I have a server that I use for security and network storage. Right now I have multiple drives, a 60GB that I use for OS, a 750gb I use for my security cameras, and file storage I'm using 3x2tb drives. If I were to get this raid card here would it be fast enough to stream 1080p blu-rays to 2 HTPC's simultaneously? I would only run the 3 2tb drives on it and possibly even order a 4th since it has the ability for 4? I'm just afraid with it being PCI. The video, network etc is all on-board and I have nothing else in any of the pci slots to clog up the lane. I have a gigabit network and I'm able to stream fine right now so I won't be limited by that, but my file collection is getting large enough that I'm getting paranoid and want to make sure if a drive fails I won't lose everything on it. The motherboard in my server doesn't have any pci-e slots so I'm figuring I may need to update the MB in it but I'd much rather just buy that inexpensive sata controller if it'll do the job? I don't really know what a regular PCI controller is capable of and right now there is a 15% off coupon for that controller so I'm able to get it for just over $21 and I'm a shoprunner member so shipping will be free, the price is appealing and it sounds like it'll work but I don't want to just throw $20 away if it won't, thanks for your help
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Thinking about running RAID, will this work?
- Thread starter CorNut
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Lord Nassirbannipal
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A few things.......
-RAID is not to be used for backup. If you want to make sure that you don't lose your data in case of a drive failure then you need to do backups to removable media.
-RAID is used to either increase disk performance or to avoid downtime. Raid 5, for example, would allow you to keep everything running in case of one drive failing, but more than that and you'd have to rebuild.
You should really consider whether or RAID is going to give you any substantial benefits before you implement it. Is this a home server, or is it being used for something mission critical in which you can't really afford to have any down time?
-RAID is not to be used for backup. If you want to make sure that you don't lose your data in case of a drive failure then you need to do backups to removable media.
-RAID is used to either increase disk performance or to avoid downtime. Raid 5, for example, would allow you to keep everything running in case of one drive failing, but more than that and you'd have to rebuild.
You should really consider whether or RAID is going to give you any substantial benefits before you implement it. Is this a home server, or is it being used for something mission critical in which you can't really afford to have any down time?
just a home server, I store my TV recordings on it basically. I thought RAID was safer but I guess not, still though, it would be nice to have everything under 1 drive instead of having to search 3 of them to find what I want. What would you do? just leave it as is? I am out of SATA ports on my motherboard though so I will need to do something down the road anyway. Since eventually I will want to add more drives. Will a PCI controller card suffice or will I have to get a mb with pci-e on it? I honestly have no idea what the bandwidth of that card would be, could 2 htpc's stream off of a pci lane simultaneously (blu-ray rip)? Or is it time to upgrade my server? I'd rather not have to get a new mb and set everything back up, but if I have to I guess I really have no choice because I'll eventually fill up this last drive which only has 800gb free as we speak
the raid is not a backup, but the raid will do exactly what you want, which is combine the data into a redundant setup that resists drive failure. obviously if you delete all of your files on raid they are lost, and if you get a virus that rapes the pc you may lose it as well.
once a drive fails you have to rebuild, otherwise you'll lose everything. it's a raid6 where you can lose one and then one more and only have to rebuild still to avoid data loss.
that card isn't what you're looking for. it only has 4 ports, it can't expand, and it uses pci with the world's slowest processor. I can't imagine how long you'd have to rebuild a 6tb array with it.
find something better that has more than 4 ports, and something that people actually recommend for raid5 setups, like a card that supports expanding and such.
even with the 4 ports on it, you'd be delaying your expansion only two 2tb if you did jbod mode with no redundancy. I definitely wouldn't recommend raid5 on it, especially because raid5 would be taking up one of the ports, so you'd still only be able to use 6tb out of the 4 2tb drives the card would require.
Dangman
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That's actually up to you to decide: Do you really really want everything to appear under one drive? Or are multiple drives really not that bad for you? If you just want sheer simplicity, I wouldn't bother wishing/hoping/wanting everything to appear as one drive.
If you're not planning on running any kind of RAID array and assuming that your motherboard isn't running the onboard sound or some other device off the PCI, then yes two HD streams should be fine streaming from the PCI slot. Gonna be slow transferring files to the server but should be ok.
However if you're planning on running any kind of RAID, whether it be software or hardware RAID, you're gonna need a PCI-E slot.
What's the specs of your current file server? I especially need info on thecase, OS, and PSU.
That looks like a software RAID card. Also called fake RAID. So, if you're running anything but Windows, you'll just see the separate HDD's.
When I was running a software RAID5 with 4 2T HDD's, I never had a problem streaming to 2 computers, and copying files at the same time. Keep in mind that normally the more HDD's that you have in the array the better the performance. This was on a box running Linux. Not sure how it would have gone if it was Windows. And, I also had dual NIC's that were bonded.
I've just upgraded to a hardware RAID, so hopefully it'll be even better now. If nothing else, it'll make life a little easier if I ever have to replace the MB, or re-install.
When I was running a software RAID5 with 4 2T HDD's, I never had a problem streaming to 2 computers, and copying files at the same time. Keep in mind that normally the more HDD's that you have in the array the better the performance. This was on a box running Linux. Not sure how it would have gone if it was Windows. And, I also had dual NIC's that were bonded.
I've just upgraded to a hardware RAID, so hopefully it'll be even better now. If nothing else, it'll make life a little easier if I ever have to replace the MB, or re-install.
mb is an ECS VIA P4M800 PRO, cpu is an e6300 conroe, 2gb of pc3200 (2x1gb), this is the case it's in which has lots of bays for HD's. I don't use an optical drive, I just plug in my external dvd drive if I ever need to do anything. One of the 2tb drives is also external, it's a WD USB 2 drive. I use it because I ran out of room on the other drives and I just move stuff from my main PC's/HTPC's HD's to it since the server is out of storage but I was wanting to remove the drive from the enclosure and add it to the server and possibly even order another 2tb drive since they seem to only be $60-65 regularly. OS is Win XP x64 pro which is based off of Win Server 2003. PS I'm not 100% sure but I think it is like an Antec 280w-300w or something. I got it from a case I bought but first thing I did was take the PS out and put my own in so it sat for years unused so I just threw it in the server when I built it.
I do have my main PC I'm using now, it has an e8400 wolfdale with 4gb xms2 (2x2gb) I can maybe transfer over to server duties. This has Win 7 Pro on it, is Win7 pro a good OS for server duty? This PC's MB is a GA-P35-DS3L
I already got a new case, PS, CPU cooler, and 8gb(2x4gb) of 1866 ddr3 that's waiting for the bulldozer release so I guess I can just plan on transferring this mb/cpu/ram over to server duties in a few months and for the time being just keep using the USB drive. I'll need to buy a new copy of windows for my soon to be bulldozer I guess unless I can find that xp 64 cd in the abyss somewhere
There is that server 2011 at newegg for only $60, that would let me keep my w7 pro to put on my bulldozer when I build it. Anybody have any experience with server 2011? It doesn't seem to have very good reviews, something about missing something for hard drives or something which is totally gibberish to me. Should I give that a look or stick to windows 7? Sorry for the novel! but thanks for the replies you all have given
forgot to ask about this, was that over a PCI lane? or pci-e? I'm pretty certain I'm going to just recycle this PC however I will still need to get something to give me the ability for more HD's. Will a regular pci-e card be fine or do I want one of those 8x ones? Unlike that ECS board I'm using now this one has pci-e slots, a x16, plus 3 x1's. It also has 3 pci slots so this MB is very versatile but it does only have 4 sata ports, and I am about to add a 4th SATA drive which will occupy them all and leave me in the same situation where I won't be able to expand again. Are software raid cards really that bad? The server isn't hosting anything very critical or anything, it just records video from 8 cameras, stores the backup files for all of my pc's/laptop and my tv recordings/dvd&BluRay backups. I really need to add expand-ability more than anything. If a PCI lane can handle it I can just buy that cheap software raid card and call it a day but the 15% off sata controller coupon I have works for more than just that 1 and I'm liking the idea of converting this e8400 to server duty so I'll probably go that route and get a pci-e one. Sorry for being a noob with this stuff but because of that I need some tips on how to do it.
will this one work better? here
3ware, Adaptec, Areca, LSI and Rosewill are the brands that newegg has on sale, could you recommend one to me? the coupon code EMCKCHH33 for 15% off those brands is good through the 28th so I am wanting to use it since it is something I need to buy soon anyway, may as well get it while I have the % off. If while looking if you go that far (you dont have to, just an idea of what to look for is fine) ignore shipping charges because no matter which one I get I get free shipping since I have shoprunner
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Dangman
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Do note that Jeffblair was using Linux. Linux software RAID is significantly faster than most Windows software RAID solutions.
Any PCI-E card, whether it's PCI-E x1, x4, x8, or even x16 will be enough as long as the chip on the card itself is good.
Depends on which software RAID card you're using and what OS you're using. If the software RAID card uses a Silicon Image chipset and if you're using Windows, then yea it's pretty bad no matter what interface you use. Pretty much the one thing you want to take from all this is to avoid cards using Silicon Image chipsets through any interface if you want to use Windows.
Again, gonna repeat this again: "If you're not planning on running any kind of RAID array and assuming that your motherboard isn't running the onboard sound or some other device off the PCI, then yes two HD streams should be fine streaming from the PCI slot. Gonna be slow transferring files to the server but should be ok."
Problem with that plan: Do you have a PCI or PCI-E x1 video card available? Some mobos do not POST without a video card installed. That GA-P35-DS3L only has one PCI-E x16 slot which is needed by a RAID or HBA card.
No. Still uses a Silicon Image chip.
Well drop Rosewill from consideration since the vast majority of their cards uses Silicon image chips. So definitely out. Now as for us recommending a card to you, you have not provided enough information:
- Max Budget?
- Number of hard drive connections?
- What OS are you planning on using?
- Did you still want to use RAID or will regular JBOD be fine?
- Regarding both the ECS and Gigabyte mobo: Will the PCi-E x16 slot be free?
1) Well I guess I would spend up to $100ish but I would up it if I had to, I'd prefer less though
2) I have 2 2TB drives already plugged in, a Hitachi and a Samsung, both low rpm ones, and I have an additional HP external 2tb drive that I will be removing from its enclosure that I assume is 5400rpm (got it on sale @ staples for $45 after coupon & rebate so with that savings I'm ok writing off the warranty) and I will be adding another since the USB one is running out of room anyway. I'm sure those 4 drives will be all I put in it and I'll replace my IDE drives with this PC's old drive (got myself a new 96gb SSD and all storage is on the server so I don't need a large one in my pc) as the security camera one and I have a 75gb sata drive unused I will use for the OS. Those 2 though I will just use the MB's on-board sata ports. Also since the MB I will be using has 4 on-board vs 2 like the ECS I'm currently using that will leave 2 ports open for future in case I need more storage, hope that all makes sense
3) I have the XP x64 Pro (Server 2003 based) OS I currently use but I moved and not 100% sure where that CD is and not really sure if I care to look for it anyway since that OS is pretty old already. If transferring this system to do the server I can just use the Win7 Pro already installed since pro allows remote access or I can buy that Windows Server 2011 that sells for $60 @ Newegg, what do you think about that? Being server I assume it allows remote access plus it has a feature that automatically does the back-ups for the PC's on the network so I don't have to manually do them every few weeks but I heard something bad about it with something to do with hard drives but not sure exactly what that means. I'm also unsure if that Server 2011 would support my security stuff, it doesn't have Server 2011 listed as a supported OS but it does work with Win7, think it should work? not 100% sure on the model # but I know it is Q-See brand. I don't mind buying another copy of Win7, I'll just get home premium, the pro version doesn't really do anything for me on my primary PC. I know there is lots of linux alternatives that are free but when I had a server running the debian kernel in the past I always got confused and had to call my friend for help, I just don't have the brains I guess and I am one of the dummies that contribute to gates' billions
4) Either way would be fine I'm sure, I can just set my Media Browser plugin for Media Center to look at multiple drives as I already do, it's not that big of deal. I think it'd be neat to have a raid just so I could be one of the "cool kids"
but it isn't necessary if you don't think it's worth it? If it is worth it but would require me to drop $200 on a controller card I'd probably do it but if it isn't going to really do anything since I'll be limited to a pci-e 1x slot since I'll need to put a vid card in my x16 slot I'd just go the cheaper route. I know it is a decision I should ultimately make but since I don't really know anything about this stuff I'm all for following your guys' lead5) when I scrolled up to read #5 I realized I answered that in answer #4
*edit* would buying a pci-e 1x video card be a worthwhile thing to buy?
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Dangman
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Lemme rephrase that: Do you need a card with support for 4 drives or 8 drives?
Try out WHS online for free and see it for yourself:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/windowshomeserver/eval.mspx
It does.
It's "Drive Extender". It was a key feature in the old WHS but was removed in WHS 2011 due to technical reasons. Understandbly, quite a few users have heavily criticized WHS 2011 for that removal.
You're gonna have to contact your security stuff company to see whether or not WHS 2011 will work as while Windows 7 is based off the same kernel as WHS 2011, some software companies do lock out different OSes in their drivers regardless of kernel support. Although, does your security stuff work on Win 2K8?
RAID isn't worth it unless you have an actual backup of said data stored on a different medium i.e external hard drive, another NAS, file server, etc.I think it'd be neat to have a raid just so I could be one of the "cool kids"
Depends on cheap it is.
Well here's a few options:
A) If you can free up the PCI-E x16 slot, this would be my recommended option:
$57 - IBM System X ServeRAID BR10I SAS/SATA Controller w/ Full Height PCI bracket option selected
$30 - 2 x 3ware SFF-8087 to Multi-lane SATA Forward Break-out Cable
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Total: $87 plus tax and shipping
The above will get you 8 SATA ports and pretty much set you for a while.
B) If you can't free up the PCI-E x16 slot and therefore have to use the PCI-E x1 slot, as long as you don't do any RAID and can accept lower stability, reliability, and performance, maybe a Silicon Image based PCI-E x1 card with 4 SATA ports might be an option as long as it's around $40 shipped. Any more than that and it's a bit of a rip-off.
C) If you can free up the PCI-E x16 slot, want RAID, AND have an actual backup for said RAID, this might be an option:
If you don't mind buying used hardware with little or no warranty, you could buy a Dell Perc 5/i card off eBay for ~$100 or so plus two of these SFF-8484 to 4 x SATA Cables for ~$25. Thus, you get 8 ports and a true hardware RAID controller for around ~$125 or so. Add a battery backup unit for ~$40 and you're set in case of power outages as well up the performance. Not a bad deal considering that a new true PCI-E hardware RAID controller is around $450 for 8 ports.
EDIT: As of May 2009, it seems that you can find many Perc 5/i cards with the BBU and PCI bracket for $120 and under. Excellent price!
EDIT: As of May 2010, it seems that prices for Perc 5/i cards have jumped up to $150 without BBU and PCI bracket.
EDIT: As of May 2011, it seems that the Perc 5/i can be be had for about $100 with BBU but without PCI Bracket.
But those Dell Perc 5/i cards are finicky about motherboards. It will take up PCI-E x16 slot if you don't have a PCI-E x8 slot.
Read these threads for more info:
Dell Perc 5/i RAID Card: Tips and Benchmarks
Perc 5/i Review over at Serve The Home
Finally went to a Hardware Raid5 controller...
Dell Perc 5/i - Mainboard Compatibility List
Solution for Dell Perc 5/i for Intel Chipsets
Add 8 device SAS/SATA 256MB BBU Enterprise class RAID card to your rig for about $100 w/ PERC 5i (LSI 8480E OEMed to Dell)
wow, awesome reply. I don't mind buying used at all, I personally have rarely had anything but PS's and video cards crap out on me and that has always been my own fault for pushing them too far with the exception of a couple no name PSU's in budget PC's that weren't even OC'd. I really like that idea of the used part because it leaves me open for expansion for a long time. If I were to get a 4 port card it would be fine leaving me with 8TB plus close to another TB between the security/OS drives plus leaving me with 2 slots open for the future but that way leaves me with 6. By the time I run out there it will absolutely be time to upgrade anyway.
This is just an idea, let me know what you think about it. I actually have one of these cards only MSI brand vs sapphire
1x mod
I'm sure you've seen it before, but do you think that's a good idea? Only reason I got that card was because when I bought my 8gb of 1866 for my bulldozer build when I replace this e8400 system the video card was $40 but in a combo deal it gave a $20 combo discount plus a $15 mail in rebate with ending price of $5, figured it was too good to pass up but it might actually go to good use if you think that's worth trying. I was planning on using an x600 as the video card for the server but I dont mind putting the 4350 to use. Or should I try it on the x600?
That is so awesome you can demo WHS, I had no idea I could do that. If my cameras work on it I am absolutely doing that because it's cheaper than Win7 and it has that back up for networked pc's which is awesome. It could do weekly back ups and I will never have to worry about forgetting and having out of date ones anymore. You've helped me a bunch, you have no idea. Good thing I have tomorrow off, I'm going to be reading about that perc 5/i, seems to give you a lot for the price, it's crazy how some used items go up in price. Same thing happened with my Z680 5.1 speakers, I bought mine for $170 shipped(they were used), now used they are like $300.
thanks for another great post, had I just bought that initial controller I was thinking about getting I would have been disappointed had I not posted here first.
This is just an idea, let me know what you think about it. I actually have one of these cards only MSI brand vs sapphire
1x mod
I'm sure you've seen it before, but do you think that's a good idea? Only reason I got that card was because when I bought my 8gb of 1866 for my bulldozer build when I replace this e8400 system the video card was $40 but in a combo deal it gave a $20 combo discount plus a $15 mail in rebate with ending price of $5, figured it was too good to pass up but it might actually go to good use if you think that's worth trying. I was planning on using an x600 as the video card for the server but I dont mind putting the 4350 to use. Or should I try it on the x600?
That is so awesome you can demo WHS, I had no idea I could do that. If my cameras work on it I am absolutely doing that because it's cheaper than Win7 and it has that back up for networked pc's which is awesome. It could do weekly back ups and I will never have to worry about forgetting and having out of date ones anymore. You've helped me a bunch, you have no idea. Good thing I have tomorrow off, I'm going to be reading about that perc 5/i, seems to give you a lot for the price, it's crazy how some used items go up in price. Same thing happened with my Z680 5.1 speakers, I bought mine for $170 shipped(they were used), now used they are like $300.
thanks for another great post, had I just bought that initial controller I was thinking about getting I would have been disappointed had I not posted here first.
Dangman
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I've actually never seen that before. Learn something new everyday
Have you actually gotten the rebate? If not, then it's a $20 card. Do you potentially wasting $20 by doing the above mod? If not, go for it as I would think that the HD 4350 uses less power than the x600 and therefore have a higher chance of sucess.
If you did get the rebate, go for it for the power reason above.
Remember what I've said: ONly get it if you can afford an actual backup of any valuable data on that RAID array. Also note that the Dell Perc 5/i card does not support hard drives greater than 2TB in size. So at most, you'can only have 14TB if you're using a RAID 5 array with that card.
so say with a raid 5, if 1 drive fails do I lose all data on all drives meaning I'd need a backup of actual data size vs jbod where if a drive fails I only lose what's on that drive? If so I guess I am thinking about jumping back on the jbod bandwagon. I'm trying to understand here, so if I'm not understanding right please correct me. so does the array split the data among the multiple drives which is why you need a full bakup making it so if you lose a drive you're pretty much screwed? Where with a jbod I will lose at most 2tb (unless something catastrophic happens) of storage since that is the largest hard drive size in my server? Not having a full backup it is sounding like jbod is the way to go so I'm just verifying.
I never looked up the power requirements of those 2 video cards, I guess I assumed the x600 being less powerful (I think anyway, had that thing for many many years and it keeps on kickin) it would require less than the 4350 which can handle light gaming with even some of the latest games, supports 1080p/hdmi etc
*edit* looked up my security card and this is what it says but I'm going to run the trial anyway, since you say they are same kernel, maybe they just haven't updated their site, this card is pretty old, pre-WHS 2011. It should work unless they purposely locked out other OS's right? worth a shot at saving some $ if all I need is WHS 2011 plus it has a few features the more expensive Win7 doesn't offer. I guess I can throw some old parts together to make a temporary PC to test it with WHS.
Operating Systems Supported Win2000, WinXP, Vista, Win7 (MacOS not supported)
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Dangman
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In a RAID 5, if one drive dies, all of the data stored on the array is still available. Until the second drive dies, in which case all data is lost. However, if you can put in a similar sized replacement drive as quickly as possible, the RAID array will rebuild itself and therefore your data will be up and relatively safe again from a single drive loss.
The array does split the data among multiple drives. However the main reason why I recommend having a backup (Not a full backup but a backup) if you have a RAID array is that a RAID array can be corrupted or made inoperable with the death or malfunctioning of the RAID controller. As such a backup is needed just in case such events occur.
And by backup, I mean only a copy of your most valuable or irreplaceable data.
Yeah try that and see what happens.
hmm, that WHS testing thing is just some online thing, not like a downloadable trial. WHS 2011 is on sale at newegg through the 3rd too for only $50 using coupon code EMCKCHB47 so I might just order it. Figure install it, try it without activating and if it doesn't work then no big deal since I didn't activate it, to ebay it goes at $50 I can make up at least the majority of what I spent after fees etc I'm sure.
and now I'm thinking I do want to go the raid route again, that sounds pretty appealing with it being able to fix itself Even though I don't understand it I like it. Important files is no big deal to back up anyway, nothing on the raid will be critical, the only critical things will be documents from my pc's, the back ups etc and I don't mind putting an extra drive in this PC to mirror that hard drive, nothing in the array will be critical at all, it'll just be my library where the things I record on TV with my tv tuner in the HTPC's, my DVD/Blu-Ray back-ups etc and if I lost them, well.. oh well? I'll have to dust the disks off and back em up again. I have a lot of DVD's and the purpose of wanting this is so I don't have to keep my dvd collection next to the dvd player anymore because I have a pretty small living room and being able to remove that shelf will free up a lot of real estate in there so I can store them away in the garage and it won't look so cluttered.
at $50 I can make up at least the majority of what I spent after fees etc I'm sure. and now I'm thinking I do want to go the raid route again, that sounds pretty appealing with it being able to fix itself
Even though I don't understand it I like it. Important files is no big deal to back up anyway, nothing on the raid will be critical, the only critical things will be documents from my pc's, the back ups etc and I don't mind putting an extra drive in this PC to mirror that hard drive, nothing in the array will be critical at all, it'll just be my library where the things I record on TV with my tv tuner in the HTPC's, my DVD/Blu-Ray back-ups etc and if I lost them, well.. oh well? I'll have to dust the disks off and back em up again. I have a lot of DVD's and the purpose of wanting this is so I don't have to keep my dvd collection next to the dvd player anymore because I have a pretty small living room and being able to remove that shelf will free up a lot of real estate in there so I can store them away in the garage and it won't look so cluttered.woohoo, I got my copy of WHS 2011 and installed it today on a seperate HD just to test in my PC and the security cameras do work. It initially gave me some sort of directdraw error but with reading I seen it had something to do with the video card and with my superior troubleshooting it only took me almost an hour to figure out I should install the video card driver
Once I was bright enough to try that the cameras all worked fine but since I can't sacrifice this PC just yet it looks like I'm stuck using my external drive for the time being. Damn AMD for postponing the bulldozer release. I really appreciate your help Danny, despite you joining this forum so much later than me you came through young grasshoppa... jk
Well it sucks I have to wait, but recycling this PC into being my server leaves me open for expanding in the future with more sata ports, pci-e, just more stuff in general, it's ATX vs the micro atx ecs board
Once I was bright enough to try that the cameras all worked fine but since I can't sacrifice this PC just yet it looks like I'm stuck using my external drive for the time being. Damn AMD for postponing the bulldozer release. I really appreciate your help Danny, despite you joining this forum so much later than me you came through young grasshoppa... jk
Well it sucks I have to wait, but recycling this PC into being my server leaves me open for expanding in the future with more sata ports, pci-e, just more stuff in general, it's ATX vs the micro atx ecs board
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Just fyi, FakeRAID /= software RAID.
Dangman
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Glad to see WHS 2011 is working out for you so far