Skill and MMORPGs

Techx

Supreme [H]ardness
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Interesting article, and although it seems the writer is somewhat biased, I happen to agree with him. Opinions?

Linkage
 
MMORPG's and any RPG really don't take skill. Not in the same sense. Its more decision making ability and competant use of the game interface and a good working knowledge of that interface.

So there is a small degree of skill where games like that are concerned. Not much, certainly nothing compared to an FPS game. So I'd rank their difficulty as easy as hell. It just takes more time than anything. If you've got the time I think anyone can build a uber high level character.
 
Its true that any idiot mage (for example) in WoW can spam a fireball and probably get to level 60 in PvE, but throw that guy against another mage with skill in PvP, and he will get owned, every time, same as with Fatality. PvE helps the casual player have some fun and feel like they accomplished something. If I want a challenge, I'll do some PvP. I would compare Warsong Gulch in WoW (which is 10v10 CTF with WoW characters) to CTF in UnrealTournament or another FPS. Some things carry over between the games: knowledge of the map, teamwork, element of surprise, etc.

The skill requirement that separates the true FPS is quick reflexes and hand-eye coordination (follow the target, lead them). There is not much diversity between players (Quake DM), or the diversity is limited and known beforehand (classes in BF2). For an MMRPG, its a more tactical battle because the fights generally last longer and there is much more variation. Look at the number of combat skills my medic in BF2 has versus my mage in WoW.

BF2:
offense: knife, pistol, rifle-single, rifle-auto, grenade, shock paddles
defense: revive, med-kit, throw med-kit, sprint

WoW:
offense: Cone of cold, sheep, scorch, frost nova, counterspell, fireblast, blastwave, arcane explosion, wand, fireball, presence of mind, frost bolt (level 1), frost bolt (max level), flamestrike, blizzard, arcane missiles
defense: blink, heal potion, mana potion, bandages, speed potion, frost/flame shield, mana shield, mount

How many skills can you limit yourself to before you're gimped? I can pick 5 in BF2 and still do most of what I always do. Picking 5 from WoW becomes much more difficult. Its probably worse for some of the other classes in WoW (pets?), I haven't included using items or racial abilities, and the lists are very different for another class. Attack, choose the right attack to counter his, time it just right, etc. Is this mage spec'ed the same as the last one? or is it a frost or elemental mage? what if its really a warlock with a hidden pet?

Some skills carry over, but at the core I think they are different. Fast-paced reactions and hand-eye coordination vs. class specific tactical knowledge.
 
MMORPG = Time playing = "Skilled"
Anything else = Time practicing = Skilled

more Time = more Skill

If you spend 100 hours playing basketball outside, you will probably gain as much "skill" as someone who spent 100 hours on an RPG is regarded.

Although i see the difference, they are both still the same thing. The more time you put in, the more "skilled" you are sought as, technically or litterally.
 
The problem with most MMORPG PvP is that there is no level playing field. Sure, skill makes a difference, and it inherently affects the outcome of any game. However, items, armor, weapons, and level all play in as well. Arguably, they do so in a much greater way in MMORPGS. This being the case, skill has far less consolation to offer than in FPS games. What I'm getting at is that you cannot have a true competition unless the field is completely even. Take...counterstrike for example. Everyone has access to the same kinds of weapons (arguably, terrorists have better weapons, or vice versa, but in competition, teams usually switch sides halfway through anyway.) In MMORPGS, you don't have that kind of level playing field. Skill plays a much smaller part in these games.
 
Good article. Perfectly sums up WoW... everyone is lvl 60, not many really have a clue what's going on, and only those that play all day long have all the uber armor... but they still suck at the end of the day.
 
They all work the same as the Pokemon games for gameboy....its all simple stuff...it does not require any skill (unless you call spending all day on the game just to get 2 gold to buy some stupid enchanted sword skill) im an avid FPS gamer, and MMORPGs do bore me now, i enjoyed my one month free everquest trial, but i grew tired of killing flying buzzards in order to loot there corpses of stuff to sell.....
 
Huh? FPS games take significant skill?

Wait, games take significant skill?
 
ashmedai said:
Huh? FPS games take significant skill?

Wait, games take significant skill?

Wait... baseball takes skill? Just hit the ball and run, right?
 
More than a video game that's deliberately kept dumbed down so it'll appeal to more potential buyers. Complete idiots that shouldn't be near a computer to start with aside.
 
You forget about talent. Some people have more Talent in an FPS or MMO, and therefore are more skilled.
 
ashmedai said:
Huh? FPS games take significant skill?

Wait, games take significant skill?


Huh, getting a 4.0 at MIT takes skill? It's just writing stuff down and filling in circles on a test :p

ashmedai said:
More than a video game that's deliberately kept dumbed down so it'll appeal to more potential buyers. Complete idiots that shouldn't be near a computer to start with aside.

This is why I love Far Cry, the game is fucking hard to most everyone, with experience in FPSs or not.
 
Wow that makes two bad attempts at a parallel to try to ridicule my opinion.

Video games are for entertainment folks, even if you're the bestest in the world at it, it's like being good at watching television.
 
ashmedai said:
Wow that makes two bad attempts at a parallel to try to ridicule my opinion.

Video games are for entertainment folks, even if you're the bestest in the world at it, it's like being good at watching television.

Not true, ever watch replays of some of the big leagues like CPL and ESWC? Getting sponsored and paid to play something compared to "watching television" isnt bad

I wasn't trying to ridicule your posts, just adding to the humor.
 
I was hoping for a couple more actually, then I could post something about the counting count.

Entertainment's entertainment...America's full of bored people with lots of spending cash. So there's a lot of money in it for companies or people that can do a good job of relieving peoples' boredom.
 
Techx said:
Interesting article, and although it seems the writer is somewhat biased, I happen to agree with him. Opinions?

Linkage

I agree with him on some points. I would say that MMORPGs take experience or knowledge and skill / talent is of little importance. Of course it takes items too, which are a pure time investment.

He compares FPS to certain sports where skill is a huge factor. a good highschool basketball player will get owned playing 1 on 1 against a superstar basketball player, sure. I would compare MMORPG competition more to something like poker. Where you make decisions based on probabilities, but those don't always work out. There are top level poker players, but you don't (and can't) have a "Michael Jordan" because there is chance involved... There are just hands where you do everything "correct" but you lose anyway just because the chance was not in your favor that time.

If you are of average skill, I would think that the MMORPG type of competition where you can still do pretty well once in a while is more entertaining overall (the whole games are supposed to be fun thing seems to have eluded the author).

I mean if I get into a UT2k4 game and someone is on who is "the ownzoror" then the game is kinda boring. He "ownzors" everyone else and the rest can't match up. Eventually people leave because it's not fun anymore. You pretty much know that if you see him you will die and he will live, and that takes most of the interest out of the whole thing... variety is the spice of life, and whether you are the "ownzoror" or the "ownzoree" you get bored.

This is why I think the "ownzorors" in FPS games are always such assholes to others. They get bored owning everyone, so they have to insult them to make things interesting. The entertainment comes from the variety of responses and how to answer them rather than the game itself.
 
Reminds me of that cs video a while back about sniping. The guy just sat there the entire round and never moved, and as soon as somone walked in his crosshair he shot and killed them. That my friends is true skill standing there and clicking a button :rolleyes:
 
Concillian said:
He compares FPS to certain sports where skill is a huge factor. a good highschool basketball player will get owned playing 1 on 1 against a superstar basketball player, sure. I would compare MMORPG competition more to something like poker. Where you make decisions based on probabilities, but those don't always work out. There are top level poker players, but you don't (and can't) have a "Michael Jordan" because there is chance involved... There are just hands where you do everything "correct" but you lose anyway just because the chance was not in your favor that time.

I don't know why he brings in sports with video games. Sports require more skill and hard work to get good or become excellent at. You have to train yourself both physically and mentally. Videogames also require work and time to get good at but all you do manipulate data with your fingers and without any interference. There is also a lot less pressure.
 
He's just got the same opinion i had when i was just starting. RPG's have a random factor that can actually make or break your character. You can wear elven armor and wield two handed ancient dwarven axes and still get killed in one hit by a gnome with a toothpick just because your ingame dice rolled a '1' :D

How would you like it if you aim for the guys head dead on, you shoot, and then miss coz the game gave you less than one in three chances to hit? Wanna see it in action? Go and play Morrowind :p

It's the kind of thinking someone new to the RPG scene would do. In other words, he's an RPG novice writing an article to rant out his frustrations :D
 
While I agree with some of the points I can't say I agree in all circumstances... no doubt WoW is one of the simpler MMORPG's and makes a prime example for this article.. when you look at FFXI you'd get a different feeling.

High level FFXI play (I was a lvl 70 White Mage) requires excellent teamwork, timing coordination, positionally being in the right place at the right time, maintaining your hate level is amazingly critical.

For me it was the only MMORPG I found to be enjoyable from a... "omg don't invite that guy he's a moron and can't maintain his aggro, he doesn't know how the hell to pull off a SATA is, he misses his renkai's etc etc"

In WoW.. seems like, while ya someone in your group could suck it probably won't get you killed repeatedly.

FFXI could be annoying to most people I imagine though.. I mean if you missed using your skill within 2 seconds more than like once in a group you're going to get kicked.. cause you suck. (FFXI groups required you to use "renkai's" which is something like use warrior weapon skill, 3 seconds later use dark knight skill, within 3 second after that the black mage had to be done casting his Firaga IV (which he had to start casting before the warrio even did anything to start the chain) to actually do some decent damage and have a "decent group".

Throwing all MMORPG's into a bucket like that is naive, I do look forward to some more difficult games though... I play WoW cause it's easy.. and that's nice sometimes but most of the time I like a nice challenge.
 
The article is nothing more than a rant, he talks of skill yet is unable to define it specifically. He praises FPSers for having "true" skill, yet condemns MMORPGers for having none. In reality, both types of players utilizes tactics, which in the case of the former, is more than just "quick thinking"... it's *true* skill.

Most of you will understand that FPS games (I'm thinking Quake, UT type FPSes btw) require a heck of a lot of strategic thinking just to survive. You need to decide exactly where you need to be, find out where your opponents are using subtle clues from the game, select which weapon gives you the best chance of taking out your opponent at whichever locations gives you whatever advantage, time everything precisely, and so on. Amateurs having less "skill", won't be able to compete simply because they failed to accomplish any of the above moves. In that sense, FPSs are sorta like chess.

Some MMORPGs are utter trash, I'll agree with him on that. But some do in fact require skill to play, the MMORPG I'm thinking of here is UO (Ultima Online). I won't argue on what that game is currently like, last I heard it was a piece of crap. But I will talk about how it used to be, which is relevant because it shows the true potential of MMORPGs gaming.

In the game, players don't "level up" their characters, the game revolves around gaining "skills" to improve their characters (as in real life). And there were plenty of skills to choose from. Characters aren't confined to specific cookiee cuts, where characters can only accomplish as much as their "class" allows them to. Players instead are given bread dough, they're able to mould and craft their characters to any specification their imagination lets them. So you'd see Fencing warriors that have baking and fishing skills. Blacksmiths that can chop trees, and play harps. Scripters that can blast mighty beasts with a single spell. Selecting exactly the right combination of character-skills to build a character that the player is naturally good at advancing, and later utilizing those very same character-skills to defeat opponents, is a very good example of skill, long-term skill. Semi-amateurs even powered with pre-knowledge of how the game works, can't exactly compete on that level.

We then move on to the combat system. As any nostalgic old UOer here knows, the combat system plays out very very much like a fast paced FPS, contrary to most of the trash out there today. Unfortunately, as with FPSs, certain players back then were advantaged due to their high speed connections, which wasn't good because most still used dial-ups. It became interesting when broadband players competed with each other.

Note:
Now unlike some other level-based MMORPGs, character-skills here can only go up to a certain point. Skills are divided in a sort of percentage system, 0.0 meant you've got nothing, 14.5 meant you were okay, 78.9 meant you were Adept at your skill, and 100.0 meant you're a Grandmaster at that skill. Characters are limited to just 700%, so players could either Grandmaster 7 skills, or be "okish" at several dozen. Most opted to Grandmastering 7 skills. Attributes played out pretty much the same way, each attribute is limited to 100%, and players were given 225% to divide up between 3 main attributes. Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. Again, most opted to maximize two of those attributes.
---

All this might sound ridiculous, but it's actually brilliant. Most MMORPGers and their level-based gameplay nowadays have the mentality that more is better, and that playing anything without constant advancement (level ups), is pointless. What the skill system above shows, is that while advancement is important, there needs to be a certain limit where players aren't allowed to go any further. The rant discusses an important aspect of MMORPG gaming, in that players constantly go all out to differentiate themselves, stand out, from the crowd as much as possible... this is something I agree with. What UO does so brilliantly, is to take advantage of that very same need, and make the game what it was. Players could dominate other players of lower character-skills... no surprise there... but when both players reached their peaks, and could go no further, tactics and strategy suddenly became everything. Those that were trule skilled at what they do, survived and won thorugh being resourceful, inventive, and strategic.

Juggling the fast paced nature of combat, with the myraid of skills (each with many abilities) to choose from, to utilizing everything around players (environment, nearby monsters/players), and pitting all that against what you think your opponent is about to do, is what I call "skill in its quintessential form".
 
There really is no comparison.. The article is pretty pointless.
The only "skills" MMORPGs require are knowing when to use what attack on what guy and when. Thats it The game takes care of the aiming for you and the swinging of the axe/shooting of the gun for you, etc. Pick a target, click away on your attacks/specials, win or lose.

FPS games, on the other hand, require quick reflexes, manual aiming, controlling gun recoil, hitting specific body parts (headshot), using cover and terrain, knowing maps/routes/paterns, and of course you have to shoot the weapon on your own via input.

Its simple really.. RPGs play the skill part of the FPS game for you.. Its the core of the RPG system. You roll the dice, the game tells you what you did based on the stats of your equipment + character/skills levels compared to player B.

Yes I do play WoW, played AO, and beta tested SWG, and have been playing FPS games since Doom, and have competed in multiple leagues for CS. Playing CTF in WoW does require a little more skill than other PVP/PVE and MMORPG games, but still not even close to the level of FPS games.
 
i work in a restaurant as an assistant manager and i see 2 types of people. the people who know what they're doing, and the type who remember what to do. the first type of people are the valuable ones. the ones who know how to adapt to a situation, who react almost instinctively, who can read a problem and figure out a solution. the 2nd type of person is nice to have, but isn't someone you try to keep around. they know what they're supposed to do in situation-x, but sometimes they're slower, they tend to have problems figuring out what's going on sometimes.

i get the impression from RPGs that people are the same way. never played massive online, but from playing diablo2 and nwn for a long, long time, i've seen that there are people who can make characters, collect items, spend time doing the same thing over and over again and can react quickly only because of the time spent and familiarity. then there are the players who understand how the game works, why certain things happen. they're the ones w/ skill, but i think in RPGs its knowledge rather than skill.

the thing is, in video games, its hard to tell the difference and there's not a reason to generally. i've always been less of a PvP player in RPG's, i always figured it was either about the story or building the characters, i play games like cs:s and tekken5 to test "skillz."
 
There are different types of skill. I dont play WoW, but I do play GuildWars... and there is skill involved even if arn't aiming and shooting a gun. High ranked guilds dont get where they are because the game requires no skill... Managing your life and mana, knowing which spells/skills to use at which time and most important teamwork. Lineage 2 is also the same when it comes to teamwork. Sieging castles take skill... Besides who cares, its all about having fun... :rolleyes:
 
dont forget about the games that take even more skill than both, RTS. (fps is 2nd most skill required). I mean, havent you seen pure pwnage?

name one game that takes more skill than starcraft
 
Exactly. Being able to twitch isn't what makes a player skilled, which is what most folks here seem to be thinking. Apples and oranges people. FPSs require both strategy and twitch, and MMORPGs require strategy and knowledge. To say manual movement takes more skill than working knowledge of dozens of weapons/items/spells, their attrubutes, their strengths and weaknesses, and so on... is ridiculous. Both require lots of learning, lots of practicing, and many have mastered this to be at the top of their game.

True skill comes from learning and utilizing strategy successfully, as well as anticipating your opponents moves. With the right strategy, anyone can beat out a fast clicking kid, or someone with the most uber of items and spells. This is true for both FPSs and MMORPGs... and even RTSs :).
 
Hahaha, skills are learnt things, wether you think it or not makes no difference, whatever you do in everyday life other than breathing, basic eating/drinking requires a skill that you have at some point learnt. Some are easier than others to learn but they are still skills.
Hell, you even need a skill to piss in the pan, something which a lot of people are sadly lacking in which is fucking astounding considering how much damn practice you get at it during your life...
To say that something doesn't take any skill is retarded, it just takes a different skill which may or may not be easy or hard dependant on the individual in question.
Dano.
 
What Dome said is true however, all the average MMORPG player has to do is find a skilled player and copy what he does and he can easily keep up. In an FPS however, if you can't keep up with the pace, you'll get left behind.

You spend 95% of your gametime in an MMORPG grinding. Killing the same monster with the same move/ability 1,000 times to reach the next level. If a guy hasn't mastered it by then, he's beyond help.

And there are those that actually has the games formula either in their head or written down somewhere (I know a few, such patience!). When equipping a sword with a certain attribute, they can mathematically compute how much it will affect their stats. But again, all the regular unskilled guy has to do is copy him and he'll be able to make just as powerful a character. If he's in a guild, all his knowledge is shared with his guildmates.

No matter how bad you are in an MMORPG, as long as you can find a decent party willing to take you in, you can still level pretty fast. That's one advantage of the genre. You can invite your newbie neighbor, give him some of your uber stuff, and tank him all the way to the top. I tank newbies btw. You just have to give him some decent equipment, take him to a certain place, and tell him which monsters to kill and how (using yourself as the shield), then when he reaches a certain level, instruct him where to put the points depending on his build, move on to the next area with better monsters and repeat. By the time i'm through with him, he's usually pretty strong enough to go about on his own. No skill required, he just follows my lead. They're pretty powerful now, and can whoop my ass in PvP, but they got there just by continuing doing what i had told them while i was tanking them (They had more gametime) and occasionally contacting me on where to go next. An unskilled player can actually exceed a skilled one if he invests enough time in the game.
 
Bobby said:
Exactly. Being able to twitch isn't what makes a player skilled, which is what most folks here seem to be thinking. Apples and oranges people. FPSs require both strategy and twitch, and MMORPGs require strategy and knowledge. To say manual movement takes more skill than working knowledge of dozens of weapons/items/spells, their attrubutes, their strengths and weaknesses, and so on... is ridiculous. Both require lots of learning, lots of practicing, and many have mastered this to be at the top of their game.

True skill comes from learning and utilizing strategy successfully, as well as anticipating your opponents moves. With the right strategy, anyone can beat out a fast clicking kid, or someone with the most uber of items and spells. This is true for both FPSs and MMORPGs... and even RTSs :).

I think the point is that almost anyone can become very very good at a mmo like wow as long as they have enough TIME to put into the game which allows them to get more money/armor/stats. Whereas with an FPS even if you play the thing 24/7 you could get good, but you still may not be able to beat fatality or some other pro player. Just because it's some innate ability that you have above others (hand-eye coordination). That's the distinction I made between them and the point I think the author was trying to make.
 
Having good gear won't make you a good player if you don't know how to play. The game still takes skill to be good.
 
I think the point is that almost anyone can become very very good at a mmo like wow as long as they have enough TIME to put into the game which allows them to get more money/armor/stats. Whereas with an FPS even if you play the thing 24/7 you could get good, but you still may not be able to beat fatality or some other pro player. Just because it's some innate ability that you have above others (hand-eye coordination). That's the distinction I made between them and the point I think the author was trying to make.

Well then that's something I just have to disagree with, at least with proper MMOs like old school UO. Besides, I don't consider a persons inate abilities as being real "skill" if he had no concious decision on acquiring it, so one could argue that Fatality isn't as skilled as the next guy, they're maybe just the same, but 'naturally advantaged' because of his inate abilities.

Lots of players spend countless hours in MMOs, and most of them just idle away doing pointless things like talking to friends about RL, running around vendor shopping, and/or running around naked in the jungle. The potential is there to be great, I agree, but with UO, not everyone gets to be at the top. Top players in that game own unbelievable things like castles, server-spawn rares, etc.., have the best tactical skill during combat, enabling him to outmanuvre several players at once, and so on. They don't get there because the game eventually lets them, they're there because of their tactical and strategic skills, negoitating skills, timing skills, all real skills, all learnt...
 
You can still be a noob with even the best gear. Directly copying the actions of others does not work, encounters are not static, even ones you may have done many times, and if you don't know why you're using the skills you're using you won't be able to adapt to changes.
 
I think talon is right. My first thought was, well anyone in a MMORPG can be good, they just need the right equpiment and talent build. But then I thought some more and remembered back to Uldaman runs, and Mauradon, and I distinctly remember high level, well equiped players sucking the big one and causing wipes.
 
but not as much skill as RTS/FPS. I used to play diablo 2 before, and the "skill" in that game consisted of being rushed to all the most efficient places, placing skill points in preplanned categories (all calculated to get the best build possible), then holding down right click to cast spells at other players. Oh and dont forget kiling the same monster 1000 times.


when 2 players fight, the one with the better equipment will win, not because he can hold right click better (lol), but because he has a numbers advantage. When you start a game of starcraft, everybody will have the exact same thing and its fair.
 
chrusher97 said:
but not as much skill as RTS/FPS. I used to play diablo 2 before, and the "skill" in that game consisted of being rushed to all the most efficient places, placing skill points in preplanned categories (all calculated to get the best build possible), then holding down right click to cast spells at other players. Oh and dont forget kiling the same monster 1000 times.

when 2 players fight, the one with the better equipment will win, not because he can hold right click better (lol), but because he has a numbers advantage. When you start a game of starcraft, everybody will have the exact same thing and its fair.

So killing the same "terrorist" is any different? It does take quite a bit of effort to nail down the drill for a high level instance. The same goes for a CS:S map. Once you know the map you do the same damn thing every time.

And yes...a crappy player will cause massive wipes in high level instances. High-end content does take skill, patience, and a very large amount of focus (especially for priests who are monitoring multiple tanks and trying to decide who live and who dies when the fit hits the shan).

-tReP
 
So killing the same "terrorist" is any different? It does take quite a bit of effort to nail down the drill for a high level instance. The same goes for a CS:S map. Once you know the map you do the same damn thing every time.

Yep. The dumb schmuck that gets shot over and over is a retard and clearly shows in an FPS. In MMORPGs, the playing field is so level, those guys actually have a higher chance of pwning you as long as they play long enough.

In FPSes, if the other guy is just slightly less skilled than you are, it's usually enough to get him slaughtered. In MMORPG's, a 10% skill advantage barely makes a difference especially considering the inconsistent damage you can inflict (e.g inflicting between 450-550 damage, 20-30% damage defense, 2% critical, etc.), it's simply how MMORPG's are made.

In PvP, you guys basically just face each other and start whacking. Dodging is handled by your stats automatically, your attack rate is handled by your stats automatically, your accuracy is handled by your stats automatically, special abilities are done at the push of a button and an extra click for more damage. If more than 2 players are involved, there's no worry about a stray arrow or slash (all calculations are done on the target player alone, not his position coordinates), you just concentrate on the guy next to you and hope you don't get double teamed. You don't get any advantage or benefit from the surrounding terrain, it's pure eyecandy. That means you can't throw barrels at him, jump over tables, or any kind of diversion. Any attempt to back off only results in getting an extra slash (Maybe even more damage since your defense is down). You can only stand there at arms length, swing and hope your HP lasts longer than his.
 
What you are describing is exactly the "dumb schmuck" you used in your example, and shows that you really have no experience or even basic knowledge in what you are describing.

Anyone who stands toe to toe and auto-attacks is a fool. Proper usage of different skills and use of terrain to break things such as Line of Sight, maneuvering to put your opponent in a vulnerable position, etc. are paramount.

Group PvP requires even more tactical skill, coordinating your efforts with other players to provide optimal offense against priority targets and protecting your own, using skills to break up enemy formations and maneuvers, that takes skill. Pure and simple.
 
bonkrowave said:
Diablo is not a MMORPG

never meant to say that it was, just wanted to give you guys my background so you know where i'm coming from
 
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