Shuttle build Help

[courtney01]

- My goal is to spend as little as possible, but I don't have a max budget, per se, so this budget issue is flexible
- Preference: I'm sticking to Intel Dual or Quad core CPU's, and I'm looking for very good to high end processors. I would also like a case no bigger than a typical Shuttle case

A. Given my uses above, dual or quad? I'm guessing people will tell me dual, but I'm planning on using my computer for at least 4 years, so I'm trying to future proof it. Unless someone thinks I can save more money by getting a dual now and upgrading to a quad later.

B. I "narrowed" down my list of possible CPU's to the following:
Dual: E8500, E8600
Quad: Q9300, Q9400, Q9450, Q9550

C. Since I haven't completed B yet, I'm not sure what graphics and sound card to choose. Do I need a 256MB graphics card to get HD quality movies, or will 128MB do fine?

D. Any good but cheap water cooling system?

E. Is there a case about the size of a Shuttle that can handle all this?

 

[tiraides]

All three of those Shuttles are based on Intel's X38/X48 platform. They offer PCI-E 2.0 and dual x16 CrossFire support, but no onboard video. But do you really need CrossFire? (CrossFire, as well as SLI, really benefits you if you plan on gaming at high visual settings on a 1920x1200 -- the "average" resolution for a 24-26 inch monitor -- or greater resolution.)

But to answer your questions:

1. All three models can handle your proposed setup. (But do you really need two optical drives?)

2. A midrange card -- e.g., 9800GT, 9800GTX/GTX+, HD4670, HD4850 -- would be a good middle ground for light gaming and watching HD video/movies. Many onboard GPUs that are rated for HD media can't get the job done. (For example, AMD's 780/790 series chipsets can play HD video, but not Intel's G43/G45 chipsets.)

3. Sound is subjective. Though onboard sound has progressed to the point that most users don't need a dedicated sound card, there are those (e.g., audiophiles) who would benefit from one. Though I wouldn't call Creative's X-Fi series audiophile cards, they do offer (somewhat) clearer sound quality than compared to onboard. You may also want to look at the Asus Xonar series sound cards for your needs.

4. With the Intel Core 2 processors, DDR3 RAM has no performance benefit over DDR2 RAM to justify its higher price. DDR2 RAM has also been very inexpensive, as you can now obtain a 4GB kit for under/around $50.

5. I personally can't comment on Shuttles in general, as I've never owned one.

 

[courtney01]

1. I don't technically need one, but just in case I'm using a dvd while I'm burning another dvd.

2. Do the X38 or X48 chipsets support HD quality graphics?

3. I'm not too demanding so I can tolerate not having the utmost best quality sound. Would that mean I can go with Creative? How would you categorize the Asus Xonar series

4. I'll go with DDR2 and eliminate my Sx48P2 Deluxe choice.

 

[tiraides]

1. As long as you're using both of them (as in, you're constantly burning discs), go ahead. Many people buy multiple optical drives just to have them -- and with a SFF system like the Shuttles, you should value all of the free space you have. (It's more of a personal pet peeve than anything else... really....)

2. Again, the X38 and X48 do not have onboard GPUs. That said, they can support any PCI-E video card in the market today.

3. Many people have said good things about the Asus Xonar series. I would put them on par to the X-Fi series, but again, it's a subjective matter. You may want to check out some reviews of both models to see which one is better for your needs.

4. Good idea. It's not worth getting DDR3 RAM for the Intel Core 2 series processors.

Out of curiosity, why are you considering a Shuttle rather than building your own SFF system? And which monitor/resolution are you using?

 

[Freezebyte]

Just keep in mind your gonna be paying a premium price for the Shuttle vs build your own. Shuttles are good quality for the most part, but pricey. Most gents here build their own SFF systems, though a few do own Shuttles.

For a more indepth look and incite into Shuttles, i'd go here as well as their forums, LOTs of shuttle owners that can help you here.

http://www.sfftech.com/

 

[AVT]

DO NOT BUY the x38/x48 if you're not a high-resolution gamer. There is no point.

Get a SP35P2V2 instead. They're sometimes up @ Newegg open box for 200.99. Save your money.

1) No. Shuttles will not take more than one DVD drive. You're also limited to 2 expansion slots, so you can't have 3 expansion cards. If I were you, I'd drop the sound card and get an external DAC.

2) Not Intel onboard. Get something like a 9600GT or 8800GS, they're cheap, and will handle video/games very well.

3) Get an external DAC instead. Vista's new sound card model makes sound cards near-useless, as the CPU still does the processing.

4) No.

5) SP35P2V2 is identical to them, except the motherboard. Surprisingly, it's fairly roomy, very easy to work with. The cooling and noise are both mediocre. PSU is loud. If you're not obsessed with silence, like I am, you'll be fine, though.

6) No, but it will get hot. The only way to reduce temperatures is to do some pretty serious modding to it.

7) Don't buy the x38/x48 ones in the first place. P35 is enough for your purposes.

 

[courtney01]

tiraides:
1. You're right, it's really a convenience thing. I won't be burning a lot, but I just wanted to have the flexibility available when I needed it.

2. Without a PCI-E video card, I won't get anywhere near HD quality movies and decent gaming?

I haven't decided on a monitor yet.

freezebyte:
Given my needs and prefernces above, approximately how large is the cost difference between building a shuttle and my own?

 

[tiraides]

With Shuttles, space is always at a premium. Unless you really need direct disc-to-disc copy, I suggest omitting the second optical drive.

Again, the Intel X38 and X48 chipsets have no onboard GPU. Without a video card, you'll have no video. But that's the case for only those northbridge chipsets. (AMD's 780 and 790 series chipsets have onboard HD-capable GPUs.)

Looking for a decent non-TN monitor is a messy, expensive affair. While you should stroll over to the Displays forum for advice, I also recommend going to other places as well -- things tend to get very heated over there.

As for building a computer on your own: It's rather easy to do. Done right, it can also perform better (for your needs) than the Shuttle and for less. In fact, the "main rig" in my signature is a SFF build.

If you really want a DIY system, check out the GenHard FAQ. It has plenty of links and guides that are designed for first-time builders.

Here's an example of a cheap yet effective SFF setup:

$50 - Silverstone SUGO SG02B-F microATX desktop case
$4 - Two Kingwin 80mm case fans (for SG02B-F)
$80 - Seasonic M12II SS-430GM 430W PSU (free shipping)
$66 - Asus M3A78-EM (free shipping)
$125 - AMD Phenom 9600 & G.Skill 2x2GB DDR2 800 combo deal (free shipping)
$25 - Samsung SH-S223F (free shipping)
$70 - Western Digital WD6400AAKS (free shipping)
$80 - Vista Home Premium 64-bit OEM DVD (free shipping)
=====
$500 - Subtotal (not including shipping, taxes, or rebates)

The quad-core Phenom 9600 is overkill for movies, but it would help you if you do quite a bit of video editing and Photoshop usage. The bundle deal it has with the G.Skill RAM kit brings it to around the same price as the higher end X2 dual-core processors. (Then again, if you know you won't need the power, you could save yourself some money and get a cheaper dual-core, like the X2 4850e.)

As I mentioned earlier, the onboard 780G chipset of the Asus M3A78-EM will allow you to view HD media without the need of a separate video card. The board also comes with a DVI and an HDMI port so you could connect your monitor up to it. The Asus M3A78-EM also comes with a PCI-Express 2.0 (x16) slot should you decide later on that you want a decent video card for gaming.

I suggest that you try out the onboard sound first, and then get a sound card if you're otherwise disappointed with the results. (I don't know enough about today's sound cards -- and their performance in Vista -- to make a recommendation at this time.)

Speaking of which, I chose the 64-bit version of Vista Home Premium so you could have full access to all of your RAM. The price of DDR2 memory is so low that, if you wanted to, you could pick up another 4GB set (but unless you do a lot of video/photo editing, you don't really need more than 4GB of RAM).

Save for the case, all of the other parts were chosen for optimal performance (though some, like the Samsung DVD burner, are quieter than others). While the Seasonic 430W power supply is more expensive than others that are on sale, its modular cables help minimize the amount of clutter inside your case. Despite the fact that gaming isn't a priority, the Seasonic power supply is enough to handle a mid-range video card (like the Radeon HD4850).

If you want more raw power, an Intel-based build (with an HD-capable video card) would be the better choice. But the whole point of this exercise was to show you a nice, inexpensive alternative to the Shuttles you were considering earlier.

 

[courtney01]

Do better deals for computer hardware happen on black friday or after black friday?

 

[tiraides]

Don't bother creating a new thread in GenHard -- just keep asking your questions here. Others (besides me, I hope) will look at this thread and offer their input.

(The point of the GenHard reference was to direct you to the GenHard FAQ, with which you could use during your research.)

Most of the items in my "build" are based off of NewEgg's current (Black Friday sale/promotion) prices. The prices -- as well as the items on sale -- will probably change several times between now and New Year's.

If you could answer a few questions for us, we can offer you better suggestions:

- How much, at most, are you willing to spend on this build? (Are taxes and shipping included within that amount?)
- What will be the priority of this machine? Everyday tasks? HD video? Photo/Video editing?
- Do you plan on doing any gaming with this build? If so, which games do you have in mind?
- Do you have a legal, unused copy of Windows available? Are you planning on using Linux?
- Do you have any parts that you've purchased already? Do you have any parts that you're carrying over from other builds?
- Ideally, how soon do you want to start building this machine?

 

[courtney01]

Hi AVT, sorry I missed your post when I was looking through it yesterday (I could have sworn it wasn't there earlier, but I guess I scrolled down too quickly).

I guess x38/x48 might be overkill since I'm not a gamer, but since I'm very picky about movie picture quality, I was thinking it would be appropriate (I'm probably wrong). Will I get HD quality movie graphics from P35? What about the P45 or G45 in terms of HD quality movies?

1. What do you think about dropping the wireless card and using one of those USB wireless receivers?

3. So I tried searching for what an external DAC is and I saw some pages debating between that and soundcards. But I don't understand what a DAC is and what it'll do when it replaces the sound card.

 

[courtney01]

delete

 

[tiraides]

Your first problem is that to obtain the better-than-a-Shuttle performance we've been discussing (at various lengths), you'll need a case that's larger than a Shuttle. (Shuttles use proprietary cases, motherboards, and power supplies.) Heat is another factor to consider; without adequate cooling that removes the hot air efficiently, you'll run into problems in the long term.

Water cooling? If that's a priority, look for a standard ATX build instead. Water cooling is very hard to perform on a SFF build, and it's next to impossible to keep all of the parts internal -- especially in something as small as a Shuttle case. Because you will be making a lot of "custom" modifications to fit as much as possible inside your microATX case, you will be spending a lot of money as well -- your SFF performance build with its own water cooling setup would easily exceed your $1000 "budget." (Lest I end up discouraging you completely, I suggest you check out the Water Cooling subforum of the Overclocking & Cooling forum here for ideas/recommendations.)

Due to the shifting sands on the Intel side, it's best to go for a quad core now, for longevity. Even though Intel tried to "simplify" things -- E, Q, and X stand for "normal" (dual core), quad core, and Extreme Edition respectively (with QX standing for quad core EE); and the higher the number, the better the processor (generally) is -- few people would notice the performance difference between the Q6600 and the Q9550 at stock speeds, especially when compared to their previous builds. Though Intel has recently released its Nehalem platform, in the form of the Core i7 processors and the X58 enthusiast chipset, there are few (inexpensive) microATX boards available at this point in time. (Not to discourage you, but the recently released G43/G45 platform has some serious flaws -- I wouldn't recommend a SFF board based on one of those chipsets.)

For now, I'm not going to recommend a case, since I believe that I won't find one that meets your expectations. However, I will recommend this setup:

$100 - Asus P5E-VM microATX motherboard (free shipping)
$320 - Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 quad core processor (free shipping)
$45 - G.Skill 4GB (2x2GB) DDR2 800 dual channel memory kit (free shipping)
$150 - Sapphire 100245L Radeon HD4850 512MB PCI Express 2.0 x16 video card (free shipping & $20 mail-in rebate)
$25 - Samsung SH-S223F SATA DVD burner (free shipping)
$70 - Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640GB SATA 3.0GB/s hard drive (free shipping)
$100 - Silverstone ST70F 700 watt modular power supply (free shipping)
$80 - Vista Home Premium 64-bit OEM DVD (free shipping)
=====
$890 - Subtotal (not including shipping, taxes, or rebates)

A few notes about my build:

- The Asus P5E-VM is one of the better Intel-based microATX boards out now. Though it does have an onboard GPU, I don't think that it's capable of playing HD video well (if at all).
- The HD4850 was chosen so you could have the ability to game on a larger (22-24 inch) monitor without having to make too many compromises. All of the Radeon HD series (3xxx and 4xxx) and the GeForce 9-series and GTX 2-series video cards have HD video encoding/decoding capabilities, which allows them to offload the work from the processor.
- The Samsung SH-S223F operates quieter than most other DVD burners, most notably the Lite-On drives. If you're confident about your current DVD burner's capability, however, you could still omit this.
- The Silverstone ST70F is currently on sale, which is why I chose it. Power-wise, though, it's overkill -- you'll never come close to using the amount of power that it's rated to handle. The Corsair HX520 and the Seasonic M12II SS-430GM are both easily capable of handling the build that I made for you. (Currently, however, the ST70F is cheaper than the HX520, and it isn't that much more expensive than the SS-430GM.)
- Since you're not overclocking, you don't have to worry much about the speed of your RAM. (A processor with a 1333MHz FSB speed will require DDR2 667 RAM to keep with a 1:1 FSB:RAM ratio. RAM is designed to downclock itself, based on the BIOS settings, to match the FSB speed.) All of the best memory deals involve DDR2 800 RAM, so I went with the already proven option.
- The WD6400AAKS is one of the best "bang for your buck" hard drives around. It's about as fast as a last-gen 150GB Raptor X drive for a fraction of its price.
- I forgot about the wireless adapter, in part because I didn't know of your preferences towards one. From my (brief) personal experience, I found that the PCI-based adapters worked better than the removable USB adapters. Although you could find a cheap yet capable 802.11g adapter for as low as $20, 802.11n adapters are also starting to come down in price.

Looking at your preferences, I believe that you'll have to make some compromises somewhere. So, which compromises are you willing to make?

 

[courtney01]

I'm doing some research so I'll be back with more details in a few days.

 

[courtney01]

I’m getting

-Hard Drive:
I’m just going to buy the one you suggested (the 640GB WD)

-Soundcard:
I'm not sure what sound card to get at around the $40-$60 range. I looked at the Xonar and the Auzentech Prelude, but they're way out of my price range. Anything good that's within my range?

-CPU:
Q6700 ($250), Q9400 ($280), or Q9550 ($330). The prices include tax and S/H. Is a $50 difference large between the 6700 and the 9550?

-Mobo:
What would be the next step up in quality from the one you recommended, and will it be better than what I need? What about the P45 or X38 chipsets?

 

[tiraides]

MEMORY: The Crucial Ballistix is a good choice, but $19 seems almost too low for that particular model. Is that the after-rebate price? For your needs, 4GB is more than enough memory. Dual channel is preferred because RAM works best in matching pairs -- ideally with identical models. Oftentimes, the dual channel kits are cheaper than buying each stick individually.

VIDEO CARD: Since you want to power up a large monitor, I recommend keeping the Diamond HD4650. However, Diamond is one of the lower-tier manufacturers, quality-wise; and VisionTek is the only AMD/ATI-based manufacturer that offers limited lifetime warranties on its video cards. (Reportedly, it also has some of the best customer service out the AMD/ATI-based manufacturers.) I suggest choosing between the Diamond HD4650 and the VisionTek 1GB HD3650.

HARD DRIVE: Good idea.

SOUND CARD: I haven't kept up on sound cards lately, but you may want to wait until after you get everything else before you choose a sound card. For the time being, however, perform more research on the different available models -- by the time you've made your decision, you may find a good deal on one of them.

PROCESSOR: Choose either the Q6600 or the Q9550. Either one would work for this build. (The Q6700 is only the Q6600 bumped up a little higher, and the Q9400 is a crippled version of the EOL Q9450.) Compared to your old/current system, you couldn't tell the difference between the Q6600 or the Q9550 in the real-life tasks that you would do -- they would both outperform your old/current setup. If you want peace of mind for the next 3-5 years, go with the Q9550; but the Q6600 would be more than enough for your needs. Worry about Core i7, DDR3, and whatever else is available when you decide to build your next system.

MOTHERBOARD: P45 and X38 are not needed because you don't need their primary feature: dual video card CrossFire support. CrossFire would only benefit you if you planned on gaming at a 1920x1200 or greater resolution, as there wouldn't be a single card capable of high visual settings at those resolutions. I haven't heard of any inexpensive (under $100) P45 microATX boards, and the ones based on the G43/G45 chipsets (the P43/P45 with an onboard GPU) have had many problems. The Asus P5x series motherboards are some of the best Intel boards around for microATX setups; I suggest you stick with the board that I recommended.

 

[AVT]

Hi AVT, sorry I missed your post when I was looking through it yesterday (I could have sworn it wasn't there earlier, but I guess I scrolled down too quickly).

I guess x38/x48 might be overkill since I'm not a gamer, but since I'm very picky about movie picture quality, I was thinking it would be appropriate (I'm probably wrong). Will I get HD quality movie graphics from P35? What about the P45 or G45 in terms of HD quality movies?

1. What do you think about dropping the wireless card and using one of those USB wireless receivers?

3. So I tried searching for what an external DAC is and I saw some pages debating between that and soundcards. But I don't understand what a DAC is and what it'll do when it replaces the sound card.

P35/X38/X48 do absolutely nothing to image quality - they do NOT have onboard video. You need to use them with a video card.

1) It's possible. I recently built someone a integrated graphics PC with an ASRock bundled wireless card, which actually connects using internal USB. That card's worked fairly well. Personally, I'd want my networking to not be on USB, though. If you really need both wifi and sound, I'd probably go with an AMD/nVidia Shuttle. That would, IIRC, offer both integrated video suitable for HD video and two expansion slots. Or, if physical size is not a big issue, go with something bigger than a Shuttle.

3) DAC stands for digital-analog converter. From what I've read over at the audio forum, they tend to give you better quality audio than onboard sound. I don't use one myself, though, so I suggest you ask at the [H] audio forum about everything you'd need to know before going that direction.

 

[courtney01]

CPU: So if I'm planning on maintaining this build for at least 4-5 years, then I should just go with the Q9550? I'm wondering which would be the best bang for my buck.

Power Supply:
The one you suggested is a bit too expensive for me, so I might just go with one that's around $60 and about 500 watts. What factors should I be considering when buying a power supply?

Cost:
I made some calculations, and at worst my build will be around $1000-1200, and at best it will be around $800-$900. What's going to push it to the more expensive range is going to be the monitor, CPU, and graphics/sound card choices.

 

[Dangman]

RAM: Did you already get the rebate? As long as you have two or four sticks of RAM, don't worry about dual-cbannel

CPU: Your best bang for the buck would be to get the cheapest Intel quad-core now, the Q6600, and upgrade to a i7/DDR3 RAm system in 2-3 years. Getting the Q9550 won't make your system last that much longer than the Q6600. I'd say six extra months at the most with the Q9550. So go with the Q6600.

PSU: Read this PSU FAQ:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1036

However, your $1000 budget is more then enough to fit in the Silverstone ST70F Modular PSU. Since this is a SFF build, I highly recommend getting a modular PSU to cut down on cable mess. Right now the ST70F is the best deal now for a quality modular PSU that has room for future expansion/upgrades/

 

[courtney01]

RAM: Did you already get the rebate? As long as you have two or four sticks of RAM, don't worry about dual-cbannel

I still have to mail it in. I started to think about using 3 sticks of 2GB ram.

CPU: Your best bang for the buck would be to get the cheapest Intel quad-core now, the Q6600, and upgrade to a i7/DDR3 RAm system in 2-3 years. Getting the Q9550 won't make your system last that much longer than the Q6600. I'd say six extra months at the most with the Q9550. So go with the Q6600.

Ok, I'll go with the 6600. The only thing that is the large difference between 2.4GHz and 2.83GHz, and their FSB. Is the GHz speed noticeable, and is the 1333Mhz FSB better for my RAM than 1066Mhz?

When I upgrade to i7's in a few years, I know I'll have to change my RAM and Mobo, but can I keep everything else that I'm putting into this build?

PSU: Read this PSU FAQ:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1036

However, your $1000 budget is more then enough to fit in the Silverstone ST70F Modular PSU. Since this is a SFF build, I highly recommend getting a modular PSU to cut down on cable mess. Right now the ST70F is the best deal now for a quality modular PSU that has room for future expansion/upgrades/

I'll read the link.

 

[Dangman]

I still have to mail it in. I started to think about maybe using 3 sticks of 2GB ram (I'm going to use the remaining stick in another, less robust build for someone else). Is using 6GB RAM awkward in a system?

No and do note that when using 3 sticks of RAM, you lose dual channel. However dual-channel has a very small effect on performance, no more than 5% IIRC.

Ok, I'll probably go with the 6600. The only thing that worried me initially is the large(?) difference between 2.4GHz and 2.83GHz, and their FSB. Is the GHz speed noticeable, and is the 1333Mhz FSB better for my RAM than 1066Mhz, or is that negligible too?

Clock speed isn't the difference between the Q9550 and Q6600 (which BTW the clock speed difference is very small). The Q9550 has a larger L2 cache (6MB VS 4MB for the Q6600) and is based on the 45nm Yorkfield core where as the Q6600 is based off the older 65nm Kentfield core. At most the Q9500 is roughly 10 to 15% faster than the Q6600 depending on the application

 

[courtney01]

P35/X38/X48 do absolutely nothing to image quality - they do NOT have onboard video. You need to use them with a video card.

I'm going to go with the G35.

1) It's possible. I recently built someone a integrated graphics PC with an ASRock bundled wireless card, which actually connects using internal USB. That card's worked fairly well. Personally, I'd want my networking to not be on USB, though. If you really need both wifi and sound, I'd probably go with an AMD/nVidia Shuttle. That would, IIRC, offer both integrated video suitable for HD video and two expansion slots. Or, if physical size is not a big issue, go with something bigger than a Shuttle.

Why don't you prefer to network via USB. What compromises will I be making when I don't do an internal card.

Do I need to buy something to connect an ethernet cable to this computer?

3) DAC stands for digital-analog converter. From what I've read over at the audio forum, they tend to give you better quality audio than onboard sound. I don't use one myself, though, so I suggest you ask at the [H] audio forum about everything you'd need to know before going that direction.

I'll check that out.

 

[courtney01]

No and do note that when using 3 sticks of RAM, you lose dual channel. However dual-channel has a very small effect on performance, no more than 5% IIRC.

I see. But I didn't have dual channel to start off with, right? So it won't be an issue?

Clock speed isn't the difference between the Q9550 and Q6600 (which BTW the clock speed difference is very small). The Q9550 has a larger L2 cache (6MB VS 4MB for the Q6600) and is based on the 45nm Yorkfield core where as the Q6600 is based off the older 65nm Kentfield core. At most the Q9500 is roughly 10 to 15% faster than the Q6600 depending on the application

I made a mistake. I misread the chart on wikipedia's Core 2 list article. Since I now know that the Ghz difference isn't that much, what I meant to say is that I was initially worried about the big L2 cache difference and the FSB difference. So would you say the L2 and FSB difference are also negligible here?

How is the performance of my RAM choice related with the L2 or FSB here? I read somewhere about how RAM downgrades according to something on the CPU.

What's the benefit of using 45nm over 65nm, and is that benefit something that will noticeably affect my performance? I remember when I was narrowing down my CPU choices, I eliminated the Q6x00 chips because they were 65nm.

 

[Dangman]

I see. But I didn't have dual channel to start off with, right? So it won't be an issue?

They were the same set of RAM, correct? Then you had dual-channel.

I made a mistake. I misread the chart on wikipedia's Core 2 list article. Since I now know that the Ghz difference isn't that much, what I meant to say is that I was initially worried about the big L2 cache difference and the FSB difference. So would you say the L2 and FSB difference are also negligible here?

The FSB difference is very negligible and the L2 difference has a bit of variance.

How is the performance of my RAM choice related with the L2 or FSB here? I read somewhere about how RAM downgrades according to something on the CPU.

See if you can understand this math:
Stated FSB/4 = Actual FSB
Actual FSB x 4 = Stated FSB
Multiplier x Actual FSB = CPU Speed
1:1 Ratio: 2 x Actual FSB = RAM Speed
1:1 Ratio: FSB = 1/2 RAM speed
Note that C2D systems don't see a performance increase with any ratio higher than 1:1

Q6600:
Multi x Actual FSB, Stated FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
9 x 266Mhz, 1066Mhz, DDR2 533 RAM = 2.4Ghz <== Stock Speeds
9 x 333Mhz, 1333Mhz, DDR2 667 RAM = 3.0Ghz <== Good OC
9 x 400Mhz, 1600Mhz, DDR2 800 RAM = 3.6Ghz <== Excellent OC, About the Max

Q9550:
Multi x Actual FSB, Stated FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
8.5 × 333Mhz, 1333Mhz, DDR2-667 = 2.83Ghz <<== Stock speeds
8.5 × 400Mhz, 1600Mhz, DDR2-800 = 3.40Ghz <<== Easy OC
8.5 × 450Mhz, 1800Mhz, DDR2-900 = 3.82Ghz <<== Good OC
8.5 × 500Mhz, 2000Mhz, DDR2-1000 = 4.25Ghz<<== If you're lucky

From the math above, for stock and as well as a bit of overclocking, DDR2 800 RAM is more than enough. If you keep the FSB and DRAM at a 1:1 ratio, you'll get optimal performance.

What's the benefit of using 45nm over 65nm, and is that benefit something that will noticeably affect my performance? I remember when I was narrowing down my CPU choices, I eliminated the Q6x00 chips because they were 65nm.

Like I said earlier, the 2.83Ghz Q9550, a 45nm Yorkfield based CPU with a 6MB L2 cache was about 10-15% faster than the 2.66Ghz Q6600, a 45nm Kentsfield based CPu with a 4MB L2 cache. In addition, the 45nm quad-cores do uses a bit less power than 65nm quad-cores. But that really doesn't affect performance.

Figure out for yourself if a 10% to 15% performance increase justifies an extra $130.

 

[courtney01]

1:1 Ratio: 2 x Actual FSB = RAM Speed
1:1 Ratio: FSB = 1/2 RAM speed

Since my RAM speed is 800 and 6600's actual FSB is 266, my ratio is either actualFSB:RAM=0.665 or RAM:actualFSB=1.5. Which one is the normal convention?

Q6600:
Multi x Actual FSB, Stated FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
9 x 266Mhz, 1066Mhz, DDR2 533 RAM = 2.4Ghz <== Stock Speeds
9 x 333Mhz, 1333Mhz, DDR2 667 RAM = 3.0Ghz <== Good OC
9 x 400Mhz, 1600Mhz, DDR2 800 RAM = 3.6Ghz <== Excellent OC, About the Max

Q9550:
Multi x Actual FSB, Stated FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
8.5 × 333Mhz, 1333Mhz, DDR2-667 = 2.83Ghz <<== Stock speeds
8.5 × 400Mhz, 1600Mhz, DDR2-800 = 3.40Ghz <<== Easy OC
8.5 × 450Mhz, 1800Mhz, DDR2-900 = 3.82Ghz <<== Good OC
8.5 × 500Mhz, 2000Mhz, DDR2-1000 = 4.25Ghz<<== If you're lucky

From the math above, for stock and as well as a bit of overclocking, DDR2 800 RAM is more than enough. If you keep the FSB and DRAM at a 1:1 ratio, you'll get optimal performance.

From my calculation my ratio isn't 1:1, so what should I do?

 

[Freezebyte]

Lol, i'll stay outa this as Danny will take good care of you as he did me.

 

[courtney01]

Lol, i'll stay outa this as Danny will take good care of you as he did me.

I am so thankful for everyone's advice so far. I would be completely lost without tiraides, you, AVT, and danny. I really appreciate all your help!

 

[Freezebyte]

I am so thankful for everyone's advice so far. I would be completely lost without tiraides, you, AVT, and danny. I really appreciate all your help!

Welcome, I think to make it easier for you for the time being, don't worry about overlocking specifics. Build your machine and get it working first then worry about the OC details.

 

[Dangman]

Since my RAM speed is 800 and 6600's actual FSB is 266, my ratio is either actualFSB:RAM=0.665 or RAM:actualFSB=1.5. Which one is the normal convention?

From my calculation my ratio isn't 1:1, so what should I do?

Your ratio would be 133:200 which would be 0.665. Well as long as your RAM is a bit faster than your FSB and not vice versa, you really don't have to worry about your ratio, until you start overclocking. You won't see a performance decrease or increase with your ratio at 133:200, 2:3, or 3:4.

 

[courtney01]

Welcome, I think to make it easier for you for the time being, don't worry about overlocking specifics. Build your machine and get it working first then worry about the OC details.

Ok.

 

[courtney01]

Sound card: I'm going to decide on this later after I build.

Video card:
Does anyone else have better options ($60-$80 range).

 

[Dangman]

None of those cards are particularly good choices considering their before rebate prices. I recommend this card in the $80 range:
XFX PVT96OSDFH 9600GO 768MB PCI-E Video Card - $80

However, again your $1000 budget does allow for a much faster video card for gaming. In fact Tiraides proved this several posts ago when he listed a very nice $890 rig. Since you're going with the Q6600, that shaves off $110 (Vista has gone up $20 since that build post) and it would be down to $780, well under your $1000 budget.

 

[courtney01]

None of those cards are particularly good choices considering their before rebate prices. I recommend this card in the $80 range:
XFX PVT96OSDFH 9600GO 768MB PCI-E Video Card - $80

Just want to understand: why would this be better than, say, #3, which has a similar before-rebate-price and is also 1GB?

However, again your $1000 budget does allow for a much faster video card for gaming. In fact Tiraides proved this several posts ago when he listed a very nice $890 rig. Since you're going with the Q6600, that shaves off $110 (Vista has gone up $20 since that build post) and it would be down to $780, well under your $1000 budget.

I'm trying to save money wherever I can.

But if I do loosen the restriction, how about a video card that's $100 (after rebate)? And would this give a noticeable/significant improvement over the one you recommended above?

 

[Freezebyte]

This would be my recommendation in that price range and will spank that 9600. And yes, you can reuse the Audigy card just fine, im still running a Audigy 2 with 64bit Vista with no probs. I would personally just go with 4gigs on 2 sticks to make it easier and have dual channel at the same time. Just keep in mind Windows will only see 3.5gig but other programs will utilize it if needs be

Sapphire 4830
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102803

G.Skill 4gig DDR2 800. Great stuff, recommended by Danny
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231122

 

[Dangman]

Just want to understand: why would this be better than, say, #3, which has a similar before-rebate-price and is also 1GB?

That's 1GB of slow GDDR2 VRAM whereas the 9600GSO has 768MB of fast GDDR3 VRAM. In addition, the 9600GSO has a slightly bigger bus width of 192bit compared to the 128bit of the HD4670. All these factors make the 9600GSO a much faster video card than the HD4650.

But if I do loosen the restriction, how about a video card that's $100 (after rebate)? And would this give a noticeable/significant improvement over the one you recommended above?

I don't factor in rebates until that rebate check is in my or your hands. Rebates can still be lost, rejected, or outright ignored.

Anyway for $150, I recommend this card:
Sapphire 100245L Radeon HD 4850 512MB PCI-E Video Card - $150

And yes the HD4850 is a significant improvement over the 9600GSO 768MB

 

[Freezebyte]

Also, when I upgrade to i7's in a few years, I know I'll have to change my RAM and Mobo, but can I keep everything else that I'm putting into this build, or will those be need to be replaced too?

You will have to replace CPU, mobo and RAM, everything else is reusable unless PSU cable specs change, which I doubt

 

[courtney01]

I would personally just go with 4gigs on 2 sticks to make it easier and have dual channel at the same time. Just keep in mind Windows will only see 3.5gig but other programs will utilize it if needs be

So you're saying that 2 sticks with dual channel is comparable with 3 sticks without dual channel?

Sapphire 4830
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102803

I'm liking this price better than the $150 Sapphire HD4850. Hmm, is there a good card for about $90?

G.Skill 4gig DDR2 800. Great stuff, recommended by Danny
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231122

Do you recommend I return my crucial sticks for these?

 

[Freezebyte]

So you're saying that 2 sticks with dual channel is comparable with 3 sticks without dual channel?

I'm just thinking that its not really cost effective to do 3 seperate sticks of RAM while you can get a paired 4gig set AND have your dual channel which does help depending on the application.

I'm liking this price better than the $150 Sapphire HD4850. Hmm, is there a good card for about $90?

If your not gaming, then I honestly don't see the point in spending more then $50 for a card

Do you recommend I return my crucial sticks for these?

If you already bought the RAM, don't bother.

 

[courtney01]

I'm just thinking that its not really cost effective to do 3 seperate sticks of RAM while you can get a paired 4gig set AND have your dual channel which does help depending on the application.

I got 2 sets of 2 2GB kits, each set for $20. I was thinking about using 3 sticks for myself, and letting my friend use the remaining 1. (Or maybe I could use all 4! )

If your not gaming, then I honestly don't see the point in spending more then $50 for a card

Yeah, I'll be rarely gaming. I wanted to get a good card because I thought that was what I needed to get a really good HD quality movie watching experience. Do you think I can get that from any one of the cards from my original list (which one would be best?) or the XFX 9600GO?

 

[Freezebyte]

I got 2 sets of 2 2GB kits, each set for $20. I was thinking about using 3 sticks for myself, and letting my friend use the remaining 1. (Or maybe I could use all 4! )

Just keep in mind using 4 sticks of RAM usually causes overclocking problems down the road. FYI

Yeah, I'll be rarely gaming. I wanted to get a good card because I thought that was what I needed to get a really good HD quality movie watching experience. Do you think I can get that from any one of the cards from my original list (which one would be best?) or the XFX 9600GO?

Any of those would be fine, HD content streaming is not going to strain any of those cards. I would look in the HTPC section and see what peeps recommend for quality HD video cards as they are not created equal. It depends on how "anal" you are about image quality.