The Tech Worker Shortage Doesn't Really Exist

Ducman69 said:
If anything, we have a surplus, and if it were me I'd go into the medical industry, that's where I see the growth.
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I dunno about the rest of the medical industry, but I do know that the hype biomedical engineering and it's supposed ridiculous growth is an outright fallacy. I have plenty of friends that got sucked into that black hole of a degree program only to realize there are no jobs across the country and the ones that do exist usually pay in used bubblegum. Most either never entered industry or are no longer working BME because of this.
 
rudy said:
All the answers to your problems are in your own post. The main point of having a sexy fun get rich quick job is that whole get rich part. If you pay a person enough to get rich they will hang around for 10 years. The reality is you guys probably just aren't willing to do what I mentioned, train people for 10 years. Also if you have to just do the stuff for 10 years it would seem your industry and company has a serious lack of recording information going on and some smart engineer probably purposely did not record what they were doing so they could make sure that no one else knew it and have plenty of job security. looks like they pulled it off pretty well.
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QFT

You all have forgotten how we got in this business in the first place. Because we tinkered with something, and caused a thing to happen, and then we tinkered some more and more things happened.

In order for that exploration aspect to work, and to work well enough where it can hold a young persons interest, there has to be a certain level of intuitiveness and documentation, and a feedback loop. There are so many things in Linux that have ZERO logic. They are there, and they work the way they do because they are remnants from the days of mainframes.

Nonsense like this:
adm-3a-hjkl-keyboard.jpg


yeah that's right i said it.
 
jimmyb said:
I assume the "at any price" part can't be true.

Big companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc. will pay well over 6 figures to skilled employees. Have you tried that price?
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Well of course it's not literally true. We're not going to offer 6 figures for a basic help desk support tech. And we're also not going to pay a programmer more than most upper management people make. The salary and benefits package we offer is very competitive for the area, and everything is negotiable. We just aren't getting qualified people even applying. Maybe it's a recruiting issue, I don't know. I don't see that side of things. All I know is that we get a large number of applications, and the handful that are even worth bringing in for an interview turn out to be shit. We get people loading up their resumes with tech acronyms and other garbage, and during the interview we find out that they have merely heard of the term but don't actually know what it is or have any experience. Then we have some that have some technical proficiency, but lack the personality we need. Our director does not like to micromanage, and does not want people who are just there to put in their 8 hours and go home. He wants people who live and breathe IT, and are proactive in furthering their skill set.
 
nutzo said:
+1
I'm not sure where you are from, but out here in Southern California, there is enough of a glut that wages are still depressed from 15 years ago. I've taken on a lot more work and responsibilities and I'm still making less (about 25% less adjusted for inflation) than I was 15 years ago.

There are some positions that are hard to fill, specifically SQL people that have good customer skills and are willing to travel. However, I'm sure if the company was willing to pay 20% more they would have a lot less trouble finding people, but then they would have to give everyone else raises too :)
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I'm in the central valley of CA. There is a massive supply of unskilled workers in this area that primarily work in agriculture or the oil fields. The company I work for is an oil field services company. We get a ton of applications from outside our area, many from the Los Angeles area.

On another note, my cousin works for an online SaaS company based in the central coast area. She is a recruiter, and they are having the same problem finding good talent. They have already exhausted the local supply and have had to recruit from out of the state. Even with very competitive compensation and offers to pay for moving expenses, they still can't get enough people. There may be a glut of IT workers, but a huge chunk of them are crap. Like I said before and I think someone else said, I think there are a ton of people looking for IT jobs that have little or no experience, and are only doing it because they think they can make a bunch of money. These are people who don't give a damn about computers or technology in their personal time. It's just a job to them.
 
mdburkey said:
In certain roles, there definitely ARE shortages -- at least of QUALIFIED and capable people.

If you are looking for web programmers, database programmers, etc. they are basically a dime a dozen.
Now try to find good low level embedded programmers with hardware integration experience, device driver writers, basic C level kernel work, etc. Or for that matter, just good old fashioned low level programming in straight C++ for an embedded system where you are lucky if you have a framebuffer for display. The same goes for good EE's capable of doing full board design and layout, especially if any analog design and high speed signal processing are required. Ditto for good DSP and/or FPGA programmers.

Basically, with a decent driver oriented software engineer you should be able to hand the datasheet, the schematic, and tell them the kernel/os version and then ask them to get back with you when they have something to test.

One of the companies I work for has had req's open for years and hasn't been able to fill the positions -- and they aren't low paying positions for this area.

It is difficult these days to try to find a programmer these days who actually doesn't give you blank looks when you talk about direct I/O access to SPI, I2C, DMA, memory mapped I/O, etc.

Here's hoping the Raspberry Pi is giving at least some lowlevel hardware experience to a new generation.
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What you describe is basically exactly what I went to school for, yet when I graduated there were little to zero jobs in that field that didn't want 5+ years of experience. So I guess it's a catch-22.
 
MavericK96 said:
What you describe is basically exactly what I went to school for, yet when I graduated there were little to zero jobs in that field that didn't want 5+ years of experience. So I guess it's a catch-22.
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I didn't graduate with that, but I did graduate with CompE. I didn't focus on any one specific thing, but I was pretty good with C/C++. Heck my intro C++ class had us programming for a game boy emulator. Even with the code the professor posted it was a pain in the butt because up till that class I hadn't ever done any programming (unless Matlab really counts, as that was my technical first). I had experience with VHDL, digital circuits, analog circuits, VLSI, etc. I wasn't an expert by any means, especially not in analog (diodes are the bane of my existence...). Had some experience with various IO things (though in just a wrapper form) thanks to working with MBED a lot.

Doing drivers is a pain. I'm pretty sure if someone started teaching me how to do drivers and such it might take a little while for me to pick it up, but I could probably do it. On the other hand, the issue is a lot of companies just post these astronomical requirements like on the level of "dude you need to be a grad student or have done bucketloads of unpaid research". I did get offered a research position in DSP at my college but I denied it because I didn't need something making my life harder for no money.

Fast forward to now. I got hired to code perl and php and web and database stuff, because I was a "computerey person". Yeah, just go ahead and take a guess at how much I'm getting challenged at this position. Just a wild stab. >_>
 
Ducman69 said:
Maybe not, because those things are already very large, and you can be a security guard/cop/homeland guy well into old age quite successfully with great job security due to the unions. To be growth sectors, you'd expect them to get much larger than they already are, but I think its as big as it can get.

And with more and more states legalizing marijuana, I think we're starting to see an end to the war on drugs, which feeds that system.

Obama is downsizing the military now as well, and over 1200 captains and 500 majors were just forced to resign, some finding out while they were on active duty.

Thanks to Obamacare though, I see there being a huge increase in healthcare usage, and as such a need for doctors and RNs and the like.
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What Branch of Service are these forced "resignations" occurring from? I would guess it would not be resignations anyways but more likely, early retirement. After all, Captains in the Navy and in the USMC are two different things.
 
i960 said:
And we're also not going to pay a programmer more than most upper management people make. The salary and benefits package we offer is very competitive for the area, and everything is negotiable.
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Its obviously not competitive though if your competitors are getting the employees and you're not. Introductory salary for a first year field engineer graduating from school (say UT ME) is $75K here, and within 3-5 years tops you should already be earning triple digits. But if you had graduated computer science from the same school instead, companies want to pay you $50K starting off for the equivalent amount of training, and then wonder what the problem is.
 
The real issue, say Salzman and others, is the industry’s desire for lower-wage, more-exploitable guest workers, not a lack of available American staff.
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This pretty much sums it up. When my sister graduated during the .dot com bubble/boom, she majored in a worthless major (sociology), but was able to get a job in the tech industry because they were willing to train.

You go to Monster or Career Builder or whatever, and I see all these posts of "Looking for X. Must have skills in A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and J. K & L are preferable" And then they're offering peanuts for the position. I'm sorry, but if someone has all those skills, they're probably not going to be a college graduate, and most likely already have a job for a much higher salary than you're offering.

No one wants to train because they're afraid that the person will leave at the first opportunity for a better company. And honestly, they're right. You have the skills, and you'll get multiple phone calls a week, even if you're not actively looking for a job. But when you talk to the HR person, when the question of "What are you currently making" comes up, it becomes an instant "Yeah, we can't match that. Bye".

Expectations from the companies need to be lowered, and they need to realize that if they're going to offer rock bottom prices, they should expect rock bottom results and be a revolving door and a training ground for better companies.
 
ManofGod said:
What Branch of Service are these forced "resignations" occurring from? I would guess it would not be resignations anyways but more likely, early retirement. After all, Captains in the Navy and in the USMC are two different things.
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Sorry, I left out "army". http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/08/01/army-cutting-500-majors-starting-next-week.html

I'm sure there are other branches affected as well, but main point is just that the military really isn't a strong growth sector as suggested by any means:
The Army suggested that more cuts were coming: "As a result of future budget restrictions previously passed by Congress, the active Army will further reduce its end-strength by 20,000 Soldiers in both 2016 and 2017"
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They are working with GM to get them jobs as service technicians at dealerships... lol, have to be pretty desperate to take that, but I guess if you're not given much notice then it might work as a temporary stopgap. Sucks ass.
 
mastaBlasta said:
Nonsense like this:
adm-3a-hjkl-keyboard.jpg


yeah that's right i said it.
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Those are vim keybindings, and they are there for good reason. There are definitely some esoteric and questionable aspects of Linux, but that's not one of them.
 
Ducman69 said:
Introductory salary for a first year field engineer graduating from school (say UT ME) is $75K here
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Where is this? UT = University of Texas? $75k for an entry level salary, even for a degreed engineer, is borderline insane.

Looks like the real average number is a bit over $71k with $70k as the median...which is still pretty nuts for an entry level position. Must be a pretty ridiculous cost of living down there.
 
Nytegard said:
This pretty much sums it up. When my sister graduated during the .dot com bubble/boom, she majored in a worthless major (sociology), but was able to get a job in the tech industry because they were willing to train.

You go to Monster or Career Builder or whatever, and I see all these posts of "Looking for X. Must have skills in A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and J. K & L are preferable" And then they're offering peanuts for the position. I'm sorry, but if someone has all those skills, they're probably not going to be a college graduate, and most likely already have a job for a much higher salary than you're offering.

No one wants to train because they're afraid that the person will leave at the first opportunity for a better company. And honestly, they're right. You have the skills, and you'll get multiple phone calls a week, even if you're not actively looking for a job. But when you talk to the HR person, when the question of "What are you currently making" comes up, it becomes an instant "Yeah, we can't match that. Bye".

Expectations from the companies need to be lowered, and they need to realize that if they're going to offer rock bottom prices, they should expect rock bottom results and be a revolving door and a training ground for better companies.
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This is exactly what is happening today!
 
Show me the qualifications for management and their pay and then compare them with the tech workers. The tech workers should be making more if you look strictly at the job requirements. The problem with tech jobs is that the requirements list is always a mile long and no business wants to do training. If they find somebody that actually has all of those requirements, they'll want to pay him 50% of what he's worth since you can't have him making more than the current employees who have obviously been there longer.

I wouldn't recommend the tech field to any new graduate. You'll be forced to constantly keep your skills up-to-date at your own expense and on your own time and probably have to prove it by an endless list of certifications. You'll be competing against the third world via the H1-B program and outsourcing. You'll constantly have to job hop since every company wants to keep wages down and has a typical annual salary increase of 2% when your worth increases by 10% or more. You'll be working long hours that are unpaid. If you ever have to work as a contractor, you'll have 35-50% of your salary taken by the recruiter. You typically have less respect than the janitorial crew in a typical company. You'll be working in the basement if they have one and that kind of reflects your status. The money is generally higher starting out than other professions but it doesn't stay that way over time. There's usually real forms of advancement in other departments but generally not in IT.

The worst problem for any tech worker is that years of experience don't mean much after a certain point. You can't have X years of experience in a new technology since by definition, it's new. 40 years of Fortran 66 knowledge isn't move valuable than 10 years of Java or even 5 years of whatever the newest thing is. I think that's what the biggest catch is for anybody in a tech field -- experience only matters up to a maximum of 10 years and then it actually becomes a liability. Age discrimination is alive and well in IT and presumably most tech fields.
 
Lith1um said:
The strongest growth sectors I can see are LEO / homeland security / prison / military industrial complex.
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Most law enforcement agencies have hiring freezes, the few openings are very competitive and generally require you to already be certified and have paid for your own academy.
 
Nytegard said:
This pretty much sums it up. When my sister graduated during the .dot com bubble/boom, she majored in a worthless major (sociology), but was able to get a job in the tech industry because they were willing to train.

You go to Monster or Career Builder or whatever, and I see all these posts of "Looking for X. Must have skills in A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and J. K & L are preferable" And then they're offering peanuts for the position. I'm sorry, but if someone has all those skills, they're probably not going to be a college graduate, and most likely already have a job for a much higher salary than you're offering.

No one wants to train because they're afraid that the person will leave at the first opportunity for a better company. And honestly, they're right. You have the skills, and you'll get multiple phone calls a week, even if you're not actively looking for a job. But when you talk to the HR person, when the question of "What are you currently making" comes up, it becomes an instant "Yeah, we can't match that. Bye".

Expectations from the companies need to be lowered, and they need to realize that if they're going to offer rock bottom prices, they should expect rock bottom results and be a revolving door and a training ground for better companies.
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That is one of the biggest problems I have seen and run into in the IT field. Many businesses put a laundry list of "requirements" for positions that are so far out of touch with reality it is a joke. Every time I see a 4 year degree required on a position that is offering 30-40k a year I just want to punch someone. Especially if it is for something like a NE or a Server admin where a degree is about as valuable as toilet paper.
 
mlcarson said:
I wouldn't recommend the tech field to any new graduate. You'll be forced to constantly keep your skills up-to-date at your own expense and on your own time and probably have to prove it by an endless list of certifications. You'll be competing against the third world via the H1-B program and outsourcing. You'll constantly have to job hop since every company wants to keep wages down and has a typical annual salary increase of 2% when your worth increases by 10% or more. You'll be working long hours that are unpaid. If you ever have to work as a contractor, you'll have 35-50% of your salary taken by the recruiter. You typically have less respect than the janitorial crew in a typical company. You'll be working in the basement if they have one and that kind of reflects your status. The money is generally higher starting out than other professions but it doesn't stay that way over time. There's usually real forms of advancement in other departments but generally not in IT.
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EEEP. :eek:

I don't know where you've worked that you have such a gloomy view of the field, but everyone else i've dealt with thinks this is one of the best fields to be in. My view and experience is pretty much the exact opposite of what you just stated. Luck of the draw i guess.
 
mlcarson said:
experience only matters up to a maximum of 10 years and then it actually becomes a liability. Age discrimination is alive and well in IT and presumably most tech fields.
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This is a real problem with any job that uses computers, especially if you are over 50. The assumption is that if you are older, your knowledge is out of date, and you can't/won't be able to keep up with younger employees. There's also the issue that older workers generally expect more pay due to their years of experience.

If you are looking for a job, you need to purge your resume of older jobs and certifications that are no longer relevant. Also remove the dates from your schooling, and consider coloring your hair, assuming you still have some :) They are not supposed to ask you age, as age discrimination is illegal, but if you look/act old/tired, then it's going to hurt you job prospects.
 
I'm fine with my job. I'm not making a killing, but I started out at 60k-ish. For how easy it is and how lazy I can be there, it's fine. For me that's fine enough to live in until I decide to go for a master's degree, and it gives me plenty of money to play around with. I'm not sure why everyone is so hung up about making triple digits.

Unfortunately though the Mechanical Engineer people that I graduated with had a much harder time than I did. I pretty much just went to one career fair at college and then got the job just a bit later. Of course I presented myself to many companies at the fair, but still... First time I actually even really tried. On the other hand, they kind of struggled to find jobs. One of them went into the army. The other got hired making half as much as I did. Job opportunities if anything seem to be very anecdotal and utterly chaotic. You know that "it's who you know" adage? It's also quite true. This company regularly sends out emails asking for people to refer candidates. Same with career fairs and interviews. If you just present yourself positively sometimes your credentials don't even matter as long as "eh I don't know what half this crap is but at least you're computerey and some group I know needs something like that, kinda"... >_>;
 
The power of labor is pretty much dead in this country; tech and programming is one of the last fields where wages are actually growing. Big business wants to kill that, stat.

Otherwise, median income has grown barely 0.1% over inflation since 1970. I'm not a fan of government unions, or even unions overall, but somehow the balance of power needs to become more equal again.
 
Ducman69 said:
Its obviously not competitive though if your competitors are getting the employees and you're not. Introductory salary for a first year field engineer graduating from school (say UT ME) is $75K here, and within 3-5 years tops you should already be earning triple digits. But if you had graduated computer science from the same school instead, companies want to pay you $50K starting off for the equivalent amount of training, and then wonder what the problem is.
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Our competitors aren't getting them either, because they mostly don't exist. The applicants don't know what the compensation package is until the job is offered. And for the most part, the jobs aren't being offered because the candidates are completely unqualified. That's the problem. The only candidate out of hundreds that was qualified for our programming position wanted $150k. That is absolutely insane, especially for this area. There are only 2 people in the entire company that make more than that, and they are the CEO and the owner. But he was in a position to ask for that much because he was already making near that by being a consultant. And I think that's what all the really good guys and gals do. They just run their own company.
 
nutzo said:
This is a real problem with any job that uses computers, especially if you are over 50. The assumption is that if you are older, your knowledge is out of date, and you can't/won't be able to keep up with younger employees. There's also the issue that older workers generally expect more pay due to their years of experience.
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It's not even 50. I read somewhere (sorry, forgot where), where 35 is considered being a dinosaur in the field. And it's true. I've worked in the government and a large corporation. One difference is the age. The corporation, I believe the average age of the software developer was 25. And they probably prefer it. Rather than a Christmas bonus, they would give people a cheap trinket like an ipod. Even if it was only $100, I'd still have preferred a $100 check. But the majority of people around there were stoked about such an awesome gift. And they don't mind giving up 80+ hours to the company and working weekends. They have an "I've gotta give it all to the company attitude". Yeah, because the company cares about you too. And when layoffs/firings happen, they're caught off guard that the company isn't nearly as loyal to you as you are to them.

And that to me is what it comes down to. Young people are great candidates because they can be brainwashed, because they don't know any better. And they're fairly cheap to bribe. To them, $60k is a fortune, and throwing in stuff like a masseuse or cafeteria and group outings can keep their morale up while the employees don't realize how they're being manipulated.
 
i960 said:
Our competitors aren't getting them either, because they mostly don't exist. The applicants don't know what the compensation package is until the job is offered. And for the most part, the jobs aren't being offered because the candidates are completely unqualified. That's the problem. The only candidate out of hundreds that was qualified for our programming position wanted $150k. That is absolutely insane, especially for this area. There are only 2 people in the entire company that make more than that, and they are the CEO and the owner. But he was in a position to ask for that much because he was already making near that by being a consultant. And I think that's what all the really good guys and gals do. They just run their own company.
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It's not ridiculous though. It's capitalism. You're asking for unreasonable requirements for a specific salary, and you're not getting it, and you're also not willing to train for it. The fact is, there is one person who is capable, and the market has already decided how much he's worth. You can't just say there's a worker shortage. It's like me saying there's a fast food hamburger shortage because I'm looking for a burger for $0.10.
 
Nytegard said:
It's not ridiculous though. It's capitalism. You're asking for unreasonable requirements for a specific salary, and you're not getting it, and you're also not willing to train for it. The fact is, there is one person who is capable, and the market has already decided how much he's worth. You can't just say there's a worker shortage. It's like me saying there's a fast food hamburger shortage because I'm looking for a burger for $0.10.
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Not willing to train, on my own time, for a specific company's needs that will likely let me go as soon as an analyst gets nervous and downgrades the company from a "Strong Buy" to a "Buy", triggering big layoffs?

Fuck it. If companies have specific needs, they need to take on risk to get people to learn it. They're trying to offload 100% of the risk to the laborer.
 
Nytegard said:
It's not ridiculous though. It's capitalism. You're asking for unreasonable requirements for a specific salary, and you're not getting it, and you're also not willing to train for it. The fact is, there is one person who is capable, and the market has already decided how much he's worth. You can't just say there's a worker shortage. It's like me saying there's a fast food hamburger shortage because I'm looking for a burger for $0.10.
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Show me a C# / .NET programmer making $150k that isn't working in a very high cost of living area like san fran or new york. They can make that kind of coin running their own business for sure, but not working for another company. Our requirements are not that high. And also, the compensation has to make business sense. Why pay a single guy $150k plus benefits per year, when we can outsource the job for $100k. And I'm not talking about over seas outsourcing, I'm talking about hiring a local software development firm that so far has written very good code and done so on time and on budget. They were supposed to be a temporary solution because we can't find any good programmers. We've been trying to find someone that we can bring in house to take over the project, but we are coming up empty. 1 guy out of hundreds that is qualified IS a shortage. We aren't getting guys that are even 75% proficient that just need a bit of training and time. We are getting guys applying for a C# programming position who did some javascript in high school and call themselves a programmer. It's a joke. And that's for the programmer. We also have 3 help desk positions open, and nearly every one who has applied has never worked on a computer before. The ones who have are terrible at it, or in some cases they are ridiculously over qualified and shouldn't be going after an entry level position. Those people will never be happy in the position so it's not fair of us to put them there. And I would be more than happy to train someone. I would even prefer it as I can teach them the right way to do things instead of the half assed way many people do things. But they have to have some level of skill first. I can't spend a year training one guy who has no experience, that's just not realistic.
 
But are those outsourced assets performing anywhere near what you're looking for domestically? In my experience, not even close. Companies want $150k performers for $100k, but then are willing to pay $50k-$75k performers overseas $100k, which is supposedly saving them money.
 
Parja said:
Where is this? UT = University of Texas? $75k for an entry level salary, even for a degreed engineer, is borderline insane.

Looks like the real average number is a bit over $71k with $70k as the median...which is still pretty nuts for an entry level position. Must be a pretty ridiculous cost of living down there.
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Not uncommon in energy, and cost of living is pretty low in TX.
 
TwistedAegis said:
But are those outsourced assets performing anywhere near what you're looking for domestically? In my experience, not even close. Companies want $150k performers for $100k, but then are willing to pay $50k-$75k performers overseas $100k, which is supposedly saving them money.
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There aren't any $150k performers in this area, nor do we need one. That one guy making $150k only makes that because he is also the owner of his own company. He wears many hats on top of being a programmer. He would be a $75k performer anywhere else. We aren't paying him for his business or sales or marketing abilities. We are only paying for a programmer. And again, it has to make business sense. It doesn't matter what the supply and demand is if you're going to end up losing money on the person. And really, we are paying $100k for $50k performers because that's probably what the programmers doing the actual work are making. The company has other non-billable staff that have to be paid too, plus money for marketing, taxes, profits, etc. We would rather not pay for all the other business expenses and just pay for the programmer.

I was recently sent out to a job site to redo the network wiring in a building that a previous contractor fucked up. I don't normally do that kind of work, but I'm good at it, so they sent me out. The customer was billed $75 per hour for me. I don't make $75 per hour or anywhere near it. That's just how it goes.
 
But that's what I'm saying, you'd rather pay $100k for $50k than bring in someone for $100k here in the states in the first place, even if they're worth "only" $75k-$90k...maybe they'll grow into the pay.
 
TwistedAegis said:
But that's what I'm saying, you'd rather pay $100k for $50k than bring in someone for $100k here in the states in the first place, even if they're worth "only" $75k-$90k...maybe they'll grow into the pay.
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The firm we hired is local, so it's not really outsourcing in the traditional sense. We would gladly pay someone $100k if they can do what the dev firm is doing for us. Problem is, we can't find anyone.
 
Parja said:
Where is this? UT = University of Texas? $75k for an entry level salary, even for a degreed engineer, is borderline insane.

Looks like the real average number is a bit over $71k with $70k as the median...which is still pretty nuts for an entry level position. Must be a pretty ridiculous cost of living down there.
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My brother started out as a field engineer at SLB with a ME degree, and he got $75K and that was years ago so adjusted for inflation is a little higher now. Cost of living here is low, and quickly became zero when they sent him over to Africa later and paid for everything.
 
i960 said:
The firm we hired is local, so it's not really outsourcing in the traditional sense. We would gladly pay someone $100k if they can do what the dev firm is doing for us. Problem is, we can't find anyone.
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I sympathize with the fact that matching up company and worker can be a hard task, and I think the more traditional means (even for tech standards) are becoming practically fruitless.

I would guess over the past ten years I've probably looked at at least 1,000 job reqs (software) and maybe only contacted <20 of those (srs). Some of them even put up the big salary numbers and I just clicked on by. People can have different triggers (both good and bad triggers).

I can say that when I see a wall-of-text req I move right along. That's just one example of a typical behavior that I have, that's probably specific to me.

You might have to look into different recruiting tactics and avenues, maybe even things that are radically different. It's also a matter of recognizing that finding the just-right candidate that happens to be within driving distance isn't going to be easy. Since you're getting completely unqualified people altogether, it seems the problem is more in how / where you're sending out the fishing line. There could be some communications issues there too.
 
Having received offers for less than what I currently make (which is not much) to move to a significantly more expensive urban area, on 6 month contract-to-hire (1099 at that), I would say it is definitely all about the money.
 
On that note, the thing that particularly irks me about the current sector is the complete blackout on pay/benefits when applying. There is nothing more irritating then spending days/weeks or even months going through an extensive interview process and essentially kissing ass the entire time only to get an utterly insulting offer that had I known that is all they were willing to pay I NEVER would of applied in the first place much less wasted countless hours/fuel on. It just gets under my skin when I waste so much of my time on a job that I never would of even considered taking for a second. A good example is recently I went through a 4 week interview process for a position I was interested in. This was for a "Wears many hats" type of IT position mostly with Cisco routers/switches but also being expected to essentially be most of the IT department, on call etc. Now I don't mind being the "one stop shop", but what I mind is being the one stop shop for the same amount of money I can make working a call center sitting on my ass doing damn near nothing.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
On that note, the thing that particularly irks me about the current sector is the complete blackout on pay/benefits when applying. There is nothing more irritating then spending days/weeks or even months going through an extensive interview process and essentially kissing ass the entire time only to get an utterly insulting offer that had I known that is all they were willing to pay I NEVER would of applied in the first place much less wasted countless hours/fuel on.
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It's almost like your time is valuable or something. Who could have guessed?

Dekoth-E- said:
What I mind is being the one stop shop for the same amount of money I can make working a call center sitting on my ass doing damn near nothing.
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Nooo, you should have been excited about the "opportunity"! Darn your sense of entitlement and lack of enthusiasm; that's the real problem with kids these days, right?
 
I'm in software development. A lot of my friends are developers. Jumping ships to higher paying jobs is not too difficult in my region.
What costs companies a lot is losing people with a few years experience. It takes a lot of time for someone to learn your business and understand your infrastructure. When a 2 year "veteran" leaves, the rest of the team is screwed. Good luck figuring out what they were working on.
I know out of college rates here range from mid-50's to lower 70's (depending on your background). Not bad for starting out. Cost of living here is pretty low.
A friend of mine, 3 years out of college, is now making $92k a year. He will probably be hitting 6 figures in a few years if he keeps pace. When I finished college, a good starting salary was 32k :) Times have changed. (Then again, gasoline was less than $1/gallon; fastfood combo meals were $3 - so my 32k wasn't too bad for the time)
 
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