SM3.0, vertex texturing with benchmark...

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Terra

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I have previously pointed out that ATI is missing the vertex texturing feature, just to get told that it didn't matter because ATI's "workaround" would be just as fast.
Well, according to this X-bit labs Sapphire RADEON X1800 XL benchmark it DOES matter.
I qoute:

Graphics processors from the RADEON X1000 series do not support vertex texturing, but flight sims from Maddox Games do use this feature. That’s why the Shader Model 3.0 rendering mode of Pacific Fighters does not work with RADEON X1000 cards. Yet even working in the game’s Shader Model 2.0 mode, the Sapphire RADEON X1800 XL is by far slower than the GeForce 7800 GT. High fps rate is no less important for a flight sim than for a shooter with first-person view. It means that this game won’t be playable on the reviewed graphics card at high resolutions.
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Now will people still claim that this is "SM3.0 done right"?

Terra...
 
You have tried this argument before. And you have been told before, that it would not work on ATi hardware, no matter if ATi supported it via hardware anways. As it was coded specifically for NV hardware. You continually try to prove this feature is so important, when it is not. How many games use it after 2+ years of SM3 capable cards have been out? One. And as I said, in Pacific Fighters, its NV specific, and wouldnt work even if ATi had hardware support for it. In the next year, if more games come out with this feature, and they are faster because of it, then you would have a case. As of now, you do not, again.

It has also been brought up to your attention that there is no proof the NV cards are faster than ATi cards in Pacific Fighters, because of vertex fetch. If you could somehow turn it off, run the game and see the framerate difference, then you would be onto something. NV cards have historically been faster than ATi cards in OpenGL for many years. Such is the case In Pacific Fighters, Riddick, and others. Some cards just run faster than others, in different games. There are games that ATi cards run better than NV cards. Its just the way it is.
 
fallguy said:
You have tried this argument before. And you have been told before, that it would not work on ATi hardware, no matter if ATi supported it via hardware anways. As it was coded specifically for NV hardware. You continually try to prove this feature is so important, when it is not. How many games use it after 2+ years of SM3 capable cards have been out? One. And as I said, in Pacific Fighters, its NV specific, and wouldnt work even if ATi had hardware support for it. In the next year, if more games come out with this feature, and they are faster because of it, then you would have a case. As of now, you do not, again.

It has also been brought up to your attention that there is no proof the NV cards are faster than ATi cards in Pacific Fighters, because of vertex fetch. If you could somehow turn it off, run the game and see the framerate difference, then you would be onto something. NV cards have historically been faster than ATi cards in OpenGL for many years. Such is the case In Pacific Fighters, Riddick, and others. Some cards just run faster than others, in different games. There are games that ATi cards run better than NV cards. Its just the way it is.
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Did you even read bother to read what Alexey Stepin wrote in his review? :)
But I still find it funny how a "SM3.0 done right" card needs to resort to SM2.0 :D
And are you saying the the vertex texturing feature is not part of SM3.0, but a "feature" that NVIDIA invented? :rolleyes:

Terra - "SM3.0 done right" = fallback to SM2.0? :confused:
 
All apologies from the usual suspect. :D

I'd be willing to bet that the R580 will support VTF. It's a huge omission in the current X1xxx chips.
 
Terra said:
Did you even read bother to read what Alexey Stepin wrote in his review? :)
But I still find it funny how a "SM3.0 done right" card needs to resort to SM2.0 :D
And are you saying the the vertex texturing feature is not part of SM3.0, but a "feature" that NVIDIA invented? :rolleyes:

Terra - "SM3.0 done right" = fallback to SM2.0? :confused:
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Yes I read it. Did you even read what I posted? The ATi cards dont play the game as fast as NV cards. We all know this. Even when ATi cards are at 2.0, and NV cards are at 3.0. As I said, this is the case in other games as well, for both camps. Some games just run faster on different hardware.

As I said twice in the above post, even it the ATi cards supported it via hardware, it still wouldnt work in Pacific Fighters.

And yes it is an optional part of SM3, and I never said NV invented it. Please dont put words in my mouth.

So what we have here, is one game of 2+ years of SM3 that use it. And it is a NV only feature in that game, because it is coded that way. Can you give a list of other games that will use it in the future? I mean, because its so important, you must have a whole list. Also, do you have proof that the NV cards run Pacific Fighters faster than ATi cards, because of this feature? I dont see any.
 
fallguy said:
Yes I read it. Did you even read what I posted? The ATi cards dont play the game as fast as NV cards. We all know this. Even when ATi cards are at 2.0, and NV cards are at 3.0. As I said, this is the case in other games as well, for both camps. Some games just run faster on different hardware.
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I don't understand your argumentation?
SM3.0 boost (the possibility of) preformance increase over SM2.0
Does this suprise you?

As I said twice in the above post, even it the ATi cards supported it via hardware, it still wouldnt work in Pacific Fighters.

And yes it is an optional part of SM3, and I never said NV invented it. Please dont put words in my mouth.
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So my point still stands:
"SM3.0 done right" = fallback to SM2.0...woohoo :rolleyes:

So what we have here, is one game of 2+ years of SM3 that use it. And it is a NV only feature in that game, because it is coded that way. Can you give a list of other games that will use it in the future? I mean, because its so important, you must have a whole list. Also, do you have proof that the NV cards run Pacific Fighters faster than ATi cards, because of this feature? I dont see any.
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Fact is that we HAVE a SM3.0 game that uses it.
You can't ignore that...or that X1x00 cards need to use SM2.0 in the game.

Terra - This wouldn't have been a big deal...if ATI hadn't said "SM3.0 done right" ;)
 
:rolleyes:

Once again, It was SPECIFICALLY CODED for Nvidia's card.


Pacific fighters isn't even to spec.


Cased closed.
 
Netrat33 said:
Pacific fighters isn't even to spec.
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Are you saying that PF is not a SM3.0 game? :)


Cased closed.
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Not by a long shot ;)
You can say it all you want too, but your are no "jugde" or "dictator", so while it might be your opinion, it dosn't make it a fact...

Terra - What happend to the "ATI's workaround is better"-argument? :)
 
Terra said:
Are you saying that PF is not a SM3.0 game? :)




Not by a long shot ;)
You can say it all you want too, but your are no "jugde" or "dictator", so while it might be your opinion, it dosn't make it a fact...

Terra - What happend to the "ATI's workaround is better"-argument? :)
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Amazed at how long they allow you to troll.
You want to play ignorant, than you just seem like a fool who doesn't want to learn so you don't add anymore to the argument. (Fallguy already pointed out the thread that you started long time ago where you were already proven over and over again, but I guess your a sore loser in the debate game so you want to try and start a flame war up again.)

I never said PF isn't a SM3 game. The texture fetching is specifically coded to run ONLY on Nvidia cards.

and the word is "Judge"

Edit: my bad. Fallguys link was different then the one I remembered. Also apologize to Terra in this instance because I can't find the thread and it might have been from another user. The topic though has been beaten to death.
 
Ya, problem is I dont think terra understands. I can bring up old games that use features that neither nvidia or ati's new video cards support. Its hard not to troll terra when he brings up such bad agruements.
 
from what ive read here it seems the game is coded so that it only allows the feature to be used by NV cards. however that may only be the case because it doesnt work on ATi hardware. no point in enableing support for a feature the card doesnt support. that may sort of be the point terra is trying to make is that because ATi has not added this, that games have resorted to coding around the ATi cards, and this ends up making performance lower for ATi than NV.


i have no info other than whats in this thread so cant really judge for myself.
 
CEREAL_KILLER said:
from what ive read here it seems the game is coded so that it only allows the feature to be used by NV cards. however that may only be the case because it doesnt work on ATi hardware. no point in enableing support for a feature the card doesnt support. that may sort of be the point terra is trying to make is that because ATi has not added this, that games have resorted to coding around the ATi cards, and this ends up making performance lower for ATi than NV.


i have no info other than whats in this thread so cant really judge for myself.
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The game is old and not a top tier title. Very little support will ever come into this game.
It would almost be like arguing why the game "Stolen" doesn't have HDR support.
 
Netrat33 said:
I never said PF isn't a SM3 game. The texture fetching is specifically coded to run ONLY on Nvidia cards.
Click to expand...

Are you not saying that the game could be coded to use vertex texturing on ATI cards if the devolper choose too? :confused:
Of course it's coded to run on NVIDIA cards, ATI cards dosn't have this feature...or a "counterfeature"...

and the word is "Judge"
Click to expand...

Capital "J"?
Funny :)

Edit: my bad. Fallguys link was different then the one I remembered. Also apologize to Terra in this instance because I can't find the thread and it might have been from another user. The topic though has been beaten to death.
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No need to apologize to me, I'm no crybaby :)

But I guess only FPS games count..to hell with other games...if you know anything about fligth-sims you will find that IL2/PF is quite the deal amongst gamers...

Terra - I still don't have seen any indication in real-world preformance that "SM3.0 done right" is done right...
 
ClearM4 said:
Ya, problem is I dont think terra understands. I can bring up old games that use features that neither nvidia or ati's new video cards support. Its hard not to troll terra when he brings up such bad agruements.
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I just find it funny that "SM3.0 done right" can't run a SM3.0 game in SM3.0 mode ;)

Terra - I didn't invent "SM3.0 done right"...ATI did..blame them for bad argumentation ;)
 
Netrat33 said:
The game is old and not a top tier title. Very little support will ever come into this game.
It would almost be like arguing why the game "Stolen" doesn't have HDR support.
Click to expand...

Almost...

Terra - But "almost" dosn't cut it :)
 
Terra said:
I just find it funny that "SM3.0 done right" can't run a SM3.0 game in SM3.0 mode ;)

Terra - I didn't invent "SM3.0 done right"...ATI did..blame them for bad argumentation ;)
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Don't you have to put this game into opengl rendering for this water effect to work, and the game uses nvidia specific extensions for the water effect?

If the game had been using directx, ati's team could have coded an universal driver tweak with there vtf alternative.

I'm glad ati dont waste there time writing a driver hack that would work for just this little game.

Edit: If you want to make another useless thread, start bitching about that ati cards cant run Nvidias own demos thats usings nvidias own opengl extensions.

spank - who dont think that sm3 is an official opengl spec
 
ATI appears to have a problem on their hands.
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Wait till a game arrives which use some real dynamic branching, then we'll see who has a problem with SM3.0.

Luckily for Nvidia, 99% of the games are TWIMTBP, so devs will be "nice" for Nv = avoiding dyn branching.
 
I think this thread is useless and it's garbage that's been argued and bitched over before. All this is/will turn into is flamefest '06. :eek:
 
Spank said:
Don't you have to put this game into opengl rendering for this water effect to work, and the game uses nvidia specific extensions for the water effect?

If the game had been using directx, ati's team could have coded an universal driver tweak with there vtf alternative.

I'm glad ati dont waste there time writing a driver hack that would work for just this little game.

Edit: If you want to make another useless thread, start bitching about that ati cards cant run Nvidias own demos thats usings nvidias own opengl extensions.

spank - who dont think that sm3 is an official opengl spec
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Vertex texture IS a part of SM3.0:
Linky:

As for OpenGL, there is a reson for the "Open" in OpenGL...it's an open standard ;)

Terra - But hard to code for a missing feature in "SM3.0 done right"...
 
CEREAL_KILLER said:
from what ive read here it seems the game is coded so that it only allows the feature to be used by NV cards. however that may only be the case because it doesnt work on ATi hardware. no point in enableing support for a feature the card doesnt support. that may sort of be the point terra is trying to make is that because ATi has not added this, that games have resorted to coding around the ATi cards, and this ends up making performance lower for ATi than NV.


i have no info other than whats in this thread so cant really judge for myself.
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Depends, there are nV extensions that are for SM 3.0 in Ogl, but all those extensions have been adopted into Ogl to my knowledge, depending on which extension the developer decided to use will let the engine run in sm 3.0 on ATi cards. But in any case the specific effect won't run at all.

I saw almost no difference speed wise with either the render to vertex buffer that ATi implimented over nV's texture fetch so now we are sit in a limbo, where ATi saves money on transitor count, and need two different shaders to output the same results.
 
Apple740 said:
Wait till a game arrives which use some real dynamic branching, then we'll see who has a problem with SM3.0.

Luckily for Nvidia, 99% of the games are TWIMTBP, so devs will be "nice" for Nv = avoiding dyn branching.
Click to expand...


Yeah kinda flipped from ATi was turning developers away from dynamic flow control on thier x800's ;). Thats just part of the game, but I don't see ATi adding in vertex texture fetch (edit) any time soon as nV will be fixing thier branching speed. Maybe for thier r600 though.
 
Terra said:
Vertex texture IS a part of SM3.0:
Linky:

As for OpenGL, there is a reson for the "Open" in OpenGL...it's an open standard ;)

Terra - But hard to code for a missing feature in "SM3.0 done right"...
Click to expand...

Did i say that vtf was not part of sm3 ?

It is actually rather easy to code for, but since those coders that made the pacific fighters engine was using nvidia extensions in OPENGL, instead of coding a directx engine following microsoft specs.

If the coders had programed the game following the specs of SM3, the game could have worked sometime in the future on ati's x1x00 when more games started to use this future and the workaround would been implemented in the drivers.

If carmack had left the nvidia extension opengl path in doom3, would you have bitched that ati couldent run that also?

spank - who thinks flight sims needs the best AF instead of fancy looking water
 
Apple740 said:
Wait till a game arrives which use some real dynamic branching, then we'll see who has a problem with SM3.0.

Luckily for Nvidia, 99% of the games are TWIMTBP, so devs will be "nice" for Nv = avoiding dyn branching.
Click to expand...
It takes years to make a good game. And for the last 2 years the only cards supporting SM3.0 were from NVIDIA so games have been coded on these cards for at least 2 years now.

The XboX 360 does have a VTF and it would not suprise me to see cross platform games that make use of it.

Both of these issues will hurt the current generation of ATI cards.
 
Wait. So there is more games out which support sm2.0b rendering path than VTF? Has a game used ati's workaround yet either?
 
Spank said:
Did i say that vtf was not part of sm3 ?

It is actually rather easy to code for, but since those coders that made the pacific fighters engine was using nvidia extensions in OPENGL, instead of coding a directx engine following microsoft specs.

If the coders had programed the game following the specs of SM3, the game could have worked sometime in the future on ati's x1x00 when more games started to use this future and the workaround would been implemented in the drivers.

If carmack had left the nvidia extension opengl path in doom3, would you have bitched that ati couldent run that also?

spank - who thinks flight sims needs the best AF instead of fancy looking water
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Its not that easy to code for compaired to VTF ;). The engine is Ogl, why do they have to follow dx specs (sm 3.0 is dx specs, there is no such thing as sm 3.0 in Ogl)?

That could easily be turned around like this, If ATi was more forth coming with Ogl, they might actually have had a work around for this. They still can do it in thier drivers I'm sure. But they won't since its Ogl
 
Brent_Justice said:
I can't wait till SM 4.0 and DX10/WGF 2.0, hopefully these things won't be an issue anymore.
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QFT!!!!

It just plain stupid arguing over this subject. Games dont hardly utilize SM3.0 yet. By the time alot of games do utililize it, SM 4.0 will be out.
 
After reading the rest of this thread I have to jump on the ATI band wagon. It may not be 100% SM3.0 done right, but I think it is closer than nVidia to doing it right.
 
Brent_Justice said:
I can't wait till SM 4.0 and DX10/WGF 2.0, hopefully these things won't be an issue anymore.
Click to expand...


lol maybe but knowing M$ probably make something thats half baked :D.

anyhow just 2 cents, render to vertex buffer has some nicities to it, much more flexible and allows filtering also, but because of its flexibility could cause programming headaches if not planned for.

Almost forgot, Merry Christamas everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
honestly, we don't even know how much hurt ati products will be over this, why are we nailing the coffin down before anyone dies?
 
Brent_Justice said:
I can't wait till SM 4.0 and DX10/WGF 2.0, hopefully these things won't be an issue anymore.
Click to expand...

Did you ever get around to doing a comparions of the SM3.0 certification of NVIDIA's and ATI's solutions? :)

Terra...
 
Terra said:
Vertex texture IS a part of SM3.0:
Linky:

As for OpenGL, there is a reson for the "Open" in OpenGL...it's an open standard ;)

Terra - But hard to code for a missing feature in "SM3.0 done right"...
Click to expand...
Yes, VTF is a required part of SM3. But, the texture formats for it (if any) are completely optional. So ATI did include VTF, it's just that it doesn't work with any file formats, effectively making it an "optional" feature.
 
Terra said:
Almost...

Terra - But "almost" dosn't cut it :)
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Well it does in this case. Flight sims aren't the savior of the PC gaming industry. So there is very little in the sence of supporting more cards (at the time of the game's release there was only one videocard capable of sm3. Once again, the game was coded outside of sm3 vertex fetching specs. So there still is no game using it TO sm3 specs.
 
Netrat33 said:
Well it does in this case. Flight sims aren't the savior of the PC gaming industry. So there is very little in the sence of supporting more cards (at the time of the game's release there was only one videocard capable of sm3. Once again, the game was coded outside of sm3 vertex fetching specs. So there still is no game using it TO sm3 specs.
Click to expand...


how can you code outside sm 3.0 specs when the game is Ogl? sm 3.0 specs don't apply to this engine, functionality aside I mean.
 
Leave it to Terra to troll on Christmas. GOOD JOB TERRA!! Santa has an extra helping of coal for your stocking you big cuddly troll you. ..|.. ;)
 
fallguy said:
You have tried this argument before. And you have been told before, that it would not work on ATi hardware, no matter if ATi supported it via hardware anways. As it was coded specifically for NV hardware. You continually try to prove this feature is so important, when it is not. How many games use it after 2+ years of SM3 capable cards have been out? One. And as I said, in Pacific Fighters, its NV specific, and wouldnt work even if ATi had hardware support for it. In the next year, if more games come out with this feature, and they are faster because of it, then you would have a case. As of now, you do not, again.

It has also been brought up to your attention that there is no proof the NV cards are faster than ATi cards in Pacific Fighters, because of vertex fetch. If you could somehow turn it off, run the game and see the framerate difference, then you would be onto something. NV cards have historically been faster than ATi cards in OpenGL for many years. Such is the case In Pacific Fighters, Riddick, and others. Some cards just run faster than others, in different games. There are games that ATi cards run better than NV cards. Its just the way it is.
Click to expand...

Terra just got owned.! Terra = liberals, fallguy = conservitives, and conservitives won the electrion BOOYA!

ALso let me guess, Terra is from Denmark, I bet hes an anti-American liberal. Yes or no!?
 
Netrat33 said:
Well it does in this case. Flight sims aren't the savior of the PC gaming industry. So there is very little in the sence of supporting more cards (at the time of the game's release there was only one videocard capable of sm3. Once again, the game was coded outside of sm3 vertex fetching specs. So there still is no game using it TO sm3 specs.
Click to expand...

I agree that arguing about this is kinda silly...not like one flight sim is going to break ATi...and I think their dynamic branching advantage outweighs this texture fetch issue...

And to ATi... this is what happens when you don't push the technological envelope...by the time you catch up...all the PS3.0 software out there is optimized to run on your competitors hardware...
 
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