The 285k is embarrassing

jfreund said:
The articles I've seen on "200S boost" claim it's a free performance boost for Arrow Lake owners, but the benches compare 220S with DDR5 8000 vs. stock with DDR5 6400. To know if it's really "free performance", it has to be tested with the same RAM. How much of the boost is strictly from the CPU, and how much is from faster RAM? Because if users who already have Arrow Lake have to buy new RAM to get the performance boost, then it's not "free".
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Its kind of along the same lines.

A difference in 10 cas can translate up to a 100 fps difference.

So I want to see a real benchmark with the same speed of ram. I don't care if they both don't perform well at the common speed, because the more struggles reveals the weak points anyways.
 
jfreund said:
The articles I've seen on "200S boost" claim it's a free performance boost for Arrow Lake owners, but the benches compare 220S with DDR5 8000 vs. stock with DDR5 6400. To know if it's really "free performance", it has to be tested with the same RAM. How much of the boost is strictly from the CPU, and how much is from faster RAM? Because if users who already have Arrow Lake have to buy new RAM to get the performance boost, then it's not "free".
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PC Gamer's test shows DDR5 8000 without 200S Boost, with two different BIOS versions. And then with 200S Boost.

https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/pr...t-is-simple-you-should-enable-it-immediately/
 
cyberblogger said:
So I want to see a real benchmark with the same speed of ram. I don't care if they both don't perform well at the common speed, because the more struggles reveals the weak points anyways.
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I could be a little bit slow or english being too much of a second language.

Do you want real benchmark with the same speed of ram if you do not care about common speed performance ?

cyberblogger said:
A difference in 10 cas
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does CAS matter or only CAS / frequency is of any interest ? (which was about the same in the example)
 
jfreund said:
The articles I've seen on "200S boost" claim it's a free performance boost for Arrow Lake owners, but the benches compare 220S with DDR5 8000 vs. stock with DDR5 6400. To know if it's really "free performance", it has to be tested with the same RAM. How much of the boost is strictly from the CPU, and how much is from faster RAM? Because if users who already have Arrow Lake have to buy new RAM to get the performance boost, then it's not "free".
Click to expand...

chameleoneel said:
PC Gamer's test shows DDR5 8000 without 200S Boost, with two different BIOS versions. And then with 200S Boost.

https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/pr...t-is-simple-you-should-enable-it-immediately/
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double post but.....Tom's Hardware tests 200S Boost with 6400, 7200, and 8000

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...mory-overclocking-now-covered-by-the-warranty
 
LukeTbk said:
I could be a little bit slow or english being too much of a second language.

Do you want real benchmark with the same speed of ram if you do not care about common speed performance ?


does CAS matter or only CAS / frequency is of any interest ? (which was about the same in the example)
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the winner of the comparison would show in performance and temperature dissipation. Then you speed it up. But on the subject of CAS its more of an logarithmic exponent than a flat ratio effect so small changes in CAS tremendously effect the overall data throughput.
 
cyberblogger said:
flat ratio effect so small changes in CAS tremendously effect the overall data throughput.
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CAS is counted in amount of clock cycle, not in time, the number alone is meaningless, change in CAS / frequency can have effect, in the example you gave it was pretty much the same latency too ( again I can be slow)
 
Per toms article...."For instance, we measured a sub-1% increase in performance when using higher fabric clocks with the DDR5-6400"

I have ddr6400 memory. I'll just stay away from this tweak and keep using the asus oc profile.
 
jarablue said:
Per toms article...."For instance, we measured a sub-1% increase in performance when using higher fabric clocks with the DDR5-6400"

I have ddr6400 memory. I'll just stay away from this tweak and keep using the asus oc profile.
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I don't know about the Tom's, they don't talk nor act nor are the same people I worked with 26 years ago when we broke the 5Ghz barrier together on a Pentium iV, and those guys would not say nonsense like that.
Just saying.

Though, the guy is saying the same thing, but without giving you the information about CAS. Which the original crew would do but those new guys appear to keep things as enigmas.
 
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talon95 said:
I thought this review was more interesting since the 265k is so cheap now.

https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Core...als/Test-Gaming-Benchmark-vs-9800X3D-1471332/
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That is interesting, and it does confirm they are slightly overclocking a bus. The real question is if you can control the Arrow lake boost. What I need to do to further investigate this, is to get one of these cpus and dicect it. and A/B disabling this boost on the hardware level and try different overclocking schemes. Problem with generically overclocking a section of the cpu and releasing it is its going to be slightly unpredictable results depending on the motherboard pcb layout and the ram used.

So that is the reason clocking memory high doesn't give the person the same results as it did before on other platforms. But this is a clue that changes in timing and their ratios is much more paramount. So the correct overclocking approach is to underclock for the best memory interleave with the cpu. then turn the memory and bus frequencies up in small intervals until the chip set starts to error, then back it down slightly.

Another factor these people haven't compared, is running benchmarks in Linux since windows chipset drivers are time delayed while Linux is not. Also Non-AHCI as in IDE mode so that HHD controller process that most the time its not needed is not loaded (because the boot drive is most likely SSD which cant use any of the features of ACHI besides hot swapping which you don't do on a single system drive setup). But I think they might chose the stock windows so that there is a repeatable baseline as some users are not going to change anything under the hood or use any software overclocking utility.
 
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talon95 said:
I thought this review was more interesting since the 265k is so cheap now.

https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Core...als/Test-Gaming-Benchmark-vs-9800X3D-1471332/
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Ah, it is an interesting article. Especially because just last night, I did a pretty deep dive on tuning my own 265K. It was sort of a final, deep look at tuning this thing. As I had already played around quite a bit, in smaller chunks. And learned a lot about tuning Arrow Lake and also about my own specific 265K.

I do need to call out a couple of things about the article, however.

1. Those numbers are kinda weird. 4-5 fps average over a few games after core overclocks, seems low for 720p.

2. Again, the numbers are kind of weird. I don't think I've seen a stock 265K compared so favorably in gaming, to a 9700X. Yes, even though they are using JDEC speeds.

--------------------------

My general thoughts based on my own tuning and from the article on face value: Generally speaking, overclocking the CPU cores is not worth it. You could end up nearly doubling the power use. Which is noticeable in noise and room temperature.
And you do easily add about 30 - 40 watts on average in gaming, when trying to max out both P-cores and E-cores. For IMO, not enough gain to be worth the extra noise, heat, etc.

Big picture, though: Arrow Lake can improve quite a bit. But, it can take a lot of time tuning. And extra money on super fast RAM. Which hurts the otherwise cool new $300 price of the 265K. And you could end up with a lot of extra power and heat.
And don't we forget, Ryzen can be tuned up a lot, too. Actually, Hardware Unboxed recently showed that Zen 5 gaming performance can also benefit quite a bit from DDR5 8000! Even though they actually downplay it, in their ending comments.

View: https://youtu.be/Fr7Bfr-wPYw?si=BA52uNJUHlTY4gvE

And the big gap in this pcgameshardware.de article Which heavily skews the optics on this whole thing: they don't show any games where Arrow Lake is particularly weak. The average performance can be brought down a fair amount, as more games are tested. There are several reviews out there which show some pretty middling results in some titles not often benchmarked.
It actually would have been very interesting to see if these tweaks help any of these poor performing games.

In my own testing, there is nothing Arrow Lake can do, to improve Final Fantasy 14 benchmark performance.

Elden Ring isn't as bad as FF14. But, Arrow Lake is still relatively poor in Elden Ring. However, All of the tweaks do help Elden Ring's performance quite a bit. Even the core overclocks can gain me 10 - 15 fps while running around at 1080p or 1440P with a DLSS mod. And that's FPS on top of the extra performance from 200S Boost and RAM tweaks. And that's with a 4070 TI Super. So in theory, I don't even have a ton of headroom, like a 4090 or 5090 test. So, it seems like Elden Ring has a lot of potential benefits. Even though it starts out relatively poor for Arrow Lake.
That said, when I actually play Elden Ring for real: I have Ray Tracing maxed out, use DLSS Quality, and cap the framerate at like 80fps.

check out this post to see me break down my personal 265K tuning experience, even more:
https://hardforum.com/threads/arrow-lake-2024-and-beyond.2032442/page-14#post-1046114153

cyberblogger said:
The real question is if you can control the Arrow lake boost.
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The answer is in the article. But, the way it is written (and translated), it assumes you know some things about Arrow Lake.
 
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