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Tobit Wants YOU
- Thread starter Tobit
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Absolutely, please do not stop any actively running SMP clients to do this.. I mentioned this in my initial post. We need all the points we can to hold off EVGA. My post is for those people who still have single or slow dual core systems sitting idle or in the closet of which I know there are many.
Personally, I wish they would abolish the bonus system altogether and return to a fixed points system we had in the past. It is not good to have a system that overly accentuates the 'newest and greatest' hardware. There are serious ramifications which I am expecting in the future and we might be witnessing when the next microarchitectures are released in 2011. There's a big downside to this and I am not liking what I'm already seeing despite the fact I have benefited from it since last year.
Which bonus system? The bonus system used today was implemented with the release of -bigadv in 2009. I would like to know about your experience because I remember you were a big producer in the past. What happened exactly?
I have plenty of old hardware enough for another farm if I start rebuilding everything I have. Main problem is the additional heat all these systems would put out. It's a bad season to be doing that but I will get started on my laptop. At least that has a modern processor with a decent frequency. It should complete a couple of WUs a week even running part time.
ThreeDee
[H]F Junkie
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slapped a s775 setup together .. waiting for a core2 chip and 9800gtx to put on this evga 650i Ultra mobo .. in the meantime .. threw in a celery [email protected] and running the "classic" client until the parts come in..
I'll donate a rig to the cause if someone wants to pick it up.
If someone wants it I have a complete Athlon XP free of charge (again, if you pick it up) I live in Southern NH but work in Cambridge, Mass (onceagain, if you wanna pick it up...)
Not sure which CPU it is, one of three possibilities 2500+, 2700+ and 2800+ as I had three of these at one point.
A7N8X-Deluxe plus who knows which CPU above
Swiftech MCX462 1/2" copper base unit
Enermax 651watt PSU (total overkill lol)
All Alluminum Case with 80mm fans (pure win)
If someone wants it I have a complete Athlon XP free of charge (again, if you pick it up) I live in Southern NH but work in Cambridge, Mass (onceagain, if you wanna pick it up...)
Not sure which CPU it is, one of three possibilities 2500+, 2700+ and 2800+ as I had three of these at one point.
A7N8X-Deluxe plus who knows which CPU above
Swiftech MCX462 1/2" copper base unit
Enermax 651watt PSU (total overkill lol)
All Alluminum Case with 80mm fans (pure win)
DUDE! I live in Manchester. I'll come get it. However, I am off to my cottage at Wallis Sands for the week, I'll be back on the 11th. Can we hookup when I get back? Thanks man!
sirmonkey1985
[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
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agree i think the bonus system is dumb.. but theres not much you can do about it now except deal with it.. F@H would lose way more people if they got rid of the bonus system now then they lost going to the bonus system.. along with the fact that if it wasnt for the bonus system most of us wouldnt own the systems we own now so you have to think about it that way.. how many of us have wasted thousands and thousands of dollars of folding rigs just because of the bonus system.. you go away from the bonus system.. then what the fuck was the point in spending all that money.. the SR-2 would become useless and serve absolutely no purpose.. hell 90% of our farms would become completely useless to own..
so it has its good and bads.. just gotta roll with the punches..
I understand the current dilemma in rescinding the system at this juncture, it's plainly too late. The gate is already open and come what may. I just wish additional forethought went into this when they had a window of opportunity upon the ascension of A3. Linux A2 was down for the count and A3 -bigadv could have been modeled with more consideration to all the older hardware that brought the focus onto -bigadv in the first place back in '09.
What I'm attempting to point out while maintaining political correctness is the graph depicting the exponential scale of the bonus system should have been more level (conservative), to avoid overemphasizing the performance of bleeding edge hardware that the privileged few can afford to purchase new. Whither Nehalem at Sandy's advent? Relegation to second-class status is where, and all other hardware to the dust bin. The bonus system artificially accelerates 'obsolescence' and worse, competing architectures are rendered even less competitive because of the inherent lack of code optimizations. This is what I fear will inevitably be the legacy of the Pandora's Box that has been opened...
sirmonkey1985
[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
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well theres 2 sides to it.. if you look at it from their side of why they did the bonus system.. meaning less science ends up getting done and F@H continues at a snails pace..
lets see fixed point system = people wont end up upgrading because theres no real incentive.. so people would stick to what they already own..
setup a bonus system = people will upgrade more often, build more systems to gain as many points as possible. thus in this effect it also means projects get done much faster and the science behind F@H moves at a much faster pace..
i mean look at it this way.. since the implementation of the bonus system the actual work done in F@H has doubled and tripled because they have created something that interests people.. people enjoy competition, people enjoy seeing points because it actually makes them feel like their doing something especially with the younger crowd.. its just the age we live in now.. back when F@H first started it was mostly adults/parents and every once in a while their kids running it. i mean how many people did [H] have posting in the DC section under the age of 18? not many that i can recall since the then the group has gotten much younger because the current point system interests them..
so the current point system does have its uses.. without it none of us would bother wasting money on SR-2 rigs knowing that it would only net us maybe a few thousand extra points.. with the point system now going from a single socket to dual socket nets you more then double the points which ends meaning more science gets done in the long run..
in the end i think it has more to do with us long time folders having to get use to the changes then F@H really needing to change(still doesnt mean i like the point system but i understand its use).. i think people tend to get stuck in their ways and dont like change and this is whats happening right now with F@H..
Actually there's more than two sides in this debate and I'm not taking either of the two obvious sides, i.e. with or without bonus. I'm advocating a bonus system this is more moderate and less skewed towards high-end systems the way it is currently.
I've been folding since 2001. The vast majority of those years there was no bonus system in effect. It has been the case that incentives to upgrade hardware for F@H always existed in the past. Never in previous years was there stagnation in the upgrade aspects of F@H. Whenever upgrades slowed down it was invariably due to the manufacturers involved (Intel and AMD) for whatever reasons related to their product lines at the time. Never because of the point system.
That would have still been the case if -bigadv was simply configured with a static point system of the regular A1/A2 SMP WUs, but simply granted a larger value. There would still have been that incentive to continuously upgrade as long as there was greater production resulted from the investment. The emphasis now is towards mega-core, very high frequency SINGLE box setups in contrast to the traditional small farms - components required thereof fewer and fewer people can afford because of the huge upfront cost. It is a major material and psychological barrier increasingly decried by people in the folding community. The more emphasis is applied to single monster-system setups, the lesser and lesser segments of the population will be capable of finding resources necessary to attain such systems.
So, it's a double-edged sword, and I lean towards 'pluralism' as I do in everything even if it means somewhat slower turn in of WUs or slightly less science achieved - if indeed that is the case. Some precedents are simply better not set for ethical reasons.
I am very doubtful of the work being several times higher because of the bonus system in and of itself. We don't know what -bigadv could have been because it always incorporated the bonus points from the days it was in beta. Standard SMP didn't have the bonus system as such prior to A3, has regular SMP workload tripled in the past few months?
I can't give you a very good idea of member age in the old days but I do remember a large range of ages. And, IINM there were a lot of people under 25 years of age nearly a decade ago. I recall a few members mentioning their ages and there were a lot of younger folks. The reason I remember this distinctly is because I was always one of the older folks here, so it stuck in my mind prominently.
Multiple sockets has always had its advantages. Heck, I was running a hex-socket ALR server in G@H, which I still have. We don't need a disproportionately allotting bonus system to ingratiate mega systems for their capabilities - they manage it quite fine on their own accord. I just think this mad rush for building $3000 to $5000 systems is alarming to those less financially endowed. Surely, there must be someone else who sees what I am seeing...??
I don't believe we're that far in opinion. I'm not completely disagreeing with you here, I just believe the bonus system is a little too rewarding to those with deeper pockets and for those privileged in their professions with server farms they don't actually own. I'm not stating it should be abolished entirely which is what I posted earlier. However, If I could have only two choices, to keep it as is or abolish it entirely, I would choose the latter course providing a third more mediatory solution cannot be found.
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I agree with APOLLO that the current point system is getting out of hand. The shift from CPU to GPU folding led to some grumbling, but that was basically a brand new technology created by the graphics card makers, so nobody can blame Pande Group for taking advantage of it. Similarly, it was nice that they make a client for the PS3 (which finally made me try F@H).
The current shift to bigadv is different. It's not just the bonus system, it's also the minimum 8-thread requirement and the short deadlines. All of those are created by PG, and by doing so they've specifically excluded a lot of hardware. Most of the excluded hardware can still run SMP and get a bonus, but the bigadv points are so out of whack now that my SR-2 can get double the points running some bigadv WUs compared to normal SMP. (I even dislike P2685 because it costs me almost 10K PPD.) Also, my SR-2 by itself puts out more PPD than all three of my GPU boxen combined, so bigadv is even deprecating last year's top hardware.
I really think that if all bigadv WUs had points like the dreaded P2684, this wouldn't be such an issue. People with high-end hardware would still run bigadv for the slight point advantage, and everyone else would run standard SMP and be happy. As CPUs continue to get faster and add cores, though, the problems with the bonus system are just going to grow.
The current shift to bigadv is different. It's not just the bonus system, it's also the minimum 8-thread requirement and the short deadlines. All of those are created by PG, and by doing so they've specifically excluded a lot of hardware. Most of the excluded hardware can still run SMP and get a bonus, but the bigadv points are so out of whack now that my SR-2 can get double the points running some bigadv WUs compared to normal SMP. (I even dislike P2685 because it costs me almost 10K PPD.) Also, my SR-2 by itself puts out more PPD than all three of my GPU boxen combined, so bigadv is even deprecating last year's top hardware.
I really think that if all bigadv WUs had points like the dreaded P2684, this wouldn't be such an issue. People with high-end hardware would still run bigadv for the slight point advantage, and everyone else would run standard SMP and be happy. As CPUs continue to get faster and add cores, though, the problems with the bonus system are just going to grow.
gwarren007
Fully [H]
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I have a couple of borgs running the classic clients (with permission).
Consider it yours buddy
Hit me up when you get back in town. I live halfway between Manchester and Portsmouth off hwy 101
ThreeDee
[H]F Junkie
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..any point in putting in your passkey for these "classic" clients?
I don't. There shouldn't be a need to, but I'll let Tobit confirm.
My dual PIII machine is not looking good. The HDD made some noises I never heard before, then stopped. The bigger problem is that I gave away all of my IDE HDDs, so I don't think that one is going to happen.
ThreeDee
[H]F Junkie
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lol ..darn .. you want me to send you one back?
It'd be nice to get a bonus or something for running these .. and make it retro active .. then FLECOM would have a billion more points added to his total ..
lol...I forgot it was you I sent them to...
I am sure it is a horrible folder anyway, and it is in a 1U case with 5 40mm high-flow fans. If you think the 7K RPM 60mm Deltas are loud, you should listen to this thing...let's just say I am not very upset that it doesn't work...You pay shipping and I can send you a couple spares. Free pickup if you're near NH/Boston
itsrickjames
Limp Gawd
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- Aug 11, 2010
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- 162
I have some spares to in FL if you need one to get going.
sirmonkey1985
[H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010
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meisterbrau
Limp Gawd
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- Oct 18, 2005
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i just added back in one core of my son's AMD X2 3800+ machine. It was having some heat problems last year - that's why I retired it from folding, but I figure it can handle folding on one of its cores.
I picked up this rig from Mtnduey yesterday and I put Linux on it today. It has an Athlon XP 2700+ with 1.5GB of memory. It is now folding at a whopping 104.5 PPD.
I am now running a total of five classic clients.Last year my dual Athlon MP @2.2GHz was producing 400-500 PPD depending on WU. That's about 200 PPD or more per processor. Unless the WUs changed significantly in value from last year (protomol?), you might see a bit better PPD.I picked up this rig from Mtnduey yesterday and I put Linux on it today. It has an Athlon XP 2700+ with 1.5GB of memory. It is now folding at a whopping 104.5 PPD.
I haven't seen any ProtoMol units in a long time, I would like to get some. On all of my classic clients, I've been getting mostly very chewy GROMACS-78 WUs and some A4's (but I can't talk about the A4's yet so shhhh
). I was hoping for a bit more PPD but glad it's doing at lesat 100 PPD on this chewy WU. Anything less than 100 PPD and I just don't fold on the box.
Code:
Project ID: 6501
Min. Time / Frame : 00:16:56 - 104.6 PPD
Avg. Time / Frame : 00:16:57 - 104.5 PPD
Cur. Time / Frame : 00:16:57 - 104.5 PPDWhat happened to the Protomol WUs? They were released only at the beginning of the year.I haven't seen any ProtoMol units in a long time, I would like to get some. On all of my classic clients, I've been getting mostly very chewy GROMACS-78 WUs and some A4's (but I can't talk about the A4's yet so shhhh
I was getting decent production because I had set the client to receive the 'bonus' Amber units that were available then. I guess they have been discontinued...?
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Nothing, there are a bunch of them listed on psummary right now. It's just that the servers feeding these GROMACS-78 WUs are weighted higher right now. Yeah, I miss the bonus AMBERS.
Actually, come to think of it, the best PPD I ever saw with the classic WUs came from some of the GROMACS, I think. Do you remember the series that began with the digits P35xx or something to that effect? They were big but productive and I liked them a lot. They were also quite stable compared to some of the Ambers.Yeah, I miss the bonus AMBERS.
*shrug* They obviously see a need for them as they are still developing new WUs for single cores and even have an entirely new core under development.
I recall Vijay or someone else saying that uniprocessor WUs fold best on single cores. There's just some work that can't or cannot easily be ported to SMP. Don't know if that's still the case..
folding_rejects
n00b
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- Sep 14, 2010
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- 53
Did one protomol earlier today/yesterday (gmt+1),I run an occasional classic client and this one poped right in,run it with -oneunit though,and only occasionally.
Run -smp 4 now,that has to finish but after that I may run the classic again,the difference wasn´t all that between running -smp 3+two gpu´s+classic,or -smp 4+2 gpu´s,so why not,right ? (it is a Q8400 btw)
Run -smp 4 now,that has to finish but after that I may run the classic again,the difference wasn´t all that between running -smp 3+two gpu´s+classic,or -smp 4+2 gpu´s,so why not,right ?
(it is a Q8400 btw)Core2 architecture is a bit weird with the SMP client, especially A3. In most cases I will get better performance running one core dedicated to the GPU clients and the rest for the SMP client. Whenever I include all cores for the SMP client whilst running concurrent GPU clients, SMP performance plummets. Therefore, I'm not that surprised you didn't see a big difference between -smp 3 and -smp 4 on this architecture. Nehalem and AMD systems may be different.
I may actually throw the classic client on my machine at work (already got the ok from the higher ups) since its on all the time anyways, but we will see. I have no problems keeping my 2 machines running 24/7, but with the release of the A4 cores, a bit more ppd would be nice. If not no biggie, I will keep them running regardless.
folding_rejects
n00b
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- Sep 14, 2010
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Ah,usually running amd(be940 and 1090T),there it matters.
Thanks for the tip,reinforced my belief in that I actually does the swith
See if there is any more protomol left