Software Raid program for Windows 7

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skchan

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Aug 13, 2004
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What programs are there for software raid, kind of like the Intel Rapid Storage Solution? Looking for one that can do drive pooling like WHS or the Drobo. Want the ability to use different sized drives with parity, so i dont lose data if one drive fails and not be limited to all the drives equal the smallest in the array, like in RAID 5. I saw a mention of FlexRaid, but it looked a little complicated.

Currently, I'm currently using XP and want to upgrade to win 7 64 bit.My OS is on a seperate hd apart from the RAID array. For my raid array I'm using the Intel raid software with 5x 1tb HD in RAID 5 and want to redo the array because the way i have it currently set up is kind of bad. The current set up is that i split the 4tb RAID 5 array in the bios into 2x 2tb partitions, because win xp couldnt see the 4tb array, then i spanned them together in winxp to make it back into 4tb.

I'm thinking of getting 5x 2tb drives, us two to back up the data so i can redo the array using 3x 2tb and 2x 1tb. Then after copying the data back over, replace the 2x 1tb with the 2x 2tb that was used to back up the data. so something like:

2tb + 2tb + 1tb + 1tb + 2tb (for parity) = 6tb before file transfer

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb (for parity) = 8tb

or i think i read that FlexRaid can do this:

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 4x 1tb (for parity) = 10tb or something like that

my motherboard is an ASUS Maximus II Formula and has 6 SATA port on the Intel ICH10R plus 2 more on the Silicon Image 5723

my 5x 1 tb are on the Intel SATA ports and my OS HD and DVD burner are on the Silicon SATA ports. i would get an external box or a non raid SATA card for extra ports...

What are my options?
 
Do not use the Silicon Image RAID drivers; only advice i can give you. Use those ports for your DVD burner or single disk instead, without RAID.

I would have said have a look at ZFS, but i assume you want something that runs on XP/Win7 rather than a NAS. A (highly experimental) alternative setup would be to run Virtualbox and give it physical access to all your disks; that could work, but untested and CPU-intensive.

You can also see what Windows disk management allows for RAID options. I would not recommend running proprietary RAID systems as you could not recover your data with an alternative driver such as in Ubuntu (which recognizes Intel RAID arrays just fine; and many others too).
 
sub.mesa said:
Do not use the Silicon Image RAID drivers; only advice i can give you. Use those ports for your DVD burner or single disk instead, without RAID.

I would have said have a look at ZFS, but i assume you want something that runs on XP/Win7 rather than a NAS. A (highly experimental) alternative setup would be to run Virtualbox and give it physical access to all your disks; that could work, but untested and CPU-intensive.

You can also see what Windows disk management allows for RAID options. I would not recommend running proprietary RAID systems as you could not recover your data with an alternative driver such as in Ubuntu (which recognizes Intel RAID arrays just fine; and many others too).
Click to expand...

I'm not using the silicon image ports in the RAID 5 array or any other RAID. i just have one hard drive and one DVD burner plugged into those ports (i think, i will have to look to see where my OS HD is plugged).

Correct, I'm not looking to run a NAS, just a big storage array.
 
skchan said:
or i think i read that FlexRaid can do this:

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 4x 1tb (for parity) = 10tb or something like that
Click to expand...

If you're doing Flex like RAID-6, then it would be:

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2x 1tb (for parity) + 2x 1tb (for second parity)= 10tb

If like RAID-5 then:

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 1tb (for data) + 1tb (for data) + 2x 1tb (for parity) = 12TB

So don't short change yourself on that extra 2TB, unless you're meaning for the double-parity redundancy...
 
Tolyngee said:
If you're doing Flex like RAID-6, then it would be:

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2x 1tb (for parity) + 2x 1tb (for second parity)= 10tb

If like RAID-5 then:

2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2tb + 2x 1tb (for data) + 2x 1tb (for parity) = 12TB

So don't short change yourself on that extra 2TB, unless you're meaning for the double-parity redundancy...
Click to expand...

ahh, yes...i mean having the 4x 1tb split into 2 parity for RAID 6 since i heard RAID 6 is safe than 5 with drives bigger than 1tb...
 
skchan said:
ahh, yes...i mean having the 4x 1tb split into 2 parity for RAID 6 since i heard RAID 6 is safe than 5 with drives bigger than 1tb...
Click to expand...

That advise has more to do with the number of drives you are using, not the size of the drives in question.

For instance, using four 1TB drives for parity instead of two 2TB drives means you're twice as likely to experience a drive failure.

But with Flex you only lose what was on the drives that fail if you don't have enough parity to fix it. You don't lose the entire array.

IMO, as long as you have back-ups (RAID isn't a back-up), I'd feel safe using Flex with one set of parity... You can lose a drive and still have Flex fix it, two failures and while it's true you are doing some restores, the chances you lose multiple drives at once typically points to another problem, and you're probably losing data anyway...

Just opinion... Flex was made for multiple sets of parity... But the more drives you have, the more likely of one failing...
 
Tolyngee said:
That advise has more to do with the number of drives you are using, not the size of the drives in question.

For instance, using four 1TB drives for parity instead of two 2TB drives means you're twice as likely to experience a drive failure.

But with Flex you only lose what was on the drives that fail if you don't have enough parity to fix it. You don't lose the entire array.

IMO, as long as you have back-ups (RAID isn't a back-up), I'd feel safe using Flex with one set of parity... You can lose a drive and still have Flex fix it, two failures and while it's true you are doing some restores, the chances you lose multiple drives at once typically points to another problem, and you're probably losing data anyway...

Just opinion... Flex was made for multiple sets of parity... But the more drives you have, the more likely of one failing...
Click to expand...

i did read about FlexRaid only losing data on the disk and not the whole array, which is a plus. Also, for FlexRaid, raid doesnt need to be set in the bios level at all, right?

Any recommendations on getting extra SATA ports added?

on a side note: non storage related - RAM is limited by the OS and not the CPU right?, was thinking of adding more RAM if i switched to Win 7 64Bit. Currently have 2x 2GB and thinking of adding 2x 2gb or 2x 4gb.
 
skchan said:
i did read about FlexRaid only losing data on the disk and not the whole array, which is a plus. Also, for FlexRaid, raid doesnt need to be set in the bios level at all, right?

Any recommendations on getting extra SATA ports added?

on a side note: non storage related - RAM is limited by the OS and not the CPU right?, was thinking of adding more RAM if i switched to Win 7 64Bit. Currently have 2x 2GB and thinking of adding 2x 2gb or 2x 4gb.
Click to expand...

Not sure if I understand the RAM question, but with not knowing what CPU you plan to use, the CPU still needs to be a 64-bit CPU. If you're using a CPU you've bought in the last five years, it's fine. I only mention that just in case. (Hey, I have older machines I could use for a file server that I couldn't install a 64-bit OS on...)

Flex is completely software. Your BIOS just has to be able to see the ports the drive are attached to.

For extra ports, but a cheap multi-port RAID card, or that SuperMicro non-RAID 8-port card. I recommend the former as the SuperMicro has no hardware RAID at all (sometimes some real hardware RAID feature is nice, like RAID-1 two boot drives for hardware-supported redundancy of the boot drive) and is ~$90, while the 3ware 8xxx cards (they work fine for software RAID in my opinion, if someone wants to disagree and flame me, so be it...) can be bought dirt cheap, probably as low as $30 for an 8-porter, plus you can still get some 12-port cards.

Adaptec or someone also has a 16-port card that probably would work for software RAID, but I have no experience using it (although I do own one, never used it), so I'd hate to recommend it, but I'd still like to suggest it as a possibility.

16-ports is nice if you're short on available slots for cards... Otherwise the 3ware cards are the cheapest solution I know of...
 
Tolyngee said:
Not sure if I understand the RAM question, but with not knowing what CPU you plan to use, the CPU still needs to be a 64-bit CPU. If you're using a CPU you've bought in the last five years, it's fine. I only mention that just in case. (Hey, I have older machines I could use for a file server that I couldn't install a 64-bit OS on...)

Flex is completely software. Your BIOS just has to be able to see the ports the drive are attached to.

For extra ports, but a cheap multi-port RAID card, or that SuperMicro non-RAID 8-port card. I recommend the former as the SuperMicro has no hardware RAID at all (sometimes some real hardware RAID feature is nice, like RAID-1 two boot drives for hardware-supported redundancy of the boot drive) and is ~$90, while the 3ware 8xxx cards (they work fine for software RAID in my opinion, if someone wants to disagree and flame me, so be it...) can be bought dirt cheap, probably as low as $30 for an 8-porter, plus you can still get some 12-port cards.

Adaptec or someone also has a 16-port card that probably would work for software RAID, but I have no experience using it (although I do own one, never used it), so I'd hate to recommend it, but I'd still like to suggest it as a possibility.

16-ports is nice if you're short on available slots for cards... Otherwise the 3ware cards are the cheapest solution I know of...
Click to expand...

if im using flexraid, then i wouldnt need to use a raid card, the supermicro should suffice...

now im wondering if i should build a brand new system, or upgrade my current one...

if i upgrade, it would cost about $1k:


If i build a new system, it would cost about $2.3k:

same as above plus:
Gigabyte Mobo - $210
Gigabyte ATI Radeon 5850 - $310
12 GB Ram (6x 2gb) - $380
Core i7 920 CPU - $280
Main OS HD WD Velociraptor 300gb - $200
i would reuse my case, DVD burner, and PSU​

i'm leaning towards upgrading, but my current rig is a year and a half old...

also, with flexraid, can i add hard drives to the array?
 
skchan said:
which one was $30?...i didnt see it on newegg...unless im searching wrong...
Click to expand...

Ebay, used dirt cheap... I just keep a few around, so if one does die, I have an immediate replacement.

(again, it's just opinion, it's your money... But everyone seems to go with those SuperMicro cards anyway...)

I did see you only have one drive for your OS. That's why I was suggesting a real RAID card for at least RAID-1 of your OS. Although I admit your motherboard also can do this, but if your mobo dies, although Flex can easily transfer back over to any system since it just sees disks, you can (not will, can...) lose your RAID-1 if your next mobo doesn't have the same chipset as your previous one.

Just opinion, but to me it was enough of a risk to run the hardware RAID for my OS on a hardware RAID card, so that it was instantly transferable to any new mobo without any issue.

Like I said, when they're cheap, you just keep multiple RAID cards around, so if one does die, it's quickly replaced.

And again: everything stated is just opinion anyway.

But, for Flex, it's biggest pro (metadata) can be its biggest con as well.

With metadata, Flex can also tell if your data is corrupted. You don't (or shouldn't) store this data on any of your Flex data drives. I don't think it's imperative for the Flex array, but even if it's not, it's as close to it as you can get.

Keep it on a flex data drive, and the drive dies? Your metadata's now gone.

Keep it on a parity drive? Keep it on your OS drive? Again, last I knew, it's now gone.

Maybe it would better if this metadata was written to multiple drives for redundancy, but last I knew it's not. And the metadata can get rather big, since it's CRC about your data.

While the metadata is not imperative, I do believe that if you lose this data, Flex also is incapable of fixing data loss in the event of a drive failure. So, it's worse than a drive failure. You lose it, your Flex array might be toast 'til you rebuild it.

Now, you can turn Flex off for a bit (long ago), and copy this metadata somewhere else in the meantime, but since Flex is now a service of Windows, I don't know if you can shut it on and off at will.

But this is why I kept the metadata and Flex config info on a RAID array: redundancy of this data on hardware. Also, your OS has hardware redundancy as well.

If your single OS drive dies, it's still a small pain to get yourself back up and running.

And, I may be wrong, maybe Flex now keeps redundancy on this metadata as well. Last I knew, it did not. And, as I said, I could be wrong, but I do believe Flex having the ability to repair damage/corruption (definitely gone, as it doesn't know what's good and bad data) or a drive failure (it has the parity to fix this, but since the metadata and your flex array config data is gone, I think you need to rebuild the Flex parity, so again, it's toast...)

Makes Flex sound bad, but it's solved in the past by just running your OS on hardware RAID and having the metadata saved there. Hardware redundancy on it. Then you can also copy it somewhere else for even more redundancy on your own, but like I said, you'd need to temp shut down Flex for that to work, and with Flex now a Windows service, I'm not sure if that capability disappeared.

But, you never lose access to your data: they are just drives at all times. You just possibly lose the redundancy of that data 'til Flex rebuilds itself.

If this has been more info than you understand, I apologize. Flex is in my opinion still the best option due to the metadata. The only issue is the potential loss of this metadata. But with the metadata it can sense if your data is corrupt somewhere. Hardware RAID does not do this, and most software RAIDs do not do this. They just can save you from a drive failure. They can't sense corruption. (And actually, a system that cannot sense corruption can actually make corruption worse, as it just rebuilds, without knowing if it's using good or bad data...)

But your metadata is just like your parity: any time you change the data on a data drive, it must re-calculate your parity, and re-calculate your metadata. So, old metadata can be as useless as old parity. So, a back-up of it is only as good as to how current it is.


All of this is resolved though if your metadata is stored on a hardware RAID array so it has redundancy (what I did), or if Flex has improved (no idea) and stores this data now on more than one drive. Flex may indeed already be storing this info in more than one place now. Last time I used Flex (been quite some time actually), it wasn't. But that was sort of in its infancy.

Read up on Flex to be certain, or get on the forums and read or ask and someone will respond. Either way, you're going to have to read up on it to use it effectively.


And yes, you can add drives. You add the drive, and tell it to rebuild the parity.
 
You can download Veritas Storage Foundation Basic for free and allows all types of RAID on Windows.
 
Tolyngee said:
Ebay, used dirt cheap... I just keep a few around, so if one does die, I have an immediate replacement.
Click to expand...

which brand is good?

Tolyngee said:
I did see you only have one drive for your OS. That's why I was suggesting a real RAID card for at least RAID-1 of your OS. Although I admit your motherboard also can do this, but if your mobo dies, although Flex can easily transfer back over to any system since it just sees disks, you can (not will, can...) lose your RAID-1 if your next mobo doesn't have the same chipset as your previous one.
Click to expand...

if i consistently stick with an intel south bridge on the motherboard i should be good, if i ever want to upgrade, as for RAID-1 on the OS drive, i guess that would be another level of backup for the metadata...i guess i will be saving up for an upgrade rather than a new build...i think my current build can last another year or so...
 
skchan said:
which brand is good?



if i consistently stick with an intel south bridge on the motherboard i should be good, if i ever want to upgrade, as for RAID-1 on the OS drive, i guess that would be another level of backup for the metadata...i guess i will be saving up for an upgrade rather than a new build...i think my current build can last another year or so...
Click to expand...

Again, basically what I state her is just opinion...

I really only have experience with 3ware cards. I was just suggesting it as the cheapest option, assuming you were trying to save. If you have money to burn, buy something with full support of the OS you plan to use.

I think for the newest OSes the older 3ware cards only have beta driver support. Which is probably enough if all you need is for the OS to see the ports so it can see the drives for JBOD. Never had an issue going this route with 2000 & XP.

Because keep in mind that real hardware RAID cards get darn expensive real quick. And if just going the SuperMicro route for just a bunch of ports, again, a cheap RAID card you can buy three for the price of one SuperMicro card. It's why I went that route.

And, if you're short on expansion slots, there are also 16-port cards that are fairly cheap that should be fine for JBOD:

16-port: http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-Adapt...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f00541ae1

cheap 3ware 8-port: http://cgi.ebay.com/3ware-8506-8-Ki..._EN_Networking_Components&hash=item439f7866b8

I've grabbed a 21610SA for ~$90 before, and a 8506-8 for ~$30 before. Assuming you can find a driver, I don't see why either wouldn't be fine for JBOD.

But, everyone use the SuperMicro, so maybe people know something I don't know though too?



But I haven't been involved in Flex for well over a year. I was there in its infancy. Like I said, it might have very well changed by now, but back then, you did not want to lose your metadata, and it was only stored in one location. Today, it may very well be stored in multiple locations, and it might not be the death blow to your array config that it would have been back then.

And, again, if you lose your metadata, worst case scenario is that you've just lost fault tolerance in your array. As long as you haven't suffered a drive failure, you have NOT lost data. Rebuild your Flex parity and all's good again.
 
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Tolyngee said:
16-port: http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-Adapt...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f00541ae1
------

I've grabbed a 21610SA for ~$90 before, and a 8506-8 for ~$30 before. Assuming you can find a driver, I don't see why either wouldn't be fine for JBOD.

But, everyone use the SuperMicro, so maybe people know something I don't know though too?
Click to expand...

Well that particular Adaptec line was actually pretty slow even in JBOD setup. That's the main reason why you rarely see that card line in large WHS setups: They're pretty slow. The Supermicro cards were shown to be significantly faster than that particular Adapatec line.

Thus why everyone uses Supermicro and higher-end/newer Adapatec cards: Because they're faster.
 
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Danny Bui said:
Well that particular Adaptec line was actually pretty slow even in JBOD setup. That's the main reason why you rarely see that card line in large WHS setups: They're pretty slow. The Supermicro cards were shown to be significantly faster than that particular Adapatec line.

Thus why everyone uses Supermicro and higher-end/newer Adapatec cards: Because they're faster.
Click to expand...

I knew they were dog gone slow when being used as a hardware RAID card for hardware RAID (which I wasn't suggesting)... But I didn't know it was slow for JBOD.

Then again, if it's just streaming movies from a single disk at a time, how fast does it need to be?
 
Tolyngee said:
Then again, if it's just streaming movies from a single disk at a time, how fast does it need to be?
Click to expand...
Not too sure TBH.

Though I'm fairly sure people will want to be able to get the full performance of their HDDs rather than half of it.
 
Danny Bui said:
Not too sure TBH.

Though I'm fairly sure people will want to be able to get the full performance of their HDDs rather than half of it.
Click to expand...

The correct answer was it just has to be as fast as the bitrate of the movie you're streaming...

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/2tb-hdd-caviar,2261-7.html

That drive can read/write at an average of 78MB/s. Half that (according to you) and you're still at 39MB/s. It's just streaming a movie.

Even when Flex is doing it's build/verify/re-build, that's nine drives. 39x9=351MB/s.

Not sure what Flex's limits really are, but that already sounds like it's pushing it. Double that for the actual rate of the drives and you are at 702MB/s.

Flex has certainly had some optimizations since I last used it, but those speeds?
 
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