So everyone is doing the water puddle

AlexisRO

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Remember when Shader Model 3.0 came in and most of the games that were using it, we're abusing it making scenes glass like, for example? And not only that, almost all new graphical technologies are abused/exaggerated to a certain point. Once DXR is more common we will see more realistic implementations for it. Until then, nothing new on what's happening. And seeing that you can turn it off, i see it as a non issue.
 

spine

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Remember when Shader Model 3.0 came in and most of the games that were using it, we're abusing it making scenes glass like, for example? And not only that, almost all new graphical technologies are abused/exaggerated to a certain point. Once DXR is more common we will see more realistic implementations for it. Until then, nothing new on what's happening. And seeing that you can turn it off, i see it as a non issue.
I remember pixel shading bringing all the sea and waves!

Then DX10 bringing all the smoke and fog...
 

Armenius

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The puddle reflection is the easiest way to illustrate ray tracing effects to a passerby. More subtle things like lighting occlusion and dynamic light mapping will not give the "wow" factor they want to get people's attention.
 

Stoly

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Thing is that over exagerating reflections looks unrealistic to say the least. Everything is too shiny.

I was jogging last night and I saw several water puddles, they don't look anywhere near as reflective as they look in these games.

I think global illumination and shadows are the best use for ray tracing. Putting mirrors on every surface, not so much.
 

SvenBent

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the wath dog comparison has horrible puddles IMHO. they look really artificial with hard cutovers like there is not depth in the puddle
 

spine

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Thing is that over exagerating reflections looks unrealistic to say the least. Everything is too shiny.

I was jogging last night and I saw several water puddles, they don't look anywhere near as reflective as they look in these games.

I think global illumination and shadows are the best use for ray tracing. Putting mirrors on every surface, not so much.
What gets me is that reflections aren't something we've EVER had a problem with. It was solved back with Duke Nukem3D for fuck's sake, so why are we spending $1000+ on a graphics card just to render a mirror using RTX hardware?! :confused::wacky:
 

viivo

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New and emerging technology and rendering techniques are great, but don't people spend most of their time in a game moving around and looking in all directions? Eye candy means nothing when it's all in the periphery of your vision and blurred by movement.

Will have to remember to stop every once in a while and admire the ground in order to justify the performance hit.
 

Comixbooks

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Control does some RTX stuff and Metro Exodus's dlc. You have to figure RTX just came out so the tool sets maybe in the started stage.
 

Dayaks

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New and emerging technology and rendering techniques are great, but don't people spend most of their time in a game moving around and looking in all directions? Eye candy means nothing when it's all in the periphery of your vision and blurred by movement.

Will have to remember to stop every once in a while and admire the ground in order to justify the performance hit.
I really like it when they use it for global illumination.

The part I liked for BFV is a tank or explosion in an offscreen area would light up the walls of an adjacent area. So it’s just not a shiny puddle, it’s everything, the shiny puddle is just the most obvious.

I also agree with a lot of comments they go a bit overboard with the shiny sometimes. It’s so shiny..

I actually agree with Jensen for cards over ~$700. Buying something that much without RT... I just couldn’t do it. Ignore the Radeon VII in my signature lol.
 
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Snowdog

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I really like it when they use it for global illumination.

The part I liked for BFV is a tank or explosion in an offscreen area would light up the walls of an adjacent area. So it’s just not a shiny puddle, it’s everything, the shiny puddle is just the most obvious.

I also agree with a lot of comments they go a bit overboard with the shiny sometimes. It’s so shiny..

I actually agree with Jensen for cards over ~$700. Buying something that much without RT... I just couldn’t do it. Ignore the Radeon VII in my signature lol.

Agree. Global illumination is where it's at. Beautiful subtle shadows bring new levels of depth and weight to scenes, but unfortunately "subtle" details are often overlooked, so we get concentration on the obvious, in your face effects, like sharp reflections.

So far what I like best is from Metro Exodus:
https://hardforum.com/threads/metro-2033-exodus-and-ray-tracing.1983221/page-5#post-1044254692

Look at the first picture alone, and it looks fine, but then look at the second with RT on, how the subtle shadows add depth.

Or hell even the often mocked Q2 RTX and now Minecraft with RTX. GI transforms those flat low poly objects and gives them depth.
 

Stoly

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Most new graphics tech starts this way. Overuse, performance hit, etc. However, you have to start somewhere and it will get better with time.
I agree. I recall when motion blur and DoF effects were introduced they were performance hogs and boy they looked fugly
 
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graphics are getting more detailed as always, but not realistic- and they dont seem to be getting better at that. Same with special effects and movies. More detail, more gpu requirements, but no one is taking a step back and asking "does this look real?" assuming the intent is to represent more closely what our eyes see around us or even in video recordings. The biggest jump ive ever seen has been deepfakes.

they dont ever figure it out in any game generation, whether it was the new hype of ragdolls, smoke, water, motion cap, rigging faces... eveything still looks like the source engine with a giant coat of paint on it to me. they just care that they are on par with their competitors in the same gen. im never impressed anymore. its jsut this over and over and over every year but with more detail and horsepower-
ragdoll.jpg
 

KATEKATEKATE

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if I have to have a gripe abt raytraced reflections, it's that they keep showing off the puddle instead of the lake/river/ocean. Regular screenspace reflections can already look pretty great in the cramped spaces that seem to be the go-to for RT demos (indoors/underground/dark alleys) but they utterly fall apart in wide-open areas.

Let me walk next to a lake and not be distracted by how godawful the reflections look unless I stand perfectly still looking in a specific direction in.a specific location and I'll be impressed** I care very little about moderately nicer puddles and neon, just screenspace it and give me the frames ffs.

**(I know BFV does this, I don't have any desire to play BFV)

Raytraced GI/AO/Indirect Lighting is whats up though. To my photographer eye (have spent many many years doing natural light architecture photography) even Metro's first-try attempt looked fantastic all things considered.
 

Stoly

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if I have to have a gripe abt raytraced reflections, it's that they keep showing off the puddle instead of the lake/river/ocean. Regular screenspace reflections can already look pretty great in the cramped spaces that seem to be the go-to for RT demos (indoors/underground/dark alleys) but they utterly fall apart in wide-open areas.

Let me walk next to a lake and not be distracted by how godawful the reflections look unless I stand perfectly still looking in a specific direction in.a specific location and I'll be impressed** I care very little about moderately nicer puddles and neon, just screenspace it and give me the frames ffs.

**(I know BFV does this, I don't have any desire to play BFV)

Raytraced GI/AO/Indirect Lighting is whats up though. To my photographer eye (have spent many many years doing natural light architecture photography) even Metro's first-try attempt looked fantastic all things considered.
You have a good point. Those reflections can already be done with screenspace reflections, there's no need to use RT. Its just a waste of resources.
 

Snowdog

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One more thing that occurs about the puddle reflections. I think everyone is trying to channel "Blade Runner" (possibly my favorite movie of all time) with it moody rain soaked streets.

But I don't think it every stopped raining in BR, so there wasn't a clear puddle to do a reflection. :)
 

kasakka

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My beef with the puddles is that they are perfectly reflective in everything I've seen. That doesn't really happen all the time. Where are my muddy slightly reflective puddles?

In fact everything that uses raytraced reflections seems to go for fully reflective surfaces when we need only partially reflective ones. Is there an issue just toning down the reflection with current software?
 

Snowdog

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My beef with the puddles is that they are perfectly reflective in everything I've seen. That doesn't really happen all the time. Where are my muddy slightly reflective puddles?

In fact everything that uses raytraced reflections seems to go for fully reflective surfaces when we need only partially reflective ones. Is there an issue just toning down the reflection with current software?
No technical issue toning it down at all.

It's just overdone because they want to make it super obvious and in your face. It's like the TV's on "Display Mode" to make them pop more for the part of the population that can't appreciate subtlety.

Though on the flip-side. Some of the nicest RT Effects I have seen were in Metro Exodus, and there we have people complaining that they can't see anything happening at all. :(

So maybe hitting people with the "visual brick" is what works for the most people.
 

spine

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No technical issue toning it down at all.

It's just overdone because they want to make it super obvious and in your face. It's like the TV's on "Display Mode" to make them pop more for the part of the population that can't appreciate subtlety.

Though on the flip-side. Some of the nicest RT Effects I have seen were in Metro Exodus, and there we have people complaining that they can't see anything happening at all. :(

So maybe hitting people with the "visual brick" is what works for the most people.
All they need to do is add a slider to control the emphasis of it, and that would really bring it into focus as users tinker with it to their heart's content.
 

Stoly

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I guess is somewhat similar to HDR tvs where they display over saturated and super bright images.
 
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