Shuttle build Help

[courtney01]

mATX isn't going anywhere anytime. If anything, its growing rapidly with the increasing demand for HTPC. i7 will eventually have mATX boards, but not for at least another year hence why I didn't bother building my SFF system with one. That and the price premium. People want smaller and more functional computers that take up less space, most folks don't want the huge ass steel towers of the mid 90's, hence why the Mini Mac and other SFF sytems are so popular, people don't want to lose alot of space to computer. Hence why the LCD's out took CRT's so fast as soon as they became price justifiable, space savings, especially in offices

Many people predicted, especially Intel, given that it was their idea, that the BTX form factor was gonna do away with the ATX. Well we all know how that turned out, despite what Intel said Needless to say, ATX isn't gonna meets it maker for awhile yet.

Sounds great. So the worst thing that could happen is that this SFF I'm building will be considered "large" in the future.

Also, you can use more then 3 gigs of RAM with Windows XP, but Windows just won't see it/have access to it, but other programs will if their that RAM hungry, but If your not going 64 bit and 4gigs of RAM, Vista isn't worth it for you right now.

I'm a bit unclear, what's the distinction between Windows recognizing only 3GB but other programs being able to use more than that? Aren't programs being used through Windows? If Windows is limited but normal programs aren't, what does that mean to me when I'm using a computer (what tasks might be slower for me?)

FYI, I have a Associates degree in Information Systems Management from college as well as several self certifications in various areas and several years experience in the IT field in case you were curious.

Wow. I feel so dumb talking to all of you! If you guys need any help with...um...never mind.
What things should I read so that I can become more knowledgeable with all the technical discussions here? I'm kind of scared because once I get all my parts, I have to put it all together, and I don't have a clue yet how to do it. Do you guys mind if I ask for help in a few weeks?

 

[Freezebyte]

I see. Here's another one from Amazon. The first doesn't say whether it's OEM or not either, but the second one says bulk, which I'm guessing is OEM. So if it doesn't say, it probably won't be, right? I'm really hoping not to end up with an OEM, personal preference.

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digita...8709293&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digita...8709293&sr=1-3

I can't tell with those either, so if your set on only getting retail, purchase at Newegg as Amazon isn't good at being specific about IT stuff.

Sounds great. So the worst thing that could happen is that this SFF I'm building will be considered "large" in the future.

A good way to think of it

I'm a bit unclear, what's the distinction between Windows recognizing only 3GB but other programs being able to use more than that? Aren't programs being used through Windows?

I'll make it simple. If your using Windows XP, don't install more then 3gigs. Beyond that, use Vista 64bit

/Wow. I feel so dumb talking to all of you! If you guys need any help with...um...never mind.
What things should I read so that I can become more knowledgeable with all the technical discussions here? I'm kind of scared because once I get all my parts, I have to put it all together, and I don't have a clue yet how to do it. Do you guys mind if I ask for help in a few weeks?

Lol, ok, dunno what your referring to Anyway we ALL were noobs at some point in our lives about this computer stuff, we all had to start somewhere. However, we eat, live and breath this IT stuff day and day out vs the rest of the world can that can hardly install a USB mouse, lol, thats why we exist.

Ask away if you need help, thats what were hear for.

 

[courtney01]

I'll make it simple. If your using Windows XP, don't install more then 3gigs. Beyond that, use Vista 64bit

I see. I wish I can do that but I only have 2 sticks of 2gb ram each. Just so I understand, what things would be able to recognize more than the 3gb of ram? Anything that I'll be doing on a normal basis (web browsing, word processing, music/video softwares, games, lots of tasks open at the same time), or only specialized softwares?

I can't tell with those either, so if your set on only getting retail, purchase at Newegg as Amazon isn't good at being specific about IT stuff.

Unfortunately, I think newegg only has the OEM version of the 640gb. oh well

 

[Dangman]

I see. I wish I can do that but I only have 2 sticks of 2gb ram each. Just so I understand, what things would be able to recognize more than the 3gb of ram? Anything that I'll be doing on a normal basis (web browsing, word processing, music/video softwares, games, lots of tasks open at the same time), or only specialized softwares?

Straight from the General Hardware FAQ:

What's this deal about Windows not being able to see 4GB of RAM?

32-bit versions of Windows (both XP and Vista) can address 4GB MINUS the sum total of all component memory installed in your system (i.e. memory in your video card.) In other words, it has one 32-bit memory map which can address up to 4GB of memory, including component memory. Component memory is addressed first because the system has to assume that a component must have access to all of its memory to function correctly. As this is not a requirement for system RAM, it is addressed after component memory. For example, with a Radeon HD3870X2 card, you will lose at least an entire gigabyte (GB) of usable RAM if you chose 32-bit XP.

32-bit versions of Windows have a physical address extension (PAE) switch that enables Windows to utilize 4GB or more RAM. The server versions of Windows have the PAE switch activated by default, possibly due to the limited hardware and software environment the servers have to contend with. There was an ugly hack to activate the PAE switch on pre-SP2 versions of Windows XP, but it introduced significant driver and application stability issues. This very switch was removed from XP SP2 and Vista as it was incompatible with many third party drivers and was known to trash stability.

 

[Freezebyte]

I see. I wish I can do that but I only have 2 sticks of 2gb ram each. Just so I understand, what things would be able to recognize more than the 3gb of ram? Anything that I'll be doing on a normal basis (web browsing, word processing, music/video softwares, games, lots of tasks open at the same time), or only specialized softwares?

Only specialized software like Photoshop or Premiere or an large RTS game like Supreme Commander would gobble up that much RAM in one sitting. You'll never hit that high of a demand with basic applications. You can INSTALL 4 gigs of RAM in Windows XP but your RARELY gonna be able to USE it.

Unfortunately, I think newegg only has the OEM version of the 640gb. oh well

Whats so wrong with oem? I've purchased OEM for years and never had issues unless you like having a pretty box with a label and some kinda manual.

 

[courtney01]

Whats so wrong with oem? I've purchased OEM for years and never had issues unless you like having a pretty box with a label and some kinda manual.

Nothing really, actually. It's just that I don't know enough about hardware to know what I'm missing or will need in addition to the actual component I buy. For example, Danny explained that some hard drives don't come with sata cables, but most mobo's will include them, so it won't be a problem. But I didn't know that until he explained it to me. Less hassle for me I suppose? But if you guys say it's a good route, I can venture into the unfamiliar!

 

[Dangman]

Nothing really, actually. It's just that I don't know enough about hardware to know what I'm missing or will need in addition to the actual component I buy. For example, Danny explained that some hard drives don't come with sata cables, but most mobo's will include them, so it won't be a problem. But I didn't know that until he explained it to me. Less hassle for me I suppose? But if you guys say it's a good route, I can venture into the unfamiliar!

Yup, OEM is a good route. Often cheaper and comes with the same manufacturer warranty as retail. It's mostly OSes, hard drives and CD drives that you get in OEM form

 

[Freezebyte]

If your worried about warranties, Seagates drives have 5 years vs Western Digitals 3 years, FYI.

 

[Dangman]

If your worried about warranties, Seagates drives have 5 years vs Western Digitals 3 years, FYI.

WD's Black drives or the ones ending with AALS have 5 year warranties IIRC.

 

[courtney01]

If your worried about warranties, Seagates drives have 5 years vs Western Digitals 3 years, FYI.

I guess theoretically if the hardware is better quality, then the shorter warranty won't be too much of a concern? Which brand is better? Tiraides recommended that Western Digital hard drive and said it was the best bang for my buck.

 

[Dangman]

I guess theoretically if the hardware is better quality, then the shorter warranty won't be too much of a concern? Which brand is better? Tiraides recommended that Western Digital hard drive and said it was the best bang for my buck.

Even better quality hardware fail occasionally so warranty is still a concern. And yes the WD6400AAKS is the best bang for the buck hard drive out now at $70. Next step up would be Seagate's 1.5TB hard drive at $120.

As for which brand is better, that's mostly personal opinion.

 

[courtney01]

Even better quality hardware fail occasionally so warranty is still a concern. And yes the WD6400AAKS is the best bang for the buck hard drive out now at $70. Next step up would be Seagate's 1.5TB hard drive at $120.

As for which brand is better, that's mostly personal opinion.

Is there a "next step up" around the 500-640gb capacity? 1.5tb is way too much for me.

 

[Dangman]

Is there a "next step up" around the 500-640gb capacity? 1.5tb is way too much for me.

Nothing. The WD6400AAKS is the best hard drive in the 500 to 640GB range in terms of price, storage and performance.

 

[courtney01]

So despite the fact that the WD has only 3 years, I should still go with it?

 

[Freezebyte]

So despite the fact that the WD has only 3 years, I should still go with it?

The particular WD drive that Danny keeps promoting has a 5 year warranty due to it being the "performance" series from WD as I was not aware of. All other models have 3 years. ALL Seagates regardless of model have 5 years.

 

[courtney01]

The particular WD drive that Danny keeps promoting has a 5 year warranty due to it being the "performance" series from WD as I was not aware of. All other models have 3 years. ALL Seagates regardless of model have 5 years.

Wait, according to newegg, this WD has 3 years:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218

it ends in an AAKS instead of AALS.

And I think someone said this one is a "blue" drive, not a "black" drive.

 

[Freezebyte]

Wait, according to newegg, this WD has 3 years:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218

it ends in an AAKS instead of AALS.

And I think someone said this one is a "blue" drive, not a "black" drive.

Correct, I said that. The blue is the middle of the line from WD and only the "Black" series have 5 year warranties

 

[courtney01]

Just wondering, what happens when there's a failure that requires warranty protection to fix it? Is it like recovering your data? Or just fixing physical problems without dealing with data on the drive?

 

[Dangman]

Just wondering, what happens when there's a failure that requires warranty protection to fix it? Is it like recovering your data? Or just fixing physical problems without dealing with data on the drive?

No they just send you a refurbished or new drive (mostly likely refurbished) once they have your dead or dying drive. They won't bother recovering your data. So always keep a backup of your important data.

 

[courtney01]

edit

 

[Dangman]

Yes, go for the ST60F and no you won't lose any quality.

 

[courtney01]

What are stream processors? If a video card that has 512MB GDDR3, 700mhz core clock, 1900mhz memory clock, 256bits, but only 64 stream processors, is that bad? How are these different specs weighed? Because I don't know how to compare the overall performance when one gpu might have lower core/memory clock and stream processors but higher memory interface, or any other odd higher/lower combination of these specs that make direct comparison difficult.

 

[Dangman]

What are stream processors? If a video card that has 512MB GDDR3, 700mhz core clock, 1900mhz memory clock, 256bits, but only 64 stream processors, is that bad? How are these different specs weighed? Because I don't know how to compare the overall performance when one gpu might have lower core/memory clock and stream processors but higher memory interface, or any other odd higher/lower combination of these specs that make direct comparison difficult.

Those huge combination of specs does make it extremely difficult to compare directly on specs alones. So Rather than just compare the cards on specs alone, just look up reviews for them to see how they actually perform against one another. Simple as that. The reviews will show you whether or not the extra clock speed, VRAM, stream processors, higher memory bit width, etc actually helps out in games.

Hit up this link and scroll down to "Streaming Processors" to get a general idea of Stream processors:
http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTIxOCw1LCwxMTA=

 

[courtney01]

Is there a way to test psu's without it being in a complete setup yet? I got my psu today, but I don't really have anything to connect it to, but I wanted to check to see if it's a working unit. I don't want to wait until I have all my parts because by then it might be too late to return it if something's wrong with it.

 

[Dangman]

Is there a way to test psu's without it being in a complete setup yet? I got my psu today, but I don't really have anything to connect it to, but I wanted to check to see if it's a working unit. I don't want to wait until I have all my parts because by then it might be too late to return it if something's wrong with it.

Try this:

The next thing you could do is test the PSU. Jump start it (on the main atx connector, short the green wire with any black wire, using a paperclip), and see if it stays on. If not, then its probably a faulty PSU. If it works then you can proceed with the suggestions below. ***NOTE: The paperclip trick is a simple test for those that do not have PSU testers, multimeters, nor a spare PSU to test with. It is not a 100% conclusive test of the PSU.

 

[courtney01]

Can I put the paperclip in first before plugging in the psu? I don't feel comfortable doing it while it's plugged in.

By the way, on newegg, sometimes the title of the item has a burgundy font colored subtitle. What does that mean? For example, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127333. Is it a special addition from newegg, or just a highlighted feature that exists on this item sold anywhere?

 

[Dangman]

It's just a highlighted feature and yes you can plug in the paperclip before you turn it on.

 

[courtney01]

On a side note, I'm building a 2nd computer, too. I was just wondering if it's better to go with a high speed dual core or a low speed quad core? (I'm choosing from a
Q8200, Q6600, or any of the E8x00). This won't be used for gaming at all and no overclocking, just normal web browsing, word processing, movie watching. And what's the best video card I could get for about $20-$40? (no gaming, just HD movies). Thanks

 

[Dangman]

On a side note, I'm building a 2nd computer, too. I was just wondering if it's better to go with a high speed dual core or a low speed quad core? (I'm choosing from a
Q8200, Q6600, or any of the E8x00). This won't be used for gaming at all and no overclocking, just normal web browsing, word processing, movie watching. And what's the best video card I could get for about $20-$40? (no gaming, just HD movies). Thanks

For all those actions, a low-end dual core CPU like the E2200 will be enough. Alhough for the price, you're better off with an AMD build for just a basic normal web browsing, word processing, movie watching and HD watching PC.

For just the core components, this is all you need to watch HD content:
AMD Athlon X2 4850E CPU - $57
Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2HP AMD 780G mATX Motherboard - $75
Kingston KVR800D2N5/2G 2GB DDR2 800 RAM - $22
---
Total: $154 plus tax and shipping.

Properly set up, the onboard video of the 780G chipset will be more than enough for HD content. In other words you do not need a video card like you would with an Intel build just to watch HD content.

 

[courtney01]

For all those actions, a low-end dual core CPU like the E2200 will be enough. Alhough for the price, you're better off with an AMD build for just a basic normal web browsing, word processing, movie watching and HD watching PC.

For just the core components, this is all you need to watch HD content:
AMD Athlon X2 4850E CPU - $57
Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2HP AMD 780G mATX Motherboard - $75
Kingston KVR800D2N5/2G 2GB DDR2 800 RAM - $22
---
Total: $154 plus tax and shipping.

Properly set up, the onboard video of the 780G chipset will be more than enough for HD content. In other words you do not need a video card like you would with an Intel build just to watch HD content.

Wow, that setup looks amazing and it's so cheap! I really want to be able to do this build, but assuming I need to go intel (the ECS mobo again, bleh), and given that the person who's using this wants at least an E8x00 and only needs the most basic video card to handle HD content, my original questions still stand.

 

[Dangman]

Wow, that setup looks amazing and it's so cheap! I really want to be able to do this build, but assuming I need to go intel (the ECS mobo again, bleh), and given that the person who's using this wants at least an E8x00 and only needs the most basic video card to handle HD content, my original questions still stand.

Cheapest video card for HD content would be the HD4350. They usually can be found for ~$40. Still has 7.1 audio support like other HD4xxx series video cards.

 

[courtney01]

Cheapest video card for HD content would be the HD4350. They usually can be found for ~$40. Still has 7.1 audio support like other HD4xxx series video cards.

Great, I'll go with that. Is it worth $5 more to get 512MB, 128bits for this graphics cards over 256MB, 64bits? I also noticed that this card is fanless. Is that ok?

Oh, and sorry to keep asking this, but just need to keep this fact straight in my mind. Slower speed quad core vs faster speed dual core for normal computer tasks?

 

[Dangman]

Great, I'll go with that. Is it worth $5 more to get 512MB, 128bits for this graphics cards over 256MB, 64bits? I also noticed that this card is fanless. Is that ok?

Oh, and sorry to keep asking this, but just need to keep this fact straight in my mind. Slower speed quad core vs faster speed dual core for normal computer tasks?

Not worth the $5 since that 128bit card is from HIS, not a very trust worthy ATI partner IMO. Sides, that 128bit and 512MB won't provide an iota of difference compared to its 64bit bros for just watching HD content.

For normal computer tasks and HD content watching, a cheap dual-core is more than enough. For heavy photoshop, video editing, music/audio editing, virtualization and seriously heavy multi-tasking, go quad-core. For gaming, their performance is roughly the same once you start playing around at 1280x1024 and above.

 

[courtney01]

Not worth the $5 since that 128bit card is from HIS, not a very trust worthy ATI partner IMO. Sides, that 128bit and 512MB won't provide an iota of difference compared to its 64bit bros for just watching HD content.

The two that I saw on newegg are actually both by MSI. Still no difference probably. Do I need to worry about it being fanless?

For normal computer tasks and HD content watching, a cheap dual-core is more than enough. For heavy photoshop, video editing, music/audio editing, virtualization and seriously heavy multi-tasking, go quad-core. For gaming, their performance is roughly the same once you start playing around at 1280x1024 and above

Ok, I'll go dual core. If the e8400 is $10 more than the e8200, which one should I go for? ($170 vs $160)

 

[tiraides]

Remember that MSI has a one-year warranty on its video cards. It's not the best choice if you're concerned about reliability. Having said that, a fanless model offers quiet (or near-silent) operation, but it runs a bit hotter (without adequate cooling from other sources) than a video card with a fan.

I would recommend the E8400, even with your budget. Since its stock speed is 3GHz, you wouldn't have to concern yourself with overclocking it (though, with a good overclocking platform, you could reach 4GHz with the E8400).

 

[Dangman]

+1 to what Tiraides said.

 

[courtney01]

I've been thinking of using my old case instead of buying a new one (it's a mid tower), so I was just wondering, instead of the originally suggested Asus P5E-VM HDMI G35 board, what are some good intel atx mobos that fit my original build's criteria (good hd video capabilities, q8200, 4gb ram, infrequent gaming, many tasks running simultaneously).

 

[courtney01]

Remember that MSI has a one-year warranty on its video cards. It's not the best choice if you're concerned about reliability. Having said that, a fanless model offers quiet (or near-silent) operation, but it runs a bit hotter (without adequate cooling from other sources) than a video card with a fan.

Is it not a good idea to go for a fanless card in terms of heat problems? (Is it a risk I should be worried about?) This setup is going to be very minimal in its capabilities compared to my main build, so it's not going to be used intensively. It's only for basic tasks like web browsing, movie watching, word processing, etc. In this case, is it still a bad idea to go for an MSI card with 1 year warranty?

I would recommend the E8400, even with your budget. Since its stock speed is 3GHz, you wouldn't have to concern yourself with overclocking it (though, with a good overclocking platform, you could reach 4GHz with the E8400).

My budget for this build is actually much smaller than my main build. I'm trying to get this to be as cheap as possible. Should I still go for the E8400?

 

[Dangman]

I've been thinking of using my old case instead of buying a new one (it's a mid tower), so I was just wondering, instead of the originally suggested Asus P5E-VM HDMI G35 board, what are some good intel atx mobos that fit my original build's criteria (good hd video capabilities, q8200, 4gb ram, infrequent gaming, many tasks running simultaneously).

Some mobo recommendations (they fit every single criteria you have except for the HD video and gaming: you will need a video card for that):
Gigabyte GA-EP43-DS3L Intel P43 Motherboard - $85
MSI P45 Neo3-FR Intel P45 Motherboard - $110
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R Intel P45 Motherboard - $120
Asus P5Q Pro Intel P45 Motherboard - $130
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P Intel P45 Motherboard - $137
DFI Lanparty DK X38-T2R Intel X38 Motherboard - $150
Asus P5E Deluxe Intel X48 Motherboard - $220
DFI Lanparty DK X48-T2R Intel X48 Motherboard - $220
Gigabyte GA-EX48-DS4 Intel X48 Motherboard - $225

Just to help you out: All of these motherboards have PCI-E 2.0 which may be useful for future GPU upgrades. If you don't need RAID, more than 6 SATA ports and only need semi-decent overclocking, check out the DS3L. If you need 8 SATA ports, RAID, 4 PCI slots, and legacy ports, then get the Neo3-Fr. If you need 8 SATA ports but want RAID, firewire, a second PCI-E x16 port, a second gigabit port, support for 16GB of RAM, optional eSATA, and excellent overclocks, then get the UD3R. If you like the UD3R but want a second PCI-E x16 slot and x8/x8 Crossfire support, then get the UD3P. If you like the UD3P but want an onboard pre-installed fast booting Linux setup and don't need a second gigabit port, then get the Asus P5Q Pro. If you want a motherboard with excellent overclocking capabilities above all else (feature wise), go with the UD3P. If you want Crossfire with full x16/x16 bandwidth, get the Lanparty DK X38. If you have cash to burn, need x16/x16 Crossfire, and don't give a absolute damn about getting the most value for your money, get the Asus, DFI, or Gigabyte X48 motherboards. Do note that the Asus website can be slow sometimes.

Is it not a good idea to go for a fanless card in terms of heat problems? (Is it a risk I should be worried about?) .......In this case, is it still a bad idea to go for an MSI card with 1 year warranty?

It's a bad idea to go with a fanless card if you live in a particularly hot place or have really crapping cooling inside the case. Go with the MSI card only if you really don't care about the warranty. If warranty is a factor, then ditch the MSI. Get it?

My budget for this build is actually much smaller than my main build. I'm trying to get this to be as cheap as possible. Should I still go for the E8400?

No. Like I said multiple times, for that secondary build, all you need is the E2200 at the cheapest or the E5200 at most if you're sticking to Intel.

 

[courtney01]

Some mobo recommendations (they fit every single criteria you have except for the HD video and gaming: you will need a video card for that):
Gigabyte GA-EP43-DS3L Intel P43 Motherboard - $85
MSI P45 Neo3-FR Intel P45 Motherboard - $110
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R Intel P45 Motherboard - $120
Asus P5Q Pro Intel P45 Motherboard - $130
Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P Intel P45 Motherboard - $137
DFI Lanparty DK X38-T2R Intel X38 Motherboard - $150
Asus P5E Deluxe Intel X48 Motherboard - $220
DFI Lanparty DK X48-T2R Intel X48 Motherboard - $220
Gigabyte GA-EX48-DS4 Intel X48 Motherboard - $225

Just to help you out: All of these motherboards have PCI-E 2.0 which may be useful for future GPU upgrades. If you don't need RAID, more than 6 SATA ports and only need semi-decent overclocking, check out the DS3L. If you need 8 SATA ports, RAID, 4 PCI slots, and legacy ports, then get the Neo3-Fr. If you need 8 SATA ports but want RAID, firewire, a second PCI-E x16 port, a second gigabit port, support for 16GB of RAM, optional eSATA, and excellent overclocks, then get the UD3R. If you like the UD3R but want a second PCI-E x16 slot and x8/x8 Crossfire support, then get the UD3P. If you like the UD3P but want an onboard pre-installed fast booting Linux setup and don't need a second gigabit port, then get the Asus P5Q Pro. If you want a motherboard with excellent overclocking capabilities above all else (feature wise), go with the UD3P. If you want Crossfire with full x16/x16 bandwidth, get the Lanparty DK X38. If you have cash to burn, need x16/x16 Crossfire, and don't give a absolute damn about getting the most value for your money, get the Asus, DFI, or Gigabyte X48 motherboards. Do note that the Asus website can be slow sometimes.

I think Tiraides very early in this thread mentioned something that the G43/45 have had some problems- does that mean that P43/45 also have problems? (If not, how does it compare to the G35 chipset?) And AVT mentioned the X#8 might be too much for my needs because I don't game.

In terms of what I'm not going to do with my computer: overclock, crossfire/sli, anything linux

I might also just get the asus micro atx and put it into the mid tower since I read online that it's possible. Which do you recommend: micro atx mobo in my previous build's mid tower (to save money on the case), micro atx mobo in a new sff case (my original plan), or new atx mobo in my mid tower?

Are legacy ports still needed nowadays? (like ps/2) Is a gigabit port just a normal ethernet port? What are the different x# used for in pci-e slots?

No. Like I said multiple times, for that secondary build, all you need is the E2200 at the cheapest or the E5200 at most if you're sticking to Intel.

I was just wondering because Tiraides recommended the E8400 over the E8200. The person I'm building this for wants at least an E8200, but I can try explaining what you said. How much of a performance drop would you notice from E8200 to E5200 and E2200?

Is either of the E2200/5200 ok for a final build with no intermediate upgrades (the person wants to use it for about 4 years)? What I mean is, would an E8200 somehow be "less obsolete" than an E2200 in 4 years time?