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Software Update Bricks Some Jeep 4xe Hybrids

erek

erek

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"Owners of some Jeep Wrangler 4xe hybrids have been left stranded after installing an over-the-air software update this weekend. The automaker pushed out a telematics update for the Uconnect infotainment system that evidently wasn't ready, resulting in cars losing power while driving and then becoming stranded. Stranded Jeep owners have been detailing their experiences in forum and Reddit posts, as well as on YouTube. The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving -- a far more serious problem. For some, this happened close to home and at low speed, but others claim to have experienced a powertrain failure at highway speeds."

Source: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/25/...bricks-some-jeep-4xe-hybrids-over-the-weekend
 
MrGuvernment said:
What moron designed a system that allows updates to happen while a vehicle is in motion.....
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i think Jaguar is still unrecovered from a Ransomware attack too

think their production facilities are still at a stand still, they're not manufacturing nothing for a long time now,

"Jaguar Land Rover said that they have delayed restarting production as a "forensic investigation" is in progress.[4]

The attack is believed to be costing the company ₤50 million a week.[4][2]"

think British government gave them a $2 billion dollar bailout
 
Reminds me of the Ford TCM (transmission control module) issue. The engine turned off on me twice while driving, and I was barely able to pull over the to breakdown lane. Thank God I drive in the right lane to begin with, or it could have been extremely bad. Never again buying a Ford, and it's not looking good for these new OTAR update enabled cars either.
 
arestavo said:
Reminds me of the Ford TCM (transmission control module) issue. The engine turned off on me twice while driving, and I was barely able to pull over the to breakdown lane. Thank God I drive in the right lane to begin with, or it could have been extremely bad. Never again buying a Ford, and it's not looking good for these new OTAR update enabled cars either.
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my last car shut off in the middle of the road abruptly

i had to sign a NDA because of the incident
 
MrGuvernment said:
What moron designed a system that allows updates to happen while a vehicle is in motion.....
Click to expand...
The update isn't instantly bricking the vehicle. The Jeep updates and apparently at some point later becomes bricked, which can include happening while the Jeep is being driven.

erek said:
my last car shut off in the middle of the road abruptly

i had to sign a NDA because of the incident
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Why would you HAVE to sign an NDA?
 
Teenyman45 said:
The update isn't instantly bricking the vehicle. The Jeep updates and apparently at some point later becomes bricked, which can include happening while the Jeep is being driven.



Why would you HAVE to sign an NDA?
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Usually an NDA is signed because the person got something, usually monetary compensation, in exchange for their silence. No one HAS to sign an NDA.
 
Teenyman45 said:
The update isn't instantly bricking the vehicle. The Jeep updates and apparently at some point later becomes bricked, which can include happening while the Jeep is being driven.



Why would you HAVE to sign an NDA?
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Probably some kind of settlement they didn't want him to discuss. Could be how much money they might have paid out or something about what went wrong with the car.
 
Teenyman45 said:
The update isn't instantly bricking the vehicle. The Jeep updates and apparently at some point later becomes bricked, which can include happening while the Jeep is being driven.



Why would you HAVE to sign an NDA?
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because likely they got a settlement that stipulated not talking about the whole deal as part of the agreement.
 
rinaldo00 said:
Usually an NDA is signed because the person got something, usually monetary compensation, in exchange for their silence. No one HAS to sign an NDA.
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Sign the NDA or you're fired, I guess can be considered monetary compensation.
 
I miss the days of points and condensers. Simple but effective. Now you need a laptop to diagnose.
 
mullet said:
I miss the days of points and condensers. Simple but effective. Now you need a laptop to diagnose.
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I personally don't but that's because everyone forgot how much it sucks to start a carburated car when it's cold and hasn't started in a week. The problem isn't that you need a laptop but sometimes you need exotic software to diagnose a car that is intentionally being removed online. BWM removed ISTA which is their software, but INPA which isn't is also being removed. It's not like the software is intuitive or anything. INPA is mostly in Dutch with English that is sometimes English. If you happen to change the valve seals in a BMW N62 engine because they smoke harder than diesel truck rolling coal, then you need INPA. Mostly because if you clean the Vanos solenoids like I did, it screws with the computer. By the way, no mechanic is ever going to change the valve seals in a N62 engine, because they got better things to do.

My Corvette C5 on the other hand has a built in scan tool that can even erase codes. You don't even need expensive software to tune it as the community provides. You don't see GM going after them with a DMCA. You wanna dump the rom and flash it, plus log data? Download PCMHammer. Wanna make adjustments to the engine? TunerPro is free. You ain't doing that with a modern Jeep because there's so much copyright surrounding that thing in that the moment you take out your Eeprom Programmer to try and fix your mistake, there's a lawyer breathing down your neck. Assuming that everything isn't keyed to each other, because they probably are.


View: https://youtu.be/6U8XDCvZ5zo?si=jPywzrLtILjYnFiB
 
DukenukemX said:
I personally don't but that's because everyone forgot how much it sucks to start a carburated car when it's cold and hasn't started in a week. The problem isn't that you need a laptop but sometimes you need exotic software to diagnose a car that is intentionally being removed online. BWM removed ISTA which is their software, but INPA which isn't is also being removed. It's not like the software is intuitive or anything. INPA is mostly in Dutch with English that is sometimes English. If you happen to change the valve seals in a BMW N62 engine because they smoke harder than diesel truck rolling coal, then you need INPA. Mostly because if you clean the Vanos solenoids like I did, it screws with the computer. By the way, no mechanic is ever going to change the valve seals in a N62 engine, because they got better things to do.

My Corvette C5 on the other hand has a built in scan tool that can even erase codes. You don't even need expensive software to tune it as the community provides. You don't see GM going after them with a DMCA. You wanna dump the rom and flash it, plus log data? Download PCMHammer. Wanna make adjustments to the engine? TunerPro is free. You ain't doing that with a modern Jeep because there's so much copyright surrounding that thing in that the moment you take out your Eeprom Programmer to try and fix your mistake, there's a lawyer breathing down your neck. Assuming that everything isn't keyed to each other, because they probably are.


View: https://youtu.be/6U8XDCvZ5zo?si=jPywzrLtILjYnFiB
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I never really had issues with my older carburated cars during the winter. It was the usual 2 pumps and they fired right up, obviously it took a little bit to completely warm up. But they always started up even in 20 below zero weather.
 
Starfalcon said:
I never really had issues with my older carburated cars during the winter. It was the usual 2 pumps and they fired right up, obviously it took a little bit to completely warm up. But they always started up even in 20 below zero weather.
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Carbureted cars run good if they're driven often but if they sit for a while and the whether is cold then it could take a number of attempts to start it. If the car sat for years then a carbureted car will be easier to get running than electronic fuel injection. I still see people who will pump the gas pedal of an electronic fuel injected car because they've been conditioned by carburetors. No matter what the conditions are, but with modern cars you just get in and turn the key (or press a button) and the car always starts.

The only reason modern cars suck to work on is because modern cars aren't meant to be worked on. You buy an old German car from the 90's and the rear has tools in it to help you work on the car if you get stuck. Modern cars now remove the oil dip stick, especially modern German cars. The electronics just make the situation worse because they're designed to be difficult to work on. You want anything computer related done then to the dealer you go. This is mostly because modern car modules are keyed to each other and you can't just go to the junk yard and swap it. There's no reason for doing this, other than to make sure you end up at the dealer. I wish I could use my laptop to fix modern cars because that would be great. Now you need a shop with equipment that cost tens of thousands just to even look at your car. So of course, no shop has this equipment. If you drive up to a mechanic shop with a German car then they'll direct you to the dealer, because they're the only ones who can work on it.
 
DukenukemX said:
Carbureted cars run good if they're driven often but if they sit for a while and the whether is cold then it could take a number of attempts to start it. If the car sat for years then a carbureted car will be easier to get running than electronic fuel injection. I still see people who will pump the gas pedal of an electronic fuel injected car because they've been conditioned by carburetors. No matter what the conditions are, but with modern cars you just get in and turn the key (or press a button) and the car always starts.

The only reason modern cars suck to work on is because modern cars aren't meant to be worked on. You buy an old German car from the 90's and the rear has tools in it to help you work on the car if you get stuck. Modern cars now remove the oil dip stick, especially modern German cars. The electronics just make the situation worse because they're designed to be difficult to work on. You want anything computer related done then to the dealer you go. This is mostly because modern car modules are keyed to each other and you can't just go to the junk yard and swap it. There's no reason for doing this, other than to make sure you end up at the dealer. I wish I could use my laptop to fix modern cars because that would be great. Now you need a shop with equipment that cost tens of thousands just to even look at your car. So of course, no shop has this equipment. If you drive up to a mechanic shop with a German car then they'll direct you to the dealer, because they're the only ones who can work on it.
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It's getting worse than you're even describing. It's getting to the point where you have to 1) have a special tool or 2) have to remove part of the engine just to change the oil filter. We're not just heading toward anti-consumerism, we're there. Everyone is taking notes from the John Deere or Apple service playbook.

Ever popped the hood on a modern car and noticed there's no room to get your hands into anything? Notice how you have to take about three covers off just to even see the bare engine? It's because the engineers are being told what to do by the service channels. The service channels make their money off forcing the customer into the shops.

The manufacturer does not want average joe consumer working on their product. They want you to take it to an authorized dealer. Even the side-hustling mechanics are being pushed aside because they lack the training or specialty tools.
 
This happened to my neighbor's Wrangler 4xe a few days ago, I assume. I was going to work the other morning and noticed he was blocking the road halfway out of his driveway and he flagged me down to help him push it. But it wouldn't budge, almost like it was in park or the wheels were locked. I offered to pull it out of the road with my H1 but he didn't want to damage it further. I think he had it towed back to the dealer since it hasn't been at his house for 2 days. I'll have to ask him if that's what the issue was.
 
Absalom said:
It's getting worse than you're even describing. It's getting to the point where you have to 1) have a special tool or 2) have to remove part of the engine just to change the oil filter. We're not just heading toward anti-consumerism, we're there. Everyone is taking notes from the John Deere or Apple service playbook.

Ever popped the hood on a modern car and noticed there's no room to get your hands into anything? Notice how you have to take about three covers off just to even see the bare engine? It's because the engineers are being told what to do by the service channels. The service channels make their money off forcing the customer into the shops.

The manufacturer does not want average joe consumer working on their product. They want you to take it to an authorized dealer. Even the side-hustling mechanics are being pushed aside because they lack the training or specialty tools.
Click to expand...
for some manufacturers yes, others are still ok. i just hope they stay that way!

special tools are definitely a pain, in particular the computer/software side of things. However, it's not (yet) a huge problem for quite a few. there are inexpensive ways to get access. i have access to all the dealer options/diagnostics for both my mazda and toyota.

with all that in mind, i do make my car purchases based out of repairability and reliability. if it's difficult to repair, i won't touch it. would be nice if more did the same but hey can't win 'em all.
 
Absalom said:
It's getting worse than you're even describing. It's getting to the point where you have to 1) have a special tool or 2) have to remove part of the engine just to change the oil filter. We're not just heading toward anti-consumerism, we're there. Everyone is taking notes from the John Deere or Apple service playbook.

Ever popped the hood on a modern car and noticed there's no room to get your hands into anything? Notice how you have to take about three covers off just to even see the bare engine? It's because the engineers are being told what to do by the service channels. The service channels make their money off forcing the customer into the shops.

The manufacturer does not want average joe consumer working on their product. They want you to take it to an authorized dealer. Even the side-hustling mechanics are being pushed aside because they lack the training or specialty tools.
Click to expand...
Oh I know. Starters in transmissions. Timing chains in the rear of the engine, which would require the removal of the engine to gain access. Mostly European cars do this, but some American cars started doing this crap too. The BMW that I have was a nightmare to get working. The DME failed and I thought I could just buy a used DME and slap it in. Then I thought I could at least program the DME to get it working on the car. Nope! I resorted to sending out my old and new to me DME to some guy on Ebay and paid him $100 to get it programmed. This is a 2007 BMW, and not some 2017 where you'd expect to have trouble. I tried to make a copy of the key to said car, but there's no easy way to do this. I did buy the physical key for like $40 on Amazon, but nobody would program it. I ended up not making a second key because I would looking into the hundreds for one. I do have a number of Toyota/Lexus cars and once I have the key cut I then use Toyota Techstream on my laptop to program the key to the car. I went to my local key shop and had the key cut for $6. The key itself was like $15 for a Highlander or $50 for IS series cars.

The process itself isn't hard as you can see. I'm not sure if Toyota Techstream is legal for everyone to use but it was included with a ODB2 cable I bought on Amazon and don't care. Techstream may require Windows 7 but there's a way to get it working on Windows 10. Like I said, if I can use a laptop to fix my car then I'm happy. It's when I can't is when the problems start.

View: https://youtu.be/0ZfmOf0yGQY?si=VFa7qwe-m7vRKM2k
 
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DukenukemX said:
Oh I know. Starters in transmissions. Timing chains in the rear of the engine, which would require the removal of the engine to gain access. Mostly European cars do this, but some American cars started doing this crap too. The BMW that I have was a nightmare to get working. The DME failed and I thought I could just buy a used DME and slap it in. Then I thought I could at least program the DME to get it working on the car. Nope! I resorted to sending out my old and new to me DME to some guy on Ebay and paid him $100 to get it programmed. This is a 2007 BMW, and not some 2017 where you'd expect to have trouble. I tried to make a copy of the key to said car, but there's no easy way to do this. I did buy the physical key for like $40 on Amazon, but nobody would program it. I ended up not making a second key because I would looking into the hundreds for one. I do have a number of Toyota/Lexus cars and once I have the key cut I then use Toyota Techstream on my laptop to program the key to the car. I went to my local key shop and had the key cut for $6. The key itself was like $15 for a Highlander or $50 for IS series cars.

The process itself isn't hard as you can see. I'm not sure if Toyota Techstream is legal for everyone to use but it was included with a ODB2 cable I bought on Amazon and don't care. Techstream may require Windows 7 but there's a way to get it working on Windows 10. Like I said, if I can use a laptop to fix my car then I'm happy. It's when I can't is when the problems start.

View: https://youtu.be/0ZfmOf0yGQY?si=VFa7qwe-m7vRKM2k
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I'm sure you would notice being computer savvy but I'm going to mention it anyway...

I got one of those too. Works great. Didn't cost much. During the installation mine required a custom driver that they supplied since it's not the Mongoose adapter that Toyota likes.

That driver had a Trojan in it that is designed for identity theft. Transmits to some nebulous location in China.

Wasn't difficult to remove. I simply removed the network drivers for installation and trojan removal.

And no I do not remember what it was called :(
 
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Stellantis for the lose. Sad part is I like Jeeps. But Stellantis is so desperate to make Jeep some luxury brand like Range Rover it's digusting. That's not what Jeep was ever meant to be.
 
Absalom said:
Ever popped the hood on a modern car and noticed there's no room to get your hands into anything?
Click to expand...
Without disagreeing with your larger point, this change is supposedly driven more by bean counters: by making the engine compartment smaller, they use a little less metal/etc and save a small amount of money. Sounds ridiculous, but consider this: I once watched a How It's Made video about tin cans, and they showed one factory with a file cabinet full of patents, each of which made tiny little incremental improvements that, individually, reduced the cost of one can maybe 1/100th of a penny or even less...but that adds up when you're making tens of millions of them a year.

I don't like the reduced space, but I sort of understand it. Where it annoys me is how it requires stupid stuff like taking off the intake manifold so you can get reach the spark plugs to change them.
 
DukenukemX said:
I tried to make a copy of the key to said car, but there's no easy way to do this. I did buy the physical key for like $40 on Amazon, but nobody would program it.
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Oh, that one I hate a lot. I'm glad that my car will let you program a new key by plugging it in, after you've used one it recognizes: I had to do that a couple of years ago.
 
The whole concept of a car "infotainment system" makes me cringe. I expect my cars to last 20-30+ years. For example, two of the cars that we have, a 1996 F150 and a 1998 Toyota 4Runner, both still running great, filling roles as backup vehicles.

So the last thing I want is them cramming non-removable "infotainment" tech in there that is going to become embarrassingly obsolete in 5 years or less.

Just give me good bluetooth support, and a nice spot to put my own tablets/phone, so that the tech upgrades over time as I get new tablets/phones.

But since that approach doesn't give them subscription revenue, we know which route the industry will continue to take.
 
I had Centrafuse working awesome back in 2007 or so with a Jetway ITX HTPC under the seat. It had AM/FM/XM via USB dongle, GPS via USB dongle with Google Earth plugin, CD/DVD/MP3 playback, full equalizer with visualization plugins, podcasts, Shoutcast internet radio, SWI-PAC integration via USB dongle, 3g modem w/ SIM card for internet/calls, wifi, bluetooth, backup camera, OBD2 diagnostics, etc. It's amazing how multi-billion dollar companies can't even get something right that I had working fine nearly 20 years ago. AND, you could back it up and replace it if it died. Just image a new drive and/or replace the hardware with anything similar.. even the screen since it was just a standard double-din 7" touch screen. It was pretty neat.. I had it hooked up with an Automotive version of the Pico-PSU, so when you turned off the car it would signal the PC to go into hibernate, then it would wake up at the next start of the car within about 7 seconds. I don't even think any of my modern car infotainment systems start up that fast.
 
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My last job involved a lot of interaction with Stellantis' tech team: an absolute dumpster fire of an organization. As much I don't agree with Elmo, get a Tesla if you want an EV or a Japanese car if you want anything else and some of the so called Japanese cars are more patriotic than 'Merican ones, my Acura MDX had the highest US component ratio of any car on the road, may explain the number of recalls but the car itself was largely issue free for 8 years with minimal maintenance. Biggest mistake was taking it to Firestone for a wheel alignment, took them 18 months and 6 visits to finally correct it...my Model 3 has it's share of issues including a rattling dash that has been in for 3 services and the windshields are the most delicate produced in the last 50 yrs (Geico covered 1200 out of the 1700 replacement cost and signed up for the $12/mo windshield plus the $12/mo tire hazard plan since, once incident and it more than pays for itself).
 
GotNoRice said:
The whole concept of a car "infotainment system" makes me cringe. I expect my cars to last 20-30+ years. For example, two of the cars that we have, a 1996 F150 and a 1998 Toyota 4Runner, both still running great, filling roles as backup vehicles.

So the last thing I want is them cramming non-removable "infotainment" tech in there that is going to become embarrassingly obsolete in 5 years or less.

Just give me good bluetooth support, and a nice spot to put my own tablets/phone, so that the tech upgrades over time as I get new tablets/phones.

But since that approach doesn't give them subscription revenue, we know which route the industry will continue to take.
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yea you can't even get an aftermarket or third party head unit anymore for these "modern" cars :(

and once they stop rolling out Over The Air updates and firmwares to your various ECUs, the cars become unsupported, unwarrantable (even by third party extension services) and just bricks that won't start anymore
 
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