Sound card or external dac?

[CompletelyBrokn]

I currently use the built in audio on the OEM Dell 1366 board I have. It was noticeably less in quality than the MSI z77 board I was using until that system moved to my living room for VR. I am really wanting to get back into more high end audio, so I have been looking at sound cards and external dacs. I want to stay under $100. I have an older Denon Stereo Reciever (Home theater sized) connected to two Klipsch THX Pro media satellites and a Pioneer 8" sub. I also have a pair of Audio-Technica M50x headphones.

The Denon already has a dac in it, but no usb. I'm not sure what processing is going on, but would a sound card or external dac be a big upgrade between the pc and receiver? I don't really need a headphone amp per say since the Denon does quiet well for the headphones I've used. I use a 3.5mm to L/R RCA cable to feed audio to the reciver.

I have been looking at the Schiit Fulla 2, Fiio E10k, and Monoprice Desktop Amp for external options, and The sound blaster z, and xonar dx for internal. Of course there are a billion options it feels like, but I would appreicate some help.

Edit* I've also seen the AudioQuest Dragonfly and Fiio K1, etc. Are these worth the shot?

oh, and does the external options help/improve gaming audio as well?

 

[GotNoRice]

What "features" do you want your audio output device to have? External DACs connected via USB often represent a very minimalist audio interface. That isn't a problem as long as you don't need any special features. Sound cards are more likely to give you various features including positional audio tools (down-mixing of a surround source to stereo for headphone usage, etc).

You might see how you like the DAC in your denon. All you need is a soundcard that has digital output, then run digital into the Denon. You could also do something similar with an external DAC if you wanted. Most have other options besides just USB input, most will support regular digital input also. You could get a lower-end soundcard just for the features (Creative X-Fi Titanium cards regularly go for $20-30 on eBay for example) then run digital out from there to the DAC to get the best of both worlds.

 

[CompletelyBrokn]

The Denon I have is DRA-395. How does the DAC in that compare to these external ones?

 

[B00nie]

The Denon I have is DRA-395. How does the DAC in that compare to these external ones?

Most likely in a diminishing way. If you can afford it, upgrade your head gear and/or speakers instead.

 

[CompletelyBrokn]

My speakers are still fantastic. It's hard to beat those Klipsch Pro Medias without getting into more high-end home theater systems. I've had those for like 15+ years. The receiver could be a weak point possibly, but finding a decent price on something that does 4ohm and sub out is pretty hard. What I want is Teac model that is a DAC/headphone amp/ and speaker power together. It's $400 though.

People talk about how much better a good quality DAC upgrades their systems. I'm leaning towards this right now for a cheap try. Finished WM8740+DIR9001

 

[B00nie]

The promedias are just an entry level micro-sat + sub multimedia setup. They're not that hard to beat, trust me. For the price? Possibly. Overall? No.

 

[CompletelyBrokn]

The promedias are just an entry level micro-sat + sub multimedia setup. They're not that hard to beat, trust me. For the price? Possibly. Overall? No.

"Entry level" ? Sorry, I disagree. I could agree they are mid-ranged, but still not entry level. Especially being pushed on this Denon. It really just depends on the price category. For PC speakers, they are high end. As stand alone speakers, they are mid level or maybe even lower mid level. Still fantastic and beats nearly all other made for PC speakers.

I have had a lot of speakers, and I've had entry level PC and home theater. I have had a Yamaha entry level HTiB, and those are entry level speakers. I've had several Logitech non-thx speakers and those are entry level. I also have some Klipsch reference speakers to compare to, and yes those are much better but they are also much bigger and just the bookshelf set costs more than this whole setup. The power you push makes a difference, and I'm using higher grade wires and this Denon now. I'm sure they are performing even better now, but I don't have my old sub to compare to. It's been years.

What are you using exactly to coin them as entry level? I mean, my 980 TI SC is entry level compared to 4 way SLI 1080 Ti's, but it's far from entry level in the single card line up. It's just perspective.

 

[B00nie]

"Entry level" ? Sorry, I disagree. I could agree they are mid-ranged, but still not entry level. Especially being pushed on this Denon. It really just depends on the price category. For PC speakers, they are high end. As stand alone speakers, they are mid level or maybe even lower mid level. Still fantastic and beats nearly all other made for PC speakers.

I have had a lot of speakers, and I've had entry level PC and home theater. I have had a Yamaha entry level HTiB, and those are entry level speakers. I've had several Logitech non-thx speakers and those are entry level. I also have some Klipsch reference speakers to compare to, and yes those are much better but they are also much bigger and just the bookshelf set costs more than this whole setup. The power you push makes a difference, and I'm using higher grade wires and this Denon now. I'm sure they are performing even better now, but I don't have my old sub to compare to. It's been years.

What are you using exactly to coin them as entry level? I mean, my 980 TI SC is entry level compared to 4 way SLI 1080 Ti's, but it's far from entry level in the single card line up. It's just perspective.

Any setup that uses small satellites and a bass box and is aimed for computer use (well, actually even if it IS inteded to be hifi, Bose for example) is clearly not hifi and that makes it entry level. I consider a system with 6-10 full range hifi speakers/subs non-entry level.
Logitech for example hasn't produced anything remotely qualifying outside of entry level.

So while the promedia setup may be good bang for buck, you shouldn't have any problems upgrading from the aging setup for results that far surpass any improvement a DAC change is going to provide you.

 

[SixFootDuo]

Get the 2.1 Promedia's for $99 and get a Asus U7 Mark II for $89 or so.

 

[CompletelyBrokn]

Any setup that uses small satellites and a bass box and is aimed for computer use (well, actually even if it IS inteded to be hifi, Bose for example) is clearly not hifi and that makes it entry level. I consider a system with 6-10 full range hifi speakers/subs non-entry level.
Logitech for example hasn't produced anything remotely qualifying outside of entry level.

So while the promedia setup may be good bang for buck, you shouldn't have any problems upgrading from the aging setup for results that far surpass any improvement a DAC change is going to provide you.

Well, that makes sense then based on your reasoning. Right now I think a DAC is the best upgrade. I could be wrong, but I think it will be. when I do my zen 2 build next year I will possibly consider upgrading the sound system altogether.

It won't be more than a 2.1 system though. I don't have the room for more.

 

[B00nie]

Well, that makes sense then based on your reasoning. Right now I think a DAC is the best upgrade. I could be wrong, but I think it will be. when I do my zen 2 build next year I will possibly consider upgrading the sound system altogether.

It won't be more than a 2.1 system though. I don't have the room for more.

Of course I don't know how your current DAC/amp sounds like but my experience has been that you can often get huge improvements by small(ish) investments to speakrs but don't necessarily get much at all from sinking a lot of money to amps or dacs.

I had a friend that had a friend who owned a hi-fi store. That 'friend' sold him a new more expensive amp about once a year. He never upgraded his speakers so surprise, surprise he never was happy with the sound and just went and bought a new amp. Again. He didn't realize his problem was not the amp but the speakers - and even though I was just beginning my hifi hobby at that time I understood immediately where his true problem was. Unfortunately he didn't listen to my advice and sank literally thousands of dollars for nothing. New cd player, new tape deck, new vinyl player, multiple new amps... and little was improved.

The only time I really noticed improvement was the high-end Sony cassette deck. Some of the cassette decks were abysmal in quality.

 

[CompletelyBrokn]

In my case, I heard a distinct difference between the onboard audio from my MSI Z77 GD 65 board, and the Dell T3500 I'm using as a temp system. Same speakers and amp (receiver), but the onboard DAC was clearly..not as clear lol. I mean, the first time I turned it on and listened I wasn't expecting it, and it hit me in the face with out much the quality went down. I'm not an audiophile, but I can be picky. I've not used stupidly priced headphones, but I have used several 150-300 range headphones.

I ended up getting this since it gets rave reviews and is dirt cheap. Signstek Mini USB DAC PCM 2704 Chipset with USB Cable It was just 23.74 prime after 5% off coupon. I guess we will see what happens.

 

[RogueTadhg]

Wouldn't you get a higher chance of feedback by going with an internal sound card? Hiss or something when the volume is cranked up?

 

[B00nie]

Wouldn't you get a higher chance of feedback by going with an internal sound card? Hiss or something when the volume is cranked up?

Chance maybe. If it works then it's pretty dumb to waste money for nothing.

 

[RogueTadhg]

Chance maybe. If it works then it's pretty dumb to waste money for nothing.

Most of the "HiFi" people swear with box top dac/amps. I've never heard of anyone using a soundcard for those audio-philes with cans that have 150+ Ohms.

It might be that most of those persons tend to have more than one set of cans for different purposes. I don't know really. :\

 

[B00nie]

Most of the "HiFi" people swear with box top dac/amps. I've never heard of anyone using a soundcard for those audio-philes with cans that have 150+ Ohms.

It might be that most of those persons tend to have more than one set of cans for different purposes. I don't know really. :\

All I'm saying it pays off to test the onboard and only if it doesn't seem to be good enough, start spending money. Some motherboards have paid special attention to the integrated sound. I have a motherboard that has an integrated audio that's electrically and physically separated, shielded and has a Creative chip for example. It also has its own headphone amp.

 

[BulletDust]

When it comes to audio quality I'm one very fussy individual. I can quite easily tell the difference between the onboard audio in my Dell T5500 and my Soundblaster X-Fi, with the X-Fi sounding substantially better with a vastly improved SNR. I cannot tell the difference between the X-Fi and an external DAC, hence the reason why the external DAC isn't used with the Dell anymore.

 

[GotNoRice]

Wouldn't you get a higher chance of feedback by going with an internal sound card?

This is probably the #1 issue that confuses people in regards to Soundcards and external DACs. For a soundcard located inside a computer, there are more variables that could potentially result in interference or audible hiss. That is not a guarantee however. It is very much possible to have an internal soundcard and not have any interference or hiss as a result of being located inside the computer. The actual DAC in an external DAC isn't automatically better simply because it's located outside of the computer.

If moving from a soundcard to an external DAC helps resolve interference or hiss issues with your system, then great! If you weren't getting any interference or hiss in the first place however, then moving to an external DAC means nothing whatsoever outside of the actual hardware involved.

Some soundcards have very good DACs on them, that unless you actually are having interference or hiss issues, aren't going to be bested by anything other than a very high-end external DAC. On the flip side, there are lots of fly-by-night companies that have sprung up to take advantage of there being so many retards these days who think that a shit DAC becomes an amazing DAC simply because someone put it in an external enclosure.

I'm running an overclocked 6-core processor and 3 overclocked videocards in SLI, about as electrically noisy of an environment as you can get, yet I get no interference, background noise, or hiss whatsoever from my X-Fi Titanium HD.

Most of the "HiFi" people swear with box top dac/amps.

Most "HiFi" people don't invest in combo devices. A DAC and an AMP are two separate things that are only combined as a result of compromise and budget.

I've never heard of anyone using a soundcard for those audio-philes with cans that have 150+ Ohms.

Headphone amps can be hooked up to a Soundcard just as easily as they can be hooked up to an external DAC. If you're talking about combo devices again, you're just confusing the issue. How a soundcard directly powers headphones has nothing to do with it's DAC. Cards like the X-Fi Titanium HD can't even drive headphones from it's primary output because the output is not amplified, it's meant to be hooked up to an external amplification device.