Something we need to think about...Seriously

zim01

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From Stanford
What are GPU's and how can they help FAH? GPU's are Graphics Processing Units -- chips used in today's PC's to help speed high performance graphics, such as 3D games or 3D scientific visualization. GPUs have the possibility to perform an enormous number of Floating Point OPerations (FLOPs). However, they achieve this high performance by losing generality -- there are only certain types of calculations which would be well-suited to GPUs. However, after much work, we have been able to write a highly optimized molecular dynamics code for GPU's, achieving a 20x to 40x speed increase over comparable CPU code for certain types of calculations in FAH. This means that we will be able to make an enormous advance over what we could do only just a few years ago.

ATI here I come (Dell XPS 400) comes to mind


PS3
Now in 2006, we are looking forward to another major advance in capabilities. This advance utilizes the new Cell processor in Sony's PLAYSTATION 3 <http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3>(PS3) to achieve performance previously only possible on supercomputers. With this new technology (as well as new advances with GPUs <http://folding.stanford.edu/FAQ-highperformance.html>), we will likely be able to attain performance on the 100 gigaflop scale per computer. With about 10,000 such machines, we would be able to achieve performance on the petaflop scale <http://folding.stanford.edu/FAQ-FPI.html>. With software from Sony, the PlayStation 3 will now be able to contribute to the Folding@Home project, pushing Folding@Home a major step forward.

PS3 here I come

This really means that we as a team really need to think about how we view future hardware purchases. When a $500 - 600 purchase gets this type of power, especially
The upcoming PS3, we could collectively become our own supercomputer……not that
We're not already supercomputers

Just my thoughts.
 

tdg

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Once the price on the PS3 becomes a bit more reasonable I'll be getting one, and let it fold when not being used for gaming, which means it'd be folding 99.9% of the time.
 

OSUguy98

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Does the PS3 client allow you to pick a username and team? or is this going to be like the Google Toolbar where we'll have another aggregate team to deal with?


Keep on Folding!! For the [H]orde!!

 

zim01

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OSUguy98 said:
Does the PS3 client allow you to pick a username and team? or is this going to be like the Google Toolbar where we'll have another aggregate team to deal with?


Keep on Folding!! For the [H]orde!!


I'm not sure but would guess user name /team would be selectable
 

tdg

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I'm sure the client will be like the regular one where you can choose your username and team. The Playstation has always been good at running homebrew applications.
 

Celerator

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OSUguy98 said:
Does the PS3 client allow you to pick a username and team? or is this going to be like the Google Toolbar where we'll have another aggregate team to deal with?

I had the same question. Let's hope we can at least enter Team 33!

 

Erasmus354

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I am more interested in the ATI GPU folding than the PS3. I just dont like the idea of a (likely) hot running console folding all the time.

Hopefully the R600 will beat out the G80 in gaming, and it will work (and work well) at GPU folding. Because the next video card I get will be one of the two and I would love to put it to work folding.
 

drizzt81

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I am certainly interested in both options, though leaning more towards the GPU, since I am a PC person. I think I will wait it out and see how the two compare.
 

SmokeRngs

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I've been thinking about getting my first nVidia card when I build my next machine. However, now that it looks like the GPU folding client will actually be a reality, I may have to change my mind.

Also, I would probably be getting a top end or close to top end ATI card (if the extra money for the higher card is good price/performance sense) even though I don't actually need it for gaming at the moment. I personally don't need anything that powerful now, however I've been thinking about starting up another game or two if I have the hardware to run it. It would hurt my folding a bit but it's also an excuse for buying a top end card which will fold like there's no tomorrow. Thus, I'll actually be folding more and faster because I want to play newer games too.

 

zim01

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"The prototype, called the Cell Processor Based Blade Server, measured approximately 23 x 43 cm. Each board featured two Cell processors, two 512 Mb XDR DRAM chips and two South Bridge LSIs. The Cell processors were demonstrated running at 2.4-2.8 GHz. "We are driving the Cell processors at higher rates in the laboratory," said the engineer. "If operated at 3 GHz, Cell's theoretical performance reaches about 200 GFLOPS, which works out to about 400 GFLOPS per board," he added. IBM plans to release a rack product capable of storing seven of these boards."

and your cpu produces what?

Think Sony PS3 ......be the next one to kick Marty's butt
 

marty9876

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I was thinking is the PS3 deal takes off and does 2-3K PPD or something like that to use them in the contests maybe?
 

zim01

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marty9876 said:
I was thinking is the PS3 deal takes off and does 2-3K PPD or something like that to use them in the contests maybe?

If I'm right, say like my duan xeons 3.2 dell 1850s put out 6.4 glops
and this $600 PS3 does 100 gflops......then I've got like 15plus machines in one box, eating its way though anything in an hour or so.....your estimate on ppoints could actually be low..
plus the thing is like a notebook, so you line a zillition of them up and then look out flecom.

I've got the ATI 1900 XTX sitting here, but you still waste a machine, still nice output though..

Since IBM just announced a series of cell bladeservers, looks like the computing world is going to change

That's why I started this thread, cuz if another team picks up on this concept we could be in deep dog do0 quickly......

note to self...start PS3 team and be number 1 in a year :D
 

Celerator

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Let's make the [H]orde the place for PS3 folders.

There is no need for another "PS3 team" any more than there is a need for another team for each type of CPU. Stick with 33!

 

marty9876

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With the PPU/GPU/PS3/Cracker Jack Box new client crap coming from Stanford I'm not holding my breath for. Not to be negative, it's just been nothing new for 2 years, which is cool, just sick of getting excited about upcoming things.

/end negative

down with moose.
 

Jon855

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Marty, I've something for you now... *Hands you his own .300WM Rifle* You may need this to defend yourself. Heck this won't even be enough oh well. Enjoy.

 

RPhArrow

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Jon855 said:
Marty, I've something for you now... *Hands you his own .300WM Rifle* You may need this to defend yourself. Heck this won't even be enough oh well. Enjoy.

Hell, got another ?? I'm on Marty's side of the adobe --- in fact I'm hearing "The Good, The Bad , & The Ugly" in my head right now :cool:

 

zim01

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Celerator said:
Let's make the [H]orde the place for PS3 folders.

There is no need for another "PS3 team" any more than there is a need for another team for each type of CPU. Stick with 33!


just kidding about another team :rolleyes:
 

DDogbert

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I'm rethinking my next upgrade now as well. ATI is looking much more attractive.

Do you think Stanford will adjust the points value for the new clients? Considering they are moving to a completely new architecture, they must have thought about it. Just set a baseline with the 1900 XTX and PS3 like they did with the P4 2.8.

I would imagine it would upset some of the corporate folders who have donated loads of time and money getting their systems setup and running, just to be passed by someone with a couple PS3's.

 

zim01

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DDogbert said:
I'm rethinking my next upgrade now as well. ATI is looking much more attractive.

Do you think Stanford will adjust the points value for the new clients? Considering they are moving to a completely new architecture, they must have thought about it. Just set a baseline with the 1900 XTX and PS3 like they did with the P4 2.8.

I would imagine it would upset some of the corporate folders who have donated loads of time and money getting their systems setup and running, just to be passed by someone with a couple PS3's.


interesting.......but the baseline is the baseline....you can't mod a PS3.....in terms of cpu memory...so for those who are willing to switch...more points...its like when the a0 core came for AMD.....big points upto 1161.....

perhaps a more interesting question is, can you run the cpu client while you you are running the GPU client?...and how many clients can you per GPU?......and how many GPUS per box?...and the list just goes on..... :)
 

mwarps

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If they can get even half the quoted GFLOPS out of the PS3 thing, I'll buy 4.

I don't game.

:D
 

BillR

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marty9876 said:
With the PPU/GPU/PS3/Cracker Jack Box new client crap coming from Stanford I'm not holding my breath for. Not to be negative, it's just been nothing new for 2 years, which is cool, just sick of getting excited about upcoming things.

/end negative

down with moose.

As much as it pains me to agree with Marty, I have to agree in this case.

Had Stanford spent even half this much time working on getting the assignment servers to send everyone work optimized to their various machines they would already be way ahead of the game today. The client we use already has the capability of sending them the proper info but they stubbornly resist making changes in their code.

My second point would be a very simple one, HEAT!

As it is GPU’s are already running on the bleeding edge in games heat wise, is everyone going to invest in high end water-cooling?

As for PS3, as every one has seen, it’s a very small box with a ton of processing power. Again, unless Sony has found a magic way to dissipate heat I can’t see these tiny boxes running 24/7 without issues.

I keep reading “With software from Sony” and I have to ask what’s in this for Sony besides a possible huge increase in warranty repairs. Something for nothing is not in the Sony vocabulary at the moment.

I’m actually one of those people who would love to see this work, however as Marty pointed our there is nothing new here after two years of empty promises and the incredibly slow improvement of the existing code and internal server structure at Stanford.

Bragging about a possible future without fixing the existing issues simply doesn’t impress me at all,especially when you consider the shear quantity and cost of the current over all installed base of existing computers.
 

DDogbert

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zim01 said:
interesting.......but the baseline is the baseline....you can't mod a PS3.....in terms of cpu memory...so for those who are willing to switch...more points...its like when the a0 core came for AMD.....big points upto 1161.....

perhaps a more interesting question is, can you run the cpu client while you you are running the GPU client?...and how many clients can you per GPU?......and how many GPUS per box?...and the list just goes on..... :)
Yeah, it will be interesting to see how much CPU time the GPU client takes up. If multiple GPUs are supported, could you have a CPU bottleneck? It will be fun to watch.
 

marty9876

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Good points Bill, but like any other business creating new products vs. fixing existing products seems to win out most days. Why fix something, just make a new broke thing. This is RE assignment server.

GPU's should be here, I mean they are testing in house. How much closer can it be? RE heat, who knows. Obviously Stanford is not water cooling the cards <picture, VJ hooking up a water kit to a video card....ummm I doubt it> would be my guess, maybe they run at 50% or what not and things don't get too warm. ATI obviously knows about all this as they have provided tool sets or what not for developers to run this stuff.

PS3- I'm about as clue less on consoles as I am Linux. "With software from Sony" interesting Bill.....

My quandary is with the points system. Frankly I care not, but if a single ATI 1900 x what ever x thing is putting out 5K PPD with a PS3 pumping out 25 K PPD people not running these are going to be freaking out all over the place.

The playing field for the points system could be warped farther than QMD's ever could. Handicap GPU/PS3 WU's, who knows.
 

Mohonri

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The people at Stanford aren't stupid--they're not gonna tick off all their existing users by making their uber-powerful CPUs useless. At least not at first. I expect that GPU/PS3 WUs will be points-impaired. Yeah, they'll be doing a lot more work, but they'll get fewer points for it. Say....an X1900 will be benchmarked at 200ppd or some such.
 

zim01

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Mohonri said:
The people at Stanford aren't stupid--they're not gonna tick off all their existing users by making their uber-powerful CPUs useless. At least not at first. I expect that GPU/PS3 WUs will be points-impaired. Yeah, they'll be doing a lot more work, but they'll get fewer points for it. Say....an X1900 will be benchmarked at 200ppd or some such.

out with the old...in with the new...if anything they'll be bonus points....do think Stanford
gives one flying rats ass about the the individual folders of the good ole days?........they want a super computer, the worlds fastest...and with GPU/PS3...they are going to get it. Just like the a0 core for AMD, huge points up to 1161....so get on board, or get rolled over
 

Mohonri

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It would be interesting to know what percentage of the work is done by corporate folders. If Stanford were to suddenly make their (significant) contribution meaningless, they could potentially lose a large portion of the production. Yeah, the corporate/edu folders won't have as much sway as they used to, but I think they'd accept that, as long as their contribution isn't minimized.

It would probably be smart, though, to start the GPU points at something like 200ppd, then gradually ramp it up to reflect the actual amount of work being done.
 

marty9876

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All the hype I've seen is massive PPD/Production off PS3/GPU. Cripple the points, compared to CPU folding, and people have no reason to run these.

Yes, the guy with both already might as well run both (barring heat GPU issue) for the "extra" PPD but these cases might be limited.

I assume the client will have an opt in (as stated) for GPU so peopel can answer y/n.

I'm not buying a ATI 19whatever for 200 PPD, or a PS3..... Well actually short of a naked chick I'm not buying anything for FAH but that's another deal.
 

zim01

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Mohonri said:
It would be interesting to know what percentage of the work is done by corporate folders. If Stanford were to suddenly make their (significant) contribution meaningless, they could potentially lose a large portion of the production. Yeah, the corporate/edu folders won't have as much sway as they used to, but I think they'd accept that, as long as their contribution isn't minimized.

It would probably be smart, though, to start the GPU points at something like 200ppd, then gradually ramp it up to reflect the actual amount of work being done.

I think you'd find very few corporate folders, intel's out , etc. The .edu who are in will stay in because its for science.....right now its you me and yes even mary who are the workhorses..wu by wu, day by day......but that's a going to change
 

zim01

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BillR

Just a thought, Stanford may have found a way to get 10-100x the computer power it has t today..so it doesn't need 250,000 cpus and zillion users...so the server prolem solves itself.

and for 5-600 bucks, pretty easy to get into the game......
 

BillR

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zim01 said:
BillR

Just a thought, Stanford may have found a way to get 10-100x the computer power it has t today..so it doesn't need 250,000 cpus and zillion users...so the server prolem solves itself.

and for 5-600 bucks, pretty easy to get into the game......

Interesting thought for sure but, when have you ever heard of any one or any institution having enough computing power? ;)
 

MN Scout

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I think the optimum thing to do is to make the wu size larger for the PS3 and GPU clients. Then they won't be hitting the servers so much. Also I think they should have per user a processor and then a gpu and a PS3 point total columns - all separate no grouping into one. Have separate points and people can order the "bestness" of a team on any which column they want. The cores are vastly different, and the hardware is vastly faster at crunching a normal processor wu - these new cores/clients are in a whole new league so why not create a new stat columns or tracking all together?

Oh, and watching Stanford rewrite these cores for the gpu over the past couple years, I foresee that it's going to take them awhile to make the PS3 cores/client. Unless this is something they've been keeping tightly under-wraps. I just don't see it coming out quickly.

 

natermeister

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I'm considering dropping my 7900GTX for an ATi X1950XTX, but only lightly. I'd much rather wait for the R600, which I believe is going to be a lot faster than the nVidia G80 for some reason.

I'm hoping for a workstation DP board that'll do CrossFire. I'll be building my yearly PC sometime next spring/summer. 8 cores + 2 GPUs + a PS3 + whatever boxen I build by then. I'm going to do all I can do to keep Team 33 rolling, even though I've not done a whole lot so far. Only like 7,000 points or so for the month and a half I've been a member.
 

7im

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...I have to ask what’s in this for Sony besides a possible huge increase in warranty repairs. Something for nothing is not in the Sony vocabulary at the moment.
No offense to you or them, but have you seen the grey haired old men that run big companies like Sony? They're just as likely to contract one of the diseases that F@H is working on. And when Sony is developing hundreds of games for PS3, what's one more little screen saver to save your neck? ;)
 
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