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The "Smoothness" Factor

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burrish

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Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
6
I've read through several threads that have, at some point, mentioned "smoothness" with regard to comparing AMD and nV. I understand that this seems to apply more to SLI/Xfire, but I've seen it mentioned with single cards.

I'm about to get either a 670 or a 7950, and I wanted to see if there were any users who have used both cards and have an opinion, here. I understand that the 7950 seems to be a great card/OCer for the price, but if there's a noticeably better smooth-factor with the 670 (or the 6xx series, in general), then I'd really like to know.

On a side note, I'm replacing the cards in both of my below-listed rigs. One of them runs at 1680x1050, and the other is at 1920x1080. I was going to look into getting the Auria IPS panel that runs at 2560x1440, but I like my 20WMGX2, too much. In other words, I guess I'll be topping out at 1080 res. I'd even be willing to get the same card for both machines.

Anyway, I don't mean to start a flame-fest with my original question, but any input is much appreciated!
 
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In my recent experience with nVIDIA and AMD, smoothness was not much of an issue for single card setup. However, SLI was considerably smoother than CrossfireX in my experience.

If you do not plan to go SLI/Crossfire, I would suggest to go with the 7950.
 
The "smoothness/stutter" factor only applies to multiple card setups. In single card configs, both amd & nvidia are equally smooth in games. Whoever told you or mentioned that single amd cards (7000 series) deal with stutter, is most likely the typical nvidia troll/fanboy.

SLI is smoother than crossfire, in my experience. But micro-stutter isn't absent with SLI. It's there, but not as noticeable.
 
tonyftw said:
The "smoothness/stutter" factor only applies to multiple card setups. In single card configs, both amd & nvidia are equally smooth in games. Whoever told you or mentioned that single amd cards (7000 series) deal with stutter, is most likely the typical nvidia troll/fanboy.
Click to expand...

Techreport and some other sites may beg to differ but I will grant that stutter is much more noticeable in AMD Crossfire than on single cards.
 
Stoly said:
Techreport and some other sites may beg to differ but I will grant that stutter is much more noticeable in AMD Crossfire than on single cards.
Click to expand...

With single cards? I didn't buy the report then, nor now.
 
Go with the GTX 670 if is possible... The 7950 its great OC'er card but the 670 its even better... More if you can find any MSI PE OC version or EVGA FTW edition.. The card come in a easy 1200mhz factory clocked... Also its a better card than 7950. 7950 its compared more to the 660ti than the 670.
 
Araxie said:
Go with the GTX 670 if is possible... The 7950 its great OC'er card but the 670 its even better... More if you can find any MSI PE OC version or EVGA FTW edition.. The card come in a easy 1200mhz factory clocked... Also its a better card than 7950. 7950 its compared more to the 660ti than the 670.
Click to expand...

670 is great and all, but it is no match against a good clocking 7950.

Msi Twin Frozr 7950 at 1195/1650 - 3770k at 4.7 - Average OC, most non boost 7950's can do better.
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/6300467

Msi Twin Frozr 680 at 1241/1752 - 3770k at 4.8 - Same as above, average oc. This is a $450+ gpu though.
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/6492386

Not that 3dmark means anything, but 7950's currently have the best price/performance ratio for high-end cards.
 
Vittra said:
Take a look at this thread

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1761198

There's a long but very informative video that may help explain what "smoothness" is. The tl;dr version however is that you should not really experience a difference in smoothness in a single card configuration.
Click to expand...

Thanks a bunch for the link, Vittra! I'll have a look at the vid, asap. ...and thanks to everyone else for the responses, thus far. .
 
Araxie said:
Go with the GTX 670 if is possible... The 7950 its great OC'er card but the 670 its even better... More if you can find any MSI PE OC version or EVGA FTW edition.. The card come in a easy 1200mhz factory clocked... Also its a better card than 7950. 7950 its compared more to the 660ti than the 670.
Click to expand...

Ignore this post ^. I am not sure you know what you are talking about.
 
As the impending refresh of the 670 is looming I'd hold off on that card for another week or two, you'll either get a better performing part in the 770 or a bargain on the 670 as they try to clear stock.

Smoothness is really only a day to day concern in multi gpu setups, crossfire in my experience has been a real bummer compared to SLI. In single GPU setups however your pretty much fine (the rare exception will be down to a software issue like Farcry 3).
 
naticus said:
Ignore this post ^. I am not sure you know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
well he is not too far off. a 670 does not scale as well as the 7950 but its already 20% better out of the box. and a typically oced 670 and typically oced 7950 might trade blows but overall the 670 would be faster at 1920x1080. and out of the box a 660ti and 7950 are even but the 7950 clearly has the advantage when oced.
 
I can vouch for crossfire for being incredibly NOT smooth. Having two 5850 felt so "awesome" at the time. Actually using them was just painfully another story.
 
I just upgraded from a 580 to a 7950 and yes microstutter does happen with single cards. It's only on just a handful of games I've played but it does happen. The 580 never had this. Games off the top of my head are far cry 3(blood dragon doesnt? lol) and witcher 2
 
I think Farcry 3 is just a bad example, that game had something up with it because all of my cards performed the same why in regards to stutter.
 
I've been experiencing this "stutter" as well. Recently upgraded from GTX 570 to HD 7950...I've never experienced this problem with any of my GPUs. The 570 and the 6870 in backup systems does not have this problem. This symptom happens even when playing older titles, such as L4D2 and CS:GO. Once every two minutes or so, for about .25 seconds, there will be this odd "stutter" which is somewhat annoying. I've been running this card @ reference speeds sans OC.

I'm surprised to see someone with a 680 experience the same probs. Perhaps the two companies released this generation of cards not ready for prime time. It could be that because I'm running two monitors with different resolutions(1152P & 1080P) at the same time? I can't figure it out, as of yet.
 
next-Jin said:
I think Farcry 3 is just a bad example, that game had something up with it because all of my cards performed the same why in regards to stutter.
Click to expand...

Far cry 3 has a stuttering issues with all makes and models. It stuttered on my 670 PE and used to stutter on my 7970-- until 13.2 drivers fixed the issue.
 
The smoothness factor only applies to multi-card configs. A few months back there was a giant FUDstorm on this forum where a couple devoted Nvidia fanboys (and, curiously, persons in power at [H]) kept rehashing an article from Techreport. This article described some stuttering in Skyrim on a 7950 compared to a 670 after installing new drivers. The epic shitstorm of attention that this received was hilarious; all the Nvidia fanboys came out of the woodwork.

The "stuttering" which was observed turned out to be differences in frame-rendering time. AMD acknowledged that the new drivers were causing some sort of issue, and corrected the problem. As it happened, the same drivers causing the issue had also boosted AMD's video performance by 10-15% or so. Certain posters conspiratorially suggested that AMD had purposefully raised FPS at the expense of frame-time latency. Of course, this idiotic position was laid to rest when AMD later fixed the problem without reducing performance.

Going back a few more months, Techreports own articles showed Nvidia cards with absolutely terrible frametime latency consistency relative to AMD (the GTX 560, for example). And yet a large portion of the posters on this forum acted as though stuttering was a historical problem with AMD cards.

The entire affair is a lesson in marketing, herd-mentality, and especially the power of shady cash bandied about.

Moral of the story: the 7950 is still the best deal. The only reason to buy Nvidia, right now, is if you want multi-card gaming or a titan.
 
wabbitseason said:
The smoothness factor only applies to multi-card configs. A few months back there was a giant FUDstorm on this forum where a couple devoted Nvidia fanboys (and, curiously, persons in power at [H]) kept rehashing an article from Techreport. This article described some stuttering in Skyrim on a 7950 compared to a 670 after installing new drivers. The epic shitstorm of attention that this received was hilarious; all the Nvidia fanboys came out of the woodwork.

The "stuttering" which was observed turned out to be differences in frame-rendering time. AMD acknowledged that the new drivers were causing some sort of issue, and corrected the problem. As it happened, the same drivers causing the issue had also boosted AMD's video performance by 10-15% or so. Certain posters conspiratorially suggested that AMD had purposefully raised FPS at the expense of frame-time latency. Of course, this idiotic position was laid to rest when AMD later fixed the problem without reducing performance.

Going back a few more months, Techreports own articles showed Nvidia cards with absolutely terrible frametime latency consistency relative to AMD (the GTX 560, for example). And yet a large portion of the posters on this forum acted as though stuttering was a historical problem with AMD cards.

The entire affair is a lesson in marketing, herd-mentality, and especially the power of shady cash bandied about.

Moral of the story: the 7950 is still the best deal. The only reason to buy Nvidia, right now, is if you want multi-card gaming or a titan.
Click to expand...
Agree completely.

Going by some of the posts I read on the internet, they make it seem likes this is an amd only issue, when it isn't. And I know I'm not the only one who experiences these said issues with nvidia cards.
 
wabbitseason said:
The smoothness factor only applies to multi-card configs. A few months back there was a giant FUDstorm on this forum where a couple devoted Nvidia fanboys (and, curiously, persons in power at [H]) kept rehashing an article from Techreport. This article described some stuttering in Skyrim on a 7950 compared to a 670 after installing new drivers. The epic shitstorm of attention that this received was hilarious; all the Nvidia fanboys came out of the woodwork.

The "stuttering" which was observed turned out to be differences in frame-rendering time. AMD acknowledged that the new drivers were causing some sort of issue, and corrected the problem. As it happened, the same drivers causing the issue had also boosted AMD's video performance by 10-15% or so. Certain posters conspiratorially suggested that AMD had purposefully raised FPS at the expense of frame-time latency. Of course, this idiotic position was laid to rest when AMD later fixed the problem without reducing performance.

Going back a few more months, Techreports own articles showed Nvidia cards with absolutely terrible frametime latency consistency relative to AMD (the GTX 560, for example). And yet a large portion of the posters on this forum acted as though stuttering was a historical problem with AMD cards.

The entire affair is a lesson in marketing, herd-mentality, and especially the power of shady cash bandied about.

Moral of the story: the 7950 is still the best deal. The only reason to buy Nvidia, right now, is if you want multi-card gaming or a titan.
Click to expand...

Agree. Couldn't have said it better myself. Personally I never understood the mentality of a fanboy. I tend to make buying decisions based on many different factors and 'brand loyalty' is low on the totem pole in the decision process.
 
tonyftw said:
670 is great and all, but it is no match against a good clocking 7950.

Msi Twin Frozr 7950 at 1195/1650 - 3770k at 4.7 - Average OC, most non boost 7950's can do better.
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/6300467
Click to expand...

On air! I had three of those exact cards. No way would I run 1200mhz on air. It would be loud as hell. I don't recall any of my cards being stable at 1200mhz or more until I popped on the waterblocks.

I would say that 1100mhz is more of a typical 24/7 oc. Even still thats enough to match a GTX670 at 1250mhz with a good 400mhz memory oc on average.

wabbitseason said:
Moral of the story: the 7950 is still the best deal. The only reason to buy Nvidia, right now, is if you want multi-card gaming or a titan.
Click to expand...


or like using 3d vision or like a working transparency aa or like SGSSAA. Nvidia has a few nice features that I would like to see AMD match.

I do agree that 7950 is a great bang for your buck.
 
For purposes of discussion, there's 3 variables that everyone in this thread is trying to describe, each being a different concept. I will attempt to define so we can standardize on some language...

1. Microstutter - The appearance of unsmooth game play at frame rates that would lead one to believe it should be a playable experience, often caused by the inconsistent delivery of frames to the monitor over a given period of time.

2. Stutter - The appearance of unsmooth game play because the frame rate dropped because the card simply couldn't handle what it was trying to do.

3. Game play disruption - The appearance of unsmooth game play because there's something else running on your system that isn't cooperating with you gaming. This disruption is typically not tied to a specific scene or scenario within a particular game but seems to happen at random (or at a certain time interval).

burrish said:
I've read through several threads that have, at some point, mentioned "smoothness" with regard to comparing AMD and nV. I understand that this seems to apply more to SLI/Xfire, but I've seen it mentioned with single cards.

I'm about to get either a 670 or a 7950, and I wanted to see if there were any users who have used both cards and have an opinion, here. I understand that the 7950 seems to be a great card/OCer for the price, but if there's a noticeably better smooth-factor with the 670 (or the 6xx series, in general), then I'd really like to know.

On a side note, I'm replacing the cards in both of my below-listed rigs. One of them runs at 1680x1050, and the other is at 1920x1080. I was going to look into getting the Auria IPS panel that runs at 2560x1440, but I like my 20WMGX2, too much. In other words, I guess I'll be topping out at 1080 res. I'd even be willing to get the same card for both machines.

Anyway, I don't mean to start a flame-fest with my original question, but any input is much appreciated!
Click to expand...

For single card operation, the 7950 is the way to go, especially given how they were priced last time I looked. From a single card perspective, the "smoothness" argument is a moot point from a real world gaming experience. Sure, you can hitch it up to graphing devices all day long and make fancy graphs telling you that there's a problem, but at the end of the day, there's no way you'd be able to tell one from another in a Pepsi challenge scenario.

dhappy said:
I can vouch for crossfire for being incredibly NOT smooth. Having two 5850 felt so "awesome" at the time. Actually using them was just painfully another story.
Click to expand...

Depends on the game and resolution. When I added a second 5870 to my main rig a couple of years ago, it made a positive impact on my overall gaming experience.

UnclePauly09 said:
I just upgraded from a 580 to a 7950 and yes microstutter does happen with single cards. It's only on just a handful of games I've played but it does happen. The 580 never had this. Games off the top of my head are far cry 3(blood dragon doesnt? lol) and witcher 2
Click to expand...

Newer drivers have made a big difference with Far Cry 3 performance. I've seen the game play settings come up a good bit over the past few months on the same level cards. With regards to Witcher 2, if you're running at 2560 with no ubersampling or 1920 with ubersampling, it can get a bit choppy especially in the cutscenes as there's something in that game that the 7xxx series Radeons simply don't like. That being said, it is a DirectX 9 based game....

SeeThruHead said:
Inside the Second - Techreport

^Good read
Click to expand...

Also a good read: http://www.hardocp.com/article/2008/02/11/benchmarking_benchmarks

digital_buzzard said:
I've been experiencing this "stutter" as well. Recently upgraded from GTX 570 to HD 7950...I've never experienced this problem with any of my GPUs. The 570 and the 6870 in backup systems does not have this problem. This symptom happens even when playing older titles, such as L4D2 and CS:GO. Once every two minutes or so, for about .25 seconds, there will be this odd "stutter" which is somewhat annoying. I've been running this card @ reference speeds sans OC.

I'm surprised to see someone with a 680 experience the same probs. Perhaps the two companies released this generation of cards not ready for prime time. It could be that because I'm running two monitors with different resolutions(1152P & 1080P) at the same time? I can't figure it out, as of yet.
Click to expand...

If you're having trouble with Source engine based games, you're likely not having a GPU based issue, as even a lone 5870 can power those at 5760x1200 with ridiculous levels of IQ turned on. The gameplay disruption you are describing is more likely attributed to something else running on your system (antivirus, virtual machines, other programs, etc) that is not playing nice with the games you're trying to play. It can also be system memory limitations, virtual memory limitations, hard drives, or network latency not cooperating or any number of things...
 
David_Schroth said:
For purposes of discussion, there's 3 variables that everyone in this thread is trying to describe, each being a different concept. I will attempt to define so we can standardize on some language...

1. Microstutter - The appearance of unsmooth game play at frame rates that would lead one to believe it should be a playable experience, often caused by the inconsistent delivery of frames to the monitor over a given period of time.

2. Stutter - The appearance of unsmooth game play because the frame rate dropped because the card simply couldn't handle what it was trying to do.

3. Game play disruption - The appearance of unsmooth game play because there's something else running on your system that isn't cooperating with you gaming. This disruption is typically not tied to a specific scene or scenario within a particular game but seems to happen at random (or at a certain time interval).





If you're having trouble with Source engine based games, you're likely not having a GPU based issue, as even a lone 5870 can power those at 5760x1200 with ridiculous levels of IQ turned on. The gameplay disruption you are describing is more likely attributed to something else running on your system (antivirus, virtual machines, other programs, etc) that is not playing nice with the games you're trying to play. It can also be system memory limitations, virtual memory limitations, hard drives, or network latency not cooperating or any number of things...
Click to expand...

Well, the thing is...this symptom is not limited to Source engine based games. It happens to other titles as well(Fallout series, Oblivion, COH...these are all somewhat ancient titles). Usually, I zero-out my OS & dedicated games drives every six to eight months or so and reload the software...you know, to clean out the PC and get a fresh start on things. This rig with the 7950, the specs(HW & SW) has not changed. Only difference is the GPU with the latest drivers/patches. Maybe a little "burn-in" time is in order(After all these years, I still have doubts about this "burn-in" time regarding new PCs).
I am not a Fanboy. Even though I'm slightly harping on an AMD product, I actually prefer AMD GPUs. Many people post things about how GeForce drivers are superior...well, I've never had video driver issues with the red team going back to Radeon 64MB card. I just find this "stuttering" behavior a bit odd since this is the first encounter w/ a new GPU.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
On air! I had three of those exact cards. No way would I run 1200mhz on air. It would be loud as hell. I don't recall any of my cards being stable at 1200mhz or more until I popped on the waterblocks.

I would say that 1100mhz is more of a typical 24/7 oc. Even still thats enough to match a GTX670 at 1250mhz with a good 400mhz memory oc on average.




or like using 3d vision or like a working transparency aa or like SGSSAA. Nvidia has a few nice features that I would like to see AMD match.

I do agree that 7950 is a great bang for your buck.
Click to expand...

Haha yeah. Twin frozr is fantastic if the card is at barebones stock. Once you crank up the fan speed, the fans sound like jet engines.

1100/1150 core is the common 24/7 oc for 7950's on air, from what I've seen. Anything above that, you're either on water or benching.
 
the stutter is driver related. screen tearing is monitor related. people get confused with this.... honestly with the latest 7xxx catalyst drivers it has improved tremendously. i have a 670 sli and 7970 CF setup currently and can't tell the difference. i also only play fps games so if anyone should recognize it that would be me
 
digital_buzzard said:
Well, the thing is...this symptom is not limited to Source engine based games. It happens to other titles as well(Fallout series, Oblivion, COH...these are all somewhat ancient titles). Usually, I zero-out my OS & dedicated games drives every six to eight months or so and reload the software...you know, to clean out the PC and get a fresh start on things. This rig with the 7950, the specs(HW & SW) has not changed. Only difference is the GPU with the latest drivers/patches. Maybe a little "burn-in" time is in order(After all these years, I still have doubts about this "burn-in" time regarding new PCs).
I am not a Fanboy. Even though I'm slightly harping on an AMD product, I actually prefer AMD GPUs. Many people post things about how GeForce drivers are superior...well, I've never had video driver issues with the red team going back to Radeon 64MB card. I just find this "stuttering" behavior a bit odd since this is the first encounter w/ a new GPU.
Click to expand...

I had a stutter issue with a single 7950 (I've owned 4 of them and only one exhibited that behavior) and eventually I found out that the VRM's weren't cooled properly and it was throttling every few seconds. It wasn't immediately obvious because the clock speed did not drop, but using GPU-Z I could see the spikes in VRM temp. This was a windforce card and the heatsink wasn't fully attached to the VRM's. After I put a thicker thermal pad it was fine.
 
I went from 2x 4870x2 (Quad Crossfire) to my current 2x GTX680 setup. I never had any problems with the previous setup and a lack of smoothness, but then again crossfire has always seemed to work better with >2 GPUs
 
Odd, I sure as hell saw microstutter with 4870x2. A lot of it. I always heard that tri-fire and quad-fire showed less microstutter. I didn't find that to be true when I used 7950 tri-fire.
 
All of your responses have been informative, so THANKS to everyone! I've decided to go with the following card:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202030

I don't have any of the three games included with the bundle, and, at this point, don't plan to to go SLI/CF, so this seemed like a good fit. That said, only one of my machines will be dealt with, so I'll still need to get another card, at some point...
 
I'll be damned. I didn't know that there were actually any 7950s that used a reference 7970 cooler. That looks like a good card.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
I'll be damned. I didn't know that there were actually any 7950s that used a reference 7970 cooler. That looks like a good card.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the main reason I got this one was because of the cooler, as the rear-exit is always a good thing. (TWSS, I know) I've read that this style can get a bit toasty, so I'll likely be adding my own TIM.
 
burrish said:
All of your responses have been informative, so THANKS to everyone! I've decided to go with the following card:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202030

I don't have any of the three games included with the bundle, and, at this point, don't plan to to go SLI/CF, so this seemed like a good fit. That said, only one of my machines will be dealt with, so I'll still need to get another card, at some point...
Click to expand...

Good choice. The only drawback is the squirrel cage fan, but the card should be an excellent upgrade. I'm pretty sure it uses a 7970 style pcb, so it could come in handy if you ever decide to watercool it.
 
burrish said:
Yeah, the main reason I got this one was because of the cooler, as the rear-exit is always a good thing. (TWSS, I know) I've read that this style can get a bit toasty, so I'll likely be adding my own TIM.
Click to expand...

The 7970 reference cooler is pretty decent. Its a big step up over the 7950 reference cooler.

Seems like a solid choice. I've also had really good luck with sapphire customer service.
 
burrish said:
All of your responses have been informative, so THANKS to everyone! I've decided to go with the following card:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202030

I don't have any of the three games included with the bundle, and, at this point, don't plan to to go SLI/CF, so this seemed like a good fit. That said, only one of my machines will be dealt with, so I'll still need to get another card, at some point...
Click to expand...

Probably the best card for the money - smart move!
 
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