Thoughts on HTPC Build

[[H]utch]

Hi
I am currently building a gaming/HTPC computer and was wondering what your thoughts on the following build are:

Case: Thermaltake DH101 VF7001BNS
Motherboard: EVGA nForce 780i SLI 775 A1 Version 132-CK-NF78-A1
Video Card: EVGA e-GeForce 9600 GT SSC 512MB 512-P3-N867-AR x2
CPU: Intel Q6600
RAM: OCZ Flex XLC DDR2 PC2-9600 2GB 2X1GB DDR2-1200 CL5-5-5-18 x2
Sound Card: Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-FI Xtremegamer FATAL1TY
Optical Drive: LG GGC-H20L

I have a few concerns about the space within the Thermaltake case for fitting all the components for adequate cooling. I am considering watercooling it, but again, I am not sure if space will permit, so if anyone is using this case currently, your comments would be greatly appreciated. If anyone has any watercooling suggestions, I'm all ears.

Also, has anyone used that LG Blu-Ray drive? Any suggestions on a better Blu-Ray DVD+-RW drive?

Also, I chose to go with 2 EVGA 9600s in SLI, are 8800 GTS still better than the 9600s?

This case will be used on both my Sharp Aquos LC32D62U, via dvi->hdmi, for media (movies, audio, etc.) and my Dell 2407WFP, via dvi, for gaming.

Any other suggestions or comments are much appreciated!

 

[valve1138]

Looks like a solid build.

What are you doing for storage?

 

[Dan_D]

My thoughts are simple: You should have ditched the 780i SLI board and gone with an Intel P35 or X38 board. The 780i SLI chipset runs entirely too hot and is poorly cooled. There is also every indication that they are just as unreliable as the 680i SLI boards were/are. You should also have gone with a single video card solution. Mid-range SLI is a waste of time and money. You will always be served better by a single higher end video card solution.

 

[[H]utch]

Looks like a solid build.

What are you doing for storage?

Already have a 74gb 10k raptor for OS and 2x500g for storage.

 

[[H]utch]

My thoughts are simple: You should have ditched the 780i SLI board and gone with an Intel P35 or X38 board. The 780i SLI chipset runs entirely too hot and is poorly cooled. There is also every indication that they are just as unreliable as the 680i SLI boards were/are. You should also have gone with a single video card solution. Mid-range SLI is a waste of time and money. You will always be served better by a single higher end video card solution.

I was considering a board other than the 780i for that purpose, but didn't have any in mind off the top of my head. Any specific recommendations?

I totally agree with your sentiment on the video card. However, I thought 9600s > 8800 GT/GTs and Ultras are almost 3.5x the price of the 9600s and thought SLIed 9600 would give slightly less performance at a reasonable price. Do you suggest going straight for 8800 Ultra then? Any card recommendation?

Thanks for your input

 

[Dan_D]

I was considering a board other than the 780i for that purpose, but didn't have any in mind off the top of my head. Any specific recommendations?

I totally agree with your sentiment on the video card. However, I thought 9600s > 8800 GT/GTs and Ultras are almost 3.5x the price of the 9600s and thought SLIed 9600 would give slightly less performance at a reasonable price. Do you suggest going straight for 8800 Ultra then? Any card recommendation?

Thanks for your input

Ummm, the 9600GT is very close to the performance of the 8800GT. The GTX and Ultra perform quite a bit better but they are at least double the price of the 9600GT. Once you buy two 9600GT's you'll be over the price of a single 8800GTX which would perform better. You also have to consider the noise. You don't want to have to drown out the sound of whooshing air and the pitch of fans while watching TV or movies. I'm actually looking for a card for my HTPC. I've got an old 8800GTS 320MB card in there now. It is too freaking loud. I'd also like something that performs better than the 320MB card does at 1920x1080 as I also want the option to play games on that system.

As for the motherboard I can provide several recommendations, but I have some questions about what your goals are. What is your budget? Do you need or desire RAID functionality? Do you plan on overclocking the system? In any case I'd probably recommend something with a P35 chipset. In which case I'd probably recommend the P5K series of boards or if you aren't overclocking, Intel's DP35DP is a damned good board and that's what I'm using in my HTPC.

 

[Vader]

The way I see it, if you want to play games at a decent resolution in an HTPC, you're going to need to go to some after market cooling....HTPC' s and high res gaming do not mix as far as noise level and heat at the moment.

 

[Dan_D]

The way I see it, if you want to play games at a decent resolution in an HTPC, you're going to need to go to some after market cooling....HTPC' s and high res gaming do not mix as far as noise level and heat at the moment.

I've noticed that.

 

[ShagnWagn]

The way I see it, if you want to play games at a decent resolution in an HTPC, you're going to need to go to some after market cooling....HTPC' s and high res gaming do not mix as far as noise level and heat at the moment.

Eh? I have an 8800GT and it works great for HTPC resolution, and I can't hear it running. I suppose if I played with the case open and sitting on top of my head I could hear it...

 

[[H]utch]

Ummm, the 9600GT is very close to the performance of the 8800GT. The GTX and Ultra perform quite a bit better but they are at least double the price of the 9600GT. Once you buy two 9600GT's you'll be over the price of a single 8800GTX which would perform better. You also have to consider the noise. You don't want to have to drown out the sound of whooshing air and the pitch of fans while watching TV or movies. I'm actually looking for a card for my HTPC. I've got an old 8800GTS 320MB card in there now. It is too freaking loud. I'd also like something that performs better than the 320MB card does at 1920x1080 as I also want the option to play games on that system.

As for the motherboard I can provide several recommendations, but I have some questions about what your goals are. What is your budget? Do you need or desire RAID functionality? Do you plan on overclocking the system? In any case I'd probably recommend something with a P35 chipset. In which case I'd probably recommend the P5K series of boards or if you aren't overclocking, Intel's DP35DP is a damned good board and that's what I'm using in my HTPC.

Thanks for the info on the video cards, much appreciated.

Budget really isn't too big of an issue, although wouldn't really want to go over ~250-275 for the motherboard. Onboard raid would be desirable as I will run storage in raid, although i may set up an old machine to act as a server with the media on there and then just patch it through cat 6 cable. No real plans on overclocking the system unless i watercool it, where I live, even the best aircooling will still run too hot for o/cing. I intend to do a lot of gaming (although i will do that mostly on the 2407, 1920*1200) and then just using the Aquos for movies, music etc. I will connect the audio to an amp and then out to a 5.1 system, so I think the best way for that is analog out.

 

[[H]utch]

Considering these two motherboards instead now:
ASUS P5E LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX
GIGABYTE GA-EX38-DS4 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX

Any comments?

 

[Vader]

I use an X38 from Asus in my Gaming PC along with a q6600 humming along @3.6GHz. This is one of my favorite boards of all time, Asus Maximus Formula SE. Now..as far as HTPC use..I dont see why not..heck Alienware uses it in there new Media Server...but I think you'll be happy with any X38 board...i'm just an Asus man myself...

 

[Dan_D]

Considering these two motherboards instead now:
ASUS P5E LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX
GIGABYTE GA-EX38-DS4 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX

Any comments?

Between the two manufacturers I generally prefer ASUS. However Gigabyte is a solid choice.

 

[[H]utch]

Any idea on how this will all fit in the case im suggestins, and possibly any space for water cooling?

 

[Dan_D]

Any idea on how this will all fit in the case im suggestins, and possibly any space for water cooling?

I don't know anything about that case. It looks big enough to fit a full sized board, but I can't be sure without knowing what it looks like inside. As for water cooling it internally, good luck with that. It is probably possible but it would be extremely difficult to do given the lack of space in that type of case.

 

[echn111]

I was considering a board other than the 780i for that purpose, but didn't have any in mind off the top of my head. Any specific recommendations?

I totally agree with your sentiment on the video card. However, I thought 9600s > 8800 GT/GTs and Ultras are almost 3.5x the price of the 9600s and thought SLIed 9600 would give slightly less performance at a reasonable price. Do you suggest going straight for 8800 Ultra then? Any card recommendation?

Thanks for your input

If I were trying to build a gaming machine within an HTPC case with limited airflow, I'd consider the cooler running 8800 GTS 512 (G92) with the double slot cooler (or better). I'd avoid any G80 cards especially the Ultra. I'd also avoid single slot cooler cards. You have more options if you have more airflow or you consider 3rd party GPU cooling solutions, but the 8800 GTS 512 is a decent card. Of course, you need to do your research to ensure these cards actually fit your preferred case...

 

[Dan_D]

If I were trying to build a gaming machine within an HTPC case with limited airflow, I'd consider the cooler running 8800 GTS 512 (G92) with the double slot cooler (or better). I'd avoid any G80 cards especially the Ultra. I'd also avoid single slot cooler cards. You have more options if you have more airflow or you consider 3rd party GPU cooling solutions, but the 8800 GTS 512 is a decent card. Of course, you need to do your research to ensure these cards actually fit your preferred case...

Actually my 8800GTS 320MB isn't too bad inside my HTPC. Fairly quiet and it doesn't run all that hot. (Compared to how it runs in any other case.)

 

[SirKronan]

I've got an old 8800GTS 320MB card in there now. It is too freaking loud. I'd also like something that performs better than the 320MB card does at 1920x1080 as I also want the option to play games on that system.

Actually my 8800GTS 320MB isn't too bad inside my HTPC. Fairly quiet and it doesn't run all that hot. (Compared to how it runs in any other case.)

Is it too freaking loud or fairly quiet?

I can always count on you, Dan, to scare away anyone from an nVidia chipset. From what I've read though, the EVGA has, for the most part, favorable reviews. And two 9600GT's which can be had for around $320 for the pair actually scale relatively well and provide decent performance. Nevertheless, I know of your bad experiences with those 680i's. You killed what, eleven of them?

If your main concern is the home theater aspect of it, and only will be doing moderate gaming, a single card will be fine. If that's the way you go, you really don't need an nVidia chipset. X38's are great, (and some actually support crossfire, anyways.) But if you want to be able to run all your games maxxed at that resolution on your hd tv, you might consider a dual card solution. Both ATI and nVidia are getting better scaling with improved hardware and drivers these days, and there are simple mods you can do to that 780i board to make it run very very cool.

 

[[H]utch]

Should I wait for the DFI X48? Is that going to support SLi or only Crossfire?

 

[SirKronan]

Should I wait for the DFI X48? Is that going to support SLi or only Crossfire?

From what I've read, only crossfire. nVidia really really really really wants to push you into buying one of their chipsets, hoping because you love their superior graphics cards that you'll assume their boards are the way to go as well. I have been extremely happy with my 680i board, and I'm planning on getting a second 680i, then later stepping up to a 780i, but that's just me. Dan_D has had horrible luck with his 680i's. I have to honestly say, as much as I respect you dan, something is really fishy or weird when you fry 11 out of 12 of a certain type of board. There has to be something you're doing, or something in your environment, or something unaccounted for that's causing those failures. I haven't read nor heard of anyone ever having that many successive total failures of boards. Don't forget, I still esteem you greatly, and know you have quite a bit of experience with motherboards, much more than me, but I still think that something must be up for anyone to fry that many boards of different brands, but of the same type. I know of too many other people, including one of my best friends that are in their second year with decent overclocks and not a single failed 680i board yet. My friend has his Q6700 running at 3.65GHz, and it's a quad core! He's upgrading to the 780i now, and I'm buying his 680i so i can push my system even farther. He's had zero problems with it.

But I have to agree with you, Dan, that how many people really are going to use SLI??? I told myself I would, but I haven't yet, and more and more I'm thinking I never will. Why the crap will I need SLI with a 22" monitor???

Now, Hutch, if you're going to want to play games at 1920x1080 maxxed on your HDTV you might perhaps need to consider a dual GPU solution, like I mentioned above, but if your main priority is the hi def playback, and you just want games to look decent and play smooth, a single card will be quieter, cooler, and just fine and sufficient for you, and you can get a good P35 board for HALF the price of a new 780i.

What's your priority here, maxxed games at 1920x1080, or an efficient, quiet, but powerful home theater PC???

 

[[H]utch]

Thanks Kronan.

Games are just as important as having just the HTPC.

Going to want to play games maxxed at 1920*1080 (tv) or 1920*1200 (pc). Still trying to decide whether to go X38 with one high end 8800GTX/Ultra or a SLi with two midrange 8800GTS.

 

[[H]utch]

Considering either SLi one of the two following video cards:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3484817&CatId=2514
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3514991&CatId=1826

with this motherboard:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3523225&CatId=3495

Or single card the following:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2597917&CatId=2513

with this motherboard:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3505300&CatId=3488

I think I will be going with the Q6600 and for RAM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231065 for either board.

 

[SirKronan]

Thanks Kronan.

Games are just as important as having just the HTPC.

Going to want to play games maxxed at 1920*1080 (tv) or 1920*1200 (pc). Still trying to decide whether to go X38 with one high end 8800GTX/Ultra or a SLi with two midrange 8800GTS.

Depends on what you're gonna play, really. Games like COD4 and BF2142 are known to scale extremely well in SLI, along with many others, but some games don't seem to scale much at all. There are fewer and fewer games that see no benefit nowadays, however. I'm going the route of 780i, and I purchased an 8800GTS, EVGA brand, from Newegg. Now I have the option to step up to the 9800GTX/9800GT. The 9600 is actually an excellent card for the money, and two of those in SLI will set you back a cool $320, but in many games that setup will actually outperform a single GTS 512 or even a GTX ... for $320!!! And at idle the two cards will actually use less power than the single GTX. The new generations might not be way more powerful than current 8800 series cards, but they are hella efficient!! If you get the 8800GT or GTS made by EVGA (the GT can be had for $200 now after rebates!!) and then step up to the 9800GT/GTX when the time comes, if it's warranted. I really think you'll see a benefit with SLI at those high resolutions. Almost all games have a noticeable benefit in SLI at those high resolutions, especially with max detail and AA.

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?Itemid=40&id=4059&option=com_content&task=view

Look what happens at higher resolutions!!

Two more benchmarks:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/245760-33-8800gt-performance-scaling-review

Here's another good article, for the most part:

http://guru3d.com/article/Videocards/468/1

They reported some crashes and instability problems in some games when running SLI, but one of the cards had a broken resistor!!! The results are still impressive. Noticeable gains are had with the two cards in SLI. FYI, I couldn't get the graphs on the above link to work in Firefox, but they worked fine in IE 7.0. Same goes for link below:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/504/1

In most titles tested the two 9600's in SLI beat the new 3870X2 from ATI!!! This is amazing!! That's why ATI had to lower prices on the 3870's when the 9600GT came out. And the 9600GT is reported to do very well and have fine stability in SLI configurations. Plus, the 9600GT is a very cool and efficient card, using very little power at idle, or with a lower load, like say watching HD movies. You could keep the fans at 30% for watching movies and you would hear nothing, even with two cards installed. And when you can get a single 9600GT in the $160 it makes SLI a lot more tempting. At high resolutions the benefit is outstanding, as much as 30-40 fps more than without SLI. The 8800GT in sli is even faster, but at 16x10 and above the gains are significant in SLI in most games now, because drivers and hardware have matured substantially. Just remember though, if you get an X38 board you can go with the 8800GT/GTS now, from EVGA, then step up to the 9800GX2, which does SLI within the card. That beast will benefit from PCI-E 2.0, so make sure the board you get supports it. But the new 9800GX2 will have HDMI out for your TV, and it looks as if some manufacturers will build in optical inputs so the audio is supported as well. Plus, it's reported to perform 30% faster than a single ultra and shatter the 3870X2, all around the $500 price point, if rumor holds true. You will be able to do an easy stepup if you get EVGA now, so the ball's totally in your court, just up to you how you handle it.

If you wanna wait a couple of days, I have a friend who is installing his 780i rig as we speak. He just got his new EVGA 780i mobo last night, and today and tomorrow he's working on getting his system switched over to it. He has the 8800 Ultra, and Corsair memory he likes to overclock, plus he's running Vista 64-bit. I'll let you know as soon as I go what kind of stability, temps, and overclocks he gets with his new board. If there's anything else we should know or any other aspect, like budget, etc. that you haven't filled us in on, yet please let us know.

 

[SirKronan]

Considering either SLi one of the two following video cards:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3484817&CatId=2514
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3514991&CatId=1826

with this motherboard:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3523225&CatId=3495

Or single card the following:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2597917&CatId=2513

with this motherboard:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3505300&CatId=3488

I think I will be going with the Q6600 and for RAM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231065 for either board.

Holy flip that's a tough choice. Because of the problems that Dan and others have had with 680i's I've considered selling my 780i as brand new as soon as I get it and going with a single card configuration and an X38 board. It's hard though, because I haven't had any problems at all with my system, as you can see from my sig, which I use for 24/7 operations with no problems, BSOD's or lockups at all! I'm only using a 22" monitor at 16x10, though. You will see an even bigger benefit from SLI with a 1080p HDTV. And the drivers are getting better and better at handling it! What to do, what to do....

 

[SirKronan]

That's a good deal on the GTS 512 with Crysis included, but DON'T get the 640mb GTS superclocked. I have the GTS 512 and with factory cooling I hit 15k+ in 3dMark06. That's an amazing card that you'll easily be able to overclock beyond what the 640mb GTS will do. Plus it has improved cooling.

Newegg has it better though:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130312

Can you get newegg, or are you in Canada?

This is the card I have:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130325

I didn't want to pay the extra $$ for Crysis. It was 50 or 60 bucks difference at the time I bought my card, but on the Egg, it's only $30 more to get crysis. That's not bad!

 

[[H]utch]

Thanks for the info Kronan, greatly appreciated.
I believe the 9800GX2 is supposed to come out shortly, any idea when?

It looks like the best option now is eVGA 780SLi + 2GT/GTs. I think that's what I'll go with.

Now the only question that remains is if all of that will fit in a Thermaltake HD101 with watercooling.

 

[[H]utch]

That's a good deal on the GTS 512 with Crysis included, but DON'T get the 640mb GTS superclocked. I have the GTS 512 and with factory cooling I hit 15k+ in 3dMark06. That's an amazing card that you'll easily be able to overclock beyond what the 640mb GTS will do. Plus it has improved cooling.

Newegg has it better though:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130312

Can you get newegg, or are you in Canada?

This is the card I have:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130325

I didn't want to pay the extra $$ for Crysis. It was 50 or 60 bucks difference at the time I bought my card, but on the Egg, it's only $30 more to get crysis. That's not bad!

I'm in neither Canada nor the US but going to the US soon and will buy these while I'm there and know of a physical TigerDirect location.

 

[SirKronan]

I'm in neither Canada nor the US but going to the US soon and will buy these while I'm there and know of a physical TigerDirect location.

oh, but you'll save so much with Newegg, and they are fantastic!! Don't forget to order an aftermarket 60x60x10 or x25 mm fan for the northbridge heatsink. It will push twice as much air as the stock one, and likely be quieter.

I ordered this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999615

It's a bit on the thick side at 25mm, and I haven't tested it yet. If you want a thinner one try this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835168002

It has higher CFM but it's probably a little noisier. But remember that the 680i/780i boards have fantastic fan control. You'll be able to regulate its speed according to the temps, which means when you're watching videos, it'll have low temps so you can set it at 30%. When it gets hot, you can have it set to 60-80% to compensate. That's what I do with my fans on my 680i and it works great. Most of the time all you hear is the faint flow of air through my case, no fan noise. It's very very quiet. Only at full load do things spin a little faster.

 

[[H]utch]

I know I'll save a lot with Newegg, but I think they only accept US credit cards, though I speak under correction.

Yea, I will be getting a better NB fan. Thanks for the heads up again though.

Still gotta figure out how to fit it all in the Thermaltake HD101

 

[chrisf6969]

74Gb raptor is going to be loud, you might want to get an HD Silencer for it.

 

[SirKronan]

74Gb raptor is going to be loud, you might want to get an HD Silencer for it.

Yeah. There are other drives that are pretty speedy nowadays that might make a quieter home theater PC but still be fast enough for gaming, etc. Western digital is making some really nice, quiet drives these days. I would look them up. let me know if you would like some links to some examples.

The Raptor is aging, anyways. It's in definite need of a makeover in order to stay competitive. Seagate has a couple of 1 terabyte hard drives that actually outperform the raptor in almost every benchmark, except seek time, where the 10k rpm helps out substantially. And the raptors are indeed a little noisier and a lot hotter than your average drive. Just a few thoughts...

 

[Dan_D]

Is it too freaking loud or fairly quiet?

I can always count on you, Dan, to scare away anyone from an nVidia chipset. From what I've read though, the EVGA has, for the most part, favorable reviews. And two 9600GT's which can be had for around $320 for the pair actually scale relatively well and provide decent performance. Nevertheless, I know of your bad experiences with those 680i's. You killed what, eleven of them?

Actually I was mistaken about the 8800GTS 320MB being too loud. It wasn't the video card fan that was the problem but rather the case fans in front of it. Those fans were tied directly into the PSU directly and not the motherboard fan headers. So there was no thermal control on them. I ended up installing a fan speed controller to control those two front case fans and now the machine is pretty close to silent. You have to put your head right next to it to hear anything. So really the problem was that I assumed that the video card was the source of the noice because I spend much time gaming on my main rig and in that machine I hear the video card fans above the other noises the system makes. I thought it was the same thing in the case of my HTPC. Really though while idling and performing regular tasks the 8800GTS 320MB is very quiet. Just as quiet as the 8600GT I had floating around that I test in the HTPC was. I simply came to the wrong conclusion and then after more testing I found the real problem then solved it.

As for my experiences with the 680i SLI chipset based boards you are correct. I have had eleven of them fail on me. In the last 10 years I have had a couple DOA boards and only 1 or 2 failures that I can remember in that time. Yet in the last year and a half I've had 11 out of 12 motherboard failures? Something isn't right about that. Of course I had problems just like those experienced by a ton of 680i SLI chipset board owners have but the real problems started when I upgraded to a quad core processor. It's not like I'm using shitty hardware or anything in these systems. They just don't seem to last very long with quad core processors. I'm not the only one having problems with them or to make that observation. Another thing you don't seem to understand is that when you first pull these NVIDIA chipset based boards out of the box and start to work with them the reference boards are all fine unless you get a DOA board. The problem with them is that they don't last very long in many cases. Fuck the favorable reviews. Reviews can only tell you so much about a board. They can't predict longevity of a given product with a degree of accuracy. Now in regard to the 780i SLI boards Kyle made observations about the reference 780i SLI boards having 6-phase power and traditional capacitors instead of the solid-state caps that most high end boards use now. I've looked at and worked with the 780i SLI boards myself and guess what. They use the same shitty power setup and voltage components that the 680i SLI boards do. Beyond that there are storage related issues and PCI-Express card compatibility issues with the NVIDIA reference boards. If it sounds like I'm trying to scare people off from those things then so be it but the facts back up my statements concerning those boards. Intel chipset based boards are simply superior. In most ways they have superior performance and comparable features. The only thing the 680i/780i SLI boards are good for is SLI support. Even then I've suggested on many occasions that non-reference boards were the way to go. Even those aren't problem free but from a reliability standpoint they are absolutely the way to go if you have to go SLI at all.

As for the video cards well all I can say is single card > SLI any day of the week. SLI isn't worth it in the mainstream or medium range cards and I think many people can agree with that. Why buy two cards for the same price as one higher end card and have to put up with an SLI compatible motherboard? Doesn't make sense. Don't get me wrong because I like SLI and Crossfire. Hell my own machine has SLI running in it. Two out of three of my desktops used NVIDIA chipset based boards. With that said, SLI just isn't cost effective or worth the hassle unless you are doing it with a pair of high end graphics cards in conjunction with a 30" monitor. I don't know why anyone would continue to debate this.

 

[Vader]

I'm definately going to back Dan_D on this. I've had 4 680i boards and every single one either had issues with memory, BSOD's..etc. I gave up and went with an x38 board and couldn't be happier and the 9800x2's are around the corner..who needs an SLI board.

Nvidia is going to have to create a motherboard in solid gold and guarantee 100%stability for me to ever go back using their chipsets.

 

[SirKronan]

I haven't had any compatibility, ram, or PCI-E or storage problems yet, but the one thing that makes me mad about the 680i/780i chipset vs. intel chipsets is the serious v.droop issues when overclocking quads. My friend is working on his as we speak. His new 780i pushed his Q6700 up to 3.75GHz, which is respectable, but when he pushes it higher, say 1.6v - it drops to 1.5 often, losing any possible stability at load. They've had forever to fix this, and I know of no one, minus those who have soldered v.mods directly on the board, who haven't had v.droop issues with quads when they try serious overclocking. That's why with a 22" monitor, I'm almost convinced o sell the brand new 780i when I get it via stepup, and go with an intel chipset. All my other stuff will work, and besides, with the 9800GX2 that gives you SLI within pretty much any mobo....

 

[Dan_D]

I haven't had any compatibility, ram, or PCI-E or storage problems yet, but the one thing that makes me mad about the 680i/780i chipset vs. intel chipsets is the serious v.droop issues when overclocking quads. My friend is working on his as we speak. His new 780i pushed his Q6700 up to 3.75GHz, which is respectable, but when he pushes it higher, say 1.6v - it drops to 1.5 often, losing any possible stability at load. They've had forever to fix this, and I know of no one, minus those who have soldered v.mods directly on the board, who haven't had v.droop issues with quads when they try serious overclocking. That's why with a 22" monitor, I'm almost convinced o sell the brand new 780i when I get it via stepup, and go with an intel chipset. All my other stuff will work, and besides, with the 9800GX2 that gives you SLI within pretty much any mobo....

He should stop before he melts the board. 3.75GHz is VERY respectable for a Q6700. I wouldn't expect it to go much if any beyond that on any board.

 

[SirKronan]

He should stop before he melts the board. 3.75GHz is VERY respectable for a Q6700.

Arg, he was only at FSB 1500... The 780i should do that or it's a joke!! He says it tests out fine, and temps are very good, n/b, s/b, and MCP are all quite good. He did the heat pipe mod where you cut off some of the stupid foam so the metal heatsinks on the pipes have better contact with the chips, thus cooling better. He also replaced the factory n/b fan with an aftermarket 60x60x10mm fan, which also helps because it pushes literally twice as much air as the stock one. As far as melting the board... EVGA's lifetime warranty should have him covered there. The ESA is going to be pretty cool. I'm looking at a waterblock that has that. It'll tie right into my motherboard if I get the 780i and let me monitor/control everything. Are any intel boards getting ESA or anything like that?

My friend also thinks he might be able to hit 4.0GHz when he upgrades to penryn because the 45nm will require less volts, but I told him to do that he'd have to hit FSB 2000 (500x8) in order to pull that off with the processor he wants - the Q9450. It has an 8x max multi!! The Q6700 has a 10x, so in all reality, I really doubt he'll get much higher than 3.75, even with the new penryn because of that lower multi. He'd have to run that board pretty hard. What board would you recommend, dan, since I no longer need to do SLI. At least for 2-3 years, my 22" will be FINE! I can sell that 780i brand new for $200 when I get it, surely. So what would you recommend instead? Something in the $200 arena. I want it to have at least 1 firewire port and 1 additional header, or two headers. I plan on using that. e-sata is nice, but not a must. I would like to be able to hit super high FSB's though, and overclock the CRAP out of the Q6700, and maybe a penryn in the future...

This would be a good board for Hutch, too, and your HTPC. A single GTX or even GTS would play most games really well, even at 1920x1080. You'll be able to overclock the processor higher too, probably, than in the 780i.... depending on which board you get, hence I request a suggestion from Dan...

 

[Dan_D]

Arg, he was only at FSB 1500... The 780i should do that or it's a joke!! He says it tests out fine, and temps are very good, n/b, s/b, and MCP are all quite good. He did the heat pipe mod where you cut off some of the stupid foam so the metal heatsinks on the pipes have better contact with the chips, thus cooling better. He also replaced the factory n/b fan with an aftermarket 60x60x10mm fan, which also helps because it pushes literally twice as much air as the stock one. As far as melting the board... EVGA's lifetime warranty should have him covered there. The ESA is going to be pretty cool. I'm looking at a waterblock that has that. It'll tie right into my motherboard if I get the 780i and let me monitor/control everything. Are any intel boards getting ESA or anything like that?

My friend also thinks he might be able to hit 4.0GHz when he upgrades to penryn because the 45nm will require less volts, but I told him to do that he'd have to hit FSB 2000 (500x8) in order to pull that off with the processor he wants - the Q9450. It has an 8x max multi!! The Q6700 has a 10x, so in all reality, I really doubt he'll get much higher than 3.75, even with the new penryn because of that lower multi. He'd have to run that board pretty hard. What board would you recommend, dan, since I no longer need to do SLI. At least for 2-3 years, my 22" will be FINE! I can sell that 780i brand new for $200 when I get it, surely. So what would you recommend instead? Something in the $200 arena. I want it to have at least 1 firewire port and 1 additional header, or two headers. I plan on using that. e-sata is nice, but not a must. I would like to be able to hit super high FSB's though, and overclock the CRAP out of the Q6700, and maybe a penryn in the future...

This would be a good board for Hutch, too, and your HTPC. A single GTX or even GTS would play most games really well, even at 1920x1080. You'll be able to overclock the processor higher too, probably, than in the 780i.... depending on which board you get, hence I request a suggestion from Dan...

I said he should quit while he is ahead not for the boards' sake alone but for the processor as well. Not too many Q6700's are going to hit beyond 3.8GHz on any board. Also getting into 1.6v+ range is a bit dangerous for the longevity of the chip and he has to deal wihthe the extra heat as well. Not saying that some people don't get better results than that, or he couldn't possibily get better results pushing harder, but I'd be a little surprised if he did. He might just be near the max ceiling of the CPU.

As for the 780i SLI and max FSB speeds all I can say is 450MHz+ is a realistic expectation but you aren't guaranteed that much with quad core CPUs. The 65nm chips just don't overclock that well on most boards.

 

[SirKronan]

Now in regard to the 780i SLI boards Kyle made observations about the reference 780i SLI boards having 6-phase power and traditional capacitors instead of the solid-state caps that most high end boards use now. I've looked at and worked with the 780i SLI boards myself and guess what. They use the same shitty power setup and voltage components that the 680i SLI boards do. Beyond that there are storage related issues and PCI-Express card compatibility issues with the NVIDIA reference boards. If it sounds like I'm trying to scare people off from those things then so be it but the facts back up my statements concerning those boards. Intel chipset based boards are simply superior. In most ways they have superior performance and comparable features. The only thing the 680i/780i SLI boards are good for is SLI support. Even then I've suggested on many occasions that non-reference boards were the way to go. Even those aren't problem free but from a reliability standpoint they are absolutely the way to go if you have to go SLI at all.

I totally see where you're coming from on the 680i's but there are many people doing some amazing things with their 780i's right now. I wouldn't try to "scare" anyone away from the 780i without giving it a chance yourself. Take a look at this thread:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1032174674

Granted, the OP on that thread is getting some high temps at load, I'm sure, but he's only on air right now. That's amazing on a Q6600. So far my friend with his new 780i has got his Q6700 up to 3.85 stable. (I warned him not to fry his board, but he's one of those guys that likes to push his hardware to the max. I'm sure he won't run it that way 24/7)

The 780i's are really performing far better than the 680i's so far. Even though everything isn't perfect, they've at least made some improvements that are allowing for noticeable gains.

I just installed my friend's old EVGA 680i that he sold me so he could by his new 780. As you may recall my MAX overclock with the Abit IN9 32x-MAX was 3.33GHz. Vdroop was too great. Even after I fixed the PWM temp problem, I still couldn't push my processor any further. Someone suggested that it might be the processor, but reading lots and lots of 32x-max forums, and a few other branded 680i forums I tended to lean towards Vdroop as the real culprit. The processor wasn't getting enough power. I refused to believe that 3.33GHz was the limit on my nice new processor!! The temps were too good to be at its threshold. To the Abit board's credit it gave nice overclocks on RAM and had ports/headers galore (several more than the EVGA 680i ). But I was more concerned with getting the most out of my processor. Now my buddy's first 680i board was a first revision. He had trouble getting his Q6700 over 3.0GHz!!! EVGA promptly replaced it with the second revision, and he was able to achieve a 100% stable overclock of 3.65GHz on it with no issues. He could post and run Windows at 3.7, but it was hardly stable for anything else. That's the board I bought from him. I installed it last night and sold my Abit board to a friend. Today I hit 3.65GHz, Prime95 stable. My friend had better temps because his system is watercooled, but I never peaked above 68c at 100% load, even though all I have is a $21 air cooler!! I'm not going to run those temps 24/7 because I want my crap to last more than 6 months, but that's a much better overclock, and it's still the same 680i board, just a newer revision with improvements. Way less vdroop, far fewer FSB holes than both the Abit 680i and the 1st revision EVGA board, and better mofset/PWM temps. With all the problems early 680i's had, nVidia and partners just had to respond to the problem. Heck, you fried 11 680i boards. Because of trouble that people like you and others had, I really think they have worked at fixing some of the problems and improving the quality of the boards quite a bit. There are a lot fewer DOA's and much better overclocks with new 780i boards right now. The difference is substantial. My overclocks are new very impressive considering I'm only on air and still on the 680i. Everything is so stable you wouldn't believe.

As for the video cards well all I can say is single card > SLI any day of the week. SLI isn't worth it in the mainstream or medium range cards and I think many people can agree with that. Why buy two cards for the same price as one higher end card and have to put up with an SLI compatible motherboard? Doesn't make sense. Don't get me wrong because I like SLI and Crossfire. Hell my own machine has SLI running in it. Two out of three of my desktops used NVIDIA chipset based boards. With that said, SLI just isn't cost effective or worth the hassle unless you are doing it with a pair of high end graphics cards in conjunction with a 30" monitor.

I know I said I might just sell the new 780i when it comes in, but I'm once again tossing around keeping the step up 780i because I snagged a great buy on a new Dell 24" display. At its native resolution SLI offers substantial benefits on most games out there now.

I don't know why anyone would continue to debate this.

Here's WHY:

COD4, and BF games see substantial improvements, both games I play a lot, or plan to play a lot. I want them maxed on my 24", and SLI can really make that more of a possibility. Plus, with the 9600GT's (and the 8800GT's) SLI is WAY more practical and cost effective now! Look where the single cards score vs. 9600GT's (two can be had for less than $330) and 8800GT's (two of these for $400!) in SLI.

There's no reason in HELL after looking at that, Hutch, that I would recommend you get ANYTHING other than the 780i and a couple of 9600GT's in SLI for your home theater rig. The 9600GT's do HD hardware decoding well. They are efficient, quiet, cool, AND CHEAP. I've seen sales on them in the 160's. Two of those together will outperform an ULTRA on most new games, while producing less heat, decoding HD video MUCH BETTER, consuming a bit less energy at load (but a LOT less energy at idle), make about the same amount of noise, and cost HALF. Plus, you can budget one card in now, and a second later. Holy CRAP! nVidia's pushing SLI so hard that they are releasing solid drivers and stable hardware. SLI motherboards are now sufficiently mature to trust with most games. Hutch, you're on the right track. Dan_D, I will always read and study what you have to say, and I've already appreciated a great deal of your advice in the past, but I think that your current opinions on SLI might just be out of date. Look at some of those new benches. The 8800GT's and 9600GT's offer stellar performance in SLI with most of the new games, and as time goes on and nVidia and ATI continue to promote multi GPU solutions as truly viable, support is only bound to improve.

Granted, at lower resolutions the benefits aren't as great, but both Hutch and even me now, are going to be running a native resolution of 1920x1080 for him and 1920x1200 for me. The benefits of SLI are huge, as are the savings over a powerful single card like the GTX or ultra. SLI has come a long way. A friend I used to work with had me build him a system when we were working together. I threw in a 650i motherboard because it was inexpensive but would offer SLI for future upgradeability. He opted for the inexpensive but cost effective 7600GT for his graphics card - he was on a budget. I recently sold him my old 7600GT on the cheap, and I went over and helped him put it in SLI. We saw a very noticeable improvement in COD4 and other games that he plays. We both played until like two or three A.M. without a single freeze or BSOD. For little money he saw a big improvement. His 500W PSU is more than sufficient to do the job.

I bet you could even get away with a 650w PSU with two 9600GT's in SLI. They are so power efficient. Anyways, I think I've made my point. I need to update my sig anyways with the new OC results....

Credit and thanks to Firing Squad for images. Link to their review.