The Government Can Download Everything Off Your Computer At Border Crossings

There have been several cases in criminal courts, some people have been forced to reveal keys, some circuits have said it's protected by the 5th. Not sure how it would apply at the border, where you aren't suspected of a crime or charged with anything at the time.

I suspect they could seize the laptop, but I doubt they could compel you to reveal the password.
 
What if your password is also a written confession? Makes forcing you to violate the 5th a bit harder...in theory.
 
Conker said:
No one is truly free in this country anymore. All these laws are there to control peoples freedoms. To allow the government to do what ever it wants. People in power can use those powers for good or for evil. When the government is corrupt then you know what those positions of power are used for. The power of people doesn't exist today. Too many people are asleep. Oblivious to the fact they have no rights and no constitution anymore. :cool:
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What I always find ironic is that by the very definition 'free' means without cost or payment owed to another yet every citizen is given a serial number and forced into a taxation system which they have no (real) say in the matter or how much they (as a collective) are willing to pay to fund the rich, I mean, the government. Which can be up to 52.4% of your taxable income alone right off the bat without factoring in all the other taxes you'll encounter outside of that (sales tax, inflation tax, etc) if you make over $400K and live in NYC. I wouldn't call that free by any stretch of the imagination yet soldiers are (supposedly) fighting for our freedoms. Where is it to start? They're fighting to maintain this nations status quo, not my/our freedoms. I'm not anti-tax either but I'm definitely against having no (real) say in the matter. All I ever have seen my entire 493 years on this planet are taxes going up and up and up and up...all while the elite right loophole after loophole after loophole for themselves. Only a true fool would think we're being represented here. Elect who? Rich guy backed candidate 1 or 2 or 3?

I will admit that I'm completely wrong and wear a tin foil hat and matching socks when 'we the people' can openly decide the government has grown too large too fast and cut it in half thus lowering all income taxes by (at least) half. Closing the elites loopholes while we're at it. I won't hold my breath though. And by now some mega corporations are as powerful as some smaller governments so even if it happened, we'd still be fucked. I know Ducman told me no more Einstein quotes by his internet ruleing, but..."The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."

Lets see, a quasi independent (private (central=master) bank) owns our fiat currency and loans it to our government (who wastes it with out remorse), the top 20+ US corporations pay negative taxes at the end of the year, the elite get their income taxed down to 15% or less, and the rest of us (poor to wealth off) get fucked harder than mankind has fucked mother nature. IMO, the top 1% or less are running away with everything in the world of value and everyone else is too busy arguing with each other over scraps to stop and look around at the bigger picture. They're patenting our very futures!

"History, in general, only informs us what bad government is."
 
OEM said:
They would be, and I wish the majority of the dumbass hippies in this country would wake the fuck up to what is going on.
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They would be because guns is how's they solved problems back in the day. The government is a piece of shit on many levels but going about that route is a good way to start another civil war with many of our own children and women dying in their own homes. I'm not ready for that. Not until after my life. I want to be able to live a normal life without some dumbass hicks making the world into a place where I have to fear for my life everytime I open my front door. This life isn't THAT shitty, and if it is, you are doing something wrong. Lay off the action movies, zombie movies, and crime shows and learn to separate reality from fiction. The government has been spying on us since before most of us were born, theyve just adapted to the times and started using technology to do it.
 
with new encryption methods and password protections with AES 256 it will be very unlikely they would be able to access any data off the machine
 
Red Squirrel said:
Pretty much. Maybe not jail, but a long dragged out court session until you give in and give them the password. Though I imagine it would lead to jail. "Obstructing with evidence" or something like that would probably be the clause.

There was a case like this maybe about a year ago, I forget the exact details but basically the person refused to give the password and ended up in court and stuff. Not sure what ever came out of it.

Basically, whatever trip you're on, consider it ruined. :p
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I would assume they would have to have incriminating evidence to make you give up passwords. There should be no reason for them to search your laptop unless you have child pornography photographs found in your vehicle . Just get windows 10 and have multi factor authentication i.e. for everything and use a SSD that has built in AES 256 encryption
done son


http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/news-events/press-releases/detail?newsId=4044

in the next few years every hard ocp user should be encrypting with AES 256 because by then samsung ssds will come standard with this technology. Not to mention windows 10 is much better for protection biometrics, fingerprint , bitlocker
 
]I would assume they would have to have incriminating evidence to make you give up passwords. There should be no reason for them to search your laptop unless you have child pornography photographs found in your vehicle as an example during a border crossing or maybe drugs idk . Just get windows 10 and have multi factor authentication i.e. for everything and use a SSD that has built in AES 256 encryption
done son


http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/news-events/press-releases/detail?newsId=4044

in the next few years every hard ocp user should be encrypting with AES 256 because by then samsung ssds will come standard with this technology. Not to mention windows 10 is much better for protection biometrics, fingerprint , bitlocker
 
oh forgot to mention no one is safe from the NSA
but i highly doubt they would release decryption methods i.e AES 256 to local cops or for some cases even the FBI unless you are a suspected terrorist .
 
Conker said:
No one is truly free in this country anymore. All these laws are there to control peoples freedoms. To allow the government to do what ever it wants. People in power can use those powers for good or for evil. When the government is corrupt then you know what those positions of power are used for. The power of people doesn't exist today. Too many people are asleep. Oblivious to the fact they have no rights and no constitution anymore. :cool:
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QFT.

"When we were colonists................"
Judge Andrew Napolitano Natural Rights and The Patriot Act part 1 of 3, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1P53wMbnsw
 
username00 said:
They would be because guns is how's they solved problems back in the day. The government is a piece of shit on many levels but going about that route is a good way to start another civil war with many of our own children and women dying in their own homes. I'm not ready for that. Not until after my life. I want to be able to live a normal life without some dumbass hicks making the world into a place where I have to fear for my life everytime I open my front door. This life isn't THAT shitty, and if it is, you are doing something wrong. Lay off the action movies, zombie movies, and crime shows and learn to separate reality from fiction. The government has been spying on us since before most of us were born, theyve just adapted to the times and started using technology to do it.
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If you're okay with living like that, move to the UK.

That type of life isn't what America stands for.
 
splattered said:
Can you explain to me, a fellow dumbass hippy in this country, what the fuck is going on? That is, if you are capable of speaking down to my level, oh superior omnipotent one.
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Your rights are being taken away from you in the name of "safety" and "security."

That is a bullshit excuse. In America you use to have the right to defend yourself, thus not needing the government to do it for you. But now they're taking away guns and saying "you need us!" and dumbasses are buying into it.

If that is the kind of life you want to live, move to the UK or Singapore.
 
OEM said:
Your rights are being taken away from you in the name of "safety" and "security."

That is a bullshit excuse. In America you use to have the right to defend yourself, thus not needing the government to do it for you. But now they're taking away guns and saying "you need us!" and dumbasses are buying into it.

If that is the kind of life you want to live, move to the UK or Singapore.
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Speaking as someone who has lived in the US, the UK and Singapore, don't try and pretend that they're some sort of Orwellian nightmare vision of the future when the UK is just the US with knives and illegal guns instead of legal ones, and Singapore is a safe, clean, prosperous city currently educating the future generations of the Chinese who are currently buying up America, and neither are quite so fucked up that their citizens require a constitutional right to arm themselves in the first place. But keep polishing your precious guns, which have done nothing to protect you from the corporations and big industry lobbyists which control your country, and keep relying on Fox News for your world view.
 
Litfod said:
But keep polishing your precious guns, which have done nothing to protect you from the corporations and big industry lobbyists which control your country...
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The US sells guns to Singapore, helps train their military, and patrols their waters for them. We're like their big brother! However I don't think our personal guns were ever meant to protect us from big corporations or lobbying in the first place :p. I also find it funny that you think big corporations (international corporations) don't have the same exact influence in every other country around the world including every single one you mentioned. It's almost :rolleyes: like.

and neither are quite so fucked up that their citizens require a constitutional right to arm themselves in the first place.
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We sir, consider that fucked up way, a god damn natural right! (burps)


and keep relying on Fox News for your world view.
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Faux News, get it right.
 
Litfod said:
Speaking as someone who has lived in the US, the UK and Singapore, don't try and pretend that they're some sort of Orwellian nightmare vision of the future when the UK is just the US with knives and illegal guns instead of legal ones, and Singapore is a safe, clean, prosperous city currently educating the future generations of the Chinese who are currently buying up America, and neither are quite so fucked up that their citizens require a constitutional right to arm themselves in the first place. But keep polishing your precious guns, which have done nothing to protect you from the corporations and big industry lobbyists which control your country, and keep relying on Fox News for your world view.
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I've been to Singapore, and there were places that I didn't want to be at night.

I have a right to own my guns... whether or not they protect me from the twats ruining this country in corporations.

Fox News is about as reliable as Cartoon Network when it comes to News. Don't assume that because someone is a fiscal conservative who believes in their constitutional right to own a firearm means they're a right wing nut job who things Glenn Beck or any other Fox News twat is a savior and patriot. They've done just as much to harm this country as Obama or any corporation.
 
lcpiper said:
A laptop could be a threat, but threats are not the only issue at hand. Companies must pay taxes to move IP into or out of the country and some forms of encryption are not permitted for export, money laundering and other criminal activities to include kiddie porn are also illegal articles that would be of concern at a border crossing.

just saying, it's not all about Terrorism and those kinds of threats.
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My point was not about laptops being a threat or not. It was about the double standards applied to border security. The last I checked human trafficking is illegal, yet it goes on constantly at the southern border and those charged with enforcing the law at the highest levels have ordered the officers at the border to not enforce it. Yet... you cross the border from Canada and they'll take your laptop, phone, or whatever because it might be a concern. I just think the same standards applied at the northern border should be applied at the southern border.
 
OEM said:
If you're okay with living like that, move to the UK.

That type of life isn't what America stands for.
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LMAO you second ammendment extremists are all the same. So you are telling me, that you are perfectly OK with accepting responsibility for killing many of our own innocent Americans? There will be death of the innocent, make no mistake. Most second ammendment nuts also seem to be in the low income bracket, and they won't even accept financial responsibility for their actions, (constant accounts in collections claiming they don't owe anyone shit (I know people like this personally)) do you think they'll admit they are the reason my family is dead? (hypothetical at this point at least.)

This is nothing but an immature, over-emotional, drama queen style of life, blowing everything out of proportion. I knew girls in high school and middle school who were less emotional and more down to earth and many of our fellow gun advocates.

Furthermore, I feel like not as an American, but as a person we should all have the right to be able to expect a reasonable amount of safety in our neighborhoods, homes, and supermarkets. What you are begging the country to do, is overthrow the government, violently, with guns and ammunition, in 2015. I don't think you are thinking this through. To top it off, we have countries that already don't like us and have nuclear abilities (Russia, North Korea). So now we all hate our government, live in an anarchist-style society during the government collapse, the remainder of our government doesn't want to have anything to do with "the people" anymore and actually provoke a nuclear war on America.

There are a million ways this can go but they all end up with lots of dead innocent people. Keep your fucking trigger fingers to yourselves and let me live my life just as my dad did during the 60's with Watergate in the Nixon era. Life goes on. It's what you make of it. If you want your life to be a violent drama filled piece of shit, then fine. But don't involve me in it.
 
Overthrowing/destroying the current paradigm is a pretty bad idea. I'm not 100% against violence against the state per se, but that's just going to harm a lot of innocent people. It also gives the state more reasons to enact even more draconian laws, and I think will eventually get them closer to where they want to be. Violence (or rather self-defense) has it's place, but I think it's the wrong solution.

We need to DIVEST in the current system, and INVEST in the systems you want to support. Invest in a garden, invest in your local community, invest in local currencies, etc. Divest from the state as much as possible, know your rights as a sovereign human being, and fight for them. Death by a thousand (rather a billion) papercuts. That's the way forward. Things like bitcoin aren't the solution, but they're part of a solution.

I'm setting up a hugelkultur raised garden, as well as part of a local community that's trying to find open land to develop a food forest. I am off and on working with some guys locally to create a local currency, as well as stop supporting, as much as possible, big corporations. I wish I had more time to commit to this, but working 45hrs/week, + a long distance relationship, and a house to take care of takes a lot of time away as it is.

This shut up and take it, it could be worst or work within the broken system or put up arms dichotomy has to stop. Neither are, I believe, the solution. There isn't a solution, t here are a thousand solutions, and we need to stop fighting and start doing. /rant
 
username00 said:
Long rant insulting anybody that doesn't share your personal uninformed views over and over and over again...
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It's almost like you think it's the legal gun owners committing all the crimes in the US. It's almost like you think if all guns were made illegal today that the bad guys would go "oh we shouldn't have had them before, but now, it's illegal for everyone, lets throw them away".


It's almost like you don't have a clue what the fuck you're talking about.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Not to stir up a hornets nest... but I'll do it anyways.

Article III of the Constitution is what gives the US Supreme Court it's power, and SCOTUS ruled that checkpoint searches at international borders did not violate the 4th amendment
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lcpiper said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
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MrCaffeineX said:
Sadly, due process as envisioned in the Constitution is an antiquated notion that bears little resemblance to what is in effect today. Civil asset forfeiture, the ability of police to obtain a search warrant with little to no probable cause or worse, using blatantly false evidence, and of course shoot first, ask questions later arrest procedures, give law enforcement significantly more authority than was ever conceived at the time that the Constitution was ratified.
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I am not referring to the searches, I am referring to the cases in which the electronic devices have been taken off-site to a digital forensic specialist and the devices are never returned. My digital forensic professor, who is Romanian, told us of a time he was returning from the 2nd International ICST Conference on Digital Forensics & Cyber Crime in Abu Dhabi, UAE. He was detained, laptop, 2 smartphones and his camera were sent to an off-site digital forensics lab. Three weeks later he received his laptop (which was inoperable and hard drive wiped), his camera and one of his smartphones. The other smartphone was never returned.
 
continuation due to lack of edit feature...

He was deprived of his smartphone (property) without due process.
 
username00 said:
LMAO you second ammendment extremists are all the same. So you are telling me, that you are perfectly OK with accepting responsibility for killing many of our own innocent Americans? There will be death of the innocent, make no mistake. Most second ammendment nuts also seem to be in the low income bracket, and they won't even accept financial responsibility for their actions, (constant accounts in collections claiming they don't owe anyone shit (I know people like this personally)) do you think they'll admit they are the reason my family is dead? (hypothetical at this point at least.)

This is nothing but an immature, over-emotional, drama queen style of life, blowing everything out of proportion. I knew girls in high school and middle school who were less emotional and more down to earth and many of our fellow gun advocates.

Furthermore, I feel like not as an American, but as a person we should all have the right to be able to expect a reasonable amount of safety in our neighborhoods, homes, and supermarkets. What you are begging the country to do, is overthrow the government, violently, with guns and ammunition, in 2015. I don't think you are thinking this through. To top it off, we have countries that already don't like us and have nuclear abilities (Russia, North Korea). So now we all hate our government, live in an anarchist-style society during the government collapse, the remainder of our government doesn't want to have anything to do with "the people" anymore and actually provoke a nuclear war on America.

There are a million ways this can go but they all end up with lots of dead innocent people. Keep your fucking trigger fingers to yourselves and let me live my life just as my dad did during the 60's with Watergate in the Nixon era. Life goes on. It's what you make of it. If you want your life to be a violent drama filled piece of shit, then fine. But don't involve me in it.
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Show me where I said overthrow the government...much less violently.

People that are anti-gun are mostly anti-gun because they don't want the responsibility of having to do what it takes to protect innocents from bad guys. If a bad guy walks into a store in a city where everyone is legally allowed to carry a concealed firearm, and lives in a place where people actually exercise their right, he is going to be far less likely to try anything stupid. But, if he is in a gun free zone, only he, the criminal have fire arms.

I conceal carry and I've never drawn my weapon, pointed, or shot anyone, and you would have no idea standing behind me in line that I was armed.

You don't want the responsibility of having to act in a shitty situation, so if you don't have a firearm you won't feel compelled to.
 
jojo69 said:
saw a guy at the supermarket yesterday wit a T shirt that said "the founding fathers would already be shooting"

I thought that was pretty bold to wear in public
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It's true though. They fought over taxes. We have way more oppressive taxation than they had. We also have a government that is out of control. We just have a nation of people that don't care as long as they get their american idol.
 
Lebowski said:
It's true though. They fought over taxes. We have way more oppressive taxation than they had. We also have a government that is out of control. We just have a nation of people that don't care as long as they get their american idol.
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The ones that would be doing the revolution-ing are the ones that do care. Right now they're wanting to be good, law-abiding citizens that are free to just raise their families, pursue their dreams, and otherwise be left alone. They haven't started a revolution because they're still clinging to the hope that things can get better, and that solutions can be found within the system. They don't want the chaos and bloodshed that would result from a violent clash with the government or anyone else.

Typically any kind of civil rights uprising or revolutionary activity that's not the result of political ideology is a result of some kind of acute and massive injury that incenses people to a kind of anger that doesn't let go. It would take the government doing something very, very bad, like rounding people up and shooting them or imprisoning them en masse that gets a lot of press coverage to start something like that. On a smaller scale, the protests over police shootings of black citizens show this kind of anger in action, but not to the point of a full-out armed revolt. I would say that it's a credit to (most) people for not resorting to violence as their first recourse for perceived injustices. Sure, there's trouble makers out there that want to riot just to riot, and people that have shot police officers just to shoot police officers and then hide in the crowd. You always have opportunistic scumbags anywhere, but for the most part, things are staying peaceful. A civil war would not be good for anyone. The law abiding know it. The government knows it. Hopefully the fear of that horror will outweigh anyone's crooked ambitions for a long time to come.
 
This week on [H] forums: a thread about the government searching our laptops leads to discussion about violent overthrow of the US government.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yeah but technically I'm not crossing the border, I never left it then they can't search my shit :)
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Yeah, about that:

In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority in the course of individual stops, resulting in violations of the constitutional rights of innocent people. These problems are compounded by inadequate training for Border Patrol agents, a lack of oversight by CBP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and the consistent failure of CBP to hold agents accountable for abuse. Thus, although the 100-mile border zone is not literally "Constitution free," the U.S. government frequently acts like it is.
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and

For example, Border Patrol, according to news reports, operates approximately 170 interior checkpoints throughout the country (the actual number in operation at any given time is not publicly known). The ACLU believes that these checkpoints amount to dragnet, suspicionless stops that cannot be reconciled with Fourth Amendment protections. The Supreme Court has upheld the use of immigration checkpoints, but only insofar as the stops consist only of a brief and limited inquiry into residence status. Checkpoints cannot be primarily used for drug-search or general law enforcement efforts. In practice, however, Border Patrol agents often do not limit themselves to brief immigration inquiries and regularly conduct criminal investigations and illegal searches at checkpoints. The Border Patrol also frequently pulls over motorists in "roving patrol" stops, often without any suspicion that an immigration violation has occurred.
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From: https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
 
NeghVar said:
The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides:

Nor shall any person . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law . . .
Section One of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides:

Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law . . . .
What law immunizes the border patrol from these parts of the Constitution?
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You haven't legally entered the country until you pass through the checkpoint.
 
illram said:
This week on [H] forums: a thread about the government searching our laptops leads to discussion about violent overthrow of the US government.
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That's a shame. I'm embarrassed for us as a country. The Tax & Fees topics should also be going there, too.
 
username00 said:
LMAO you second ammendment extremists are all the same. So you are telling me, that you are perfectly OK with accepting responsibility for killing many of our own innocent Americans? There will be death of the innocent, make no mistake. Most second ammendment nuts also seem to be in the low income bracket, and they won't even accept financial responsibility for their actions, (constant accounts in collections claiming they don't owe anyone shit (I know people like this personally)) do you think they'll admit they are the reason my family is dead? (hypothetical at this point at least.)

This is nothing but an immature, over-emotional, drama queen style of life, blowing everything out of proportion. I knew girls in high school and middle school who were less emotional and more down to earth and many of our fellow gun advocates.

Furthermore, I feel like not as an American, but as a person we should all have the right to be able to expect a reasonable amount of safety in our neighborhoods, homes, and supermarkets. What you are begging the country to do, is overthrow the government, violently, with guns and ammunition, in 2015. I don't think you are thinking this through. To top it off, we have countries that already don't like us and have nuclear abilities (Russia, North Korea). So now we all hate our government, live in an anarchist-style society during the government collapse, the remainder of our government doesn't want to have anything to do with "the people" anymore and actually provoke a nuclear war on America.

There are a million ways this can go but they all end up with lots of dead innocent people. Keep your fucking trigger fingers to yourselves and let me live my life just as my dad did during the 60's with Watergate in the Nixon era. Life goes on. It's what you make of it. If you want your life to be a violent drama filled piece of shit, then fine. But don't involve me in it.
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You're a little on the extreme side yourself dude. People have a right to own firearms, simple as that. I have actually had to use mine in the defense of my family from a knife wielding lunatic. I guess we should ban knives too.
 
Red Squirrel said:
Pretty much. Maybe not jail, but a long dragged out court session until you give in and give them the password. Though I imagine it would lead to jail. "Obstructing with evidence" or something like that would probably be the clause.
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Can't recall the guy's name, but there's someone in jail right now for that. He refused to give the password to decrypt his data, so the judge held him in contempt. He gets to sit in a nice jail cell until he changes his mind.

Fun factoid: There's no limit to contempt. No trial, no way to get another judge to look at your case, no nothing. Judge says go to jail, you go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. There is no higher authority than a judge in his own court room.
 
username00 said:
This is nothing but an immature, over-emotional, drama queen style of life, blowing everything out of proportion.
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Isn't that what you're doing here? Most gun owners are law-abiding and go to great lengths to not put anyone in unnecessary danger. I think you've had a bad experience with a minority of irresponsible individuals, and you're judging the whole based on a very poor sample.

Furthermore, I feel like not as an American, but as a person we should all have the right to be able to expect a reasonable amount of safety in our neighborhoods, homes, and supermarkets.
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No argument from me there, but try telling that to the criminals when they decide to burglarize, assault, rape, and murder. Sit down and have a polite conversation with them about how they're violating your right to have a safe and worry-free life. I do not think you'll change their minds that way.

Keep your fucking trigger fingers to yourselves and let me live my life just as my dad did during the 60's with Watergate in the Nixon era.
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You can't turn back the clock and live in the past. The law abiding are not a threat to you. Take guns away and criminals will use bats, machetes, knives, axes, hammers, bare hands... anything they can to commit crimes. This is how it has gone in the UK and Australia. Banning guns won't stop crime and won't make you safer. Yes, I know about the "Bubba Factor", but take the guns away and it'll be pickup trucks and 4-wheelers and home-brewed fireworks accidents. Stupid is stupid, and stupid people will find a way to hurt themselves and others. The majority of law-abiding people shouldn't be punished for the stupidity of a few.

Don't get me wrong. I would love it if people could live in harmony and nobody would ever need a weapon ever again. I really do. That's not the world we live in though, and disarming the good people won't stop the bad people. It will only create more victims. Is that what you really want?
 
The Government Can Download Everything Off Your Computer At Border Crossings
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Good luck with that. My travel laptop has no Hard Dive and uses live CDs. They can copy all of the nothing they want, lol. Bunch of criminal fucks that they are.
 
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