Soundcard vs Receiver

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baco80

Weaksauce
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Jan 22, 2010
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I'm going to get a 2.1 for the pc with this monitors,

ESI nEar08 eXperience

At first, I thought on buying a decent soundcar, since I just have the onboard builtin on pc. So I was considering ASUS Xonar Essence ST, but someone suggested me for that price to go for a receiver.

Well, I've been looking ar onkyo, and dont know what to go for. Should I go for stereo receiver/amplifier, or for a/v receiver. Since I'm just searching quality 2.1, dont know if going for multichannel receiver will be te way to squeeze the money. Bear in mind I dont need too much watage, but rather crystal clearest and finest sound quality. Its just a pc setup but Im searching quality soun output, thats why I go for audio monitor.

But dont know what to do about pick up the soundcard, or for little more, choose the receiver; and if the last, what should I go, stereo I guess, so I think more logical to put the money on what ai'm going to use, not the 5.1.

But Im looking and dont find neither stereo receiver/amplifier to have spdif input to output the digital audio from onboard...

Heres the picture (dont care about headphone amplifying),

ASUS Xonar Essence ST $189
or
ESI Juli@ $149

VS.

Onkyo A-9155 $300
Onkyo TX-8255 $330
Onkyo TX-SR307 $385

Any help would be appreciate..
 
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If you buy a receiver, the only ones to buy are surround receivers. The stereo ones aren't cheaper, and they aren't any better at stereo. But if you don't care about tons of power then the T-amp is a great choice.
 
Dont know what to go for. I was searching a better value replacement for the price of one of those soundcards. I guess what the soundcards are supposed to do, is mainly process and output crystal clear sound quality, rather than amplifying on a lesser degree.

this amplifiers seems more oriented to just the amplifying task, out of the onboard builtin motherboard sound device, which would process the signal in this case. then the amplifier would just amplify that signal. But what I'm looking for is a soundcard replacement alternative, for around that price, so it will do same task with better performance, if possible.
 
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It makes no sense to get a better sound card, if your amplifier and speakers are the limiting factor. The average onboard sound these days will have very good output signal.

And unless you have a tube SET amp, a digital amplifier like the T-Amp, or a very expensive solid state amp, its the amplification stage that will be limiting your sound system. The T-Amp is the one to get, because its ridiculously cheap ($30 bucks).

Speakers are your other big problem. Most computer speakers are severely compromised designs, for space and cost reasons. I don't know what to suggest for buying speakers, I build my own. If you're buying, take your T-Amp with you to a store with your mp3 player, and test them out on the spot, with high quality recordings that you know well.
 
mrybczyn said:
And unless you have a tube SET amp, a digital amplifier like the T-Amp, or a very expensive solid state amp, its the amplification stage that will be limiting your sound system.
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Yeah. Uh. No. The only things important in an amplifier that relate to sound quality are power and SNR. Basically any amp on the commercial market has low enough distortion and other such factors that they will sound the same, except that some have better SNR than others. More evident with headphones.
 
dandragonrage said:
Yeah. Uh. No. The only things important in an amplifier that relate to sound quality are power and SNR. Basically any amp on the commercial market has low enough distortion and other such factors that they will sound the same, except that some have better SNR than others. More evident with headphones.
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Depends on the speakers. Different speakers present different loads to the amplifier. Not just in terms of the ohm value, but in terms of phase. Impedance of speakers is a complex (in the numerical sense of complex numbers) thing with impedance and phase being related and varying with frequency. Speakers that get wacky with that can sound bad on amps that aren't designed to handle tough loads.

Unfortunately, it can be a little hard to find out since manufacturers never publish impedance graphs, and interpreting them is also difficult. Generally speaking most reasonably priced mass market speakers are fairly easy to drive, but not always.

baco80: Those speakers you linked to need no amplifier or receiver. They are active monitors meaning they have internal amplification and you hook them right to your soundcard. If you want a receiver that's fine, but then I'd probalby look at getting non-amplified speakers.
 
OK, but the question is:

Aside from amplifying (since speakers are autoamplified), can I get any benefit in sound quality with any other soundcard like Xonar Essence ST, Juli@, X-Fi, or receivers or anything.. over my actual motherboard built-in sound device (Realtek 7.1 CH HD Audio CODEC)?
 
baco80 said:
OK, but the question is:

Aside from amplifying (since speakers are autoamplified), can I get any benefit in sound quality with any other soundcard like Xonar Essence ST, Juli@, X-Fi, or receivers or anything.. over my actual motherboard built-in sound device (Realtek 7.1 CH HD Audio CODEC)?
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No way to know for sure, the speaker manufacturer doesn't really list a lot of specs for that speaker, but it looks potentially decent. Bi-amplification is a good sign for a 2-way monitor. Depending on how good those internal amps are.

In general, most HD Audio onboard sound cards are fine, and you won't notice a "better" sound from the $200 sound cards. Maybe a "different" sound, if they do some DSP.

If anything, both the onboard and the PCI cards will be limited by the generally noisy RF environment inside your PC case, so if you hear hiss, try a USB sound device. This gets the DAC out of the range of most of the interference.
 
So, what is the purpose of these $150-200 soundcards over the onboard sound devices... just amplification? So in case of autoamplified speakers, theres no reason to get one of these when looking to achieve the best of the speakers?
 
baco80 said:
OK, but the question is:

Aside from amplifying (since speakers are autoamplified), can I get any benefit in sound quality with any other soundcard like Xonar Essence ST, Juli@, X-Fi, or receivers or anything.. over my actual motherboard built-in sound device (Realtek 7.1 CH HD Audio CODEC)?
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Sure. One thing you can get is better sound quality. Better soundcards often have better electronics (like DACs). Now will you notice? Dunno, depends on a lot of things, but that is an advantage.

Another is support for things like ASIO or other low latency pro audio standards. You probably don't care about this, but there you go.

In the case of X-Fis there is also support for true hardware acceleration of games. If you are a gamer, this can be quite useful.
 
baco80 said:
So, what is the purpose of these $150-200 soundcards over the onboard sound devices... just amplification? So in case of autoamplified speakers, theres no reason to get one of these when looking to achieve the best of the speakers?
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mm, inputs and processing features

consider that all of these multimedia/gaming cards you're looking at use DSPs that are at youngest, 5 years old; some closer to 10

back in the day, h/w accelerated audio was all the rage, today not so much

there are still some features/abilities that onboard hasn't quite gotten yet, but its moving ferociously (for example even two years ago, DDL on a motherboard was nearly unheard of, today, not all that rare)

that leaves input/output features, most of the boards you're looking at offer better inputs (like mic preamps) than onboard solutions, better AtoD chips, and better drivers for actually dealing with those inputs; for some users this actually matters (for the average user, it does not)

some new trends with cards on the market include "built in headphone amps" (As opposed to relying on a breakout box or front bay) and HDMI features, neither of which onboard solutions have approached (yet?); again, the vast majority of users do not need or use these features (the headphone amps are usually unnecessary, if the device is able to meet IEC standards and hit the 150ohm output, it'll do just fine with the vast majority of headphones on the market)

in your case, a receiver would be worthless, you have active speakers, so what would be the point in introducing another power amplifier? it'll sit idle
if you want an AM/FM radio unit, Sony has a GREAT HD radio component that costs around $100

a soundcard shouldn't be required, unless you want some of the aforementioned features (in your case, inputs, or HDMI processing) if neither of those are an issue, skip it; if your onboard solution is awful (as in, it bleeds noise out) then look at some sort of fix, which may or may not include a replacement audio device

and a major WTFBBQ to this thread turning into "get tubes for everything you need tubes" :confused:
 
The thread hasn't turned into a tubes all tubes, i mentioned it as one of the three possible "good amplifier" options. And recommended a place to get a good class-D amp for cheap. Another guy recommended a place to get a tube amp. There's some over-reactions following that.

Tubes, especially single ended triode tube (SET) amps, are very well regarded in music amplification. Look around diyaudio.com, for example.

Anyhow, to the OP: you're probably fine with your onboard audio for your bi-amped monitors. Sound cards will not make it noticeably better.
 
mrybczyn said:
The thread hasn't turned into a tubes all tubes, i mentioned it as one of the three possible "good amplifier" options. And recommended a place to get a good class-D amp for cheap. Another guy recommended a place to get a tube amp. There's some over-reactions following that.

Tubes, especially single ended triode tube (SET) amps, are very well regarded in music amplification. Look around diyaudio.com, for example.

Anyhow, to the OP: you're probably fine with your onboard audio for your bi-amped monitors. Sound cards will not make it noticeably better.
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yes <10% efficiency and terrible THD/SNR numbers are high quality
honestly, you can throw as much audiophile nonsense at me as you want, until it can measure where it needs to for the power output it should have for the money, I'm not all too concerned
 
There have only been a few cases I've seen in which TUBE-amps have been justified, and that was because the measurements justified their use.

1% THD is a good target for the entire system, but that's atrocious at just the amplifier. Sure - people seem to like tubes for their "warmth" - which is likely a byproduct imparted by an even-order distortion profile, but I'd rather have my audio unmolested.

An interesting note in defense of tubes: I reviewed a set of tests which showed total system distortion of a Tube setup vs a Solid State setup of comparable cost. The solid state amplifier showed lower distortion by itself, but when the speaker's output was measured, the Tube setup was lower.

This could be simply because loudspeakers are actually current driven, whereas our solid-state amplifiers are voltage-output. Somehow the Tube amps induced less distortion in the speaker (so this means the results could have changed depending upon the speaker - if the speaker had super low inductance via faraday shorting rings, then perhaps the solid state setup would win). Solid State transconductance current-output amplifiers do exist, but I actually don't know of any really good designs. I think Pass Labs may have experimented with it, but I wasn't convinced they had something I wanted.

I think the standard Class A/B solid-state amps, and the newer Class-D amps (hypex, and the microprocessor controlled PWM amps) make the most sense.

Edit: And efficiency IS important to many people. 1-3W is laughable unless the speakers are very efficient as well (which is rare unless you use larger proaudio-style drivers). Class A gives you all sorts of audiophile bragging rights, but over here at the [H], we'd be looking for ways to watercool those beasts to get the heat out of the room! In a car, those class D PWM amps (Icepower, hypex-style, similar only) are small and efficient, which is great for our ricey honda's alternators :)
 
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Archmage said:
There have only been a few cases I've seen in which TUBE-amps have been justified, and that was because the measurements justified their use.

1% THD is a good target for the entire system, but that's atrocious at just the amplifier. Sure - people seem to like tubes for their "warmth" - which is likely a byproduct imparted by an even-order distortion profile, but I'd rather have my audio unmolested.

An interesting note in defense of tubes: I reviewed a set of tests which showed total system distortion of a Tube setup vs a Solid State setup of comparable cost. The solid state amplifier showed lower distortion by itself, but when the speaker's output was measured, the Tube setup was lower.

This could be simply because loudspeakers are actually current driven, whereas our solid-state amplifiers are voltage-output. Somehow the Tube amps induced less distortion in the speaker (so this means the results could have changed depending upon the speaker - if the speaker had super low inductance via faraday shorting rings, then perhaps the solid state setup would win). Solid State transconductance current-output amplifiers do exist, but I actually don't know of any really good designs. I think Pass Labs may have experimented with it, but I wasn't convinced they had something I wanted.

I think the standard Class A/B solid-state amps, and the newer Class-D amps (hypex, and the microprocessor controlled PWM amps) make the most sense.

Edit: And efficiency IS important to many people. 1-3W is laughable unless the speakers are very efficient as well (which is rare unless you use larger proaudio-style drivers). Class A gives you all sorts of audiophile bragging rights, but over here at the [H], we'd be looking for ways to watercool those beasts to get the heat out of the room! In a car, those class D PWM amps (Icepower, hypex-style, similar only) are small and efficient, which is great for our ricey honda's alternators :)
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I agree with you.
I'm not saying tubes are "bad", simply inefficient compared to more modern equipment

1-3W by itself probably isn't all that unrealistic for "average" speakers (I know my speakers would be fine with 3Wpc :cool:) - its just that in this case that 3W is at or near clipping in many cases instead of 5-10% output; problematic if you ask me

oh and because you brought up monster Class A boxes:
view and behold: http://vintagetechnics.info/controlpower/sea1.htm
350Wpc full Class A with 0.003% THD @ output 20-20k (at least thats what Technics says) - ignore the minor details of weight, price, heat, you know, little things
 
mrybczyn said:
SET THD+N, check the first graph here: http://hotvalves.blogspot.com/2009/05/regulus-set-total-harmonic-distortion.html

At normal listening levels of 1-3W, very low distortion.

Efficiency is only important if you're blasting your NSync at 5000W from your riced honda civic...
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As noted, 1% isn't low for an amp. A good amp that doesn't cost too much should be below 0.1% over its normal operating range, and finding ones below 0.05% isn't that hard.

Also 1-3 watts is only fine if you listen music without a lot of dynamics. The more dynamic range your source has, the more power your amp needs. For movies and such you are often looking at a 50-100 watt amp even if you are fairly close to the speakers. The reason is that the dialogue can be 30dB or more below the sound effect peaks. Upshot is you need a good deal of amplifier headroom.

Now in the event that it was really expensive to get a power amp like that, sure maybe saying "Just compress the sound and listen at lower levels" would be fine. However, it's not expensive. Any reasonable transistor amp or receiver will get you that kind of power. As such it is reasonable to demand it so you've got it if you need it.

I'm not saying that you can't make a good tube amp. I'm saying that there's no reason to get one since you can make a BETTER transistor amp for less. For example McIntosh makes a 100 watt per channel tube amp, the MC2102. That has a nice flat frequency response, 100dB SNR, and reasonably low distortion: 0.5% or less over the entire operating range. Ok so what's the catch? Well it draws about 600 watts of power continuously and costs about $6000.

Now compare that to the Emotiva XPA-2 which is a 300 watt per channel in to 8 ohms (or 500 watt per channel in to 4 ohms) stereo transistor amp. Is has an even flatter FR, 110dB SNR, and distortion under 0.03% for its operating range, and near 0.01% for a whole lot of it. Oh, and it only costs $800.

So for about 13% of the price you get way more power, less distortion, and so on and so forth. The McIntosh amp would sound fine, in fact I doubt you'd notice the difference between the two in most systems, however you'd spend thousands more and get nothing for it.

Tube amps just make no sense for home amplification. At this point Class A/B transistor amps are the way to go for most people. They are cheap, powerful, and sound good. In the event you want real cheap, a small Class D (often called Class T) amp is a good choice too, though low power (but still more than the listed tube).
 
Sycraft said:
As noted, 1% isn't low for an amp. A good amp that doesn't cost too much should be below 0.1% over its normal operating range, and finding ones below 0.05% isn't that hard.

Also 1-3 watts is only fine if you listen music without a lot of dynamics. The more dynamic range your source has, the more power your amp needs. For movies and such you are often looking at a 50-100 watt amp even if you are fairly close to the speakers. The reason is that the dialogue can be 30dB or more below the sound effect peaks. Upshot is you need a good deal of amplifier headroom.

Now in the event that it was really expensive to get a power amp like that, sure maybe saying "Just compress the sound and listen at lower levels" would be fine. However, it's not expensive. Any reasonable transistor amp or receiver will get you that kind of power. As such it is reasonable to demand it so you've got it if you need it.

I'm not saying that you can't make a good tube amp. I'm saying that there's no reason to get one since you can make a BETTER transistor amp for less. For example McIntosh makes a 100 watt per channel tube amp, the MC2102. That has a nice flat frequency response, 100dB SNR, and reasonably low distortion: 0.5% or less over the entire operating range. Ok so what's the catch? Well it draws about 600 watts of power continuously and costs about $6000.

Now compare that to the Emotiva XPA-2 which is a 300 watt per channel in to 8 ohms (or 500 watt per channel in to 4 ohms) stereo transistor amp. Is has an even flatter FR, 110dB SNR, and distortion under 0.03% for its operating range, and near 0.01% for a whole lot of it. Oh, and it only costs $800.

So for about 13% of the price you get way more power, less distortion, and so on and so forth. The McIntosh amp would sound fine, in fact I doubt you'd notice the difference between the two in most systems, however you'd spend thousands more and get nothing for it.

Tube amps just make no sense for home amplification. At this point Class A/B transistor amps are the way to go for most people. They are cheap, powerful, and sound good. In the event you want real cheap, a small Class D (often called Class T) amp is a good choice too, though low power (but still more than the listed tube).
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those big Mc amps are ridiculous (ignoring the power draw, they also take up a ton of space and weigh quite a bit)

and Class D isn't always cheaper/smaller, its started to take off on at the higher end (Pioneer, Rotel, etc)

again, I agree with what you've posted
 
obobski said:
those big Mc amps are ridiculous (ignoring the power draw, they also take up a ton of space and weigh quite a bit)

and Class D isn't always cheaper/smaller, its started to take off on at the higher end (Pioneer, Rotel, etc)
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Ya there's plenty of high end market for it, you also find it in specialized places like subwoofer amps (BASH amps are Class-D). However that is out of range for more people looking for an amp for their computer. Class A/B is still the price/performance winner for most people. In general, the only time they'd look at class D is one of those tripath amps if they don't need much power and are on a very tight budget.

I imagine Class D will take over nearly all amplification here in the next decade, but not yet.
 
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