that are trying to help you.

Doing these few things will go a long way towards making the "arrogant" people less condescending towards questions and the people that ask them.

 

[Archer75]

"1) Cedega, works for most games."

Cedega works for a few games. And by work I mean these few games will play problem free. The vast majority of DirectX games just run like crap under Cedega. But at least they do run.


When I have linux questions I hit up all the forums and google. Alot of the information is very outdated or written for someone who already knows thier way around linux. Often times when I do find an answer to my question I don't understand much of the terminology used or the steps required to fix my particular issue. So then I have to go look all that up.

Other times I apply the info I found only to find it does'nt work. And on my search I found 3 more ways to do the same thing. Each one contradicting another and not working. There just is no standard to linux, too much variation. So one answer applies to one distro and not necessarily to another.

My most recent problem was with installing Nvidia drivers. Now this wasen't a problem in XFree86, but with xorg I can't get them to work. Hell, even SuSE already had RPMs for it and I still couldn't get it to work. And i've tried it with 3 different distros. Even hit up newsgroups for each as the process was just a bit different. I googled. I emailed. Everything. Could not get it to work. I have to use the forums for the answers and you just get people who are dicks. I can somewhat understand as i'm sure they hear these questions often. But they tend to be dicks about everything. It's more an attitude of "I'm better than you" rather than one of frustration over the same question.
I

 

[MTB2Live Live4Comps]

1) no standards base, very little "lets work to together and make a great application" and instead too much of "lets make our own half assed application"
2) package management. you've got rpms, .debs, ebuilds, tgzs, etc. can't we just settle on ONE and then combine all the benifits of each into that ONE, and then give the user the option of source or binary?
3) this is probably a problem with ME (i guess i just suck at reading documentation and couldn't find any howtos), but samba could probably be made a bit easier
steming from #3 - some kind of central system wide configuration utitility, which could only come after #1 has been worked out.
4) hardware optimization. encoding is just so damn slow in linux (only reason i bother to have windows installed)

 

[brendon2020]

"1) Cedega, works for most games."

Cedega works for a few games. And by work I mean these few games will play problem free. The vast majority of DirectX games just run like crap under Cedega. But at least they do run.
I

i should've said a few, just i've been out of the linux loop for awhile now. Last i was on linux was when winex became cedega, and i could run bfnam. I see you can run steam now, thing is i know valve will break steam for linux users with every update they release.

 

[LoStMaTt]

No direct X means no STEAM for Linux

This is why the developers need to get their ass in gear and start pumping out OpenGL based games.

 

[NewBlackDak]

I got my roots in *NIX parsing through huge barely english man pages, docs, and scouring the web. You eventually learn the correct way to search to find what you're looking for. Most aren't willing though. They want a quick answer that requires no though on their part. you know the old addage, "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Tech a man to fish, and he'll never be hungry."


I find most computer related problems( in any OS ) are PEBKAC or 1D10T errors.

 

[MEfreak]

1. 
   

   I got my roots in *NIX parsing through huge barely english man pages, docs, and scouring the web. You eventually learn the correct way to search to find what you're looking for. Most aren't willing though. They want a quick answer that requires no though on their part. you know the old addage, "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Tech a man to fish, and he'll never be hungry."

   
   I have a different perspective. It seems to me that the *nix "elitists" always assume the worst case - ID10T that doesn't want to learn, only wants a quick fix - unless the questioner goes to great pains to assure everyone that they have done their legwork and still came up dry. I understand that 90% of all questions are, indeed, asked by these types, but it's quite a shock to those who actually want to learn and need some help to be told "RTFM you F**N noob!" only because you didn't include the placative disclaimer of "I searched, I came up dry, would one of you geniuses please, please help me?"
   
   When I first installed *nix, my first task was to set up Samba, SSH, and edit the hosts files. Well, it just so happens that this particular distro used a very weird format in the hosts.allow and hosts.deny files, and I couldn't get it working for the life of me. Of course, this distro also stripped all the info and man files out of packages to save space, which hurt a bit, and searches on the net revealed formats for the standard hosts files in most distros. So coming to my wits end, I posted a question in the support forum. 10 minutes later, I had about 5 different people offering advice on how to insert my head in my arse for being a "worthless noob who can't even read a man page" It was only after much stroking that these peacocks settled down, offered some vague advice, and then came to realize a bit later on that even they didn't know how to format the hosts files. This one experience just about caused me to close my doors to *nix forever. Why were there so many jerks just waiting to pounce on me for asking a question to which they didn't even know the answer?
   
   So why not just assume that posters have done some research, are truly coming up agaisnt a wall, and offer some help? If you believe that you're dealing with a noob, why not offer some constructive advice such as pointing to the documents and references that will help the poster learn on his/her own how to solve the problem? Does the standard "RTFM" response really encourage anyone to learn on their own?
   
   It's fine to be discriminating, critical, and probative, but arrogance, in the true sense of the word, is never warranted.
   
2. Standard structures and formats. Most of the proprietary file structures and document formats that I've come across are completely identical in function, but completely confusing when trying to learn the new format.
   
3. Documentation is written for the more learned *nix user, which is fairly worthless for the *nix noob. If I had come across more documentation aimed at the new user, my transition from Windows would have been much, much easier. Sometimes I get the impression that documentation is left wanting so that poor souls such as myself have to ask questions, and provide flame fodder for the *nix "elite"
   
   I also find that documentation is often lacking, regardless of the quality of writing. My biggest gripe is with missing flags in man pages...don't run into this often, but often enough that it's on my list.

I find that reducing life to one liners and proverbs is naivete in it's most pure form. I also get the distinct impression that a lot of the *nix "elite" would think telling a 10 year old to read the rod/reel manual equates to teaching him how to fish

 

[ScYcS]

1. software installation is a pain (mostly no standard installers)
2. failed dependencies are just totally dumb things that should've been dealt with in the distant past
3. hardware and software support even from big companies (ATI anyone?) is still disgracefully subpar


There are many more reason to dislike Linux as a desktop OS for the "normal" user, but you wanted my top 3...

 

[NewBlackDak]

also get the distinct impression that a lot of the *nix "elite" would think telling a 10 year old to read the rod/reel manual equates to teaching him how to fish

LMFAO. Well, you probably are right on that one, and I agree the manuals are very bad in places. I don't remember being flamed so bad when I was a noob. The very first question I ever asked: "What are these man pages they're talking about?" They must've been in a very good mood that day!! Anyway I finally figured out how to read a man, and the first instruction in that was to rename a file and modify permissions on it so all had execute and read, but none had write. I had to figure out(using search engines) what programs even did this and then read the mans to learn how to use them. Needless to say it was painful the first few weeks.

OH yeah, I never listed my gripes.

1. Hardware manufacturers either developing "Win" hardware, or not even bothering with the driver. Then no hardware specs on top of that. Too much diversity is bad sometimes. The HW devs might be much more inclined to write drivers if there is more standard way of doing things. EG ATI(forget they suck for a moment) and NVIDIA both have drivers for their products. The way they're implemented is totally different.
2. Bad documentation everywhere, and bad commentation in source.
3. The general ignorance. The eliteist category is part of that. It's an OS not the savior of the world, and MS is not the antichrist. Also noobs thinking Linux is somehow "Windows compatible". I still haven't figured out what that's supposed to mean.

 

[j-rock]

1. How much griping there is between each other. Gentoo vs. Debian comes to mind. Linux vs. bsd. You can never stop the holy wars though. But community is what holds our (computing) world together.

2. How linux has turned into a fad of sorts. When I wanted to go 100% linux I spent a couple months pouring over the documentation and reviews of different distros and testing them myself. (finally settled on BSD though heh). Now people just download a cd and expect hand holding. (sorry, i am bitter)

3. Lack of industry respect. This one is just a F/OSS irritant in general.

 

[r0cketrider]

Wow...at least you are honest because that is one hell of an arrogant post.

You know the New England Journal of Medicine has just released a study showing that the old way of teaching doctors (when they are interns) by having them stay up as long as 36 hours straight has seriously comprimised patient safety. However many of the existing doctors get all caught up in the "well I had to do it, so do you" metality. Seems it is the same in the *nix community.

You know at one time you had to handcrank a car to get it started, you had to go out and hand pump your water out of a well, etc.

How about those people that are being told that "windows is unsafe, you need a safer, more stable OS, go get linux".

These people are interested in the OS ONLY as the "thing" that their programs run on. They could give two shits about SAMBA this, command line that, "compile" any damn thing.

They want it to work and NO they do not want to because "gurus", experts, or even advanced users. So NO they do NOT want to RTFM, or peruse a thousand news groups, or any damn thing else like that.

Then again the *nix community can go ahead and keep up this attitude and watch *nix be permanently banished to server rooms and embedded devices; and that is a situation where we once again lose the pressure on MS to improve and we all end up with the same old, same old that existed prior to the rise of linux. A shame really.

Arrogant? You're damn right. Most of us earned our stripes the hard way. You seem to forget that a lot of the "arrogant" *nix people are the same ones that learned a good chunk of their *nix basics disconnected from the Internet, before there were handy documentation projects, etc. Most of us learned things on our own and learned how to learn on our own. HOWTOs, man pages and the documentation that came with applications...That's it.

That's what seems to be abundant in the community at large...The willingness to demand an answer instead of working at it till you get it yourself. A good number of us "arrogant" types learned long ago that it's better to know how to find info for ourselves than rely on others for that info. The "new kids" don't. Very few "basic" requests for help I've seen here (and just about everywhere else) aren't done in a collegial or professional manner, and that's part of the problem. If you have a problem, state it clearly. When you ask for help, tell us what the problem is, what the symptoms are in detail, list what you've tried, where you've looked for information, any deviations from "stock" setup, etc. Be patient. Be willing to try things again, just in case they didn't get done right the first time.

I've posted very few questions here, and the ones I've posted have been primarily "style" questions (about how other administrators do things) or really tough questions that basically no one's been able to answer. I don't think I'm any sharper than most of the other users here, I just think I know how to find what I'm looking for without bugging other people.

Learn to find your own info, people! I seriously doubt that the vast majority of problems people post here haven't been encountered before. However, if your problem is truly unique or you can't find a good solution after dilligent work on your part, try to help the people that are trying to help you.

Doing these few things will go a long way towards making the "arrogant" people less condescending towards questions and the people that ask them.

 

[Terpfen]

1) The lack of support. As this thread documented, if you can't figure out the badly-written manuals, you can look forward to a good "RTFM noob!" from the experienced users.

2) Linux's inability to move past the command line. Sorry, but if I have to open a command line to accomplish something, you've failed the OS wars.

3) Most *nix distributions are pretty specific in what they're meant to do... it's just that none of them target the home user. It's frustrating that these talented programmers can't figure out how to get a usable and attractive GUI going, and are instead content to sit there and figure out how to emulate new Windows features instead of making their own. Meanwhile, Apple came along, took the Unix source, and created OS X, which is really Linux done right.

 

[[H]EMI_426]

Wow...at least you are honest because that is one hell of an arrogant post.

You know the New England Journal of Medicine has just released a study showing that the old way of teaching doctors (when they are interns) by having them stay up as long as 36 hours straight has seriously comprimised patient safety. However many of the existing doctors get all caught up in the "well I had to do it, so do you" metality. Seems it is the same in the *nix community.

Good thing we're dealing with computer and not people, then.

You know at one time you had to handcrank a car to get it started, you had to go out and hand pump your water out of a well, etc.

I actually know how to drive lots of vehicles and yes, I've hand-cranked a car before. I grew up on a farm where most of the water came from a well. What's your point?

I guess you're trying to imply that technology marches on. Sure it does. However, the need to be able to understand things hasn't and that's where the problem lies.

How about those people that are being told that "windows is unsafe, you need a safer, more stable OS, go get linux".

They are interpreting misinformation as fact. Windows, with just a few additions, makes a fine "end-user" OS. I use Windows for my primary desktop operating system. I've never had problems with viruses or spyware...Why? Because I bother to pay attention and am willing to keep things in good shape. Eventually the Linux end-user is going to get thwacked with some large exploit similar to what you see fairly regularly in the Windows world cause lazy users are a liability to everyone regardless of what OS they run.

The people who try Linux due to a knee-jerk reaction should really worry about just doing a few things to their Windows boxes to fix their existing problems.

These people are interested in the OS ONLY as the "thing" that their programs run on. They could give two shits about SAMBA this, command line that, "compile" any damn thing.

Unfortunately, with the current state of affairs in the *nix world, that's the way it is. They do at least need to understand what's going on. If they don't want to put in the effort to do that, then they should stick with something that doesn't require so much effort.

Who said anything about compiling stuff? I certainly don't compile every application that runs on the hundreds of machines I admin.

They want it to work and NO they do not want to because "gurus", experts, or even advanced users. So NO they do NOT want to RTFM, or peruse a thousand news groups, or any damn thing else like that.

Too bad. Don't expect much help from the people that would be helpful. We'll let the level one guys handle the vast majority of "lame" user questions and maybe when something interesting comes along we'll put our two cents in.

Then again the *nix community can go ahead and keep up this attitude and watch *nix be permanently banished to server rooms and embedded devices; and that is a situation where we once again lose the pressure on MS to improve and we all end up with the same old, same old that existed prior to the rise of linux. A shame really.

*nix isn't going anywhere. Linux hurts house-brand *nix vendors a lot more than it hurts Microsoft. Linux is barely on Microsoft's RADAR as far as "loss of profit" goes. I'm ok with *nix staying a "geek and professional toy." It keeps the pinheads out.

I'm looking at it from a real-world, professional point of view. You seem to be looking at it from an idealistic, "greater good" point of view. That's where the difference is.

Of course, I'm also the type that believes the Internet at large was a lot better place before everyone found it. "So easy, anyone can do it!" Too bad everyone did.

You don't have to agree. I'm not expecting you to. The thread was about gripes; this is the biggest one I have. I've been doing this "*nix thing" for a while and it's just got progressively worse as time marches on.

 

[AdamW]

terpfen: that's never been my perception of support; I run Mandrake, and I've never been short of excellent assistance when I have problems, and I do my best to help others too (you'll never, ever hear me tell anyone to RTFM, though I do occasionally politely suggest that the parameter they're looking for is listed right at the start of the manpage :>). #mandrake on IRC and mandrakeusers.org are both full of extremely helpful and polite people supporting a product in which they have no interest except enthusiasm for free, which is a heck of a good deal when you look at it with the right perspective.

There's no shortage of home-user aimed distros, either; Mandrake is certainly aimed at home users in one of its many guises, and then there's Xandros, Linspire and Lycoris/LX.

You also have a bad attitude towards the command line; the CLI is not dead nor is it obsolete nor is the GUI better than it in all cases. There are and always will be some cases in which a CLI is simply superior. Even under Windows - I work for a cableco which provides internet access, and sometimes sit near the tech support guys. One of the most common things I hear them instructing someone to do is force the system to renew the DHCP lease. This is something you can do either through the GUI or from a DOS prompt. Without exception they instruct the customer to use the DOS prompt, because it's easier to do and easier to explain how. It's also interesting to note that Microsoft are working on an extensive overhaul of their CLI for Longhorn. Experienced Linux users use the command line not because the GUI is somehow bad or impossible to use but because some things are easier to do at the command line. We often suggest people needing help do things at the command line not because they couldn't do it through the GUI but because it's faster and simpler to do through the CLI.

My top three:

Number one, by far, the sorry state of Linux audio. The fact that there is not yet a single standard transparent software mixing layer is unforgivable and mainly the fault of the ALSA project for being insular, badly organised and *hideously* documented.

Number two, wireless support - it's the fault of the manufacturers, but that doesn't make it any better.

Number three, a more personal one, the fact that TwinView isn't quite perfect yet...apps don't all fullscreen properly, and it wigs out if I switch to a virtual console and back.

 

[Terpfen]

terpfen: that's never been my perception of support; I run Mandrake, and I've never been short of excellent assistance when I have problems, and I do my best to help others too (you'll never, ever hear me tell anyone to RTFM, though I do occasionally politely suggest that the parameter they're looking for is listed right at the start of the manpage :>). #mandrake on IRC and mandrakeusers.org are both full of extremely helpful and polite people supporting a product in which they have no interest except enthusiasm for free, which is a heck of a good deal when you look at it with the right perspective.

There's no shortage of home-user aimed distros, either; Mandrake is certainly aimed at home users in one of its many guises, and then there's Xandros, Linspire and Lycoris/LX.

I used Mandrake once upon a time--I believe it was 8.0--because I bought into the idea that it really was fine for home use. It installed fine and everything, but it just dropped me onto the desktop without an opening guide explaining some of the differences between it and Windows, including file system organization or how to untar things. This was crucial: see, I couldn't get my DSL modem to work even though I downloaded the drivers off the product website. I had no help whatsoever, could not figure out how to get it to work, gave up. Linux has some fundamental steps it needs to take.

While I'm sure things have come a long way since my brief experience, they aren't up to the level of OS X in terms of usability or intuitive use.

You also have a bad attitude towards the command line; the CLI is not dead nor is it obsolete nor is the GUI better than it in all cases.

For home use, the GUI is supreme. No, I don't like the command line, because I consider it a hindrance to usability when its usage is required. Now, using the command line to speed up or simplify tasks as in your example is one thing, but when I NEED to go into the command line to do something that I should otherwise be able to do in the GUI, well, "Houston, we have a problem."

 

[Josh_B]

Arrogant? You're damn right. Most of us earned our stripes the hard way. You seem to forget that a lot of the "arrogant" *nix people are the same ones that learned a good chunk of their *nix basics disconnected from the Internet, before there were handy documentation projects, etc. Most of us learned things on our own and learned how to learn on our own. HOWTOs, man pages and the documentation that came with applications...That's it.

That's what seems to be abundant in the community at large...The willingness to demand an answer instead of working at it till you get it yourself. A good number of us "arrogant" types learned long ago that it's better to know how to find info for ourselves than rely on others for that info. The "new kids" don't. Very few "basic" requests for help I've seen here (and just about everywhere else) aren't done in a collegial or professional manner, and that's part of the problem. If you have a problem, state it clearly. When you ask for help, tell us what the problem is, what the symptoms are in detail, list what you've tried, where you've looked for information, any deviations from "stock" setup, etc. Be patient. Be willing to try things again, just in case they didn't get done right the first time.

I've posted very few questions here, and the ones I've posted have been primarily "style" questions (about how other administrators do things) or really tough questions that basically no one's been able to answer. I don't think I'm any sharper than most of the other users here, I just think I know how to find what I'm looking for without bugging other people.

Learn to find your own info, people! I seriously doubt that the vast majority of problems people post here haven't been encountered before. However, if your problem is truly unique or you can't find a good solution after dilligent work on your part, try to help the people that are trying to help you.

Doing these few things will go a long way towards making the "arrogant" people less condescending towards questions and the people that ask them.

Precisely.

I read more *nix information everyday, of my own free will. I've amassed about three large bookcases full of books dedicated to various topics associated with Linux, and programming. Why? Because I know that it's better to learn things on my own, and only ask questions when I've exhausted all other options. Why should I be spoonfed answers, when even if someone typed the commands in for me, I wouldn't know what they did?

Don't expect me or anyone else to simply GIVE you an answer without at least showing some effort on your part. I don't get paid and don't have the time or will to answer, "Why doesn't X start automatically at boot time?", or other questions which are easily solveable via Google or the library.

 

[Josh_B]

LMFAO. Well, you probably are right on that one, and I agree the manuals are very bad in places. I don't remember being flamed so bad when I was a noob. The very first question I ever asked: "What are these man pages they're talking about?" They must've been in a very good mood that day!! Anyway I finally figured out how to read a man, and the first instruction in that was to rename a file and modify permissions on it so all had execute and read, but none had write. I had to figure out(using search engines) what programs even did this and then read the mans to learn how to use them. Needless to say it was painful the first few weeks.

The reason no one flamed you was because at least you were showing an interest in learning on your own. (Instead of being lazy and hoping someone else, (who was required to spend hours learning the same thing on their own), will simply answer the question for you.)

 

[BobSutan]

No direct X means no STEAM for Linux

Heh, you make it sound as if that's a bad thing

 

[RavinDJ]

Arrogant? You're damn right. Most of us earned our stripes the hard way. You seem to forget that a lot of the "arrogant" *nix people are the same ones that learned a good chunk of their *nix basics disconnected from the Internet, before there were handy documentation projects, etc. Most of us learned things on our own and learned how to learn on our own. HOWTOs, man pages and the documentation that came with applications...That's it.

That's what seems to be abundant in the community at large...The willingness to demand an answer instead of working at it till you get it yourself. A good number of us "arrogant" types learned long ago that it's better to know how to find info for ourselves than rely on others for that info. The "new kids" don't. Very few "basic" requests for help I've seen here (and just about everywhere else) aren't done in a collegial or professional manner, and that's part of the problem. If you have a problem, state it clearly. When you ask for help, tell us what the problem is, what the symptoms are in detail, list what you've tried, where you've looked for information, any deviations from "stock" setup, etc. Be patient. Be willing to try things again, just in case they didn't get done right the first time.

I've posted very few questions here, and the ones I've posted have been primarily "style" questions (about how other administrators do things) or really tough questions that basically no one's been able to answer. I don't think I'm any sharper than most of the other users here, I just think I know how to find what I'm looking for without bugging other people.

Learn to find your own info, people! I seriously doubt that the vast majority of problems people post here haven't been encountered before. However, if your problem is truly unique or you can't find a good solution after dilligent work on your part, try to help the people that are trying to help you.

Doing these few things will go a long way towards making the "arrogant" people less condescending towards questions and the people that ask them.

Great post! I agree with it one hundred and ten percent. I must say I did ask my share of stupid questions just out of being lazy... never in this thread, but in others.

Good job!

 

[locutus24]

Well felt like restarting this thread, for that because you have learned linux beyond what most know or that you learned without the internet dont mean crap. Being arrogant means that your just stupid, so i dont care if you know more then me and just for that i will continue asking questions.To all you arrogant pieces of quit it ok, its not helping anyone and it just makes you look like the n00b.

 

[HHunt]

Well felt like restarting this thread, for that because you have learned linux beyond what most know or that you learned without the internet dont mean crap. Being arrogant means that your just stupid, so i dont care if you know more then me and just for that i will continue asking questions.To all you arrogant pieces of quit it ok, its not helping anyone and it just makes you look like the n00b.

Actually, no. Arrogance isn't neccesarily undefendable. Sure, being helpful and round around the edges with people asking questions is a good thing, but I have no problem with the people I'm asking expecting me to make some research on my own.

As I hope you've noticed here, we're a civilized bunch if you show signs of having tried before asking. I seem to remember that you've been doing ok in that respect.

 

[deuce868]

1) People feel the need to make it on a level with Windows on the desktop.

Personally I feel that there are different tools for different things. I use Linux in my office where I feel it is the better tool. The whole move to linux was about using php and mysql since my non-profit I worked for could not take the plunge into MS SQL Server when our .asp application outgrew out access database. I use Windows Terminal Server and for my users it's the better tool out there.

Sure, I use Linux on my laptop/desktop but I also have a windows desktop for the tools I need on there. It took me several years of try and give up to finally get comfortable in Linux full time. It's different and people just can't expect to pick it up in a weekend or even a week.

2) The difference in distros make it a pain to get work in other environments.

I personally love debian and feel backward whenever I touch a RH system. I've been job hunting and because of the differences it makes it harder for me to get in with places wanting RH, Solaris, and such. It will be nice when the LSB comes into its own and I can feel comfortable looking for network config files in several distros.

3) Hardware support can be troublesome

In the end this falls on manufacturers but all of us that have put in our time in linux have had to face our battles getting X or Y device to work in Linux. At times this becomes a deal killer. I once spent 3 weeks on newgroups and irc trying to get sound to work on a laptop and just couldn't take it. Asking me to give up my mp3s while doing my dev work was not acceptable. In the end I went back to windows.

Hardware support is getting better, but maybe it just seems so to me as my hardware ages and things are now default supported.