Some updates on the Radeon Technology Group (RTG)

Discussion in 'AMD Flavor' started by _mockingbird, May 26, 2018.

  1. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

    Messages:
    607
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    As you may remember, after Raja Koduri got kicked out, Lisa Su had to find someone to replace him as head of the RTG group.

    The was particularly difficult because there were three strong contenders: lisa su, Lisa su, and lisa Su, but in the end, Lisa Su chose lisa su.

    lisa su introduced a very different style of management. Instead of "shooting for the moon", su emphasizes "milestones" with realistic targets and tight deadlines.

    It has been strongly hinted that the reason for the tight deadlines is that AMD's top brass have been pitching AMD's roadmap to OEM vendors, and emphasizing AMD's ability to deliver products on time. (basically, a jab at Intel)

    I have said many months ago that RTG was laying the foundation for a new non-GCN architecture to succeed Navi. The work on this new architecture is now well underway.
     
  2. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,457
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    Excellent. Thank you again for the inside news, mockingbird.
     
    _mockingbird likes this.
  3. Algrim

    Algrim [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,100
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    Lisa Su has proven to be quite competent getting the CPU division in shape. I'm sure she can do the same with the GPU division. Here's to hoping that she has the command to shepherd both divisions without allowing one to suffer.
     
    c3k likes this.
  4. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

    Messages:
    607
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    She has been working hard to make AMD able to turn on a dime.

    Metaphorically, she has been going around and straightening out the kinks in the hose.
     
  5. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,181
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    I really want to see some competition in the gaming GPU space...
     
    Maddness likes this.
  6. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

    Messages:
    607
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    It's going to be a while.

    ...and when I said "a while", I mean ~"2021".
     
    brucethemoose, N4CR and KazeoHin like this.
  7. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,181
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Ryzen was worth the wait, let's hope Radeon follows suit.
     
    sonsonate and Maddness like this.
  8. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,457
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    So wait till GCN is over.. Gosh they are stringing it out.
     
    dvsman and euskalzabe like this.
  9. Maddness

    Maddness Gawd

    Messages:
    797
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Damn. I was hoping it wouldn't take that long. I have skipped Vega (mainly because of the insane price) and was holding out for more performance.
     
  10. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

    Messages:
    607
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Well, that's what happens as a result of poor planning.

    RTG should have started working on replacing GCN soon after it became clear with the Fury/Fury X that GCN was hitting its limits.

    Well, Navi would be the last stopgap before the next gen arrives, but that's probably not what you are looking for.
     
    Maddness likes this.
  11. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,457
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    If they do indeed decouple the geometry limitation in the architecture, navi might actually do ok.
     
  12. sirmonkey1985

    sirmonkey1985 [H]ard|DCer of the Month - July 2010

    Messages:
    20,184
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    they have no choice but to stick with what's already released and what has been taped out.. it takes anywhere from 3-5 years to design a gpu or cpu from the ground up and lisa took over at the end of last year so the 2021 prediction makes sense.

    do you think volta was designed last year? that shit was started back when maxwell was released. that's why nvidia doesn't release things based on competition, it's not cost effective for them to hold onto something since R&D time and money is put into designing these gpu's years in advance.

    there was actually a reddit ama a few years back with an amd engineer that went into a lot more detail about how the time tables for gpu's and cpu's release but i doubt i can find it again since searching on reddit is aid's.
     
    Maddness and Algrim like this.
  13. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,457
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    More than aware of how the timetables go but they have had gcn out since 2011 or so, when I bought a 7970 at launch. Amazing card and my favourite, was good for a 40% OC on a ref card. Absolutely ridiculous performance. But problems were already apparent with the Crysis 2 geometry fiasco and have only continued. So I'm curous why they didn't work on this further, earlier.
    That said, GCN is great at everything else and especially at compute though.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  14. SighTurtle

    SighTurtle [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,295
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2016
    https://www.theinformation.com/articles/intels-manufacturing-glitch-opens-door-for-amd

    Interesting article which includes statements from Forrest Norrod, head of AMD's Datacenter and Embedded Group, of which I found most interesting were his comments on RTG and Raja Koduri.
     
    auntjemima, N4CR and Pieter3dnow like this.
  15. Maddness

    Maddness Gawd

    Messages:
    797
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    I think AMD will miss Keller, but i'm happy Koduri has left the GPU department.
     
  16. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Underestimating Intel and gloating over their misfortune, isn't that how last time AMD management screwed up badly ?
     
  17. Rizen

    Rizen [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,039
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2000
    I'm not sure how you got that perception from his comments.
     
  18. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,745
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Considering I have a 1080ti... 2021 is fine for me.

    I welcome the Lisa Su change. It seems the overhyping has died down. I think that hurt AMD the most.
     
    N4CR and Maddness like this.
  19. Mega6

    Mega6 Gawd

    Messages:
    577
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Thanks sounds perfect. Looking forward to AMD making me more money.
     
    Maddness likes this.
  20. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    When you assign blame to just one person that went to Intel (they don't have money problems) is not only unrealistic but also far from the truth when you seen the personal changes in RTG.

    It is clear from https://semiaccurate.com/2018/05/29/is-intels-upcoming-10nm-launch-real-or-a-pr-stunt/ and the whole GPP situation that Intel dictates a lot of things maybe you find it logical that their best 14nm parts are not used but their under performing 10nm are by OEM.

    When you take 3 years to think that Intel would be back on track you are badly mistaken. Do I need to remind you of how Dell did not sell any volume of AMD products last time around when AMD had a good lead?

    If you look at the following AMD marketing got caught with their pants down at Computex. The talk now is how Intel needed a chiller that can not be bought by the desktop crowd. But all the media reported on how Intel 28 core reached 5ghz and did 7743 at Cinebench. And that story should have been about AMD not Intel. Long winded youtube about this .

    And yes that means that AMD management still underestimates Intel.

    Yeah but that has been the case for the last 3 years when Intel failed to deliver on 10nm. It is not about screwing up it is about to maintain a healthy lead and when Intel does come back they are still 3 years behind. And that is what AMD should focus on.
     
  21. Gideon

    Gideon [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,528
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006

    Sometimes it's best to let a competitor back themselves into a corner, in this case it will be something else that Intel cant deliver like 10nm chips and no the broken ones they are selling in China really dont count. Marketing also would not help to get Dell to use them, that had everything to do with Intel and their anti-competitive practices some years ago. Also Raja caused his own problems by over stating his own products, he was his own worst enemy and he had full control of the project, just budgeting was not within his control. A bad leader can ruin a whole project, will just have to see how that all turns out.
     
    Maddness likes this.
  22. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,222
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Underestimating? You must be reading something else. Talk about blowing a statement out of proportion lol! I am not sure how you got that lol.

    He was talking about missteps in the GPU roadmap. Did Raja feel like he knew what the f he was doing? Kyle stated clearly he had his own goals, he was trying to spin RTG. How about his presentations? Looked like a guy who over promised and under delivered each time. A great engineer doesn't make a great product manager. Honestly I am tired of everyone making excuses for Kaduri. I am glad he had the balls to call out Kaduri. He is no longer at the company so he can say whatever he wants. It is clear Kaduri was someone they couldn't control. Looked he was all Intel.

    It wasn't even about the shitty performance and power. It was how RTG was ran. It was a failure from marketing to all the hype.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  23. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Between Kyle,Raja and RTG is a story which people thought was worth mentioning but the real story is about not getting ahead of the design problems where you end up using HBM2 because the design at that core speed performance just can not function any other way (not with GDDR).

    And the way Raja saw RTG was needing cash flow more then anything else. No surprise he went to Intel basically because they have had so many trail runs that it would never amount to anything marketable.

    What Raja could not do is buy $40 worth of groceries with only $15 to spend. The problems that were created are done by himself and no one else. But the designs in the AMD/RTG gpu department were already in progress.

    If you see the message I quoted above the part where :
    I would say that Norrod needs to think about the choice of his words again. These are the people that in the past did very impressive things. If AMD did not have problems with cash flow I would even like to believe that these people still would be working for AMD.

    And I'm not blowing this out of proportion, find 5 industry veterans which will concur with the statement Norrod made, Intel won't be doing anything significant for 3 years ....

    You must have missed the part where a good deal of OEM signed the GPP but not Dell .....
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  24. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,222
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    he didn’t have the best budget. But he also didn’t help with constant hype train and stupid marketing. I think there was too much other shit going on at rtg rather than just cash problems. Sometimes you gotta learn to work with what you got. AMD doesn’t have intel budget either but did Lisa not tighten the belt and got them going? Sometimes execution means a lot too. I am sure raja learned too. He just wasn’t someone who could lead rtg. His first go at it was a failure. There is no 2 ways about it. I hope he doesn’t better at Intel.
     
    Pieter3dnow, gigaxtreme1 and Maddness like this.
  25. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    For us consumers yes, he over did it. But he also landed the AMD gpu deal with Intel and at that point in time was a good move. It can still be a good move if Intel can manage to sell these into the market now dominated by Nvidia.

    I get where you are going but I think there is more to it.
     
  26. NKD

    NKD [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,222
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Yea I agree. But I do think he may have lost his way a little though. Intel deal was decent but I do believe the rumors he was trying to spin RTG off, I wouldn't be surprised honestly if one of the reasons he got let go was because he was trying to push RTG to intel. I am very confident that is what happened. We will never know though. But I think after intel using vega was confirmed I started believing the rumors that he might have wanted AMD to sell of RTG. I think intel was probably highly interested.
     
  27. harmattan

    harmattan 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,981
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Does anyone else find it a bit sad that we're talking more about company infighting, politics and gossip of engineers (both on the AMD and nV side) than... you know... actual technology?
     
    Verado and Maddness like this.
  28. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Not that weird there is no new product (consumers) for this year and RTG has been shuffling some personnel around.
     
  29. Gideon

    Gideon [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,528
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Takes years to make these things anymore, easy node shrinks are gone. Plus gossip and rumors can be interesting sometimes, you would be surprised how much infighting their can be at a company.
     
  30. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    There is one up side at least everyone is tone deaf now towards exaggerated claims on the AMD side ;)
     
  31. Gideon

    Gideon [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,528
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    At least they didnt borrow that chiller from Intel just to show a overclock no normal user will ever be able to achieve. Intel over hypes their shit often they just dont get called out as often for it. How many years ago did they promise a easy 5GHz overclock and they just now got a cherry picked one that can boost to that. Intel and AMD have both been guilty of hyping something to a unrealistic expectation. I personally like the way Lisa Su is running the company, She has achieve a lot with AMD with far less resources then others had. I am guessing you will see quite a bit more focus at RTG and less hype with her at the helm now.
     
    Zuul likes this.
  32. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,449
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    The funny thing is (more sad then funny) that all of those articles and youtube reports still are up this day with the 5ghz claim. If AMD had such a chiller and ran Cinebench it would have been murder :) .
     
  33. Araxie

    Araxie [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,042
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    intel have "5ghz overclocked" processor since 2011 with the i7 2700K and it was somewhat easy even on Air cooling.. AMD have "5ghz overclocked" processor since 2012 with the FX 8350.. 5000Mhz it's a great marketing number, which it's why both companies always call for it in desperate situations, if not ask to the 900$ FX 9590, which it's exactly what you are claiming about the i7 8086K and even worse, as at least was binned enough to keep the same 95W TDP..

    intel it's actually in a damage control situation acting as if doesn't have AMD's dick in their ass but as Pieter3dnow intel can't be underestimated even if they are now in a bad position...
     
  34. Gideon

    Gideon [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,528
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Many 2700K did not make it to 5 GHz, some did tho and it was not as easy as Intel tried to imply. The 9590 was no doubt a desperation move by AMD basically a overclocked chip from the factory, but Intel was just as desperate with this 28 core display they put on. Intel is screwed for the next 3 years at least and they know it and why they went and got the man Jim Keller to build a new architecture. They know their current design will not scale to the same level as AMD's and with AMD about to move to 7nm it's only a uphill battle for Intel from there even if you want to say it's only equivalent to Intel 10nm that is still better then AMD has ever been able to do before. While I agree Intel should not be underestimated they are also in a bad position and they know it. AMD will have some breathing room now which is what they really need, takes time to rebuild a customer base in the corporate world. Id prefer AMD marketing right now as being on target rather then live in fantasy land and talking numbers or product it cant deliver. At least the cpu market is interesting again.
     
  35. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    8,087
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Nonsense. Intel got caught with their pants down -- temporarily. But they could stomp AMD's current Threadripper offering with a current gen Xeon rebranded for Enthusiast level. It just wouldn't be the particular Xeon they false started with in this instance.

    2013 news: Intel has 72 cores:
    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...ights-landing-cpu-for-exascale-supercomputing

    Intel Phi type chips......You don't think Intel has stuff in the engineering labs that they could dust off in a generation or two and bring to market?

    They wanted to show off the Mhz crown to keep the spotlight - but if you want to just do an all out torque war on cores - Intel still wins. Their prices are too high to be competitive with threadripper - but they can drop them as needed to be competitive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
    Araxie and Maddness like this.
  36. DedEmbryonicCe11

    DedEmbryonicCe11 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,415
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    If Intel knee-jerk released a 72 core processor for the HEDT crowd how could they price it reasonably to compete with Threadripper 2 without simultaneously killing demand and sales of their more expensive Xeon parts? Keep in mind they're already dropping that 28 core part to 1/4 of the original Xeon price. Yes they *can* drop prices but we don't know exactly how much it will hurt them to do so.
     
  37. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    8,087
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Doesn't have to be a knee jerk - they should stop doing knee jerks and calmly rebrand. Nobody in the Server market is going to be upset if a chip they bought in 2013 is rebranded and sold for 1/4 or even 1/8 the price in 2018 -- even if it has some enhancements/tweaks. Intel could divide their product line into a gaming enthusiast line with faster, but fewer cores, vs an enthusiast workstation/productivity line for consumers with greater/slower cores. The work has already been done on the high end Xeon's and Phi chips from 5 years back!!! They just have to rebrand it --- No need for hail mary passes and bad press.

    They also may have to face facts that the new market, competition driven, means that perhaps they won't get outrageous profit margins on their medium to high core count chips going forward.

    I'm not saying Threadripper in 16 core and 32 core formats isn't a market changer or isn't disruptive -- it absolutely is. I'm just saying Threadripper isn't an Intel killer, and clearly doesn't have Intel's tech beat if productivity is the new challenge theme AMD is chasing.

    Frankly, Intel still wins both ends of the spectrum. It's the consumer price spectrum they lose in. And since they've already done the research years ago - they could afford to lower prices ----- even if they don't want to --- and still retain the crowns with existing tech.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  38. THUMPer

    THUMPer I Sit in Stink

    Messages:
    2,641
    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    I was surprised I didn't see any wood screws from Intel at computex.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    Maddness likes this.