So what happens to the laptop market if... (intel+amd chip related)

Darakian

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So what happens to the laptop market if intel pairs an amd chip to ALL high end laptop parts? The way I see it intel is taking a jab at nvidia with this amd deal and if they really want it to sting then why not pair an amd chip to the entire high end line? A few things could happen
1. Gaming laptops move to a thinner, lighter world with amd being the primary graphics provider (least likely I think)
2. Nvidia chips still get put in high end laptops but now there's an amd chip along for the ride (mGPU gets really interesting).
3. High end laptops move to a lower tier of cpu in order to not have the extra gpu (marketing becomes weird).
4. A mix of 1 and 2

Just to be clear I'm not saying this will happen, but I think it's worth considering.
 

ecmaster76

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I think we will see thin mid/high range devices like MacBook and Surface with better graphic options and battery life

1. "entry" gaming devices will be thinner/lighter
2. Nvidia laptops will just use traditional Intel mobile parts which aren't going anywhere to keep cost in line with today
3. Nah
4. Kinda

However until we know how much Intel charges and how well performance/efficiency ends up working out its hard to say for sure how these chimeras will change the market. Raven Ridge will have similar effects I expect on the low/mid range devices
 

Stoly

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I concur. I wonder what kind of performance should we expect.

I wouldn't be surprised if it surpassed a PS4 Pro
 

DF-1

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AMD APUs are pretty much junk. Not ALL that much faster than iris pro. I don't see the big deal here at all. It's gonna be slow

If it's 1050ti+ levels of performance then it might be something.
 

ecmaster76

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AMD APUs are pretty much junk. Not ALL that much faster than iris pro. I don't see the big deal here at all. It's gonna be slow

If it's 1050ti+ levels of performance then it might be something.
Raven Ridge should be a decent step up on the APU front

This Intel H series should have roughly the GPU power of a Radeon 470 (3.3 TFLOPS or greater per rumors), placing it between PS4 and PS4 PRO performance level for what that's worth
 

QuintLeo

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Even the CURRENT AMD integrated graphics on the A10 series blow away anything Intel - but that's not saying a lot given just HOW bad Intel graphics are.

Raven RIdge is probably not going to match a RX 460, but it should be a major step up from anything current and MIGHT argue with low-end 1050/1050ti cards - and probably will BEAT 1030 cards.


I don't see Intel and AMD pairing up this way as a general thing though - I'm pretty sure this is an APPLE-specific initiative.
 

Shintai

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Dont confuse an overly expensive outdated Apple product demanded by Apple with what the rest of the market wants. This product will be an extremely low volume and overly high cost. Maybe as much as 800$ package.

3000$ MacBook Pro and 1000$ bare bone NUC is pretty much all you ever see this in for obvious reasons. And the last one isn't going to sell anything.
 

jwcalla

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Dont confuse an overly expensive outdated Apple product demanded by Apple with what the rest of the market wants. This product will be an extremely low volume and overly high cost. Maybe as much as 800$ package.

3000$ MacBook Pro and 1000$ bare bone NUC is pretty much all you ever see this in for obvious reasons. And the last one isn't going to sell anything.

This is pretty much how I see it. I'm not sure that Intel is going to sell many of these, and we all know that long-term Apple is probably going to start using their own processors.
 

stealthballer123

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the hyperbolic negative nonsense being pushed on forums for literally decades against AMD is unethical and causes all kinds of problems for small scale system builders like me and thousands of other guys.

when I build a poorer person a PC with amd inside it and they have a problem they google it and then start preaching to me about putting their computer together with parts the internet tells them are trash.

When I build my mom a PC that literally does everything she will ever want it to do for the rest of her life and she enters the wrong email password, she googles and then calls me asking me why I gave her a computer with amd inside when the internet says it doesn't work well...




You can disagree with me, that's fine, people spewing "amd is junk" all over the internet causes me and guys like me a bunch of issues, I would ask you folks to consider the ethics involved in doing so.
Have a good one.
 

Emission

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AMD APUs are pretty much junk. Not ALL that much faster than iris pro. I don't see the big deal here at all. It's gonna be slow

If it's 1050ti+ levels of performance then it might be something.

Junk in what sense? Historically speaking, Intel has been playing catch-up on the IGPU front for ages. Back when I was in college I had an A10 5800K that played games surprisingly well for the price point, and it was affordable for someone on a broke college student budget.
 

Shintai

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Junk in what sense? Historically speaking, Intel has been playing catch-up on the IGPU front for ages. Back when I was in college I had an A10 5800K that played games surprisingly well for the price point, and it was affordable for someone on a broke college student budget.

On the mobile front its the other way around tho. Since AMD chips cant operate well within the TDP limits.
 

THUMPer

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Whatever happens, I hope we start seeing 1080p laptop screens standard, instead of the 1366x768 shit that has plagued the market for years.
I think the Raven Ridge APU Laptops so far are all 1080p (y)
 

Shintai

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Whatever happens, I hope we start seeing 1080p laptop screens standard, instead of the 1366x768 shit that has plagued the market for years.
I think the Raven Ridge APU Laptops so far are all 1080p (y)

It got nothing to do with IGP, but price. The 2500U at HP starts at ~735$ and the Acer at 800€. But when people want 400$ laptops you have to cut.

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/laptops/envy-x360-204075--1#!&tab=vao
https://geizhals.at/?cat=nb&sort=p&xf=11609_1920x1080~9690_Raven+Ridge
 
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defaultluser

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It got nothing to do with IGP, but price. The 2500U at HP starts at ~735$ and the Acer at 800€. But when people want 400$ laptops you have to cut.

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/laptops/envy-x360-204075--1#!&tab=vao
https://geizhals.at/?cat=nb&sort=p&xf=11609_1920x1080~9690_Raven+Ridge

Right, the "hopes and dreams" of all the idiots on these forums keep coming up short.

AMD can't price their APUs lower than $600-$700 and still make money. There's just too much silicon dedicated to the GPU to charge entry-level prices for it.

And that that price point, they're beginning to compete with vastly more powerful quad-core GTX 1050 laptops, which start at under $800.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...cm_re=gtx_1050_laptops-_-34-861-167-_-Product

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...cm_re=gtx_1050_laptops-_-34-154-734-_-Product

These AMD GPUs on Intel's packages will cost even more than these Nvidia laptops due to the HBM2. Versus just 4 chips of GDDR5.
 

Emission

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Makes you wonder then, if they're not price competitive then why are they bothering?
 

THUMPer

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Right, the "hopes and dreams" of all the idiots on these forums keep coming up short.

AMD can't price their APUs lower than $600-$700 and still make money. There's just too much silicon dedicated to the GPU to charge entry-level prices for it.

And that that price point, they're beginning to compete with vastly more powerful quad-core GTX 1050 laptops, which start at under $800.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...cm_re=gtx_1050_laptops-_-34-861-167-_-Product

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...cm_re=gtx_1050_laptops-_-34-154-734-_-Product

These AMD GPUs on Intel's packages will cost even more than these Nvidia laptops due to the HBM2. Versus just 4 chips of GDDR5.

Total performance is yet to be seen, but one thing raven ridge laptops have over these two laptops you posted is they are smaller and lighter. Also the HP only comes with a 65 watt power adapter, the others have 130Watt or more. Interesting nonetheless. HP is also not saying this is a "gaming" laptop. I'm sure those two on newegg will rip through minecraft without issue.
http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-convertible-laptop-15z-touch-1za07av-1
 

defaultluser

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Makes you wonder then, if they're not price competitive then why are they bothering?

Because Apple doesn't give a flying fuck about being price competitive.

If this allows them to make the Macbook Pro 1 mm thinner while upgrading the graphics from that crappy Polaris 11 chip, it will be worth the few hundred dollars.

Apple will pay whatever it costs to push their latest gimmick. Their users didn't balk at the cost of the last Pro going up $400.
 

Emission

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Because Apple doesn't give a flying fuck about being price competitive.

If this allows them to make the Macbook Pro 1 mm thinner while upgrading the graphics from that crappy Polaris 11 chip, it will be worth the few hundred dollars.

Apple will pay whatever it costs to push their latest gimmick. Their users didn't balk at the cost of the last Pro going up $400.

I don't know about didn't balk. I was considering one of the latest MacBook Pro's but opted not to purchase it because of the ridiculous price tag for what was already year-old hardware.
 

defaultluser

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I don't know about didn't balk. I was considering one of the latest MacBook Pro's but opted not to purchase it because of the ridiculous price tag for what was already year-old hardware.

Their sales numbers didn't go down.

There were people like you, but the vast majority threw caution to the wind.
 

Shintai

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Are you sure the HBM2 will be more expensive, if there is no longer an interposer?

Interposer cost 5-10$ extra as a static cost depending on size. 4GB modest clocked HBM2 cost around 90-100$.
 

defaultluser

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Are you sure the HBM2 will be more expensive, if there is no longer an interposer?

HBM2 is nearly three times the price for the same capacity.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3032-vega-56-cost-of-hbm2-and-necessity-to-use-it

8GB HBM2 = $150
8GB GDDR5 = around $60.

And that's completely ignoring the cost of the interposer, which the article estimates at $25.

If this AMD chip uses 4GB HBM2 ram, it will cost $50 more to make than a GTX 1050 with 4GB 128-bit GDDR5. Which means a retail price $100 higher (or more), which could completely kill this in notebook land.

And people are giving this GPU FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT. 3.3 Tflops is far less than the 4.9 tfliops the RX 470 is rated for.

This is only a little faster than full fat RX 560, so it will be competitive with the GTX 1050 Ti...for $100 higher.

How again will AMD make any inroads with a part like that?
 
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atmartens

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HBM2 is nearly three times the price for the same capacity.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3032-vega-56-cost-of-hbm2-and-necessity-to-use-it

8GB HBM2 = $150
8GB GDDR5 = around $60.

And that's completely ignoring the cost of the interposer, which the article estimates at $25.
That's interesting. I wonder what the price of HBM will look like over time, especially if supply is low due to manufacturing issues by SK Hynix. The power saving advantages could still be a big benefit, even if it's more expensive. We'll find out soon enough.
 

Caffeinated

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I think that nVidia is making a mistake. If 30% of your profit comes from a certain segment, you don't disrupt it. Much like "Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake" "Don't fix what isn't broken" is a strong reflection.
 

chenw

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My speculation is that it'll still be better than what the Iris is capable of, but not enough to approach dGPU chips in any meaningful way.

MX150 is about the upper limit I'd give to these guys. Still better than Iris 540 by a good margin, but not good enough to go near even 1050.
 

ChosenUno

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My speculation is that it'll still be better than what the Iris is capable of, but not enough to approach dGPU chips in any meaningful way.

MX150 is about the upper limit I'd give to these guys. Still better than Iris 540 by a good margin, but not good enough to go near even 1050.

I think this is for the premium lines of laptops. However there are plenty of premium thin-and-lights with great graphics at $1500 and above. So they only have between $800 and $1500 to duke it out with less premium, thicker and beefier laptops with 1050/1050Ti/1060 GPUs.

Cooling is still the main concern here. No point having everything on the same package when it's just gonna throttle to hell.

I just don't see the point of it to be honest.
 

Shintai

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That's interesting. I wonder what the price of HBM will look like over time, especially if supply is low due to manufacturing issues by SK Hynix. The power saving advantages could still be a big benefit, even if it's more expensive. We'll find out soon enough.

There is no power saving advantage with HBM2. That went away with GDDR5X and GDDR6.

Price will always be higher for HBM due to its construction. Samsung makes HBM2 as well and have done so a year before Hynix.
 

Shintai

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I think this is for the premium lines of laptops. However there are plenty of premium thin-and-lights with great graphics at $1500 and above. So they only have between $800 and $1500 to duke it out with less premium, thicker and beefier laptops with 1050/1050Ti/1060 GPUs.

Cooling is still the main concern here. No point having everything on the same package when it's just gonna throttle to hell.

I just don't see the point of it to be honest.

The product isn't going against Nvidia because it cant. Its a product going into 3000$ MacBook Pros and some unsellable NUCs. And that's it. It will never go outside that. And Apple owners will yet again have to look with envy at others with better performance and lower power usage.
 

NKD

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AMD APUs are pretty much junk. Not ALL that much faster than iris pro. I don't see the big deal here at all. It's gonna be slow

If it's 1050ti+ levels of performance then it might be something.

You clearly didn’t understand the op. This isn’t your typical AMD Apu
 

defaultluser

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There is no power saving advantage with HBM2. That went away with GDDR5X and GDDR6.

Price will always be higher for HBM due to its construction. Samsung makes HBM2 as well and have done so a year before Hynix.

Is power consumption similarly reduced for GDDR5, versus the "spec" used in those graphs in the article?

Even if the power consumption is still as high as the original spec, the best these HBM2 parts can do is match the power efficiency of Nvidia.
 

Shintai

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Is power consumption similarly reduced for GDDR5, versus the "spec" used in those graphs in the article?

Even if the power consumption is still as high as the original spec, the best these HBM2 parts can do is match the power efficiency of Nvidia.

Hynix says the power consumption reduction for GDDR6 is the same as for HBM2 over GDDR5. Because they list the reduction as the same amount. So the myth that HBM2 is some kind of energy saving grace is busted.
 

defaultluser

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Hynix says the power consumption reduction for GDDR6 is the same as for HBM2 over GDDR5. Because they list the reduction as the same amount. So the myth that HBM2 is some kind of energy saving grace is busted.

Well yeah, but if the mainstream GDDR5 parts that are shipping in all mainstream notebooks still have the same high power consumption then there is an advantage here.

Have you found any news stating that the same power consumption reductions in GDDR6 have filtered down to GDDR5?

The advantage would at-best match Nvidia's perf/watt. But with the extra cost of HBM2.
 

Shintai

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Well yeah, but if the mainstream GDDR5 parts that are shipping in all mainstream notebooks still have the same high power consumption then there is an advantage here.

Have you found any news stating that the same power consumption reductions in GDDR6 have filtered down to GDDR5?

The advantage would at-best match Nvidia's perf/watt. But with the extra cost of HBM2.

GDDR5 wont get any benefit. Its GDDR5X and GDDR6 vs HBM2 and they are ~equal. HBM2 holds 2 advantages and its size and free ECC. Everything else is equal or a disadvantage.
 

Caffeinated

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AMD APUs are pretty much junk. Not ALL that much faster than iris pro. I don't see the big deal here at all. It's gonna be slow

If it's 1050ti+ levels of performance then it might be something.

Main difference - not just faster but compatible. I'm not even going to pretend that Intel graphics are compatible with anything newer than a year later, because they have issues. AMD has graphics driver issues, as does NVidia on occasion, but compared to Intel drivers? Honey, you will be screaming for Savage4 drivers and SiS drivers before you want Intel to write a graphics driver.

The best thing going for Intel graphics is that they have enormous room for improvement.
 
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